~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Not the handful of undercover d20 Modern fans that REALLY want to play d20 Modern horror NOT Ravenloft.
This is just begging for trouble...
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Where are the TRUE RL fans...?
THANK YOU SHOESHINE YOU'RE HUMBLE AND LOVABLE
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Where is the 2E feel to RL(This edition had the most fluff and resources for RL. 3E mechanics are GOOD but the feel is gone.) ? Why did they place Azrael in the Secrets of the Dread Realms book JUST to say later that he was not the TRUE darklord(No consistency.) ? Where are the wonderful novels that used to be published for the RL setting(The novels were great.) ? Where are the TRUE RL fans(Not the handful of undercover d20 Modern fans that REALLY want to play d20 Modern horror NOT Ravenloft.) ?
~~~
We all left with the Kargatane.
Man White Wolf blew that one big.
Don't start THIS debate again...
MSD
(representing the Ebon Gargoyles)
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
(representing the Ebon Gargoyles)
Oh come on you KNOW you want it! Sounds like you want to get right back "on the tip."
:D
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Where is the 2E feel to RL(This edition had the most fluff and resources for RL. 3E mechanics are GOOD but the feel is gone.) ? Why did they place Azrael in the Secrets of the Dread Realms book JUST to say later that he was not the TRUE darklord(No consistency.) ? Where are the wonderful novels that used to be published for the RL setting(The novels were great.) ? Where are the TRUE RL fans(Not the handful of undercover d20 Modern fans that REALLY want to play d20 Modern horror NOT Ravenloft.) ?
What exactly do you mean "2E feel"? Do you mean the Fantasy Horror of Domains of Dread or the atmospheric dungeon crawls of the early adventures? Or the lack of description and emphasis on anything but the Darklords?
Azrael was in presumably because the book was hastaly made on a schedual and his stats were already available for 2E and required little modification where as Inza was a unique creature with new and unussual abilities that would have taken far longer to craft. Plus the character that players are most likely to encounter in Sithicus would have been the blatant ruler and presumed DL (Azrael) and not the secretive shadow lady.
White Wolf did not pick up a licence for producing Ravenloft novels and is unwilling to publish any.
I haven't seen many people who want to entirely turn the game into d20 Modern, although there are a few curious to update it to see what happens.
Most just like the more advanced feel to Domains and lands to make it more in tune with the Gothic atmosphere that started the game and has been around since Masque of the Red Death.
I've been into Ravenloft since 1993, does that not make me a "true Ravenloft fan"?
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
Heh, heh, heh.
:D
[b]Where is the 2E feel to RL(This edition had the most fluff and resources for RL. 3E mechanics are GOOD but the feel is gone.)
Well 2E lasted more time than 3/3.5 E so for the ressource just wait a bit. But I think the ressource in 3E are of higher quality than in 2E, the gazeeters are all great, also van richten guide to the wlaking dead is far better than the old 2E guide. And Van richten arsenal bring all the best prestige class and other cool stuff.
I dont know what the 2E feel is because I never played 2E ravenloft, but I know the rule for 3E are better, more simple,more logical and allow for more option.
? Why did they place Azrael in the Secrets of the Dread Realms book JUST to say later that he was not the TRUE darklord(No consistency.)
I dont know I am not the writer of secret of the dread realm but I guess its because they released the book really quick and thye changed their mind after. And its not like consistency have been a tradition in ravenloft. In fact inconsistency is tradition in the dread realm, so be happy
it bring back 2E edition atmosphere!? Where are the wonderful novels that used to be published for the RL setting(The novels were great.)
LOL nice joke the novel sucked, instead of reading ****** tsr novel who read more as an infopub I prefer to read true novel. Old horror novel act as a better source for inspiration than these novel anywya.
? Where are the TRUE RL fans(Not the handful of undercover d20 Modern fans that REALLY want to play d20 Modern horror NOT Ravenloft.) ?
heu.... I dont like d20 modern, yeah there have been some proposiiton of making an alternate dread realm in a modern setting wich might be interesting, but I am a fan of fantasy/horror.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Where is the 2E feel to RL(This edition had the most fluff and resources for RL. 3E mechanics are GOOD but the feel is gone.) ? Why did they place Azrael in the Secrets of the Dread Realms book JUST to say later that he was not the TRUE darklord(No consistency.) ? Where are the wonderful novels that used to be published for the RL setting(The novels were great.) ? Where are the TRUE RL fans(Not the handful of undercover d20 Modern fans that REALLY want to play d20 Modern horror NOT Ravenloft.) ?
~~~
Whoa, there tex! Damage control time. First of all, don't worry. Ravenloft is not run by "undercover d20 Modern fans that REALLY want to play d20 Modern horror." That is simply not the case. I think you over-interpreted my comments.
Do I like the d20 Modern system? Sure. But Ravenloft is my first and true love.I would say at least the same for most of the other writers for the line. As for my comments about our d20 Modern game home - we just got through with a year long Ravenloft campaign. We needed a break.
Now, about the "feel" that you're talking about:
1) Azrael was never intended to be the true darklord from the very beginning. That much is pretty clear. Read the entry on Azrael in theSecret of the Dread Realms under "current sketch." It tells you from the outset the identity of the true Darklord of the Sithicus. So your percieved inconsistency does not exist there.
2) If you're complaining about other aspects of the new system...that's totally fine. Taste is subjective, and we don't have any control over that. If our vision of Ravenloft doesn't match yours - by all means tell us why. Don't just say it sucks. That neither challenges the designers to improve or convinces us to change.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Where is the 2E feel to RL?
Probably gone to the same place as AD&D 2E. If 3E felt like 2E, it would be a bit weird.
Why did they place Azrael in the Secrets of the Dread Realms book JUST to say later that he was not the TRUE darklord(No consistency.) ?
Didn't Azrael's SotDR entry already mention that he wasn't the true darklord? If so, how is it being inconsistent? He still has a place in the book, I mean, the fact that he actually isn't a darklord has to be a major secret in the dread realms, I'd imagine...;)
Where are the wonderful novels that used to be published for the RL setting?
You must've imagined those. There were never any "wonderful" Ravenloft novels! (Oooh, I'm in trouble now...)
Where are the TRUE RL fans(Not the handful of undercover d20 Modern fans that REALLY want to play d20 Modern horror NOT Ravenloft.) ?
~~~
I'm a fan of the original I6 "Ravenloft" (and I10 "Ravenloft II, the House on Gryphon Hill") above everything else ever published on the setting. Does that make me the "TRUEST" fan?
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Where are the TRUE RL fans(Not the handful of undercover d20 Modern fans that REALLY want to play d20 Modern horror NOT Ravenloft.) ?
Alexander Pope once said "Conversation is a place where one plays with ideas." That's what I thought these messageboards were for; to come up with ideas and concepts and share them around. I don't see how wanting to mix d20 Modern with Ravenloft (if, indeed, that is what anyone is doing...?) means that a person still doesn't love old, 'pure' Ravenloft.
The reason I play D&D is to escape fascist reality....
Originally posted by d20 Modern Elvis
We all left with the Kargatane.
Man White Wolf blew that one big.
LoL!
~~~
2E RL had the flavor(Although THACO was not all that.), 3E RL has the mechanics(But most of the books are EMPTY and MOST RL DMs draw on the 2E era for their flavor[modules, sourcebooks, etc.]. The Gazettes are only 4 books.), v.3.5 is garbage(Whenever people said that the v.3.5 RL PHB was horrible the writers made the statement that the rule was OPTIONAL or that THEY did not write it personally.
).~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
[b]3E RL(Especially v.3.5) is full of a bunch of USELESS optional mechanics for the game. The flavor of RL is gone.
Not at all what most fans think. You're quite alone in this.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Each and every one of the wonderful tales that MSD spins for the Ravenloft fans are CONVERTED 2E modules.
Ah, OK. I see where this come from and where it is going.
Joël
Fact 1: We all like playing RV.
Fact 2: 2nd Ed has the most resources
Fact 3: 3rd Ed is easier to use
Fact 4: 3.5 Ed is.... has.... well, I can't tell...
~~~
Now, look at the actual results of the poll 'Which edition of Ravenloft do YOU enjoy playing with?', you'll see 3e and 3.5 combined has 78% of the votes, leaving 22% only for 2nd edition.
So, the vast majority enjoys 3e. Also, if you read the comments from those who plays 2e, that 22% plays 2e because their group haven't switched to 3e D&D rules, and not because they don't like Ravenloft in 3e.
---
> Fact 2: 2nd Ed has the most resources
Dah ... Of course, RL 2e has been produced over a 10 years period...
---
My point didn't change: you are nearly alone in thinking 3e is 'full of USELESS rules'.
Joël
Originally posted by Gotten
If you are to quote our boards, do it correctly - do not quote one post to illustrate the results, that's demagogy.
Now, look at the actual results of the poll 'Which edition of Ravenloft do YOU enjoy playing with?', you'll see 3e and 3.5 combined has 78% of the votes, leaving 22% only for 2nd edition.
So, the vast majority enjoys 3e. Also, if you read the comments from those who plays 2e, that 22% plays 2e because their group haven't switched to 3e D&D rules, and not because they don't like Ravenloft in 3e.
---
> Fact 2: 2nd Ed has the most resources
Dah ... Of course, RL has been produced over a 10 years period...
---
My point didn't change: you are nearly alone in thinking 3e is 'full of USELESS rules'.
Joël
A re-post word-for-word:
From the FoS poll(>>>>Although NOT a definitive OFFICIAL source<<<<. The HURTING RL v.3.5 sales speak louder than a fan site.):
ALSO, Remember this ? :
Originally posted by Gotten
From your tone, I'm not at all tempted to debate this with you.
;)
~~~
This is getting ridiculous. This is perhaps the most ridicockolous thread in the history of most ridicokolous threads. While I appreciate the kind words you've posted elsewhere, I DON'T appreciate words being forced into my mouth.
You referenced my "former 2E thorobred" quote - neglecting the most important part: FORMER. I hafta give props to 2E cuz it put me onto the Game, but how many times have I said 3E is waaaaaay better? Whether it's 3.0 or 3.5 bottom line it's WAAAAY better than 2E. I've said it before and I'll say it a million times again. 3E is the BEST.
Yes I'm recapping 2E Ravenloft adventures right now. Why? Not because I think it's "better" than the stuff they got now. Not because I only play 2E or I'm trying to diss the new stuff. I do it because:
From my Retrospective
"On another tangent, I KNOW some of y’all are wondering why MSD is stuck in the past. WHY the hell is he running a grand conjunction campaign in 736? Close to TWENTY YEARS from the current day timeline.
Well I know, and YOU know the secrets and history of Ravenloft. But my players do NOT. For all intents and purposes they are complete virgins to the genre. And seeing as how I have EVERY DAMN 2E Ravenloft supplement EVER made, it would just be such a waste if I didn’t use them. Ya feel me?
I didn’t want to drop the players in the middle of the story and say “all this stuff happened before you”. I want to actually SHOW them the stuff that happened before.
The Grand Conjunction.
The Grim Harvest.
The Death of Rudolph van Richten.
The list goes on and on!
These are seminal events that I want the players to FEEL. I don’t want to just throw a book in front of them and say “this is written by a deceased monster hunter named Rudolph”. If I did that, it would mean NOTHING to them. I want them to KNOW Doctor van Richten. So therefore, I’m starting at the beginning of the official Ravenloft saga (735 by Black Box standards). NOW do ya feel me? Let’s continue…"
In conclusion, I wholeheartedly endorse this event or product.
And I don't wanna step on your toes Mr. Lilivivat, but I do believe homeboy was referencing me with those remarks. So I get comments from the face but slaps from the backhand. Yeah, I love Ravenloft. I sweat 3.5 and d20 Modern is the absolute izh, kid. So what?
Look, I've been burned before by mistaken identity so I'll state it clearly one last time - I go my own way. I'm not related or connected in any way to any of the posters on this or any other board unless I have revealed said affiliation myself. The thoughts, comments and quotes provided here by the OTHER posters reflect the OTHER posters points of views. They don't reflect the thoughts or opinions of THIS poster right here. I don't appreciate words being put into my mouth or assumptions being drawn that I am associated with anybody or anything outside of my circle.
The issue here is some kind of fabricated debate between the merits of 2E RL vs. 3E RL. But in reality there is no debate. The answer is simply "to each his own". Perhaps if you'd like to encourage a healthy debate or discussion ("which is the point of a messageboard) then you should rephrase your statements just a tiny bit. You're inflammatory tone is detrimental to a conducive discussion.
In closing I'd just like to say
RAVENLOFT FOR LIFE, SUCKERS
[end transmission]
MSD
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
Boo! Boo! Down in front! :headexplo
This is getting ridiculous. This is perhaps the most ridicockolous thread in the history of most ridicokolous threads. While I appreciate the kind words you've posted elsewhere, I DON'T appreciate words being forced into my mouth.
You referenced my "former 2E thorobred" quote - neglecting the most important part: FORMER. I hafta give props to 2E cuz it put me onto the Game, but how many times have I said 3E is waaaaaay better? Whether it's 3.0 or 3.5 bottom line it's WAAAAY better than 2E. I've said it before and I'll say it a million times again. 3E is the BEST.
Yes I'm recapping 2E Ravenloft adventures right now. Why? Not because I think it's "better" than the stuff they got now. Not because I only play 2E or I'm trying to diss the new stuff. I do it because:
From my Retrospective
"On another tangent, I KNOW some of y’all are wondering why MSD is stuck in the past. WHY the hell is he running a grand conjunction campaign in 736? Close to TWENTY YEARS from the current day timeline.
Well I know, and YOU know the secrets and history of Ravenloft. But my players do NOT. For all intents and purposes they are complete virgins to the genre. And seeing as how I have EVERY DAMN 2E Ravenloft supplement EVER made, it would just be such a waste if I didn’t use them. Ya feel me?
I didn’t want to drop the players in the middle of the story and say “all this stuff happened before you”. I want to actually SHOW them the stuff that happened before.
The Grand Conjunction.
The Grim Harvest.
The Death of Rudolph van Richten.
The list goes on and on!
These are seminal events that I want the players to FEEL. I don’t want to just throw a book in front of them and say “this is written by a deceased monster hunter named Rudolph”. If I did that, it would mean NOTHING to them. I want them to KNOW Doctor van Richten. So therefore, I’m starting at the beginning of the official Ravenloft saga (735 by Black Box standards). NOW do ya feel me? Let’s continue…"
In conclusion, I wholeheartedly endorse this event or product.
And I don't wanna step on your toes Mr. Lilivivat, but I do believe homeboy was referencing me with those remarks. So I get comments from the face but slaps from the backhand. Yeah, I love Ravenloft. I sweat 3.5 and d20 Modern is the absolute izh, kid. So what?
Look, I've been burned before by mistaken identity so I'll state it clearly one last time - I go my own way. I'm not related or connected in any way to any of the posters on this or any other board unless I have revealed said affiliation myself. The thoughts, comments and quotes provided here by the OTHER posters reflect the OTHER posters points of views. They don't reflect the thoughts or opinions of THIS poster right here. I don't appreciate words being put into my mouth or assumptions being drawn that I am associated with anybody or anything outside of my circle.
The issue here is some kind of fabricated debate between the merits of 2E RL vs. 3E RL. But in reality there is no debate. The answer is simply "to each his own". Perhaps if you'd like to encourage a healthy debate or discussion ("which is the point of a messageboard) then you should rephrase your statements just a tiny bit. You're inflammatory tone is detrimental to a conducive discussion.
In closing I'd just like to say
RAVENLOFT FOR LIFE, SUCKERS
[end transmission]
MSD
A re-post for the blind:
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I firmly stand by my position that the REASON MSD is SO good at what he does, with RL, is because he is a former 2E thorough-bred. 2E MADE RL.
Notice the words: my position not your position. Anyone whom would construe said position as being your own rather than my own after clearly seeing the words, reiterating , my position written in said statement is well.................. let's just let that one ride.
The rest of the storybook written above is window dressing and thus DOES NOT require my attention.
~~~
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
RAVENLOFT FOR LIFE, SUCKERS
VIVA LAS RAVENLOFT, LITTLE DARLIN'S!
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
3E RL(Speaking of v.3.5) is full of a bunch of USELESS optional mechanics for the game. The flavor of RL is gone.
The RLPHB did include mechanics that I would never use. Primarily the weakness listed for the classes. The magic rating system is an interesting idea but the mechanic is too complicated. I may experiment with it to simplify and give it a test run. The monster hunter class requires way too many ranks in Knowledge(The Planes) but that is easily fixed. The class itself is not too bad and the specializations are interesting.
Each and every one of the wonderful tales that MSD spins for the Ravenloft fans are CONVERTED 2E modules. I firmly stand by my position that the REASON MSD is SO good at what he does, with RL, is because he is a former 2E thorough-bred. 2E MADE RL.
2E RL had the flavor(Although THACO was not all that.), 3E RL has the mechanics(But most of the books are EMPTY and MOST RL DMs draw on the 2E era for their flavor[modules, sourcebooks, etc.]. The Gazettes are only 4 books.), v.3.5 is garbage(Whenever people said that the v.3.5 RL PHB was horrible the writers made the statement that the rule was OPTIONAL or that THEY did not write it personally.
~~~ [/b]
Ravenloft has been my favorate setting for the past eleven years and I own all the novels and game books. From what you are saying here it seems your primary complaint is with the RLPHB, possibly adding CoD and HoL in there. I am not a fan of the Noteriety/Fame mechanics and Blessed/levels of virtue idea but some may be. At any rate, easily worked around. The Gazetteers have been a wonderful addition to the setting. The details on Borca in Gaz4 have inspired me to attempt to open an online chat game set in Levkarest. Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead has given me so many ideas to use and I look forward to playing around with Toben the Many. The RLDMG actually has many good pointers on getting the right feel in Ravenloft.
There are going to be authors at some point who will be writing for the setting and may not know as much about it as we would like. So take what you do like from their additions and leave what you don't. I am still happy to see the new information on the setting even with a minor dissapointment here and there.
They flavor in 3.X was great in: The Ravenloft Campaign Setting, the RL DMG, Van Rictens Guide to the Walking Dead, Van Richten's Arsenal, all four of the Gazateers I've read (number five to be devoured soon).
I didn't like Champions of Darkness and didn't buy the RL PHB. Heros of light was middling.
By my reckoning that makes the ration of things that made me salivate to things that made me regret opening my wallet 4:1 (with Heroes left out). That's as good or better than any other company prodcuing a line of material.
-Eric Gorman
1. Right from the outset, we knew that at best we only had room for one or the other.
2. 2E stats existed for both Inza and Azrael, but we wanted to modify Inza quite a bit to reflect her new state as a darklord, and collaborating with Jim Lowder to determine the specifics of those changes would have taken more time than we really had. Azrael, on the other hand, was really just grown a few years older since the events of SotBR.
3. At the time, Inza was gathering power deep in the earth, as the domain subtly adapted to its new lord above her. She was very behind-the-scenes. Azrael, meanwhile, was and is an extremely active (ever hyperactive) villain. Of the two villains, folk in Sithicus were much more likely to encounter Azrael, so he was deemed higher priority.
And no, Azrael was never intended to be the darklord[1]. That he was labeled as such next to his name was an error that slipped in sometime after the book left our hands.
[1] At least, not officially. Way back when TSR made the decision to send Soth back to Dragonlance, Stu and I submitted an adventure proposal that I believe did end with Azrael as our first pick for darklord. That proposal was unused, obviously, but many of its ideas -- such as casting Azrael as Iago to Soth's Othello -- ended up being quite compatible with SotBR.
Furthermore, 3+E has a *lot* of new storyline/campaign material...but nearly all of it is for the FRCS. Forgotten Realms is the new stuff for most of the 3E people, whereas Ravenloft was only recently converted to 3E, and hence to 3.5 quite a bit after most of the other older campaign settings. Therefore, it's going to take a while to produce new material and campaigns, and Ravenloft is especially difficult to do so for because of one simple fact:
Ravenloft must be horrifying. New content for Forgotten Realms can be fantastic, amusing, scary, or just downright orc-smashingly fun, but new content for Ravenloft is harder to develop because it not only has to be good, it has to scare you, and scare you well.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
(Not the handful of undercover d20 Modern fans that REALLY want to play d20 Modern horror NOT Ravenloft.) ? ~~~ [/b]
WHAT?!?