I don't actually want this thread to be about the book (because it will get closed) I have a discussion I'd like to have about the Cataclysm...but first, I wanted to set up where I was coming from with some info from the book.
Well...I thought nothing would be able to top the emotional ending to the first book...Beldinas demanding the gods return Cathan to life was overwhelmingly powerful. Boy was I wrong...the last two chapters of Sacred Fire...one was Beldinas' bringing down the Cataclysm...and the other was the Cataclysm itself. I actually wept when reading it. Never in my 150 plus readings of Dragonlance novels (or whatever the number is up to now) have I wept at anything in the novels. I was sad...yes...but nothing got to me like this did. When Beldinas finally realizes at the end what he has done...the suffering he's brought to Ansalon...he sees what he's done for the first time...the truth of what he's done. Paladine is over him in dragon form...seething...raging... Beldinas prostrates himself and begins crying. Apologizing for what he'd done...he says, "I didn't know, I'm sorry...please forgive me."
And Paladine's response was a resounding "NO." That's when I lost it. Here is this man who realizes in the end what he has done, but Paladine is so angry with him because he has forced the great god of good to sacrifice so many because the Kingpriest refused to turn from this folly, so he refuses to forgive him for what he's done. That sucked.
That is followed by about 10 pages of the Cataclysm...the first true representation of the Cataclysm in all the books...the first time it goes into great detail about what happened...and how it happened. Man was that overwhelming. I've probably read those two chapters 10 times now.
But this brings me to the real reason of this thread. I've never completely understood why it was that the Cataclysm had to happen. I know the balance of power had shifted...but how was destroying the planet supposed to fix that. For years I've struggled with it...struggled with why Paladine...the ultimate god of good sacrificed so many innocents to punish so few.
So after thinking about it a lot this weekend...it finally came to me. The Cataclysm had to happen. The Istarian church had not just run the other churches into hiding...it had completely destroyed them. No gods of darkness or twilight had any followers left on Ansalon...they were completely and utterly destroyed. The balanced had shifted way to far to the side of good...and in order to maintain the balance all the good has to be destroyed, too...it sort of levels the playing field.
Another thing I've had trouble understanding is the doctrine of Balance. What happens when one completely holds sway over the other. Is it possible to do what Beldinas was trying? Paladine seemed to think so. So what is the Balance and why does it need to be maintained. My thinking is no longer that the Balance "must" be maintained, it is that the Balance "will" be maintained...no matter what mortals or immortals do...it's just the way of things. The difference is...that the further you let the Balance swing to far to one side...the more catastrophic the swing back to the center is. The most obvious example is the Cataclysm...which was completely catastrophic for good and innocents. The second is after the 3rd Dragon War which was completely catastrophic for evil...I mean the goddess of evil was banished and trapped in the Abyss...the evil dragons destroyed or banished. Pretty bad...not as bad as the Cataclysm...but then again, the pendulum hadn't swung as far towards evil then as it had towards good at the close of the Age of Might.
Anyway...these are just some simple ramblings...things I've been thinking about the past few days and I wanted to share them...see what other people thought. It was just the most powerful ending to anything I can think of that I've seen or read in a very long time and was wanting to discuss the outcome with someone.
Just like this one ...Originally posted by Brimstone
But this brings me to the real reason of this thread. I've never completely understood why it was that the Cataclysm had to happen. I know the balance of power had shifted...but how was destroying the planet supposed to fix that. For years I've struggled with it...struggled with why Paladine...the ultimate god of good sacrificed so many innocents to punish so few.
Well, I call it poor management from a newbie god. Things got out of hand, Palladine was not paying attention and things went down. First thing that came into his mind was to bestow fear so that things would never go bad again. Thus, down went the rock and the bad perished along with world. Typical divine decision, when things go wrong split the earth, drown the people and reset the world...
Prior to the KingPriest Trilogy, I liked to believe that despite what the KingPriest was doing, that Paladine was willing to overlook it because it served his own interests. I liked to believe that Paladine wanted things as much as the KingPriest.
ANd it was in doing so, as the Gods of Evil and Neutrality were getting wiped out on Ansalon, that it pretty much forced the Gods of Neutrality and Evil to have to start laying the foundation for what was going to happen. And that it was not untill the KingPriest made his final demand that Paladine finally realized how over the top things had gone.
Still, the KINGPRIEST TRILOGY was one of the best DragonLance trilogy's ever, in my opinion, on the same level as the DRAGONS and TWINS trilogies. IT was magnificent in its presentation, including the Cataclysm and such as well.
I asked this question in an older thread, and was just wondering on your opinions again: Would it have been better if it had been Raistlin as Fistandantilus; Caraman instead of Pheragas, Crysannia instead of Denubis, etc? Or was it better the way it was, with the original presentation of Fistandantilus the way it was in Astinus's original writings?
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
The thing that has always sort of bothered me is that the Gods of Light/Good in the DragonLance campaign don't always do a very good job of it.
The DL gods have always had that Greek god appearance. Powerful and wise yet capable of huge errors. And that's a good thing in my book.
My problem was that Paladine acted more like an advocate of Neutrality then he does for good.
I've always thought of him as a TN god undercover as an LG god.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
I asked this question in an older thread, and was just wondering on your opinions again: Would it have been better if it had been Raistlin as Fistandantilus; Caraman instead of Pheragas, Crysannia instead of Denubis, etc? Or was it better the way it was, with the original presentation of Fistandantilus the way it was in Astinus's original writings?
I liked it the way it was having yet another book with the companions in it would have been distressing... But here is the thing.... I think that they were there, after all didn't it say something about the kingpreist thinking someone was watching him from underneath the table, or behind the curtain or something-right where Tas watched him in Legends...
Originally posted by Eaglos
First thing that came into his mind was to bestow fear so that things would never go bad again.
That might be a secondary objective...a "this is what happens to people who try to command the gods" warning. But I don't think it was the primary objective. I'll get to why in a second.
Originally posted by DmJoeSalarte
Paladine was willing to overlook it because it served his own interests. I liked to believe that Paladine wanted things as much as the KingPriest.
I still think this is the case. Paladine kept answering his prayers...so obviously he the Kingpriest helping his cause. It's only when Beldinas has the gumtion to try and command the gods that Paladine get's ticked. And really...I think Paladine was with him all the way up to when the Kingpriest went looking for the Disks to find this spell.
It's hard to look at it from the point of the gods. They know the future (or at least a possible one). They try to do the right thing...give people an opportunity to turn back from their folly...give some a chance to redeem themselves by stopping this catastrophe. But they know in the end...it probably will not work, but they can't not give them the opportunity...know what I mean?
Anyway...I have two thoughts on why Paladine caused the Cataclysm (and I know a lot of people dispute this...but time and again in the books...it clearly shows that it is Paladine's doing).
One:
Because the Balanced will be maintained no matter what happens, it's better for Paladine to act on his own before the Order of things tries to fix the Balance on it's own and spins the morality scales so out of control that chaos will take over, and the world will come undone. So it's better for Paladine to cause a a calamity...and it has to be destructive because the only way to restore the Balance at this point (because he let it go on for so long...probably because the Kingpriest was forwarding Paladine's own agenda) was to destroy all good (just as all neutrality and evil were destroyed).
Two:
Neutrality is the only true faction to believe in the Balance. But because Paladine is a God of Good, and he respects his brother Gilean...he will respect his judgement that the Cataclysm must happen to restore the Balance. Gilean probably even offered to do it himself...but I can see Paladine saying, "No, it's my fault...I let it spin out of control...I'll take care of it." I can see him taking responsibility for his actions when the Council of the Gods have voted against him. But it is still something he appalled doing...which is why he was so angry with the Kingpriest for forcing this on him (or at least blaming the Kingpriest for what has happened...which doesn't really go with the "taking responsibility thing" I said earlier, I guess).
Of the two...I think the first one is better and more likely because we all know that Paladine believes in the doctrine of Balance. The question is...why is this? I have justified it in my mind with the first one. Paladine believes in the Balance because he can foresee what would happen if one or the other becomes too powerful. He is not blinded by greed or anger or gluttony or any other sins that blind Takhisis from this (I believe that some evil gods...if not all, sans Takhisis...believe in the doctrine of Balance).
Anyway...that's my current thinking.
Originally posted by DmJoeSalarte
I asked this question in an older thread, and was just wondering on your opinions again: Would it have been better if it had been Raistlin as Fistandantilus; Caraman instead of Pheragas, Crysannia instead of Denubis, etc? Or was it better the way it was, with the original presentation of Fistandantilus the way it was in Astinus's original writings?
I'm not sure. It kind of kills my thought that it was always Raistlin and Caramon and all...I think it works ambiguously enough, though...especially with the comment about Tas in Sacred Fire. I thought it was fine how it was...but I would have been fine with Crysania and Caramon being around as well (Raistlin would have still needed to be referred to as Fistandantilus, though).
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Does any source say who first instigated the idea of the Cataclysm?
No...but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Gilean who first pointed out to his brother that things were going to spin out of control very soon if something wasn't done about it.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
And Taki didnt mind the death and destruction either did she?
I doubt the death and destruction even registered to her. All she cared about was that a) banishment to the Abyss ended when "the world was no longer whole," and b) she also had the rubble (most importantly the cornerstone) of the Temple of Istar which she could use as a portal to the Material Plane.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
I asked this question in an older thread, and was just wondering on your opinions again: Would it have been better if it had been Raistlin as Fistandantilus; Caraman instead of Pheragas, Crysannia instead of Denubis, etc? Or was it better the way it was, with the original presentation of Fistandantilus the way it was in Astinus's original writings?
Yes, No, maybe. The thing that I know for sure is that I hate time travelling. We have read books that told the same story but used different characters. We have read books which described things that never actually took place. Time travels lead to dead ends
It sucks do not include them in novels :sad:As for the cataclysm. I think debates about why and how Paladine had to it are very interesting, it ultimately boils down to the fact that whatever the reason, events unfolded the way they had to, with much tragedy resulting. To do otherwise is to "humanize" Paladine too much, where ultimately gods should remain mysterious. Otherwise they just become high level NPC's.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Time traveling can be quite confusing. However, at least we know that Raistlin was able to change history. Which is now the offical history though?
According to Tracy Hickman in Annotated Legends, Raistlin did not change the past.
He did however, change the future (thanks to Tas).
But Im pretty sure the gods "lay awake at night" wondering whether a certain soul will ask repayment for this.
We all know he wont, as that would be ridiculous in literature, but I bet some of the gods wonder about it.
Also, it would be nice to see some of what he did in the past as Fisty.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
What you say here sounds pretty well right Brim...If it hadnt been for Raistlin's actions through Tas, Takhisis would have been the sole god on Krynn forever.
Oops...yeah, that's a very good point. He changed that future, too.
Actually, I was talking about the future that Tas and Caramon saw in 355 AC. Acording to Hickman in Annotated Legends that was part of the nominal Timeline. Raistlin did nothing different than Fistandantilus after the Cataclysm...Raistlin was stuck to follow Fisti's footsteps. Even Raistlin's entrance into the Abyss was what was supposed to happen...he did not will it to happen...Fisti did the same thing in Raistlin's own past. But no one realized it. It wasn't until Tas traveled to the future and saw what was to become (along the nominal River of Time...not some alternate future because of something Tas did in the Past)...they took that knowledge to the Present and used it to convince Raistlin to change the Future (ultimately through Tas....Tas saved Tanis, Tanis saved Caramon, Caramon convinced Raistlin).
So...Raistlin's decision allowed the world to continue along a new Branch...then Takhisis stole the world. And again, Raistlin helped give Krynn a future...through the help of a time hopping kender.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
the world of krynn owes much to Raistlin Majere. A tragic hero he is!
Too bad everything Raistlin did, he did for selfish reasons. Now, don't get me wrong, Raistlin is one of my favorite characters...but he certainly is no hero.
How did this turn into a thread about the HotL.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
True Raistlin was motivated for selfish reasons at least in the first books but in the War of Souls he looks for the world for love of his brother.
Which...why may not be selfish...is certainly still self serving. Maybe that's a better term for Raistlin...most of his good deeds may not have been selfish, but were definately self serving in nature.
--sometimes it takes ages before we realize our purpose NB
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
I think that is why Raistlin is so popular is becasue we can all identify with him in one way or antother. He reminds some of what we are and others what we can become!
I think that's probably why I hate Raistlin. I could be what he is if I didn't actually keep myself in good physical shape, blamed everyone else for my problems, and used that to justify being a petty, sadistic little freak as soon as I gained some power. So he got picked on as a kid, boo hoo hoo.
Personally I can't really understand the awe and identification people have with this character. I view him with absolute contempt, because deep down he is still a 12 year old whiny boy right up to the time he dies.
Now Caramon is concerned with defending others, engaging people with friendship and love, and though he has problems eventually takes responsibility for them and for himself. Caramon should definately be the figure of emulation and admiration.
Oh, and he was born sickly remember.
Originally posted by ferratus
Personally I can't really understand the awe and identification people have with this character. I view him with absolute contempt, because deep down he is still a 12 year old whiny boy right up to the time he dies.
Just because he's one of my favorite fictional characters...that doesn't mean I admire him. One really doesn't have anything to do with the other.
......
Cataclysm! (damnit)
Originally posted by ferratus
I think that's probably why I hate Raistlin. I could be what he is if I didn't actually keep myself in good physical shape, blamed everyone else for my problems, and used that to justify being a petty, sadistic little freak as soon as I gained some power. So he got picked on as a kid, boo hoo hoo.
Personally I can't really understand the awe and identification people have with this character. I view him with absolute contempt, because deep down he is still a 12 year old whiny boy right up to the time he dies.
Now Caramon is concerned with defending others, engaging people with friendship and love, and though he has problems eventually takes responsibility for them and for himself. Caramon should definately be the figure of emulation and admiration.
Bah humbug! Caramon was just a fat old fuddy duddy that never had any ambition greater in his life than to sit in his house of logs sampling his wife's horrendous cooking, drinking alcohol, and keeping Tika in a continuous state of pregnancy. If I wanted to emulate and admire that kind of character I'd go visit my local trailer park. Now Raistlin, there's a man with ambition. Sure he was a mean-spirited, vicious, evil-hearted bastard of a man, but at least he wanted to do something worthwhile with his life ... like BE A GOD. Talk about aiming high and being in the air force ...
)Originally posted by Brimstone
I doubt the death and destruction even registered to her. All she cared about was that a) banishment to the Abyss ended when "the world was no longer whole," and b) she also had the rubble (most importantly the cornerstone) of the Temple of Istar which she could use as a portal to the Material Plane.
Well, I am sure Taki minded being banished. I am sure that Gilean was well aware of how and why Takhisis were banished. I personally believe in some manner, that Gilean had no choice but to back Takhisis if things continued the way it did. They may have said "We are going to be there when the KingPriest makes his demand, and if he goes thru with it, then BOTH OF US will bring about something that will cause all this" and Paladine had no choice but to take them up on this. And as such, it worked out the way it did.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
It would be nice to see the Council of the Gods that we held, if there was one, that decided about the Cataclysm.
I like to think there was such a council, where Gilean, Takhisis, all the gods of Neutrality, and even the three gods of Magic, all layed down the gauntlet, that if the Kingpriest actually went thru with what he intended, that the Cataclysm would happen. I like to think that at some point, Paladine and the rest of the gods of light did not think it would really happen, but as a precaution, recalled the True Priests home; and then of course came the 13 days of signs and the final day of the Cataclysm.
I like to think the Gods of Light were convinced the Night of Doom would have shocked people...instead it was not even noticed at the time. That might have been the wakeup call to the Gods of Light. And then, as the signs were sent, and instead of pryaers to the true gods, instead prayers to the Kingpriest were cried out instead.
And then the realization must have hit Mishakall first probably, followed by the others, of what had to be done.