Aside from the Specialization requirement (this was quickly fixed in Age of Mortals) I found the Black Robe Order Secrets to be very lacking. Level for Level a Black Robe is way underpowered compare to the White and Red Robes. It would be too much to hope for a “revised” Black Robe in the book but perhaps there is a chance the ToHS book will bring new Order Secrets.
If not has anyone done their own revision of the Black Robe? If so I would like to hear what changes where made. If the Towers of High Sorcery doesn’t bring new Order Secrets or a revision then I will do my own or tweak the Black Robes just a little.
How exactly could there be a revised "Black Robe" unless you revise the entire prestige class, seeing as how they're essentially one and the same? The easiest fix would be new Black Robe Order secrets (new Red and White Order secrets would be good as well).
I would love for some new Order Secrets to appear in the book. As for the RPG stand poing remember the world of Krynn is pretty balance, for every black robe with a black dragon behind him there is a Solamnic with a silver dragon or a Red Robe with an Archon.
Originally posted by cnposner
The Black Robes' moon Nuitari comes into conjunction with the other moons much more often.
Yeah, and so what that conjunction also benefits the other robe wizards. So if Nuitari is in conjunction with Lunitari that’s great for a Red Robe as well. And besides, half the time this conjunction only means that the Black Robe might not have to suffer from Low Sanction, which they are in as often as High Sanction. The moon phases are evenly spread out respectfully for each moon. The moons are balanced, the Black Robe Order Secrets are not.
I think more options for secrets for WoHS would help them out immensely. Not every robe of the same color would have the same secrets. Makes diversity. Also more people would maybe stay in the WoHS prestige class longer if they had cool secrets to help them out.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Yeah, and so what that conjunction also benefits the other robe wizards. So if Nuitari is in conjunction with Lunitari that’s great for a Red Robe as well. And besides, half the time this conjunction only means that the Black Robe might not have to suffer from Low Sanction, which they are in as often as High Sanction. The moon phases are evenly spread out respectfully for each moon. The moons are balanced, the Black Robe Order Secrets are not.
Nuitari comes into conjunction with each of the other moons every 8 days, while Lunitari and Solinari come into conjunction with each other only once every 126 days; so Nuitari is in conjunction with at least one other moon nearly once every 4 days, and the other moons only just over once per 8 days.
For example, a black robe is not going to wantonly throw fireballs around just because he is evil. It would not further the cause of magic, it would hamper it.
Originally posted by cnposner
Nuitari comes into conjunction with each of the other moons every 8 days, while Lunitari and Solinari come into conjunction with each other only once every 126 days; so Nuitari is in conjunction with at least one other moon nearly once every 4 days, and the other moons only just over once per 8 days.
I think your missing the point. That doesn't mean that the Black Robes have an advantaged over the other Robes. Whenever Nuitari is in conjuction with another Moon mages from both moons benefit. I still stand by my point that Black Robe mages are underpowered.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I still stand by my point that Black Robe mages are underpowered.
They aren't. You're clearly not using them properly.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
They aren't. You're clearly not using them properly.
Cheers,
Cam
I know how to use a Black Robe wizard Cam, and I’ll appreciate if you keep you’re assumptions to yourself, unless of course, if you can come up with a valid argument to debunk my believe with something else other than your inane criticism. My whole point in this thread has been to address the issue that I feel (and some have agree and disagree) that the Order Secrets for the Black Robes are not balanced with the White and Red Robe Order Secrets.
Magic of Betrayal and Magic of Darkness are in keeping in good balance with the other Order Secrets.
Magic of Fear is all right, but for a prestige class benefit is not that great when everyone can use Intimidate to “shaken” a foe.
Magic of Hunger is a death sentence in the long run for a mage. Especially in Dragonlance with the Curse of the Magi. Sacrificing a point of Constitution per spell level is a pretty harsh sacrifice for an extra spell.
Magic of Pain is another benefit I would do without for a Prestige Class. Is not much of an advantage when a special ability deals damage to your character as well.
In my opinion, the Wizards of High Sorcery prestige class by powerful level would go as follow; Red Robes, White Robes, and Black Robes. So you see since they come in last I feel they are underpowered.
And again Cam, I can run my mages, even if they are handicapped.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I know how to use a Black Robe wizard Cam, and I’ll appreciate if you keep you’re assumptions to yourself, unless of course, if you can come up with a valid argument to debunk my believe with something else other than your inane criticism.
Right. Next time I'll use the smiley. Here we go, then:
Magic of Betrayal and Magic of Darkness are in keeping in good balance with the other Order Secrets.
Okay, that's two out of five so far.
Magic of Fear is all right, but for a prestige class benefit is not that great when everyone can use Intimidate to “shaken” a foe.
Anybody can use Intimidate to demoralize a foe, but the Black Robe with this Order Secret can do it while they're casting a spell at the same time. Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action for other characters. Plus, the Black Robe gets a bonus equal to the spell level of the spell they cast, which is in itself a significant benefit. Knights of the Lily get a bonus on demoralizing opponents, but it's only a +2 and it's still a standard action for them.
Magic of Hunger is a death sentence in the long run for a mage. Especially in Dragonlance with the Curse of the Magi. Sacrificing a point of Constitution per spell level is a pretty harsh sacrifice for an extra spell.
Curse of the Magi is a variant rule, and even when in play it's not especially difficult to overcome. I prefer the Reserves of Strength feat to reflect the exhaustion presented in the books, but I can see why some wouldn't want to do so. Regardless, Magic of Hunger was designed to reflect the price Black Robe wizards pay to gain more power, something that was handled in previous editions by rapid advancement without the greater potential of White and Red Robed mages. You use this Order Secret when you're certain you need to use it, not casually, and it's usually taken by wizards with a higher Constitution (or ones with access to amulets of health.) Either way, when you couple this increase in spellcasting power with the rapid cycle of the Black Robe's moon, they present a considerable (and unpredictable) threat.
Magic of Pain is another benefit I would do without for a Prestige Class. Is not much of an advantage when a special ability deals damage to your character as well.
It's certainly a disadvantage to have it deal damage to you, but then it'd be too powerful without that. Perhaps it should have been specified as nonlethal damage, but oh well.
In my opinion, the Wizards of High Sorcery prestige class by powerful level would go as follow; Red Robes, White Robes, and Black Robes. So you see since they come in last I feel they are underpowered.
I'm assuming you don't factor in the power of a Black Robe's two specialty schools into this equation? White Robe wizards are proficient in divination and abjuration, neither of which is a common choice for offensive wizards, and each of which makes for a really limited usefulness if picked as a Spell Focus or specialization. Red Robes have the benefit of illusion and transmutation, but again these aren't specifically designed to take anybody out. They become very good at getting away from other wizards or buffing themselves and their allies up, but after that it's parlor tricks.
Black Robes have access to (and more power invested in) necromancy and enchantment, both of which are consistent foils for any opponent they come across. Enchantment makes life hell for classes without good Will saves; necromancy makes life hell for classes without good Fortitude saves. Throw in some evocation and conjuration, which any wizard can use, and the Black Robe becomes a dangerous opponent (who's also inflicting partial negative energy damage on you, making you shaken, and causing you to become wracked with pain at the same time as he's hurting you with his magic).
And again Cam, I can run my mages, even if they are handicapped.
That's good to hear. I don't play Black Robes at all, myself, since I don't play evil characters. My Black Robed wizard NPCs do just fine, however.
Don't get me wrong, though. I do get your point about the difference between the selection of Order Secrets between classes. I'm assuming for the most part that you'd like Magic of Death and Magic of Deceit secrets that do the same for necromancy and enchantment as the White Robe and Red Robe secrets do for their specialty schools, and believe it or not those were both on my mind when I wrote these up, but in the end I went for something that's more in keeping with the themes of the Black Robe's dark path. If you're missing them, stick them back in.
Peace,
Cam
Alright, from your points the one that convinced me the most was Magic of Pain. I think modifying the ability to deal subdual damage sounds better. That way the Black Robe can simply rest for a few hours than carry on. Constitution damage deals too many setbacks in 3.5, from affecting Fort Saves to loss of hit points. It still sounds to serious a price to pay in my opinion. Here were going to disagree. Magic of Fear is still not high in my list but at least a Black Robe can seen more fearsome as he grows in power since you do add the spell level to the Intimidation check.
And you are right I don’t take into account the Black Robes specialty schools. For me Specialization for wizards of High Sorcery is the option, not the rule.
And lastly yes I too run my Black Robes as NPCs. I rarely get to play myself. I take pride in using dark wizards as conniving, wicked villains who only resort to fireballs as a last resort. At which point my players usually feel relive, everyone knows how to deal with a fireball spell.
Master Yap was a sorcerer prior to the return of the gods of magic, and in my campaign the gods of magic appeared before a number of promising mages in an effort to convert them to High Sorcery. Yap was so impressed by Nuitari that he converted on the spot, then went immediately to take the Test of High Sorcery. Of course, the Test was administered in dubious circumstances, but these are hard times and the Tower's not open yet, so the nascent Orders of High Sorcery more or less had to put up with it.
I enjoy the current time period, because to me it's one of those times when the wizards have to do the best they can with what they have. That's why Master Yap is poised on the edge of greatness, when in earlier eras he'd have been laughed out of the Tower and probably sent packing with a lightning bolt to the tail.
Cheers,
Cam
So i forced myself to sit down and start choosing. He is able to have 2 secrets. I ended up choosing Magic of Fear first. Heck, not much of a bonus. Its nice he get to demoralize with Intimidate, but usually I use my skill points for other skills. But hey..its practically a free demoralize I guess..as long as he doesnt want to move that turn.
Second..I finally chose Magic of Darkness. If he found someone who was immune to a certain kind of damage, he would probably cast a different spell anyways than the one they are immune to...but I guess he could eventually run out of those..and only be left with one type of spell......I guess. It doesn't hurt the character at all to have it..so what the heck.
After that..there is no way I'd take any of the other 3 secrets if I was making a PC. Maybe an NPC..but I don't even like that. Magic of Betrayel would just **** off allies..and yes I know a Black Robe is evil..but they still like/need to have allies. Magioc of Pain just doesnt appeal to me. I dont want my hit points going down when I cast spells to try to hurt someone else. They alreadya re going to be trying to hurt me, I don't need to help them out. Magic of Hunger...there is no way..in the world..I would ever use it. Those hit points from con are almot a needed. The only way...only way..I could see someone use this is if the character had an odd number con..and sacrificed one point to be able to memorize one more 1st level spell. I guess a 1st level spell could be very beneficial..but as you go up in level its going to mean less and less.
I hate tos ay it but I just dont see a lot of secrets viable..even the other ones. They have a few good ones..but those will always be taken..and the other ones willa lways justs it there because people will prestige out of the class...or actually go back to wizard. I think I'd rather have one metamgic feat than 2 or 3 secrets. I never thought I'd see a prestige class that would make me want to actually go back and take more levels in wizard instead.
Although I think it would be wise to have a list of new secrets for the prestige class......that would make it awesome....totally customizable and pleasing both sides of the spectrum from the min/maxers to the method actors.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I think your missing the point. That doesn't mean that the Black Robes have an advantaged over the other Robes. Whenever Nuitari is in conjuction with another Moon mages from both moons benefit. I still stand by my point that Black Robe mages are underpowered.
According to my calculations, Solinari and Lunitari are in conjunction for 28 days in the 504-day cycle between Nights of the Eye; whereas Nuitari is in conjunction with Solinari for 70 days and with Lunitari for 72. Hence Nuitari is in conjunction with at least one other moon for a total of142 days, while Lunitari is in conjunction for 100 days and solinari for 100. Moreover there are 7 days whereon Nuitari is in conjunction with both the other moons without them being in conjunction with each other; hence black wizards gain a +2 bonus to caster level and save DCs, while other wizards receive only a +1 bonus. Further, white and black robe wizards are likely to be in opposition to each other; and Nuitari is in conjunction without Solinari being so on 68 days, whereas Solinari is in conjunction without Nuitari being so on only 28 days.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I think your missing the point. That doesn't mean that the Black Robes have an advantaged over the other Robes. Whenever Nuitari is in conjuction with another Moon mages from both moons benefit. I still stand by my point that Black Robe mages are underpowered.
According to my calculations, Solinari and Lunitari are in conjunction for 28 days in the 504-day cycle between Nights of the Eye; whereas Nuitari is in conjunction with Solinari for 70 days and with Lunitari for 72. Hence Nuitari is in conjunction with at least one other moon for a total of142 days, while Lunitari is in conjunction for 100 days and Solinari for 98. Moreover there are 7 days whereon Nuitari is in conjunction with both the other moons without them being in conjunction with each other; hence black wizards gain a +2 bonus to caster level and save DCs, while other wizards receive only a +1 bonus. Further, white and black robe wizards are likely to be in opposition to each other; and Nuitari is in conjunction without Solinari being so on 68 days, whereas Solinari is in conjunction without Nuitari being so on only 28 days.
I don't want underpowered WoHS...but I also dont want the opposite..where the WoHS gives too many powers. In my opinion the War Mage takes the place of that in Dragonlance. That class is just packed way too much with great stuff. I understand its not always easy when ppl are designing this stuff to making it "completely" balanced. But sheesh, the war mage justs eems to pop out at player who is playing an arcane spellcaster. I mean a wizard gets one bonus feat after 5 levels, but a war mage gets 2 metamagic feats, battle magic +3, Arcane Aegis (3 allies?), and armored spellcasting? Bah, I understand its a prestige class...but thats just unreal. But thats a topic for a different thread.
I think the WoHS prestige class almsot needs a rehaul...but..its fixable without doing it, unlike most prestige classes. They already retconned the idea that a WoHS had to be a specialist, which helped a lot. 3 prohibited schools just really knocks you down in versatiliy..coming pretty close to a sorceror heh. More secrets like you suggested, Serena, would help out even more people to maybe want to stay in the class and actually get something cool out of it.
That is the price for being evil.
Originally posted by True_Blue
Bah...I dont believe in someone paying a price to be a Black Robe.
Precisely, especially now that Dragonlance is design to allow evil characters. A Black Robe prestige class should be as enjoyable and balanced as the Knights of Neraka are balanced to the Knights of Solamnia. Not underpowered.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Precisely, especially now that Dragonlance is design to allow evil characters. A Black Robe prestige class should be as enjoyable and balanced as the Knights of Neraka are balanced to the Knights of Solamnia. Not underpowered.
Frankly, just because a PrC for Evil-aligned characters is included doesn't mean the whole setting has now an "all alignments welcome!" policy.
Methink they included the Knights of Neraka (and other PrCs) just for the sake of completeness (not to mention for the NPCs)
DL has always been about Heroes struggling against great Evil. Sure, there has been a few "anti-heroes" but they remain the exception rather than the rule. Besides, as others mentioned, Evil has certain advantages Good will never enjoy.
Also look at Dalamar or Raistlin..neither are good..but they did have agenda's and Raistlin did "adventure" in order to gain more power.
If I played a Knight of Neraka I would try to bring the Law back into the organization..and try to either conquer territories are do things to help out certain areas..so that certain cities may think, you know..these guys may not be lawful good..but they could help us with our problems..like say bandits, policeing, etc. Certain cities actually invited Knights of Nereka occupation and prospered from it.
Evil wizards could wander around teaching people magic and when they go to take the test, urging them with a little nudge towards the Black Robes in order to make their Order bigger.
A Minotaur could adventure around Silvanesti or other places and pose as someone who opposses the occupation, all the while doing recon looking for more choice places for the nation to conquor.
And in the end, you could just have characters who want to profit and become more powerful, and dont always care about doing the right thing. I'm running a campaign that lets any alignments and half of my characters started off evil, but are actually starting to switch their attitudes. These players still do good deeds sometimes because of the rewards..or if they think their characters would want to do them. An evil person may have a soft spot for someone who has had their child stolen and recover the child for them...and then steal from them while the person is overjoyed with the child and not looking.
I never think that an evil class or race should be a little bit less powerful or have hindrances because "well...you should be struggling against evil.." Bah I say...Bah.
Originally posted by True_Blue
I never think that an evil class or race should be a little bit less powerful or have hindrances because "well...you should be struggling against evil.." Bah I say...Bah.
My approach is, if you'd like to play one of the bad guys, prepare to have all of the other bad guys screw you over.
Dragonlance is really all about Evil getting what it deserves. There's not a single evil character who really comes out smelling like roses, even if they appear to have an easy time of it. Good, on the other hand, while it tends to have the worst luck possible, usually comes out on the other side of the trial with, if not a happy ending, a really memorable swan song.
I never give evil an even break. Of course, I don't let my players play evil characters to begin with.
Cheers,
Cam
The minotaur I have is playing a mystic/fighter and has taken a liking to the Citadel Mystic. He's done a coupel of..questionable.. things but I think its totally possible of him making the transition. Hes a very good roleplaying and I think as long as he truly is acting good..and gets an atonement cast on him from the mystics at the Citadel of Light, I dont see much problem.
I usually have a few players who want to do what they want..and not be always being constricted by alignment. Some play good characters, but they might not always agree with what a "Good character" would do..or Neutral or whatever. I see alignment as more of a restriction than anything else, so its not as huge in my games. As long as someone isnt playing a Paladin and going around slaughtering innocents because they looked at him wrong..I'm fine. I want them to be able to play the game how they want to.
Originally posted by Mortepierre
Frankly, just because a PrC for Evil-aligned characters is included doesn't mean the whole setting has now an "all alignments welcome!" policy.
Methink they included the Knights of Neraka (and other PrCs) just for the sake of completeness (not to mention for the NPCs)
DL has always been about Heroes struggling against great Evil. Sure, there has been a few "anti-heroes" but they remain the exception rather than the rule. Besides, as others mentioned, Evil has certain advantages Good will never enjoy.
Actually, ever sense the early days of the Fifth Age Dragonlance, the so-called evil organizations became open for player characters. The Fifth Age concept of the Age of Mortals highlighted the struggle all mortal races had to face. Chaos was the one enemy all followers of the gods had in common, the enemy that made real heroes of Dark Paladins. In Post-WoS Dragonlance a Black Robe seeking to establish his Order back to prominence is a valid player option.
I think it gives ppl a world of new options because they arent always sitting there like "man I wish i could do this...but I'm good and thats not we act". Some people want to play good characters and some dont. I leave it totally up to the players. The only thing I wont tolerate much of is PC screwing over PC.
I dunno, I almost always have a nice mix of alignments in my games and I really havent had any problems. This is why Black Robes, Knights of Neraka, and other classes are looked over extensively by me because I know they are just a viable option as White Robes, Knights of Solamnia, etc.
Hooray the Black Robes are back in business per Wizard's Conclave!
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I dont know about allowing evil characters in my games....personally that would be a privelege only given to roleplayers I know could handle the effort....otherwise Id end up with a Campaign of Vile Stupidity
I have one guy in particular that always role plays his characters like evil characters no matter what alignment he chooses. He does silly things like starts bar fights because someone bumped him in a crowded bar, talks to me OOC as if I am one of the NPCs in the game, gets mad if other characters do better than his character in combat.
This guy also takes 8 hours to create a character while my other players only take an hour at the most. Safe to say he no longer plays in any of my campaigns.
~~~
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
I have the same problem. one guy that we play with can not make a character that is not him. Even if it is a female it is always him. Annoying isnt it?
Very annoying. Plus it seems like these annoying player types always expect you to bring the adventure directly to their character's doorstep with absolutely no effort on their behalf.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Very annoying. Plus it seems like these annoying player types always expect you to bring the adventure directly to their character's doorstep with absolutely no effort on their behalf.
~~~
I know. However another bad thing is that this player takes out real world problems in game. If he doesnt like a player he will do his best to knock them off in game, and yet complains about keeping in-game and out of game knowledge seperate. Go figure!
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
I know. However another bad thing is that this player takes out real world problems in game. If he doesnt like a player he will do his best to knock them off in game, and yet complains about keeping in-game and out of game knowledge seperate. Go figure!
Oh
! You sure this is not the same guy ? I swear he sounds just like the guy that used to play in my campaigns. Except the one in my campaigns is going through some personal problems and his life is not going the way that he wants it to so he started bringing the bad attitude and moodiness to my gaming table. ~~~
This is why I don't like the "evil has drawbacks for being evil" theory. Personally, I think that the Black Robes should be just as viable option as White Robes. I dont mind the flavor that they sacrifice to gain power...but at least try to make their secrets actually viable options. As I said before, when I went through them to choose the ones to take..I actually had to force myself to actually pick one or two.. I would have rather not even had one. I wonder how many Black Robes would just go up one level or two levels in the prestige class because of the bad Order Secrets?
I think that Black Robe had fun though!
Love always,
GCS
(Edited due to content.) - Drake
Originally posted by Green_Cloaked_Sorcerer
Love always,
GCS
You get bonus points.
Cheers,
Cam
Dont post small things on these pages Cam, people dont like it.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
He is polite at times isnt he?
Dont post small things on these pages Cam, people dont like it.
People don't like it when it's a single sentence post on each and every thread, often consisting of a question for which the answer is already given several posts earlier or is something that's been discussed in the recent past. Or, a "me too!" post which contributes nothing.
A conversation between posters that doesn't always take up more than a single sentence is not always bad, but things like the above and the quoting of entire posts just to give a brief response are usually seen as bad netiquette.
Cheers,
Cam
Just cause an character is evil doesn't mean that he will go around always doing evil acts. Lawful and Neutral evil characters do more for thier own benefit than just to be evil. Just as if a good character is ignoring evil acts, i feel that would make the good character (ie White Robe) a evil or atleast Neutral. The fact is evil characters are not always acting evil. They are usually smart enought to hide thier actions against those who might wish to defy them. Atleast until they have the power to stop that person or persons. Thanks!
Love,
GCS
Originally posted by Cam Banks
People don't like it when it's a single sentence post on each and every thread, often consisting of a question for which the answer is already given several posts earlier or is something that's been discussed in the recent past.
Cheers,
Cam
Well, come on, you know that becomes inevitable on a three page post. People probably just read the initial thread post, skim through some of the rest, and then post their opinion.
So everyone have a great posting time thing... err umm yea..GCS
Please note, Black Mages are more powerful than either of the other robes, even without Evocation mastery.
We have this clever little thing we love to call NECROMANCY, as opposed to necrophilia, which in and of itself is just plain wrong.
Now, granted not all DMs allow this, but use the Book of Vile Darkness, it's supersweet. Oh, yeah, and become an Archmage when the 16th level rolls around, you'll thank me then.
Nextly, don't be afraid to play evil as it should be. See that peasant over there? Got access to Dominate Person? Look again, see that expendible peon over there? Too many people play evil for the sake of seeing that E on their character sheet, when honestly it should be an "M" for moron. Wizards are lawful for a reason, a lawful evil wizard can make for a powerful ally while being a villain to the populace... heck I even travelled with a Paladin who couldn't find enough cause to smite me. Be good, without really being good.
Finally, let me make this suggestion, by the time you can cast 8th level spells, have the feat extend spell. Use it on Ghost Sound to get a little disco going, and then cast Otto's Irresistable Dance... Isn't that what evil truly is?
This has been your host to the realm of evil, the Black Robed Arch Mage. I bid you all - "Good Day."