Seriously...if we're going to turn this into a "which Majere is better" can we start a new thread? (although it appears the original topic is dead in the water. )
- Arek Brimstone
Caramon had the charm. He was likeable and everybody wanted him around. This, of course, meant that Caramon would get all the nice ladies and Raistlin would be left with his .... magic. So, Raist had nowhere to direct his urges and he become a spoiled brat. Magic was his only pleasure and he became obsessed (spelling) with it. He wanted to "avenge" all those who mocked him.
I believe that, in the end, he became a bit deranged. He chose the love of Magic over Crysania's
and he carried on with the "Must become God" plan.In conclusion: Problematic childhood, frail body amd lack of sex were the main reasons for his weird behaviour
And he did find Krynn for the gods. At that point in his life (unlive) I don't think it matter much to him if the gods found Krynn or not. He did it all the same though.
I do concede that on that moment in the Abyss if Raistlin would have conceived a future for himself as a god with a more successful world, as oppose to a dead world, he would have likely pressed on. However, I don’t feel in his final days on Krynn Raistlin was evil by any means, maybe not a good guy, but not an evil guy either.
Ok, the way I see it is this. I think that Magic Users in the Dragon Lance world are well aware that there is more to the universe then just Krynn. I think they are aware of "Other Planes", of Ravenloft, and so on and so forth. Perhaps he knows that Takhsisis's 'Abyss' is just one layer of 666, with beings like Demogorgon, Orcus, Lolth, and others out there. Or that Takhisis's Abyss is really the First Plane of Hell, and that there are other planes with beings like Asmodeous out there. Perhaps aware that if he could defeat Takhisis and Paladine, he could surely defeat their Twin's, Bahamut and Tiamat.
As such, I think Raist wanted 'that chip in the big game' and was willing to do what it took to get there.
Perhaps aware that if he could defeat Takhisis and Paladine, he could surely defeat their Twin's, Bahamut and Tiamat.
First off, point of detail: Takhisis and Paladine are NOT the twins of Tiamat and Bahamut. They ARE Tiamat and Bahamut. If you check their old, Istarian names, they're "Ti'mut" and "Ba'mut" or something similar. They just go by different names on Krynn.
And while it's never been stated, I think that most gods split their personalities to deal with different worlds, since most other gods that recur from setting to setting (Corellon, Moradin, Lolth) don't seem concerned, or even to acknowledge, other worlds. My theory is that there is a Bahamut for Krynn, and one for Greyhawk, and one for Toril. And they aren't necessarily aware of each other, but they're all part of a larger being, which is aware of them all. But that's another thread, possibly on another board.
Alright, now, on to Raistlin. How, exactly, is being tortured forever by the Queen of Darkness better than ruling over an empty world? But I figure, while he was evil, he had a line, one he would not cross. This is true of a lot of evil characters. And completely annihilating every living thing on the planet was a little bit over this line.
Further, taking over the world is not necessarily a WHOLLY evil motive. After all, *I* want to take over the world, and I don't necessarily consider myself evil. I simply think I could run it better. Raistlin, seeing himself as vastly mentally superior to....everyone, really, probably figured that the world would run better with him in charge, and maybe even that people would eventually be happier if he was in control.
Ultimately, I think it's really hard to say what Raistlin's ultimate motivations were, or his alignment, in the end. I thought he was a pretty cool character, though.
And secondly, Raistlin stated plainly to Palin his reasons, and they were not to save the world from oblivion. He would kill all if he needed to to achieve his goals. He just didnt want to be a failure, which is what he would have been if he had gone through with it
I am well aware that the official line is that Takhisis and Paladine are not Bahamut and Tiamat. Which is why I refered to them as "their twin brothers/sisters" as it may be. Think about it? If Raist were to someday make his way to GreyHawk or Forgotten Realms and finds out about Bahamut/Tiamat, his reaction likely will be "Hey, I already beat them...."
I know it is hokey but why not?
In 2nd Edition just about everything crossed over. Hell, Dalamar shared spells with Elminster and all the great Grayhawk wizards somewhere in the planes. Now that doesn't work.
And secondly, Raistlin stated plainly to Palin his reasons, and they were not to save the world from oblivion. He would kill all if he needed to to achieve his goals. He just didnt want to be a failure, which is what he would have been if he had gone through with it
And somehow, giving in and being consigned to the abyss was a success?
No, that sounds like a justification, after the fact, by Raistlin, because he didn't want to admit to being soft.
And I hold to Paladine and Takhisis being reflections/aspects of Bahamut and Tiamat. Again, their Istarian names are too much to pass off.
Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
And I hold to Paladine and Takhisis being reflections/aspects of Bahamut and Tiamat. Again, their Istarian names are too much to pass off.
Those names are a nod by the designers to the conceptual origins of the two gods, not an admission that they aer to be considered the same as the (lesser powered) dragon rulers of other worlds. Remember that in 1st edition AD&D, Tiamat and Bahamut were not gods but unique and singularly powerful dragons who ruled dragons of their respective alignments. They were elevated to godhood by later products, and Dragonlance was the first to be inspired by them in such a way.
Cheers,
Cam
I don't like the part of the War of Souls where Raistlin is the one who finds Krynn. I just find it amazing the gods couldnt be he could. But I could even get past that..even though it would bother me. My problem is Raistlin just kept popping up and to me it was just annoying. It almost seemed like because of his popularity in the Chronicles and Legends..he became a favorite and they were just trying to cash in on him..and no not to make money..but to say soemthing like "hey one of your favorite characters is back..read about him more!". Personally.. I like to think of him as being accidently conjured for Palin's test...giving him the Staff of Magius..and then eventually be at peace..like in Caramon's dream he had.
Having Raistlin keep coming back just kept leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
He's as evil, self-centred and amoral as Raistlin but at least he doesn't blame anyone else or his upbringing for his actions.
Plus he doesn't whine and go through all that tortured angst.
:D
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
And secondly, Raistlin stated plainly to Palin his reasons, and they were not to save the world from oblivion. He would kill all if he needed to to achieve his goals. He just didnt want to be a failure, which is what he would have been if he had gone through with it
Wasnt this apart of Palin's test. Was it part of the Test or Raistlin being Raistlin?
My problem is Raistlin just kept popping up and to me it was just annoying. It almost seemed like because of his popularity in the Chronicles and Legends..he became a favorite and they were just trying to cash in on him..and no not to make money..but to say soemthing like "hey one of your favorite characters is back..read about him more!".
*Cough* Elminster *Cough*
*Cough* Pug *Cough*
There is nothing I cannot stand more than one mage that never dies. In fact that is one of the reasons that I like Raistlin. He could and did die. Maybe it is just some part of me that identifies more with a mortal character but I just hate the mages that have been around for eons.
He really only got over it through the training regimen they put him through in the gladiatorial games at Istar.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
This is just my opinion and anyone whom does not like it doesn't have to.
Ok, the way I see it is this. I think that Magic Users in the Dragon Lance world are well aware that there is more to the universe then just Krynn. I think they are aware of "Other Planes", of Ravenloft, and so on and so forth. Perhaps he knows that Takhsisis's 'Abyss' is just one layer of 666, with beings like Demogorgon, Orcus, Lolth, and others out there. Or that Takhisis's Abyss is really the First Plane of Hell, and that there are other planes with beings like Asmodeous out there. Perhaps aware that if he could defeat Takhisis and Paladine, he could surely defeat their Twin's, Bahamut and Tiamat.
As such, I think Raist wanted 'that chip in the big game' and was willing to do what it took to get there.
*ahem*
No. the DL world is COMPLETLY SEPERATE from all others. Krynn has its OWN cosmology that DOES NOT mesh with the ravenloft or FR or Mystra, or spelljammer, or anything else, EVER.
Originally posted by Katt Nightstalker
*ahem*
No. the DL world is COMPLETLY SEPERATE from all others. Krynn has its OWN cosmology that DOES NOT mesh with the ravenloft or FR or Mystra, or spelljammer, or anything else, EVER.
True, but we the people can try to believe whatever we like, and I try to put some things together. There are times where I agree, that Krynn is completely seperate and isolated from the rest of the universe; similarly, in my campaign, Mystara is actually a continent on Krynn, located north of Ansalon. But again, that is just me.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Actually Takhisis's realm of the Abyss was actually the first layer of the 9 Hells.
Which is what he said.
Cheers,
Cam