Twilight Herald said the following...
Actually, this leads to one of the more baffling puzzles concerning the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage PrC. A White Robe whose loyalties are conflicted is happily permitted to join, but a Lawful Good sorcerer who is entirely devoted to the god Kiri-Jolith and the goals of the Knighthood would be ineligible to take the class.
The Solamnic auxiliary exists to serve a purpose, which is to allow non-knights to operate alongside the Orders in their own unique capacity. This auxiliary includes all kinds of characters, from spies and rogues to engineers, clerics, and arcane spellcasters. It includes elves and dwarves, who can't otherwise be knights. It's the "friends of the Knights of Solamnia" group.
The knights really only ask one thing of these auxiliary members, which is that they conduct themselves according to the Oath and the Measure, because that's what they do, and they can't have people representing them (even as an auxiliary unit) that don't agree with their code.
I don't think the Knight's Trial and its related testing is supposed to accord the auxiliary member anything more than status as an ally of the Orders and a trustworthy member of the auxiliary group. It doesn't make them a knight, and their rank is provided to them for the purposes of commanding footmen and the like, only. But, as above, you have to be on the same page as the knights are.
In the new era that the War of Souls has ushered forth, most if not all of the knights who were mystics are now turning to Kiri-Jolith. The knights have their divine sponsor, which is all well and good. But, that's the knights - they don't necessarily ask the same from their auxiliaries, so long as the auxiliaries aren't evil or lawbreakers and so forth. You don't have the be a cleric to worship Kiri-Jolith, for example, so demanding that a non-cleric use divinely granted abilities seems a little weird.
Therefore, if the auxiliary contains sorcerers (who are more numerous, and more likely to have been included for some time) and wizards (who are only recently invested with their powers after 40 years of not being able to cast wizard spells), the knights won't care either way unless it presents a problem with the auxiliary member's role as an ally to the knights. If anything the spellcaster does conflicts with the aims and goals of the knights, or causes dissention, or presents any number of problems, then on a case-by-case basis they'll be asked to leave.
That goes for wizards, sorcerers, mystics, bards, fighters, monks, whoever. Play by the rules, and you stay. Kick up a fuss, you're out of here.
If the Orders of High Sorcery come looking for you and tell you to convert, then you'd probably better listen to them, since creating a rift with them isn't on the agenda at the moment, assuming they're being nice about it. Of course, your allies in the auxiliary and the Orders of Solamnia might jump in to help you, but that's what comrades do. Just so long as at the end of the day, you don't make the Solamnic knights look bad, and you don't make Kiri-Jolith really upset.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I, personally, like the wizard route as it makes for some awesome conflict and role-playing. However, I see no problems using sorcerers. The key problem to consider is when the two are in the same organization.
And...
Originally posted by Cam Banks
the knights won't care either way unless it presents a problem with the auxiliary member's role as an ally to the knights. If anything the spellcaster does conflicts with the aims and goals of the knights, or causes dissention, or presents any number of problems, then on a case-by-case basis they'll be asked to leave.
I think these two ideas put together is the most logical route to go...at least it seems so to me. Sure there will be conflict...but so long as they've both pledged loyalty to the Solamnic Knighthood...they should be able to put aside their differences. Perhaps this is a good place for the healing to begin?
I kinda liken it to the three different robes...they hate each other's moral ideals...but they must still get along and learn to play nice with each other in certain situations.
I don't think the Knight's Trial and its related testing is supposed to accord the auxiliary member anything more than status as an ally of the Orders and a trustworthy member of the auxiliary group.
They are considered the equivalent of Squires of Crown, but are not considered to be knights.
The key thing to remember with such a role is honor and loyalty. The Knights of Solamnia are mainly interested in following the tenets of the Measure. I would think that a spellcaster would be judged on his own merits rather than by how he casts spells.
And really, it can be argued both ways.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The key thing to remember with such a role is honor and loyalty.
I don't think the auxiliary exists in a state of allegiance to the knights or hinges upon loyalty, as it is by and large a collection of allies who work toward the same goals as the knights do. So, rather, the key thing is that the auxiliary members act in accordance with the Solamnic philosophy, much as those private contractors in Iraq are supposed to act in accordance with Coalition philosophy, to give a somewhat similar and current example.
Therefore, a Solamnic auxiliary member is entrusted with a position of some influence over rank and file footmen (who, I should point out, aren't in the Orders either) and access to Solamnic resources in whichever circle they are stationed at, and this trust is given with the expectation that the member will not abuse it nor will he or she act against the Solamnic code. They're also required to act under the supervision of knights, one imagines, who would be their officers and commanders, but they're not squires and therefore they don't have to act like them.
I suppose I'm trying to present the image of the Solamnic auxiliary wizard or sorcerer as not being simply a knight who accidentally grew up to be a spellcaster, but a spellcaster who likes the Solamnic way of life and associates with them, offering his services. The latter is exactly what an auxiliary is for, in this case.
Cheers,
Cam
Matthew L. Martin
When you look at the dedication it takes to many arts, I think there is a reason why in 1st and 2nd Edition, there were limits to multiclassing. I think it is ridiculous how many 3/4/5/1 characters there were, I think it demeans all the classes when they go that far. As I recall, humans were EXTREMELY limited in multiclassing, as they generally had to dedicate themselves to a certain class in order to do it in their lifetime, whereas other races had more years to master more things.
Sorcerers on the other hand do not have "aligned" magic, nor do they owe their loyalties to anyone but the Solamnic Knighthood.
It would make a lot sense to me that the SAM's are made up of wizards if the Knights of Solamnia worshipped all seven of the gods of good, rather than just Kiri-Jolith, or even the triumvirate of Paladine, Kiri-Jolith, and Habbakuk.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
There are starting to be so many Prestige Classes out there, that it is difficult to even call them Prestige Classes anymore.
When you look at the dedication it takes to many arts, I think there is a reason why in 1st and 2nd Edition, there were limits to multiclassing. I think it is ridiculous how many 3/4/5/1 characters there were, I think it demeans all the classes when they go that far.
Well, the WoHS prestige class is a perfect example of this. If we are going to to have WoHS type subclass prestige class, then there shouldn't have been a base WoHS prestige class.
Heck, change the "Order Secrets" into metamagic feats, and the entire reason for needing the prestige class vanishes into thin air. In fact, they work even better as feats, since some Order Secrets are more powerful than others. That means, as feats, you can slap on the appropriate prerequisites.
But then I'm of the opinion that 90% of the prestige classes out there can be done with feats. The reason prestige classes are so popular though is that people want to think that they are playing something radically different from the ordinary. However, when you realize that all these classes are simply brute strength, stealth, and magic mixed together to taste, prestige classes become pretty pointless.
Here is a pretty amusing comic strip on the subject of multi-classing. ;)
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=50
I believe it was in Meetings Sextet, the one where Tanis and Flint for the first time meet Tasselhoff, it is mentioned that a Solamnic Knight now keeps as his 'advisor' a Red Robe mage, and Flint mentioned something that before the Cataclysm that no Knight would consort with such a wizard and that it would be a CLeric of Paladine at a Knights side.
Going onto the whole 'Prestige Class' thing. I think it really 'builds it around the Rule Books' when we see a level 3 Fighter/level 2 Cleric/Level 4 Knight of the Crown/Level 5 whatever. To me that becomes too 'spread out' and directed to be of any good. I would make such a character a Paladin. I know all the things there, but that is what the above has become and throwing out all these Prestige Classes just takes away from the 'reality' of the game and makes it too much "based on the rulebook".
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
Well, first on the subject of the Solamnic Auxilary Mage. THe fact is, this would only be appropriate in the age AFTER the Cataclysm but BEFORE the War of the Lance. It is clear that before the Cataclysm, the Knights of Solamnia did not have much use for magic users, primarily because of the abundance of True Clerics in SOlamnia.
In the time between the cataclysm and WotL, both Knights and wizards were viewed with hostility. The Knights were part of the forces in the Kingpriest's war against sorcery, so after the cataclysm they probably still had the same feelings...That magic of ANY color is evil...Knights have never had MUCH need of wizards, so even now Auxillary Mages are probably kind of rare. And in the Kingpriest trilogy, even 40 years before the cataclysm, true clerics are extremely rare...which I never understood but that's a whole different topic, but according to those books, there is not an abundance at all.
Originally posted by raistlinrox
In the time between the cataclysm and WotL, both Knights and wizards were viewed with hostility. The Knights were part of the forces in the Kingpriest's war against sorcery, so after the cataclysm they probably still had the same feelings...That magic of ANY color is evil...Knights have never had MUCH need of wizards, so even now Auxillary Mages are probably kind of rare. And in the Kingpriest trilogy, even 40 years before the cataclysm, true clerics are extremely rare...which I never understood but that's a whole different topic, but according to those books, there is not an abundance at all.
1) While both the ORders of Magic and the KOS were both viewed poorly after the cataclysm, in some regions, there was little else to believe in. In any case, the Knights would probably need something to offset the loss of Clerica magic was now lacking,a nd thus, enter the Auxillary mages.
2) It is pretty clear that as the KingPriest Trilogy hits, that True Clerics are becoming rarer and rarer because most people are no longer following the divine will of Paladine, but are in it for power and money and lust of it. However, they do make it clear that the KNights of solamnia were having a 'chism' within their own ranks, with Knights whom wanted to follow the divine will of the KingPriest and Knights whom realized that they were falling off the path of Paldine. And I imagine, it is because the Knights kept their faith with Paladine (but still aided the Kingpriest) that made them so hated in the post-cataclysm era.
In the times where the Knights made their legends, in the era of Vinas Solamnus and Huma, however, True Clerics were probably very common. In my campaign, Knights are to treat Clerics pretty much as equals, especially on matters of the spirit.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
Well, first on the subject of the Solamnic Auxilary Mage. THe fact is, this would only be appropriate in the age AFTER the Cataclysm but BEFORE the War of the Lance.
Technically, the role is only appropriate after the Solamnic Auxiliary was created, which was after the Measure was revised. According to Age of Mortals, this is put into effect after the War of Souls (ergo, one of the contradictions with Heroes of Sorcery).
The role can be expanded to include other eras of play. For example, this role would be appropriate for Palin Majere just prior to the Chaos War, when he traveled with his brothers after they became knights.
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
One of the reasons that I am rather dismayed at the official exclusion of sorcerers from the Solamnic Auxiliary is that I saw the Knighthood as one of various organizations within which wielders of ambient arcane magic could potentially find protection from the reformed Wizards of High Sorcery and their renegade hunters ( not that all sorcerers would need such protection, of course ). In addition to the Legion of Steel and the Knights of Neraka, I was hoping to see at least the Solamnic Order and the Empire of Ergoth forbidding the WOHS from indulging in sorcerer-hunting within their borders. At least I can still foresee various Churches of good, neutral, and evil gods accepting sorcerers as useful lay members of the faith.
Hey, think of it this way. Two of the three knighthoods (if the Legion is a knighthood - *ducks!*) incorporate ambient spellcasters. That's not too bad. Plus one's good and the other is evil, so you get both ends of the spectrum.
The Knights of Solamnia are sticks-in-the-mud anyway. ;)
Seriously, though, I think this gives more appeal to the Legion of Steel. Here's an organization that is firmly based in the Age of Mortals. It doesn't look like they're going to incorporate godly magic any time soon. This makes the perfect place for sorcerers and mystics.
So, essentially, you have the WoHS and KoS who use godly magic, and the LoS and KoN who use ambient magic.
Seems to me we have a balance. ;)
If, on the other hand, you just let people pick up a PrC when they level up... well, that's just too easy.
Consider the Knight of the Crown. Easiest, most straight forward way to get there is Fighter. You can do it as a Rogue, Ranger, Cleric, Barbarian, etc. as well, but it'll take a bit longer.
Personally, I like the way 3rd edition's mutliclassing works.
I like the ability to pick up a level of Rogue or Ranger to make my fighter a little sneakier. I like the ability to pick up a level of Mystic to make my Rogue be able to heal.
What I HATED was that in 2ndEd, in order to learn to pick pockets, you had to go through a mid-life crisis and basically stop being whatever you were before. On top of that, you had to have assininely high ability scores to do so.
So blah.
----------
Back on topic, Sorcerers and Wizards both fit the mold of the SAM, but I see Sorcerers coming into conflict with their Wizardy peers, since they're blasphemous usurpers using forbidden powers that they'll eventually lose control of and bring about a massive magical storm that will kill 1/4th the population.
-TRRW
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
One of the reasons that I am rather dismayed at the official exclusion of sorcerers from the Solamnic Auxiliary is that I saw the Knighthood as one of various organizations within which wielders of ambient arcane magic could potentially find protection from the reformed Wizards of High Sorcery and their renegade hunters ( not that all sorcerers would need such protection, of course ). In addition to the Legion of Steel and the Knights of Neraka, I was hoping to see at least the Solamnic Order and the Empire of Ergoth forbidding the WOHS from indulging in sorcerer-hunting within their borders. At least I can still foresee various Churches of good, neutral, and evil gods accepting sorcerers as useful lay members of the faith.
1) I can certainly see how Sorcerors might want to head to a Solamnic garrison for protection from the Orders of Magic.
I would imagine that early in the history of the Order, perhaps the wizards made a case that Renegades were too dangerous to the peace of all, and that is why they had to do what they did. ANd it is also possible that this was a 'silent' thing, where the Orders would hunt for Renegades but would do so quietly and without fanfare. A "war in the shadows" as it may where the rest of the world hardly ever had a clue it was going on.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
That situation is exactly where the genius of the writers came in. The situation you just referred to is where the great roleplaying opportunites of the SAM come in. Who does he listen to.....which set of orders....his loyalties are split, what will he do? What will the Conclave do if he ignores their requests....what will the Solamnics do if he disobeys the order? Ooooooh rife with rp chances!!!
Agreed!
To expand on this, what happens when a SAM has sworn an oath, yet that conflicts with the Conclave? Does he go renegade? Does he break his vow?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Agreed!
To expand on this, what happens when a SAM has sworn an oath, yet that conflicts with the Conclave? Does he go renegade? Does he break his vow?
Well, if an SAM does so, it is not like the ORDERS declare war on the SAM. The SAM would certainly be barred from entering any Tower of High Sorcery and would enjoy no bounds of protection. I imagine the COnclave would place a bounty out on the death of the renegade, thus keepign their own hands clean of whatever happens next.
I highly doubt there woudl be anything covert or open about what is going on. If the SAM disappears or is found dead in his sleep, who knows? I know if a dozen Wizards attack Vingaard Keep to get this SAM it will mean war and I doubt the COnclave would want that.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
The thing is...what I am sure the reason the KoS do not inhibit the WoHS in their renegade hunting....is that the KoS hae respect and dedication to the gods....and the order to hunt renegades comes from the gods of magic. To me it is quite obvious that the KoS would only accept White Robed Wizards into their Auxiliary, being that the White Robes follow the brother god to the gods of the KoS. You almost have another triumvirate there.
The Solamnics respect Solinari as a brother deity of Kir-Jolith and Habbakuk, certainly, but the policies of the gods' followers are hardly in lock-step. Its been made pretty clear that the other gods, especially the more forthright ones such as Kiri and Sargonnas, are rather leery of the motives of the moon deities and look askance at their decision to ally with each other rather than support their respective pantheons. So I just can't quite get my head around the Solamnics letting the WOHS hunt renegades in their territory if said renegades happen to be good-aligned, law-abiding followers of Kiri / Habbakuk.
So I just can't quite get my head around the Solamnics letting the WOHS hunt pursue renegades in their territory if said renegades happen to be good-aligned, law-abiding followers of Kiri / Habbakuk
It depends on what capactity the Renegades are. If the REnegades are leading the simple life, not bothering anyone, and wizards show up in town to kill him, a Knight would have to defend the Renegade.
if the Renegade is active service to the queen of darkness, then I imagine they would help the conclave.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Theres another discrepancy there Joe.......the Solamnics would not allow the WoHS to take down the renegade wild sorcerer who serves Takhisis.....because none of them do....she's dead. But.......here's a question that Ive been wondering about. Is using ambient magic an outright admission of serving no god at all?
well, I don't read any of the post DRAGONS OF SUMMER FLAME series because I just did not like it, and based on what I have heard happened post-Summer of Flame, I am glad because it sounds like they really butchered a lot of things that I loved about DragonLance.
So generally speaking, I am talking Pre-Twins/War of the Lance/ or Pre-cataclysm when I speak about this stuff.
This class is just waiting for there to be tension and I don't personally believe any class should be taken by a PC and they know that eventually..they will have a huge decision to make. WoHS or Solamnics.
Personally I think sorcerors fit so much better as a solamnic mages. They can make their loyalty totally to the solamnics. I know everyone says that these people arent knights...but come on..they still have to follow the Measure and adhere to it in their daily life..their commanders will be. So I pretty much assume they are "virtual" knights or whatever. They arent official knights..but still have all the laws and codes to live by.
See, I like Dragonlance a lot. I like the way it was developed but this god stuff is what causes the most problems in the world. Since you can only have one patron god..and practically everything involves a god. I'm still trying to figure out what happens if the Knights of Solamnia come into conflict with the church of Kiri-Jolith...and now I also need to figure out what happens if the Knights come into conflict with the followers of Solinari, i.e. the WoHS.
I would hate to have a player play a choice and then almost be forced eventually to make a decision..and have big consequences (like becoming a renegade, or being an ex-solamnic) happen to them because they wanted a class they could rp with and liked.
I think in the end..sorcerors are the people who would be attracted to this class way more than wizards.
Originally posted by True_Blue
It seems like everyone likes the Solamni Auxilary Mage because it adds "RP flavor". Personally, I think the dual loyalty to WoHS and Solamnic Knights make the class all but unplayable(*edit* I guess I shouldnt say unplayable..but it still sucks). The point of the class is so that there are wizards who like the life of the solamnic and want to help out and do what they can. I just don't see how they can do that, if they are still taking orders from the WoHS.
This really isn't much different than black robes who serve in the dragonarmies or white robes who served the Whitestone forces.
Yes, there may be conflict, but that doesn't mean that there will be conflict. After all, the KoS and white robes are both servants of good. I think the amount of conflict between the two is up to the individual DM.
As for whether or not the class is unplayable - that depends on the campaign and the player.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Theres another discrepancy there Joe.......the Solamnics would not allow the WoHS to take down the renegade wild sorcerer who serves Takhisis.....because none of them do....she's dead. But.......here's a question that Ive been wondering about. Is using ambient magic an outright admission of serving no god at all?
I wouldn't think so - most churches should be glad to have sorcerers among the faithful just as they would welcome fighters, rangers, rogues etc. Everyone can contribute to the faith in their own way, and an ambient arcane caster should be no exception, especially in chaotic movements such as the churches of Sirrion, Branchala, Zeboim etc - what do they care if a sorcerer is a walking breach of the Laws of High Sorcery? The bottom line is that gods value useful followers, whatever the class. As for mystics, they draw divine power from within, but this doesn't mean they can't become lay followers of a deity whose philosophy matches their own - they simply don't channel magical energy from that deity, just as a fighter wouldn't.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Unless of course they accept the divine mandate that wild sorcerers are renegades and should not practice primal sorcery.
Also, far as we know, only the gods of magic have condemned primal sorcery as ungodly, as well they might since it is a threat to their own power base. However, we know that not all the gods think that much of Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari's opinions. Would Sargonnas or Kiri-Jolith vet their potential followers based on the approval of the Three? I rather think they would look for personal honour, courage and a forthright, militant nature, regardless of the person's character class.
I see the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage as a test class.. the Knights of Solamnia are seeing how well it will work out..and if it doesnt..I could see them just getting rid of it..for wizards.
For sorcerors I think the Knights will be thrilled. A sorceror who joins the Knights is similar to a fighter who joins the Knights. They swear to the Oath and the Measure and will try to follow it throughout their lives.
I see too much conflict in Dragonlance with all these patron gods.
I just dont see how wizards are favored to join the class and not sorcerors. I think the whole thing with it being "godly" magic is bogus personally, and I know that it is just my opinion. Like I said before, for thousands of years the Knights of Solamni havent cared one bit if WoHS worshipped Solinari. Now all of a sudden, they only want ppl who worship them and not someone who can dedicate themselves to the Knights of Solamnia and even Kiri-Jolith and Habaukkuk? As I said, I see a sorceror joining the Knighthood the same as a fighter joining the Knighthood. They bring their talents to the Knighthood and try to follow the Oath and Measure because they believe it is the right way.
At first I just read this thread with small interest, but now the more and more i look over the SAM, I just think its for sorcerors. As for the Black Robes who helped out the dragonarmies, I see them as people who helped..and wanted them to win..but they didnt devote themselves to the army, giving them primary allegiance. It sthe same way you can't really have Black Robes join the Knights of Neraka...the Knights of the Thorn dedicate themselves to the Knighthood. I would think the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage is the same way..the Knights want people who will dedicate themselves to the KoS.
But..it almost seems its cut in half in opinion so I guess this is one of those things that some people will change the SAM to allow sorcerors and others will keep them dedicated to wizards.
At first I just read this thread with small interest, but now the more and more i look over the SAM, I just think its for sorcerors.
But that is a moot point, as the printed class specifically states that it is only for white robed WoHS.
I just dont see how wizards are favored to join the class and not sorcerors. I think the whole thing with it being "godly" magic is bogus personally, and I know that it is just my opinion. Like I said before, for thousands of years the Knights of Solamni havent cared one bit if WoHS worshipped Solinari.
It isnt, the KoS trust in the gods magic more than ambient magic, since at least a god has control and laws that govern its use.
And as far as the thousands of years that the knights didnt care for magic users....that all changed with the revised Measure ala Lord Gunther Uth Wistan.
BUt you are right...people will change the class as they see fit for their games...lol...I personally prefer it as written....mainly because of the difficulty in playing a character who has loyalties to two organizations.
Bah..I can see how the Knights would rethink their stance on magic and talk among themselves about how the Knights of Neraka were better off having Knights of the Thorn and giving them equal rights. The Knights of Solamnia would then say... we need to start letting magic-users in..they could help us fight evil, etc. But I just dont see how when they are discussing all this and the requirements for an auxiliary unit made up of magic users, they list off the parts about being a good person, loyal to the Knighthood, follows the Oath and the Measure and then one person says.."well yea..but it HAS to be magic from the gods..I mean..we all know its better right?"..and everyone else gives a big "Here Here.." or "Huzzah!".
Again, I know I'm repeating myself, but I dont see why the knighthood would favor wizards over sorcerors. Yes I know Solinari is good..but the knights have always known that and they also know that wizards stick together...magic comes first in thier lives. I dunno, like ppl have said, I guess theres only conflict of the Dm wants to make conflict. I just see the SAM as more of a person who dedicates his whole life and being to the Knighthood, like what the Knights of the Crown, Sword, and Rose do. But I guess thats not nessecarily true.. would be nice tho. Who knows maybe someone will pop up that ends up being the Sturm Brightblade of the Solamnic Auxiliary Mages, and brings honor to and prestige to the title.
Nothing can define the world better or change people's opinions quicker than a novel coming out and having a story about something.
We do need someone to rise up and be a hero for the SAM's and bring prestige to the occupation. I know they respect Palin, but I'm very dissapointed in his character. He had such high hopes and I feel he justw as kind of a bland character. I was hoping he would become an archmage of tremendoues power, sort of a good raistlin or something. The only thing I like about his character is that it shows that not everyone turns out the way you might think or necessarily in a good way.
But back to the SAM, hopefully someone will come along and show honor by example, and the SAM will end up becoming a true part of the Knights...maybe even 4 branches of Knights instead of 3? Or..maybe I'm just turning them into the Knights of Neraka heh...I always did think the Knights of Neraka were cool because they had a combined military...spiritual, magical, and martial.
The KoS are very much into tradition, so it is doubtful they would allow a SAM in their ranks any time soon. The inclusion of White Robes in the Auxiliary, though, is a big step and is about as close as they will come.
I've played a SAM once, which I found to be a highly rewarding experience. I loved it because I was combining Solamnic honor (ala Sturm) with magical might. One time, I kept getting knocked down, but I wouldn't stay down. My character wasn't the most physical, so this took a great effort. It was an epic moment, and showed his Solamnic determination.
There is already an updated Knights of Solamnia that has gotten to "with the times". It is called the Legion of Steel. To me, the Knights of Solamnia are interesting if they seem like something out of story and song.
Now the SAM is a good idea because it allows for a greater degree of party cohesion. However, True Blue and Twilight Herald are correct in that the fact that the WoHS and the Solamnic Knights up until recently were not the best of friends. Why is the fact that they practice "godly magic" now a reason to take them into their breast when before the WoHS was distrusted because they tolerated black robes in their midst?
This simply has to be addressed somewhere in order to make sense.
THe KoS are all about law and order...I mean come on! How many volumes does the Measure take up? 37 wasnt it? Now, these KoS want to get with the times a little bit and create an Auxiliary for magic users.....but who do they let in? Certainly not wild sorcerers.....their power comes from tapping raw chaos....The wild sorcerers power is derived from that which is anathema to the entire Knighthood. Chaos!! However, there is this order of good aligned law abiding wizards, who also practice magic given them by a (lawful good) god who (this is paraphrased from AoM) encourages his white robed wizards to seek out truth, using their magic to defend the innocent and uphold justice. Now to me, that is right in line with the KoS' way of life. Which is probably why they only opened up the Mage Auxiliary to White Robes.
Now dont get me wrong...I know there are good wild sorcerers...and probably lawful ones at that....but their magic is derived from chaos, which up until they have their moment to truly prove themselves, will likely keep them out of the Solamnic Auxiliary
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I cant believe that no one gets it! Almost no one....
THe KoS are all about law and order...I mean come on! How many volumes does the Measure take up? 37 wasnt it? Now, these KoS want to get with the times a little bit and create an Auxiliary for magic users.....but who do they let in? Certainly not wild sorcerers.....their power comes from tapping raw chaos....The wild sorcerers power is derived from that which is anathema to the entire Knighthood. Chaos!! However, there is this order of good aligned law abiding wizards, who also practice magic given them by a (lawful good) god who (this is paraphrased from AoM) encourages his white robed wizards to seek out truth, using their magic to defend the innocent and uphold justice. Now to me, that is right in line with the KoS' way of life. Which is probably why they only opened up the Mage Auxiliary to White Robes.
Now dont get me wrong...I know there are good wild sorcerers...and probably lawful ones at that....but their magic is derived from chaos, which up until they have their moment to truly prove themselves, will likely keep them out of the Solamnic Auxiliary
A few points here.
Firstly, I think its misleading to label wild sorcery itself as "Chaotic". Certainly, this power was re-infused into the world by the actions of the god Ionthas ( popularly known as "Chaos" ), but the origin of a thing does not necessarily define the nature of a thing. Its better to label sorcery as being "primal" rather than "chaotic" in nature for this reason. Given that arcane ambient spellcasters may still potentially cast spells with the Lawful descriptor ( nothing published so far in the new DL setting says they can't ), there obviously isn't any chaotic taint strong enough to affect the mechanics of sorcerous magic.
Secondly, the Knights of the Thorn demonstrate that the practice of sorcery is perfectly viable within the bounds of a rigidly Lawful and honour-bound organization. You can also bet that the Grey Robes will welcome with open arms renegade wizards as well as the usual sorcerers into the fold; it doesn't make military sense for the Solamnics not to recruit a balanced mix of focused and ambient spellcasters in order to better counter the Thorn Knights.
Thirdly, there have been sorcerers in the Solamnic Auxiliary for some time, definitely since before the War of Souls. Despite their loyal service to the Knighthood, are they to be cast aside if they don't bow down to the will of the White Robes? Seems like a poor reward for loyalty and devotion to the cause.
As a final aside, mysticism can be just as destructive as sorcery. Think about how much damage a chaotic evil mystic with the Storm or Fire domains could cause. And yet mystics are eligible for full entry into the Knighthood, including eventually the Order of the Rose itself.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I cant believe that no one gets it! Almost no one....
THe KoS are all about law and order...I mean come on! How many volumes does the Measure take up? 37 wasnt it?
Given that the Measure contains, as I have seen all of these mentioned at various points:
1) The rules of conduct becoming of a knight written by Vinas Solamnus
2) 1000 years of refinements to the measure as their responsibilities increased, and Solamnia gained increasing power.
3) 1000 years of Knight's trials, in which judgements on the measure were ruled upon.
4) Commentary and Jurist opinion on various parts of the measure, which had legal significance.
Hell, 37 volumes would be gloriously clean and precise for such a legal code. 500 volumes would still be manageable and more reasonable.
The Knighthood needs this legal code and code of conduct in order to function properly. Especially given that they are entrenched in the power structure that rules Solamnia itself. If Liam Ehrling simply decided to throw out the measure out of hand, he is also junking out 1000 years of collected wisdom. Secondly, he has probably simplified it by removing the influence of different schools of thought from these legal texts, which means a more biased, rather than balanced, approach to conduct and governence.
Besides, everyone knew that it was the spirit that had gone out of the Knighthood. It was not that it needed government reform, but a return to faith and the spirit of honour. They regained that through Sturm's example in the War of the Lance.
It was, in my opinion, one of the blunders of the 5th Age to ignore this. Or someone wanted to make a point about how institutions are corrupt by their very nature, which is ludicrous 60's baggage. Institutions are a reflection of the people who create and maintain them.
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
Thirdly, there have been sorcerers in the Solamnic Auxiliary for some time, definitely since before the War of Souls.
Again, this was retconned with the SAM write-up in Age of Mortals, which suggests that arcane spellcasters are not allowed in until after the War of Souls.
My own compromise on that is that they allowed in sorcerers at first, but when the gods of magic returned, they switched to using wizards.
Of course, one has to ask how many arcane spellcasters are in the Solamnic Auxiliary as it is. Not many, I would presume.
As a final aside, mysticism can be just as destructive as sorcery. Think about how much damage a chaotic evil mystic with the Storm or Fire domains could cause. And yet mystics are eligible for full entry into the Knighthood, including eventually the Order of the Rose itself.
Maybe so, but the knighthood is undergoing a mass conversion of sorts and switching back to godly magic.
I think the Knights of Solamnia used ambient magic out of necessity. Now that the gods are back, the knighthood is bringing itself back to centuries-old religious traditions.
There will, of course, be some younger individuals in the knighthood who knew nothing other than mysticism, so they may not be willing to change.
Back on topic...
Right now, we know what Heroes of Sorcery says about Solamnic Auxiliary Sorcerers. We also know that Age of Mortals is a bit of a retcon to this by saying that the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage prestige class is for wizards only.
Judging by the opinions expressed on this thread, I doubt we'll reach a consensus. It's become a bit of a tennis match. My advice is to take the role, and apply it as you will, whether to sorcerers, white robes, or both. It all depends on how you view Dragonlance.
If we would have gotten a Knighthood Synod that basically decided these things, then perhaps the case would have been stronger as to whether or not the Knighthood is really converting back to Kiri-Jolith or that the Sorcerers have been booted out of the Auxillary.
Then, we'd like to know what the backlash was to all of this.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Of course, one has to ask how many arcane spellcasters are in the Solamnic Auxiliary as it is. Not many, I would presume.
Well especially since in the storyline there are only less than 20 wizards active in the world at this time...
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I believe what I have been told the number was 16
Better put in some spoiler space....
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When the wizards are summoned in Wizards' Conclave, there's a little over 20. I thought everyone would survive, and there'd magically be 21 by books' end.
However, some of the wizards in the book were killed. This left only 16.
There may be other wizards out there, but that's doubtful. They would either have to ignore the summons (meaning they are probably renegade as it is) or they were completely unable to come. And if Willim the Black, an imprisoned blinded dwarf, can make it, then by Solinari the others can make it too! ;)