In short, I agree in principle: there's more out there.
On the other hand, civilization didn't really have a chance to spread far beyond the Pristine Tower (remember humans on Earth took tens of thousands of years to spread across the planet, then started civilization - Athas was a bit accelerated, in that sense). This doesn't mean there aren't far-flung civilizations out there, just that they would be rare.
Part of the beauty of Athas is the unknown. Basically, people don't leave their cities because of the Great Unknown. People don't cross the Silt Sea because of the Great Unknown. People don't go to the far South or far North for the same reason. Athas is isolated, but it's partially self-imposed. Keeping all those power-brokers in close proximity makes things, and keeps things, interesting.
Originally posted by Elonarc
No, it is not. That's what I thought first, too. The map I mean is much larger.
Only one of that magnitude on his site that I know of.
Originally posted by Elonarc
No, it is not. That's what I thought first, too. The map I mean is much larger.
Go here and check the Maps section for "Athas part" and for "Athas' Kings Age".
Originally posted by Elonarc
No, it is not. That's what I thought first, too. The map I mean is much larger.
http://www.warbozz.dk/graphic/fantasy_adnd/darksun/maps/athas-0.gif
In short, this is what's canon:
1) The Tablelands are in the Southern Hemisphere.
2) The far end of the Deadlands was once tundra.
3) The Sunrise Sea/of Silt is circular and the land mass (mostly?) surrounds it.
4) Get this: it likely gets hotter the farther North you go. The equator is likely uninhabitable.
Beyond that, have fun.
According to Brax, there's three continents on Athas. One on the far side of the Silt Sea (since they're connected, think of it as kind of a North/South America thing - it's one land mass, but it's considered two), the "known" Athas and a bit more (Tablelands, Crimson Savannah, Dead Lands, etc). The final continent lies far to the North on the other side of the equator.
To stop the flame fest before it starts, I'm not sure where Brax got his info from, but it seemed well-informed, so I went with it. I'm not going to fill in the little details after what happened last time, but that should get you started.
4) Get this: it likely gets hotter the farther North you go. The equator is likely uninhabitable
. . . . by lame arsed humans anyway. Doesn't mean there ain't much there. The region I use alot in my home game covers some of the equatorial region (just to the south of it), but no 'mammals' (humanoids) abide there. Instead its the stomping grounds of reptilian races and strange insects people. Of course, these races have a hard time living in the 'polar' regions like the Tablelands . . .
Anyhow, I would love to hear from Brax on his source (not that I would doubt him much). Just to satisfy a bit of curiosity.
Originally posted by Pennarin
Go here and check the Maps section for "Athas part" and for "Athas' Kings Age".
I've always liked those maps and they seem very realistic.
Not sure what everyone's issue was with those maps, wasn't around in those days I guess, or was asleep or something, heh.
Originally posted by CyricFirehands
Screw these sorcerer-kings and dragons, i'm moving to the other side of the planet, suckers. :D
North is your best bet, or East, if you can fly.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
To stop the flame fest before it starts, I'm not sure where Brax got his info from, but it seemed well-informed, so I went with it. I'm not going to fill in the little details after what happened last time, but that should get you started.
Oh
could you just theorise on what posibly could be there? 
PleaseOn to what I drew for Brax, it was fairly basic and I could even post it when I get home. I made it as a "skin" for a sphere, and, if you go to one of the links in my signature, it's wrapped around the pic of Athas, so you can get some idea.
Basically, there's a huge fen NW of the Crimson Savannah. It's shallow water throughout, but might provide some of that water everyone's been talking about.
The Far Shore (which is project #3 on my list), is roughly twice the size of the Western shore (Tablelands + Crimson Savannah, etc). I have plans for a complex civilization in this area, but none of it is official or involved in the emails with Brax.
Beyond this, closer to the equator, is a continent that is a bit larger than the Tablelands one. While Brax and I didn't go into specifics, this is the most likely source of either a large body of water or other civilizations.
Above the equator is a third continent that has more mountains and lava. It's largely isolated since anyone would have to cross the equator. Also, civilization just didn't have that much time to spread that far. Would be a good place for ssurrans, but not much else.
Then you have the vast Sea of Silt. Everything else is silt, but here's an idea for you: what if there's a race living out there under the Sea that just hasn't moved into the Tyr region? Maybe they don't know about it, maybe they're a leftover from the Blue Age, now warped and twisted from the changes to their environment (like the silt horrors). Haven't pursued this line, just an idea.
I took it upon myself to start mapping out peices of the barren world that my players could use every so often - I linked these regions together with a system of portals called the Untended Gates. These gates were used, by the Champions to teleport whole armies across the continents of Athas. This way i was able to create pocket maps without having to provide an overall map of the planet. My maps are grossly exagerated - the Athasians understood horizontal distances, but not vertical... One Pterran map i gave them only charted mountain tops and that's it (Pterrans and Pterrax in my campaign are reversed)!The idea of a civilization, or rather, pockets of civilization, having a practical map of their world was silly to my thinking, so I just created regional maps and even those weren't that accurate - only giving generalized locations. One such map had the PCs lost because there was a mountain in the way that wasn't on the map (not thinking of influence of magic on the landscape)
I just have fun with it, and i always encourage everyone to do the same.
Keep gaming!
Computers are dead; RPGs forever!
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
What if the tablelands are equatorial? I mean what if that is the hottest climate,
Well according to official sources it's not, it's one of the coolest regions, minus the North Pole which might be somewhat icey if I remember correctly.
The further north you go away from the Tablelands, the hotter it gets and then drops down again the further north you get away from the equator.
This is the map I was writing about.
Heh - that's the one I made with Brax's approval. It's a skin that can be wrapped around a 3D sphere. The link's gone because the original was a flaming huge pic on my website with limited space (something I'm also going to correct once I move).
That map is as official as it gets. The Tablelands/Saragar/Ur Draxa area is 100% accurate as it is a shunken down scan of all the DS maps (another project of mine - later abandoned because it's illegal). The one place Brax and I disagreed was the size: I felt that Athas should be larger and that the entire thing should be stretched out a bit more.
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
Night crawler, YOuve got to do me one better then that. YOU cant just say "...No... ...its official..." Then repeat what has already been said. I need at least a vague idea were to look, and how official? 2nd ed, or 3rd. Anything 3rd ed I take with a grain of salt. But 2nd ed is as the bible to the pope. Thanks
Uh, everything I have stated to this point *is* official, otherwise I say "take it with a grain of salt" or other similar saying. don't believe me, look up my past posts, sheesh.
Everything I have stated is info from the designers that actually, I don't know, designed Dark Sun, and were conversations I had at GenCon, as well as pieces here and there from SotDL (Secrets of the Deadlands), which is all 2nd ed material.
Btw, you can do whatever you want with your DS, you don't have to go by official, so if you don't like what some of the official stuff is doing, then change it, that's your perogative.
Originally posted by Elonarc
This is the map I was writing about.
Sorry, wasn't that I didn't believe you, just couldn't remember which one you were referring too, but now I remember.
Thanks for finding that again!
Great job Dawn!
Everything I have stated is info from the designers that actually, I don't know, designed Dark Sun, and were conversations I had at GenCon
It would be great if we could ever get some of those designers in for a little Q&A session. Granted, it still wouldn't be nearly so 'official' as in print material to some, but it may at least offer some insights not otherwise available.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
It would be great if we could ever get some of those designers in for a little Q&A session. Granted, it still wouldn't be nearly so 'official' as in print material to some, but it may at least offer some insights not otherwise available.
Amen there.
Going to get with Paul and see if we can't write one up from past Cons he has been to, including last year's when I went with him.
Especially since I missed Denning cause I had to work. He seemed to be pleased with what Athas.org was doing.
1) Green Fields no more desert.... And lots of water
2) No Dragon Kings....
Im just playin, When is Gen Con, Im debating on going.
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
When is Gen Con, Im debating on going.
http://www.gencon.com
Wasn't too hard. ;)
g3nkon?
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
YOu 21? Ill buy you a beer.
Bout 7 years passed that.
Cool!
P.S. Its not gona suck like coast con did this year will it. Cause I will kill..... Or stay an a drunkin stupor
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
YOu 21? Ill buy you a beer.
Your american bear is a bit like having sex in a canoo… It's F¨ç?ing close to water! lol. (lucky americans, with their Gen-Cons and the websites doing their prices in US$)
Back to the matter on hand. I read somewhere, which may have been in (please don't shoot me) Paizo's DS, that Athas is larger than our world and has a verry large amount of silicon-based compounds. Perhaps there may be silicon based life one one of the other continents…
There may have been cone more info in the article about this (the composition of the planet) , I can't remember though.
P.S. Dawnstealer, nice map. would there be any info on what's what? posibly a scale?
P.P.S. AussieAussieAussie!!!!!!!
Originally posted by The People
Your american bear is a bit like having sex in a canoo… It's F¨ç?ing close to water! lol. (lucky americans, with their Gen-Cons and the websites doing their prices in US$)
This is why my friends in Germany ship me a case of the good beer every 3 months, for the last 4 years. Nice, German dark lagers, like Schofferhoffer. Of course, there's also the Permisens brewed "Perminator" which is 40 proof beer. The only thing I know better than German Beer is Irish Beer. But I don't know anyone in Ireland who could ship me kegs of Guniess.
Nothing is funnier than giving an american exchange student beer.:D
There is only one promised land for beer and that's mine, 300+ different beers for a country the size of a napkin.
Bu I wanna go to gencon. No fair.Hurrumph.
I love Australia
Tha Nomad
[b]As for silicon based life... That seems like a scientific taboo. But then again so is magic, so if you creat anything neet tell me, But I think all of the Silo/life, is in nirvana, or limbo....[b](Dieties and dimi gods AD&D)
I am so working on making silicon based life for Athas. I'm doing the research right now. Yay!.
I've heard several references on an athesian underdark. does anyone have any info on this?
P.S. how hot does the equator get?
P.P.S. Us Aussies are an indubitably tough bunch, dear chap. For we are decended from England's crooks, rejects and Irish combined with the cultural diversity gained by several groups of refugees from several differant war torn countrys. A truly great land.
I wonder which Champion has the army of half-giants. That would have made anyone run in utter fear.
I am so working on making silicon based life for Athas. I'm doing the research right now. Yay!.
You may have some problems doing actual research on it. There's no studies I know of that take a real look at what silicate or silicone based life would be like overall, only wether or not its possible to use silcates and silicones as the building blocks for life the way that carbon is the basis for earth based biochemistry. Granted, alot of newer studies show that it is possible (especially for silicones which, unfortunately, are not naturally occuring). You could take the crystaline angle that many SF writers have with silica, but the problems of simple movement of a crystaline structure (like basic quartz SiO2) come into play. Just try and avoid any research then focuses on such fuzzy logic like H. Beam Piper's Uller Uprising (decent book, bad chemistry). A lot of people jumped onto Piper's silicone-based biochemistry without checking into it much.
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
The current Athasians are touch because their ancestors where the products of naturer benders in the Champion's Army....at least that is my theory.
I wonder which Champion has the army of half-giants. That would have made anyone run in utter fear.
Umm.... there would be no Nature-Benders in the Champion's armies. Why? Because Nature-benders were outcast Rhulisti from the Blue Age, and Rajaat did not permit his Champions to even remotely do anything for or against the Halflings - he protected them himself. Lifeshaing is a technique that is most likely lost to the ages, short of what the Rhul-Thaun of the Jagged Cliffs do. You're basically attempting to mix two independant time periods of Athas, which have thousands of years of difference together, and it would break many of the fluff, history and backstories of the setting by doing that. If you want to, fine - but please, understand, you are probably not gonna find much support for such a thing on these forums.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
You may have some problems doing actual research on it. There's no studies I know of that take a real look at what silicate or silicone based life would be like overall, only wether or not its possible to use silcates and silicones as the building blocks for life the way that carbon is the basis for earth based biochemistry. Granted, alot of newer studies show that it is possible (especially for silicones which, unfortunately, are not naturally occuring). You could take the crystaline angle that many SF writers have with silica, but the problems of simple movement of a crystaline structure (like basic quartz SiO2) come into play. Just try and avoid any research then focuses on such fuzzy logic like H. Beam Piper's Uller Uprising (decent book, bad chemistry). A lot of people jumped onto Piper's silicone-based biochemistry without checking into it much.
Don't worry, I'm not taking the 'crystal men' approach, I'm actually researching this stuff. There is a new theory that states that there may be silicon based lifeforms deep within our own planet, because the temeratuers and pressures down there may well be enough to allow more complex silicone compounds to form. this is why I was asking about the underdark and the temperaure on the equator.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Umm.... there would be no Nature-Benders in the Champion's armies. Why? Because Nature-benders were outcast Rhulisti from the Blue Age, and Rajaat did not permit his Champions to even remotely do anything for or against the Halflings - he protected them himself. Lifeshaing is a technique that is most likely lost to the ages, short of what the Rhul-Thaun of the Jagged Cliffs do. You're basically attempting to mix two independant time periods of Athas, which have thousands of years of difference together, and it would break many of the fluff, history and backstories of the setting by doing that. If you want to, fine - but please, understand, you are probably not gonna find much support for such a thing on these forums.
I know next to nothing about life shaping or the blue age, however, it is still possible that if not by nature bending means, then by magical means did the Champions enhance their armies.
Silicon life is possible. However, carbon the the most flexible and abundant element for life. It is possible that there is no silicon life in the universe. If silicon life where to evolve on a world, carbon based life forms could replace it. Either by the evolution of new life, or present silicon life using carbon to get an edge. This would happen at the proto-life stage. The only way silicon based life would have an advantage is if the environment favored silicon more than carbon (Earth's favors carbon). Perhaps a world with extreme gravity would favor silicon life, however, those are much more difficult to host life.
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
I know next to nothing about life shaping or the blue age, however, it is still possible that if not by nature bending means, then by magical means did the Champions enhance their armies.
I'm not arguing that the Champions couldn't have enhanced their armies. I was just arguing that it could not be by lifeshaping means.
Silicon life is possible. However, carbon the the most flexible and abundant element for life. It is possible that there is no silicon life in the universe. If silicon life where to evolve on a world, carbon based life forms could replace it. Either by the evolution of new life, or present silicon life using carbon to get an edge. This would happen at the proto-life stage. The only way silicon based life would have an advantage is if the environment favored silicon more than carbon (Earth's favors carbon). Perhaps a world with extreme gravity would favor silicon life, however, those are much more difficult to host life.
I'm not about to get into a religious argument over this. Let's just leave it that I do not agree with, or support any Real-World example that implies some form of evolution exists in the Real World. A fantasy setting, fine, but there is no substantiated proof that shows evolution exists, in either the macro or micro sense in the Real World. It's an interesting religion, but I don't follow it. And please, let's not head down that path. I don't want to get into a heated debate over the merits or lack thereof of evolution.
However, I myself have used silicon-based life forms in other settings before, making them have a more metalloid-like quality to them, a sort of dull silvery sheen, and of course, they were substantially denser (due to the difference in atomic weight between carbon and silicon). Due to this, physically, they were superior in stats to their carbon-based equivalents.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I'm not about to get into a religious argument over this. Let's just leave it that I do not agree with, or support any Real-World example that implies some form of evolution exists in the Real World. A fantasy setting, fine, but there is no substantiated proof that shows evolution exists, in either the macro or micro sense in the Real World.
Well, just about any decently written Biology book out there proves evolution to be true.
I'm as spiritualist (read religious) as the next guy, but I let that give way to logic and science when it proves me wrong.
When all else fails read talkorigins.
http://talkorigins.org/
However, I myself have used silicon-based life forms in other settings before, making them have a more metalloid-like quality to them, a sort of dull silvery sheen, and of course, they were substantially denser (due to the difference in atomic weight between carbon and silicon). Due to this, physically, they were superior in stats to their carbon-based equivalents.
Same here, like the living steel and guanduan greater oozes or whatever they are called. Hell I had a whole ooze/silicon based race on Athas at one time that mimiced what the T1000 could do, and pretty much had my own cloning wars going on because of it.
Doubt I will go into that much detail this time around though.
Perhaps a world with extreme gravity would favor silicon life, however, those are much more difficult to host life.
Earth favors carbon, but its not as if the Earth doesn't have an abundant amount of silca material to work with. It just didn't have some of the other materials that would have had a an impact at chemically breaking up silica enough to get anything worthwhile out of it. Silca based (or better, silicone based) biochemsitry isn't going to be able to burn fuel the same way carbon based life does. It would still take a vastly different atmosphere as well as a moderate abundance of liquid chemicals to work the process with. One very interesting thing I remember reading was talked about silicones forming on a world that had sulferic acid seas (which does break up alot of things, but not straight-chain hydrocarbons, alkines, and other compounds that it merely ionizes, but doesn't break up) that could work as a life giving liquid (not very life giving to us though). Think Venus, but cool it down a tad, give it less CO2 in the begining and a lot more sulfer; or take Earth with a much hotter star (like Athas ;)), but heavier in sulfer, with more intense photodissociate a lot of the hydrogen early on; the remaining oxygen left behind oxidises the sulfer past sulfer dioxide and onto sulfer trioxide (SO3), which then reacts with any remaining water to get sulfuric acid (H2SO4). So, with a silicate or silicone based biochemistry, with sulfuric acid as its life giving chemical for energy burning (its not as bad as it sounds, oxygen is actually toxic to the cells of carbon based life, but our cells have a protective structure, so its not as much of a stretch). The Silicone chains (Si - O - Si - O) would form up with 'organic' chains (carbon - hydrocarbon - oxygen) that would still remain. You have a wacked out lifeform in a wacked out environment.
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
Why cant religion and science just get along... Im a firm believer in that the two can mix and mingle easily.
Never said I didn't agree.
However, not going to sit idly by while someone states that evolution can't be proven, especially if it's a friend that I respect, heh.
Call me crazy...
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
Why cant religion and science just get along... Im a firm believer in that the two can mix and mingle easily.
Mmm, I personnaly suggest getting your hands on the late Stephen Jay Gould's Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life. Gould was a scientist, a great defender of evolution and its many problems, a curator for invertebrate paleontology at Harvard's Museum of Comparative Zoology, in which university he also taught geology and zoology.
The book describes Gould's principle which is nonoverlapping magisteria. Learn more on the net!
;)
Creatioism: Doesnt explain fossils records, BUT could hold up on its own.
Science: Does not explain how some protons neutrons and electrons, gather together and get YOU, Me, and the rest. Hell if it was as simple as atheist say, all computers could react independintly.
Thats my theory and Im stickin to it
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Well, just about any decently written Biology book out there proves evolution to be true.
I'm as spiritualist (read religious) as the next guy, but I let that give way to logic and science when it proves me wrong.
When all else fails read talkorigins.
http://talkorigins.org/
The funny thing is, everything the biology books claims to be proof, is in fact not. Horses have been shown not to follow the line of evolution as textbooks claim. While there are some physiological structures that appear similar between species, the genetic code is completely different. I can, if needed, actually provide books - both written by evolutionists, and those against evolution, which show that repeatedly, even though something has been disproven, it is still put into the textbooks. Also that over 80% of the dinosaur species that have been named, are actually a fossil structure that had already been identified, but simply wasn't in the strata that the scientist expected. Or that there is absolutely no fossil evidence, genetic DNA evidence, or pretty much anything whatsoever that substantiates or even remotely proves that one kind of creature evolved from another. The current standpoint by high-level evolutionist scientists is that they have ti find something to prove it now, since everything else has been shown to be wrong. Evidence definitely is weighed heavily against evolution. But as evolutionists are primarily in charge of getting the information out, so be it. Evolution cannot, by the very definition, be a scientific theory, as there is no way to use any empirical testing system to prove, or more to the point, disprove it. Theories, by definition, are scientific hypothoses that have wihstood several tests, and have not been disproven.
But, I'm gonna retract from this, only because this isn't the forum to discuss it. Once I get my site up and going once more, I'll probably have a section for such arguments...
Creatioism: Doesnt explain fossils records, BUT could hold up on its own.
Actually, evolution does absolutely nothing to explain the fossil record. If you wanna see how, look for the book, Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, by Luther D. Sunderland, published by Master Book Publishers. He emphatically does not support creationism in that book, but he does point out a lot of the problems the evolution "theory" has, and why evolutionist scientists would rather the fossil record did not exist. Also just how much misinformation is taught in the public school system.
Science: Does not explain how some protons neutrons and electrons, gather together and get YOU, Me, and the rest. Hell if it was as simple as atheist say, all computers could react independintly.
Thats my theory and Im stickin to it
The problem you seem to have is that you think that evolution is science. It is not, there is no empirical way to test evolutionism, any more than there is any way to test creationism. Science is defined as being able to be empirically tested - like, for instance, gravity can be empirically tested, and has been for centuries. Evolution is no more a theory than creation is. A theory is a hypothesis (ie: educated guess) that has been tested, and has yet to be proven wrong. Once a theory is proven wrong, it no longer is a theory. It can be adjusted slightly, but after a handful of adjustments and it still being proven incorrect, it should be discarded, as it's definitely work int he wrong direction. A scientific Law is a theory that has been tested for so many years, scientists have finally given up on testing it, and it becomes a Law. Gravity, as I mentioned, is Law, so is Thermodynamics, and many other things.
-----------
Anyways, before this thread gets out of control, and locked by good ol' Duckman, back on topic - in a Fantasy world, you don't necesarily need to follow reality, hence the term "fantasy". I prefer to have some reasonable explanation that most people could accept when defining things, and Silicon is close enough to Carbon on the periodic table, and it has similar enough properties that it's a reasonable substitution for a fantasy setting, at least to me. Some others may find it as being too far-fetched, but I don't personally.
Is it based on creationism, evolution or both?
You jumped pretty fast to big conclusions here. Its a philosophical work, exposing a principle by which a person who is both religious and aware of science's reality can marry the two.
Not to mention, that IF evolution is correct and God is real, and he wanted us to understand it, the bible would have been a library instead of something small, and easily carried.
Many of those who do not consider themselves fundamentalists, and those ecclesiasts that are well educated (astronomy, physics, biology, botany, zoology, psychology) see the Bible as an alegorical tale, not the actual words of God given to man.
Don't forget that there is enormous difficulty to know what in the Bible is original (i.e. that partains to the period during which the revelations were supposedly made) and what dates from later on. Some of those late additions, and removals, were not made for enlightenment but for pratical purposes (like gain, the size the book had to be, which gospels the authorities wanted to be taught to the population, inventing a revelation from God so as to divert pilgrims from Mont St-Michel to a nearby abbey who is financially struggling, ...). Believers who know all those sordid details must make a personnal choice to either have faith in all that the Bible teaches, good and bad, or to embark on a journey that will take the rest of their life, in which they will try to reconcele their faith with the realities of the temporal world, be they historical or scientific.
Science: Does not explain how some protons neutrons and electrons, gather together and get YOU, Me, and the rest.
All I can say is that at the turning of the century a hundred years ago, scientists were in awe of their knowledge - which had reached a lull in cosmology, physics and the biological sciences - and some even went as far as suggesting that man had reached the end of the acquisition of human-comprehensible knowledge. Yet a hundred years later there as been a dozen major changes in every field, plus the apparition of new fields, and changes in the ways of thinking of the everyday man that brought in new possibilities previously unimaginable. Man changes. What science can't explain today, it will tomorrow. It won't tell you why you're feeling angst this morning though, that is outside of the scope of science, its 'magisteria' as Gould would put it. And do not equate the scientists themselves with science, one is human with all its feelings, failings and preconceptions, while the other is a collection of imperfect but always refined models, hypotheses and theories whose applications you're actually looking at right now.
Hell if it was as simple as atheist say, all computers could react independintly.
I don't get what you there, can you elaborate?
P.S. By the way did you check out the book online? Please don't make your mind before hand, check things out before.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Actually, evolution does absolutely nothing to explain the fossil record.
I disagree, and not sure what your sources are, going to leave it at that for now though.
If you wanna see how, look for the book, Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, by Luther D. Sunderland, published by Master Book Publishers. He emphatically does not support creationism in that book, but he does point out a lot of the problems the evolution "theory" has, and why evolutionist scientists would rather the fossil record did not exist. Also just how much misinformation is taught in the public school system.
Nope, he just practiced creationism science in real life and was "fighting the good fight" to get it back in schools.
http://www.creationism.org/books/sunderland/
Which tells me the book is probably biased towards creationism science whether he tried really hard to not make it so or not.
I'll get back to this once you get your boards up though, don't want this thread closed.
Will give me time to gather some notes up. :D
Just a suggestion, but, regardless of my own personal views, I'd rather not have interesting threads be locked and shut down for being against the TOS, so can we please find a different medium in which to discuss in a friendly fashion our views of these matters rather than these boards? Seriously, if anyone wants to further this discussion, and can be open minded enough to not miff me off in a nice little discussion (not debate), they can get with me on MSN (Mach, [email]darkstarfalling@sbcglobal.net[/email]). I'm more than willing to do a little group chat about it, but just not here.
and Silicon is close enough to Carbon
Magnesium and Calcium are pretty close too, but you sure don't want to a docter confusing that in a bone marrow transplant; and which tastes much better in milk? What I was trying to show was that if your researching something for a fantasy setting, things get rather complex, hence my suggestion innitially to throw science to the curb and just make it sound cool, which agrees with your views in part.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Magnesium and Calcium are pretty close too, but you sure don't want to a docter confusing that in a bone marrow transplant; and which tastes much better in milk? What I was trying to show was that if your researching something for a fantasy setting, things get rather complex, hence my suggestion innitially to throw science to the curb and just make it sound cool, which agrees with your views in part.
Lynn Abbey used cinnabar (mercury sulfide: HgS) as a fuel source for the latent magic of her character in Cinnabar Shadows. Everything goes in fantasy.
Originally posted by The People
Athas is larger than our world and has a verry large amount of silicon-based compounds. Perhaps there may be silicon based life one one of the other continents…
There may have been cone more info in the article about this (the composition of the planet) , I can't remember though.
Could someone explaine what's silicon life form?? (all I know about silicon is computer chips and female aparatus;) )
Put specifically: what could be the link with Darksun and silicon life form??
Thanks and sorry about my ignorance.
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
Could someone explaine what's silicon life form?? (all I know about silicon is computer chips and female aparatus;) )
Really! Didn't know that!Earthly life is based around the carbon atom, while chemists have theorized for a long time that the silicon atom, with its similar chemical properties, could reach levels of organic chemistry coming close to carbon chemistry. It has never been found on Earth though. But it may be found on other planets one day, planets with more hospitable conditions for silicon-based life to arise.
Originally posted by Pennarin
Earthly life is based around the carbon atom, while chemists have theorized for a long time that the silicon atom, with its similar chemical properties, could reach levels of organic chemistry coming close to carbon chemistry. It has never been found on Earth though. But it may be found on other planets one day, planets with more hospitable conditions for silicon-based life to arise.
Alright! And what sort of life form would it produce??
P.S. I'm not sure if your realy laghing at me but anyway, no big deal. It's just that (maybe my english is playing tricks on me) in frensh there are mamal implats based on silicon gel and if I'm not mistaking computer chips are silicon-base(platform or circuit: not sure)
You can see silicon (Si) in this english Periodic Table.
http://chemlab.pc.maricopa.edu/periodic/periodic.html
There's also this frensh one.
http://www.dotapea.com/annexe1.htm
Its "silicium" (still Si) in french
I was wondering if anyone thinks it is possible for another human civilization on Athas, un-touched by Rajaat (well aside from their f*cked up enviroment) that just goes about their days?
Where might they be?
What would they be like?
PS: during the talk of Beers, where were the Canucks? I know there are a couple Canadiens on here, represent!
Athasians, of any race, during the Green Age but before the Time of Magic might have left in boats to cross the sea and made camps that are still occupied to this day.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Magnesium and Calcium are pretty close too, but you sure don't want to a docter confusing that in a bone marrow transplant; and which tastes much better in milk? What I was trying to show was that if your researching something for a fantasy setting, things get rather complex, hence my suggestion innitially to throw science to the curb and just make it sound cool, which agrees with your views in part.
Well, the thing is: On the periodic table of elements, Silicon is immediately below Carbon. Now, the columns there, if I remember correctly, represent elements that have similarities, which is why all the noble elements are lined up. And on the flip-side are the elements that are the most... shall we say... chemically reactive - magnesium, hydrogen, etc. The big difference chemically between carbon and silicon is that Silicon has 8 more protons in it's nucleus, and is actually classified as a metalloid (a non-metal element that has metal-like qualities, once again, if I remember correctly). However, both chemically bond similarly, and can build similar chains of chemicals, with roughly the same set of elements. Once again, it's been a few years since I messed with Chemistry, but I do remember that Ihad first started developing my silicon-based life-forms for the game I was working on, while studying chemistry.
Now, sure, that's about the extent of (and probably even a bit flawed) the science involved in this - as there is no evidence of silicon-based life forms in the Real World. So, now comes extrapolation - since Silicon bonds to other elements similarly to Carbon, it's not too far outside of reason to fudge it slightly and say that a creature could be developed using Silicon along similar lines as they can with Carbon. Now, that does mean that you kinda have to disregard several other chemical details, like the fact that just because elements line up in the same column of the periodic table, doesn't mean they are even remotely the same. But, I felt this was fun to screw around with, after all, in a non-real world, you don't necessarily have to follow the rules of nature exactly - but that doesn't mean you can't use something from reality as the basis for which you extrapolate your idea.
So, I started to think of what were the differences that would be found. Well, the obvious one would be that a silicon-based humanoid would be denser and heavier than a carbon-based one, because silicon is, well, heavier and stuff. Also, I even decided that they'd be slightly paler, with a sort of metallic-colored look. And I don't mean paler color as in the skin color differences between various humans, but paler as in the difference between the black color of carbon, and the gray color of pure silicon.
Of course, for my race, I made them unnatural. Basically, they were an experiment gone too far, done by yet another alien race attempting to advance humans and prepare them against otherworldly problems. They "abducted" several humans from Earth, and excruciatingly converted them to being silicon-based, to make them stronger, denser and more resiliant. The problem was that these humans needed an entire ecology that was compatable - they found carbon-based food to be just as distastful, repulsive and actually harmful to them as we do silicon (how often do people survive off of grains of sand, or glass, or eating computer chips?) - so, an entire world was terraformed for them to let them survive, and they developed as an independant species of human. Later, in my setting's history, Terran humans encountered this bizarre breed of humans, calling themselves Cesian humans. Two cousin races, divided because of the meddling of a third (which is a race of beings that the Cesians have categorized in their cultures as Demons). The two races were available, side-by-side in my setting (and, consiquently, still are, when I dig it out), but the Cesians cannot eat the same things as the Terrans do. They also are heavier, denser, and slightly stronger than Terrans, which is an advantage they get, sort of balanced out by their nutritional requirements.
See, Silicon-based life can be written in, had have just enough of a nugget of realism added to explain how they came to be, to suspend reality for the players, and continue the fun of the game.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Heh, no problems Jihn. Your on the right track. Silicon is found in . . . female augmentations (though for safety reasons, they now use saline solution, salt water) and in computer chips.
Silicon does not equate to Silicone.
Silicone has Silicon in it, but it's not the same thing.
Silicon is found not only in computer chips, and is one of the chemicals that make up silicone, it's also the primarly element found in glass, and in sand.
since Silicon bonds to other elements similarly to Carbon
Somewhat. But as I understand it, they don't quite bond with the same elements. Silicone bonds with organic elements, while carbon bonds with metalic elements.
silicon-based humanoid would be denser and heavier than a carbon-based one, because silicon is, well, heavier and stuff.
We may be carbon based, buts its such a small fraction of what make up our bodies that if you subbed something else, anything else, in equal amounts, it probably wouldn't change our weight much. Now, if you had a different liquid chemical in the biochemistry other than water, then you'd surely have a difference in weight. In my own silicone (oh, sorry for leaving the 'e' off as you pointed out, silica, silicon, silicone, etc) based study, I was using the sulfiric acid as a liquid base and sulfer dioxide as the main breathing element. At some point, I got lost in the chemistry and geology and biology and physics and . . . I gave up.
All in all, I do still think that you need to, at some point, suspend the science in order to get to the game ;)
Silicone based life, while theoretically possible, is a improbibliliy for numerous reasons. These iclude the fact that silicone does not readily form compounds that are as complex or long as carbon, thus making it harder for it to support life. It has been theorised, however, that silicone may well be able to produce more coomplex compounds when it is exposed to greater pressures and temperatures. This has lead some scientests to beleive that it may be possible for silicone based life to exist further towards the center of our own planet. This is why I was inquiering about the athesian underdark, although my interest in that topic has evolved somewhat.
If silicone based life did exist, it would be slower, denser and more brittle, because silicone compounds are more brittle than carbon-based ones. One of the most interesting things about siicon based life is that it would be unable to have a respatory process that imitates ours, because silicon dioxide (the silicon-based equivilant of carbon dioxide, our respatory bi-product) is a solid. this would present some interesting chalanges. perhabs ome could use something like a 'snail trail', or the respatory process could occur through the 'skin' of the creature, meaning that it constantly flakes off small peices of silicon dioxide. It mat even find a way to utilise this waste prodict as armor, or a chitin-like coating.
You see, I am taking this sreiously.
On the Subject of a roleplaying game.... If one can have metal golems, or magma golems essintality a .... Ok no cause that would be like calling a car a living thing. Look if a human can live past death, Im sure something as simple as silicon life could be worked out....
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Somewhat. But as I understand it, they don't quite bond with the same elements. Silicone bonds with organic elements, while carbon bonds with metalic elements.
Actually, by definition, an organic compound has Carbon in it. Carbon is what makes something organic. Now, the chemical bonding which they can do is based off their column location on the periodic table, since both are in the same column, they actually bond in similar ways. Not *exactly* the same way, just in similar ways. Just like how Helium and Neon both refuse to bond in similar ways, and Hydrogen and Magnesium bond in similar ways.
We may be carbon based, buts its such a small fraction of what make up our bodies that if you subbed something else, anything else, in equal amounts, it probably wouldn't change our weight much. Now, if you had a different liquid chemical in the biochemistry other than water, then you'd surely have a difference in weight. In my own silicone (oh, sorry for leaving the 'e' off as you pointed out, silica, silicon, silicone, etc) based study, I was using the sulfiric acid as a liquid base and sulfer dioxide as the main breathing element. At some point, I got lost in the chemistry and geology and biology and physics and . . . I gave up.
Well, I had actually shifted all the chemicals down one row on the periodic table. As such, everything about them was heavier.
All in all, I do still think that you need to, at some point, suspend the science in order to get to the game ;)
Of course, as I said - there came a point where I left Science behind and went to just wild imagination.
silicon dioxide (the silicon-based equivilant of carbon dioxide, our respatory bi-product) is a solid
It may sound sick, but there's always depository excretion ('exhale' once or twice per day), or basically shifting the organism to be a large version of a microbe where 'breathing' in the human sense isn't neccessary. I've also read that the structures, once you get them of any decent size, are brittle (which is why alot of early SF used 'crystal men' as a workaround for the brittleness, but they ignored the mobility factor of a crystal structure).
Well, I had actually shifted all the chemicals down one row on the periodic table. As such, everything about them was heavier.
Ahh, I understand you know.
I also tried to work out something using liquid ethane as a thalassogen for the silicone based biochemistry, but I couldn't get it to work out quite right.
Silicone lifeforms - Not likely, but then again, life itself isn't too likely, so take that at face value. D&D is a game, and a fantasy game at that, so you can have a lifeform made out of human feces, if you'd like.
Other civilizations - I've said this before (in this thread, I think), and I'll say it again. Basically, the population on Athas has an artificial starting point. There is only one Pristine Tower, after all. Granted, there were many Rhul Thaun wandering the planet, but they gathered (or the ones that mattered gathered) at the Pristine Tower to fight the Brown Tide and create the other races.
In other words, all intelligent life on Athas that was not Rhul Thaun or Thri-kreen came specifically from the Pristine Tower. Humans on Earth took 50,000 years to spread out from Africa, spread across Africa, Europe, and Asia, then gradually make their way out to Austrailia, North America, and then finally South America. FIFTY thousand years.
In the "official" timeline, the Brown Tide occurred roughly 14,000 years ago. Now a lot of travel could happen in 14,000 years, but is it likely? Populations were likely very low, and the Tablelands is a fair amount of area to cover. Start with the fact that there were not many of the "Rebirth" folks running around, they did not start out with the same advantages that Earth-humans had (massive numbers); it would take the Rebirth races quite a while to spread from their starting point and fill the Tablelands and beyond.
This is not to say that there aren't far-flung colonies or cities, but they would be extremely rare.
Pristine Tower, after all. Granted, there were many Rhul Thaun wandering the planet, but they gathered (or the ones that mattered gathered) at the Pristine Tower to fight the Brown Tide and create the other races
First, I'm hijacking. Sorry.
Second, I still find it hard to think that the entire rest of the planet is either a: a lifeless wasteland, or b: populated by only halflings who never went to the Pristine Tower and kreen leftover from the Blue Age. Rather makes for a boring and static task of making expansions. With the Rebirth, its never stated (that I know of) to have been a localized affair from the begining (although its never stated otherwise). This lets the individual DM control what lay beyond the known regions, and rightly so.
One reason the Rebirth races would expand farther than we think possible is the constant threat from monster/creatures/aberation and also the curse itself from the pristine tower(when you get wounded near the pristine tower there is a good chance something *bad* hapens to you)
The majotiry being afraid of the unknown stayed in the Tableland but the others could have wished for a safer *world* maybe through beleifs(who knows what early beleifs they had at the time) either spiritual or from charlatans or both.
Of course none of us knows exactly what the rebirth races retained from their former selves(Rhulisti) but maybe alot of them had the lust for seafaring. Have you thought that Athasian sea elves could have been one of the races (now extinct, or are they realy) I mean think about it: you have a race (Rhulisti) master of the world who new that to survive they had to change but that doesn't mean that they all had to change into surface dwellers. There were still plenty of water on Athas (the Pristine Tower is in fact quite near the regreted Sunrise sea) And I'm surely not far from the trough since lizard men on Athas are water dwellers.
To me, the Tyr region is not the only continent populated by the known races. But....
I remember someone mentionning that in HIS campaing he had placed several Pristine towers. To me the idea is a bit exagerated but what if there were one or two other towers. What I'm getting at is what if there are totally new races(unknown) on Athas. What if the Rhulisti had no control on what they would become as a race (I mean come on, who would like to become a Kobold After having been a member of a powerfull race like the Rhulisti??)
--The control over the PT was an illusion (look what as happened to the sun) I dont thinkl they had any more control on their*transformation* as a new race.
Timeline:
Surviving nature-masters create the Pristine Tower to destroy the Brown Tide. This action changes the sun from blue to yellow, destroying the halfling civilization and bringing about The Rebirth.
Defilers and Preservers:
To find a way to save the planet, some of the nature masters gathered in the Pristine Tower. They discovered a solution, but it required a vast amount of energy. The only source for such raw power was the sun, but the sapphire brilliance wouldn't give up its energy easily. So the nature masters worked fervidly to change the sun so that its energies could be focused through the tower. With the altered sun's energy, they killed the brown tide that was poisoning the sea. In changing the sun to a brilliant yellow sphere, however, they changed its effects upon the world. The seas began to evaporate, revealing large expanses of dry land.
The Wanderer's Chronicle:
A fetid brown tide spread across the waves, killing everything it touched. Many of the halflings panicked and looked for ways to protect themselves. Some built great subterranean
strongholds. Others fled to the mountain forests. A few, however, remained in Tyr-agi, struggling to find a way to cure the dying sea.
[...]
The halflings used their mastery of nature to manipulate the very building blocks of life from their outpost--a stronghold that would one day come to be called the Pristine Tower. By changing the sun so that its energy could be focused through the tower, the halflings were able to kill the brown tide.
[...]
The sun, once a blazing sphere of brilliant blue, shifted to a radiant yellow ball. Its rays bombarded the planet, causing the brown tide to dissipate. But as the tide dissipated, so did a portion of the endless sea. Dry land--not swamp or even marsh--emerged from beneath the waves to replace the receding water.
From the Pristine Tower, now glowing with the energy of the yellow sun, the halflings worked their technical skills. They initiated a time of spontaneous creation, and this period came to be known as the Rebirth.
During the Rebirth new creatures appeared at an amazing rate, finding life in the shadow of the halflings' glowing tower and spreading across the land.
[...]
Vast forests grew across land that was once submerged, and still more creatures crept about the land.
The halflings' high civilization came to an end, for those who had fled to the mountains and hid underground soon forgot the principles of nature manipulation in the struggle to survive. And the last halfling nature-masters gave this new world its greatest gift: They transformed themselves into new races, becoming humans, demi-humans, and other humanoids so that they could repopulate the world.
I remember someone mentionning that in HIS campaing he had placed several Pristine towers.
That would be me, although the towers are not 100% the same, they worked in coordination to innitiate the Rebirth on a global scale (my own workaround for having other areas populated with Rebirth races). I only ever detailed two others, but left hints and clues in several campaigns that there may be more, as many as seven total.
It may sound sick, but there's always depository excretion ('exhale' once or twice per day), or basically shifting the organism to be a large version of a microbe where 'breathing' in the human sense isn't neccessary.
If you go with the 'twice per day expolsion' method, you would have a life form that used verry small amount of energy. I'm going for diferent methods for different creatures. However I do it, many creatures would leave lumps, chunks or flakes of silicon-dioxide arround. So in comes the Silicon-baseed version of a plant-picture a small ooze, darting (or sloshing) arround the terrain, absorbing chunks of silicon-dioxide into it's body. It then breaks this down, either using acids, photosynthesis or geothermic energy, combines this with water and creates the silica version of the carbohydrate… the sillohydrate. You would then have creatures that prey on the slimes and creatures that prey on the 'slimivores'… Elaborate a bit, and you've got yourself an ecosystem!:D
[Cleansing Wars Project Aside]
To the topic of the Pristine Tower, part of my Cleansing Wars project was that the Rhul Thaun believed the Brown Tide was a result of an imbalance in the elements (caused by halflings). So they built the Pristine Tower and then a tower to each of the elements. A few of these have been found (the tower that spouts water, the red tower in the south, I think there's a few others mentioned). Of course, this is all my take: canon does not connect these couple of towers, but I did in my campaign.
In my campaign, the Pristine Tower sits at the center of circle of towers that reach out eight directions (one for each element). The Tower of Magma was destroyed when the Dead Lands were created. Others might have been brought down one way or the other, but most still stand. I have kind of put Athas in the same light as the Dark Tower series by Stephen King - how goes the Pristine Tower, so goes Athas and the Tower is supported by those elemental towers. What happens when the last one crumbles to dust? My PCs are slowly finding out.
[/Cleansing Wars Project Aside]