Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Pennarin Jul 20, 2004 21:17:23	Ok, I seriously need criticism and ideas as to how to make this PrC work. The grammar itself is though since a montare can be a montare (mounted) or char-montare (riding a chariot with one or more mounts). If you got nifty idea as to how charioteering gladiatorial games should work and thus what the PrC should require, please post. There's also this problem: chariot driving and combat is not described anywhere in 3E that I know of. Would adding mounts to a chariot increase its speed? what's the limit on mounts on a side? what about one in front of the other? what space does such a chariot take? if the mounts vary in type, what then? Note: the abilities are at the initial stage and may contradict themselves sometimes. If you see contradictions tell me so. Also I have made no effort at this stage to change the wording of the class abilities I have borrowed from the Complete Warrior. [size=4]Montare[/size] Hit Die: d12. Requirements: To qualify to become a montare, a character must fulfill the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +5. Skills: Handle Animal 4 ranks, Ride 6 ranks. Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack. Class Skills: The montare’s class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
#2 nytcrawlr Jul 20, 2004 22:03:28	Originally posted by Pennarin Burst of Speed (Ex): At 3rd level, the montare can urge his mount(s) to greater than normal speed when charging. This ability doubles the maximum distance the mount(s) can travel when making a charge, up to four times their speed. This ability can be used once per day without penalty to the mount(s). Each additional use of the ability in a single day requires the mount(s) to make a DC 20 Will save immediately after the conclusion of the charge; failure results in the mount(s) taking 2d6 points of damage. Make the 2d6 subdual. The rest looks good, way too damn many people calling me right now in order for me to get my brain wrapped around the mechanics though.
#3 elonarc Jul 21, 2004 3:32:07	First quick feedback: Where is the montare tactical feat? Sword and First has a chapter just about chariots at the end of the book. Complete with feats, chariots and everything IIRC.
#4 jon_oracle_of_athas Jul 21, 2004 3:46:42	I like many of your ideas for this class. Some things I'd like to comment: 1. Where is the Montare feat description, and why make this a feat when you can make it a class feature? Seems odd to get it at 8th level and only if you meet its prerequisites. If it is a feat, it might be desirable to have it earlier, it could even be a requisite for the class if you so desire. Also, you might want to change the name of the feat/feature so its name differs from the class name. 2. Mounted Weapon Bonus seems very powerful since the class has a high base attack progression and most characters have a favorite weapon they wield. I would try to come up with some alternative class features to replace this ability, alternatively replace it with a flat +1 to attack when mounted at 1st level, and +1 to damage when mounted at 5th level. Those are the bonuses the 2E Montare received. The Impale special attack from the Gladiators Handbook can be implemented f.ex. by adding Spirited Charge as a class requirement, and increasing the damage multiplier when mounted by 1 at 9th level. If you go down this path, consider reducing the amount of skill points to 2 + int. Come to think of it, this would make a very nice 10th level ability. You could swap it with Quick Turn, making Quick Turn a 9th level feature and the Improved Spirited Charge a 10th level feature. 3. Good Reflex Saves strike me as more intuitively correct than good Fortitude saves. 4. Add Jump and possibly Tumble to the list of class skills. Why do they get Spot and Listen as class skills?
#5 Pennarin Jul 21, 2004 16:06:41	Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas I like many of your ideas for this class. Some things I'd like to comment: 1. Where is the Montare feat description, and why make this a feat when you can make it a class feature? Seems odd to get it at 8th level and only if you meet its prerequisites. If it is a feat, it might be desirable to have it earlier, it could even be a requisite for the class if you so desire. Also, you might want to change the name of the feat/feature so its name differs from the class name. The Montare tactical feat will be done by Nyt when he's got time. He did a Matched-Pair tactical feat for the Matched-Pair PrC. To think of it, I felt funny about giving them such a feat at high level and requiring they have the prerequisites at that. Maybe having a Montare or Matched-Pair tactical feat is not a bad thing for all those gladiators out there who need to acquire more various skills (the names could be changed I agree). But the content of the feats could be made a class ability, with no prerequisites, for both those classes. And in the first levels, so as to represent better the special manouvers they learn from the start. 2. Mounted Weapon Bonus seems very powerful since the class has a high base attack progression and most characters have a favorite weapon they wield. I would try to come up with some alternative class features to replace this ability, alternatively replace it with a flat +1 to attack when mounted at 1st level, and +1 to damage when mounted at 5th level. Those are the bonuses the 2E Montare received. The Impale special attack from the Gladiators Handbook can be implemented f.ex. by adding Spirited Charge as a class requirement, and increasing the damage multiplier when mounted by 1 at 9th level. If you go down this path, consider reducing the amount of skill points to 2 + int. Come to think of it, this would make a very nice 10th level ability. You could swap it with Quick Turn, making Quick Turn a 9th level feature and the Improved Spirited Charge a 10th level feature. Impale, catch & drag and move-by were three fighting techniques availlable to the montare kit, and so rang to me of a tactical feat. Like I say above it could be made availlable to everyone with the heavy prerequisites as a feat but given freely to montares in the first levels. So, you want to make the atk bonuses a +2 at the end of the progression but have it apply to every weapon while mounted, while I give a +3 at the end of the progression but limit it to one specific weapon. Did I understand correctly? 3. Good Reflex Saves strike me as more intuitively correct than good Fortitude saves. Yes. I went with the usual fighting hulk there. Silly. 4. Add Jump and possibly Tumble to the list of class skills. Why do they get Spot and Listen as class skills? I don't know how I would have used to last two in combat but I felt that multiple chariots fighting it out in an arena would require their drivers to be very alert to their surroundings. I initially considerd both Jump and Tumble, but thought except for jumping from his chariot to his enemie's (at that point they're no longer montares, just like fighting hockey players are no longer playing hockey), what good would Jump do? jump an artificial chasm in the floor of the arena with his mount? and how do you use Tumble while mounted or driving if you can't move? unless Tumble also applies to the mount?
#6 nytcrawlr Jul 21, 2004 16:24:39	Give synergy bonuses to the mounts when mounted (get your heads out of the gutter!), when trying to jump or tumble past, or around, etc said obstructions.
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 21, 2004 16:49:33	just like fighting hockey players are no longer playing hockey You mean there's an actual game that they're supposed to play???
#8 jon_oracle_of_athas Jul 21, 2004 17:59:53	So, you want to make the atk bonuses a +2 at the end of the progression but have it apply to every weapon while mounted, while I give a +3 at the end of the progression but limit it to one specific weapon. Did I understand correctly? Nope. +1 to attack and +1 to damage while mounted.
#9 Pennarin Aug 07, 2004 0:35:20	Here's what I got right now. I need ideas for the Offensive Riding ability (somehow its not right) and for the Catch and Drag ability (that can be found in the Gladiator's Handbook). [size=4]Montare[/size] “The adulation of the crowd, the wind in your face, trailing your adversary’s body across the arena floor…” - Braxis, nibenese char-montare Montares are warriors who fight in gladiatorial games of mounted or chariot combat. Montares ride single mounts while char-montares drive chariots or mobile war machines. Most montares ride kanks or crodlus, while small riders prefer erdlus. Certain chariot games use two-person chariots requiring two mounts. Any race can become a montare, although most of them have levels in a warrior class. Many a freemen take on the career of charioteer, but slaves are not rare either. This profession, that many see as a glory sport, attracts the most resplendent and audacious gladiators. Montares have no difficulty to find sponsorship in the gladiator stables as the sport’s popularity is on the rise among the Seven Cities, especially in Tyr where the often less bloody games offer an alternative to the death-matchs found under Kalak’s rule. A dedicated racing facility has even been built on the outskirts of the city. Hit Die: d12. Requirements: To qualify to become a montare (Mon), a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Base Attack Bonus: +5. Skills: char-montare: Craft (chariot) 4 ranks, Handle Animal 6 ranks; montare: Handle Animal 4 ranks, Ride 6 ranks. Feats: char-montare: Chariot Charge*, Chariot Combat*, Chariot Sideswipe*; montare: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge. * Feat from Sword & Fist. Class Skills: The montare’s class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.
#10 bengeldorn Aug 07, 2004 23:05:33	Shouldn't Handle Animal be the the skill used for steering a chariot rather than ride? IMHO ride means being moved from a mount while being on its back while guiding directions with rein and/or one's knees.
#11 Pennarin Aug 08, 2004 11:39:24	Yep, that's what Sword & Fist says too. I changed the arrangment of the skills and feats.
#12 bengeldorn Aug 08, 2004 15:32:22	I changed the arrangment of the skills and feats. Maybe it is better to make different PrCes for Char-Montare and Montare? They would look very similar, but as they've different prerequisites and benefits from their class features, it just looks better than trying to squeeze things together. Another option would be to build the class features as it is done with the ranger and its combat style feature, but than the Montare PrC should need the same prerequisites. Another idea comes in my mind: What about a class feature, that allows a montare to use Handle Animal for ride checks and/or Ride for handle animal checks, whichever is higher? mmmhhh...IMO making to different PrCes is still the best and easiest way...
#13 Pennarin Aug 08, 2004 16:09:05	Double post.
#14 Pennarin Aug 08, 2004 16:10:49	Originally posted by Bengeldorn Maybe it is better to make different PrCes for Char-Montare and Montare? They would look very similar, but as they've different prerequisites and benefits from their class features, it just looks better than trying to squeeze things together. Perhaps, I would need ideas and some directions though. Certain PrCs I'm just no good at, Montare is one of them. If Jon ever makes something of it I'll be happy. Another option would be to build the class features as it is done with the ranger and its combat style feature, but than the Montare PrC should need the same prerequisites. I would really like that, although I don't have much imagination for multiple-choice abilities. I don't make a good ranger or trader designer... Another idea comes in my mind: What about a class feature, that allows a montare to use Handle Animal for ride checks and/or Ride for handle animal checks, whichever is higher? The rules in Sword & Fist already have a table that covers the Handle Animal uses for chariots; it replaces the Ride table from the PHB.
#15 bengeldorn Aug 08, 2004 17:25:21	This is just a quick try a suggestion, I guess there has to be changed a lot. I've just copy pasted most of them and changed some descriptions as IMHO class features should have names with bonus or damage. Montare Hit Die: d12. Requirements: To qualify to become a montare (Mon), a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Base Attack Bonus: +5. Skills: Handle Animal 4 ranks, Ride 6 ranks Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge. Class Skills: The montare’s class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Level BAB Fort Ref Will -------------------------- 1 +1 +0 +2 +0 2 +2 +0 +3 +0 3 +3 +1 +3 +1 4 +4 +1 +4 +1 5 +5 +1 +4 +1 6 +6 +2 +5 +2 7 +7 +2 +5 +2 8 +8 +2 +6 +2 9 +9 +3 +6 +3 10 +10 +3 +7 +3 Level Special Abilities --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Mounted strike, Riding expert 2 Move-by riding 3 Offensive riding 4 Burst of speed 5 Improved mounted strike 6 Catch and drag 7 Greater mounted strike 8 Evasion 9 Quick turn 10 Impale Class Features: Any mention of a mount in the following abilities is also relevant to char-montares with chariots stirred by one or multiple mounts, unless otherwise mentioned. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Montares are proficient with the whip. Montares gain no proficiency with any armor. Mounted Strike (Ex): The montare gains a +1 attack bonus to his attacks while mounted. If a montare allready has mounted strike from a different class, she automatically gains improved mounted strike instead. Riding Expert: A montare gains a competence bonus equal to his class level on all Ride checks. Also when a mount tries to jump over or tumble past an obstacle, it gains a synergy bonus to Jump and Tumble checks equal to half the montare’s competence bonus. Move-By Riding (Ex): The montare can charge his opponent, making a ride-by attack with such swiftness that the opponent loses its Dexterity bonus to its Armor Class for the attack. Offensive Riding (Ex): The montare can focus his actions on offense while riding. He can add a +2 bonus on melee attack rolls while taking a –4 to its Armor Class. The mount also gains a +20 ft. bonus to its speed and takes a –2 to its Reflex saves. Burst of Speed (Ex): The montare can urge his mount to greater than normal speed when charging. This ability doubles the maximum distance the mount can travel when making a charge, up to four times their speed. This ability can be used once per day without penalty to the mount. Each additional use of the ability in a single day requires the mount to make a DC 20 Will save immediately after the conclusion of the charge; failure results in the mount taking 2d6 points of subdual damage. Improved Mounted Strike (Ex): The montare gains a +1 damage bonus to his attacks while mounted. If a montare allready has improved mounted strike from a different class, she automatically gains greater mounted strike instead. Catch and Drag (Ex): Xxx Greater Mounted Strike (Ex): A montare can make a full attack when his mount moves more than 5 feet but no farther than a single move action would carry it. The montare cannot combine this full attack with a charge. Evasion (Ex): The montare gains the evasion ability. If he makes a successful Reflex save against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the montare is mounted or driving and is wearing light or no armor. A helpless montare (such as one who is unconscious or paralyzed) does not gain the benefit of the ability. A montare confers this ability to his mount as well, and the mount is able to use the montare’s Reflex save bonus or its own, whichever is higher. If the character already has the evasion ability, he gains improved evasion instead, and its mount still receives the benefit of evasion as described above. Improved evasion works like evasion, except that while the charater still takes no damage on a successful Reflex save, he takes only half damage on a failed save. Quick Turn (Ex): The montare can make a DC 25 Ride check as a free action to force his mount to execute one change of direction while running or charging (though the mount must still move at least 10 feet in a straight line after the turn to execute a charge). The turn may be up to 90 degrees, and the mount may make only one such turn per round. If the Ride check fails, the mount moves an extra 10 feet in a straight line and then loses the rest of its actions on this turn. Impale (Ex): When charging with a weapon that deals double damage if employed while mounted and charging, a montare inflicts triple damage instead. With any other piercing weapon the charging montare now deals double damage. _____________________________________________________________________ Char-Montare Hit Die: d12. Requirements: To qualify to become a montare (ChM), a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Base Attack Bonus: +5. Skills: Craft (chariot) 4 ranks, Handle Animal 6 ranks Feats: Chariot Charge*, Chariot Combat*, Chariot Sideswipe* * Feat from Sword & Fist. Class Skills: The montare’s class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Level BAB Fort Ref Will -------------------------- 1 +1 +0 +2 +0 2 +2 +0 +3 +0 3 +3 +1 +3 +1 4 +4 +1 +4 +1 5 +5 +1 +4 +1 6 +6 +2 +5 +2 7 +7 +2 +5 +2 8 +8 +2 +6 +2 9 +9 +3 +6 +3 10 +10 +3 +7 +3 Level Special Abilities --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Mounted strike, Chariot expert 2 Move-by driving 3 Offensive driving 4 Burst of speed 5 Mounted damage bonus 6 Catch and drag 7 Full-mounted attack 8 Evasion 9 Quick turn 10 Impale Class Features: Any mention of a mount in the following abilities is also relevant to char-montares with chariots stirred by one or multiple mounts, unless otherwise mentioned. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Char-montares are proficient with the whip. Char-montares gain no proficiency with any armor. Mounted Attack Bonus (Ex): The montare gains a +1 attack bonus to his attacks while mounted. Chariot Expert: A char-montare gains a competence bonus equal to his class level on all Handle Animal checks that involve driving a chariot or training the mounts. Also when steering the chariot past obstacles, the mounts gain a synergy bonus to Tumble checks equal to half the char-montare’s competence bonus. Move-By Driving (Ex): The char-montare can charge his opponent, making a chariot sideswipe with such swiftness that the opponent loses its Dexterity bonus to its Armor Class for the attack. Offensive Driving (Ex): The char-montare can focus his actions on offense while driving. He can add a +2 bonus on melee attack rolls while taking a –4 to its Armor Class. The mounts also gain a +20 ft. bonus to their speed and take a –2 to their Reflex saves. Burst of Speed (Ex): The char-montare can urge his mounts to greater than normal speed when charging. This ability doubles the maximum distance the mounts can travel when making a charge, up to four times their speed. This ability can be used once per day without penalty to the mount. Each additional use of the ability in a single day requires the mount to make a DC 20 Will save immediately after the conclusion of the charge; failure results in the mount taking 2d6 points of subdual damage. Improved Mounted Strike (Ex): The char-montare gains a +1 damage bonus to his attacks while mounted. If a char-montare allready has improved mounted strike from a different class, she automatically gains greater mounted strike instead. Catch and Drag (Ex): Xxx Greater Mounted Strike (Ex): A char-montare can make a full attack when his mount moves more than 5 feet but no farther than a single move action would carry it. The char-montare cannot combine this full attack with a charge. Evasion (Ex): The char-montare gains the evasion ability. If he makes a successful Reflex save against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the char-montare is driving and is wearing light or no armor. A helpless char-montare (such as one who is unconscious or paralyzed) does not gain the benefit of the ability. A char-montare with a single-mount chariot confers this ability to his mount as well, and the mount is able to use the char-montare’s Reflex save bonus or its own, whichever is higher. If the character already has the evasion ability, he gains improved evasion instead, and its mount still receives the benefit of evasion as described above. Improved evasion works like evasion, except that while the charater still takes no damage on a successful Reflex save, he takes only half damage on a failed save. Quick Turn (Ex): The char-montare can make a DC 25 Handle Animal check as a free action to force his mounts to execute one change of direction while running or charging (though the mount must still move at least 10 feet in a straight line after the turn to execute a charge). The turn may be up to 90 degrees, and the mount may make only one such turn per round. If the Handle Animal check fails, the mount moves an extra 10 feet in a straight line and then loses the rest of its actions on this turn. For chariots with multiple mounts, a Handle Animal check must be made for every mount independently; if a single check is failed, all mounts lose the rest of their actions on the turn. Impale (Ex): When charging with a weapon that deals double damage if employed while mounted and charging, a char-montare inflicts triple damage instead. With any other piercing weapon the charging montare now deals double damage.
#16 Pennarin Aug 08, 2004 18:28:32	Very good Bengledorn! Wow. :D /me impressed Yeah, maybe its worth it to make distinct PrCs, although I would prefer if both could be integrated, although the layout for the PrC would be messy. Stuff: - I would call Mounted strike a Charioteer Strike. - Move-by driving makes use of the Sideswipe feat and it can be applied to the char-montare attacking a pedestrian, but how to make it apply to attacking a chariot, I have no idea. Basically I don't know how to attack a chariot. Anyone? - A chariot can be pulled by one or more beasts. I don't know what the effects would be to have more than one - faster, less maneuverable - but wathever advantages would be gained, the char-montare would lose Evasion. So there would be a decision to be made: one pulling beast & evasion or two faster beasts & no evasion. - Also your version doesn't include proficiency in the whip. That's from the Gladiator's Handbook, all montares are automatically proficient in that one.
#17 bengeldorn Aug 08, 2004 18:43:36	- I would call Mounted strike a Charioteer Strike. This would mean, that If a montare allready has mounted strike from a different class, she automatically gains improved mounted strike instead. is not needed anymore - Move-by driving makes use of the Sideswipe feat and it can be applied to the char-montare attacking a pedestrian, but how to make it apply to attacking a chariot, I have no idea. Basically I don't know how to attack a chariot. Anyone? What about making opposed Handle Animal Checks?
#18 Pennarin Aug 08, 2004 19:02:45	Oh that was your drift. I didn't get that at first. Mmm, so you think a gladiator would/could take both PrCs, instead of specializing? I would think that it would rarely happen. A chap's either mounted or driving. There's too much learning involved in both cases: you either learn the intricacies of driving a chariot or how to control a beast that's under you. I'll consider it anyway, try and wrap my head around it.
#19 bengeldorn Aug 08, 2004 19:14:52	I would think that it would rarely happen. A chap's either mounted or driving. There's too much learning involved in both cases: you either learn the intricacies of driving a chariot or how to control a beast that's under you. I'll consider it anyway, try and wrap my head around it. I don't think you need to consider this. Making it different class features makes a lot more sense.