Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 23, 2004 16:04:04	Not sure if there is one of these yet, and have been unable to find one if there is. I was just browsing through the book, and started wondering how the spiritual weapons for the gods had changed from one book to another. Then I started wondering how the Gods of Magic could take away Palin's primal sorcery. Then I started wondering what type of sword the Sword of Tears was. Then I started wondering why 'shocking grasp' was needed to create the Collar of Hounds. Just wondered if there was one handy document that might answer all these questions, and doubtless the billions of other ones no doubt just like them. Many thanks.
#2 green_cloaked_sorcerer Jul 23, 2004 18:55:13	Well the only one of those I can answer is about Palin. They didn't ever take it away from him. He told them he didn't want it anymore, he gave it up. He knows he turned into Raist, and was to obsessed with it and he last too much that was precious to him. Old (Young) Palin would never have done that and he knew that and hated what he had become and had done to his wife the incredibly beautiful Usha. He realized he had neglected his own children, and wanted to right his wrongs before it was too late and he was dead, he had died once without doing that, he didn't want to leave it again with his life the way it was. So to answer your question, the Gods didn't take it away, Palin did. Love always, GCS
#3 theredrobedwizard Jul 24, 2004 7:49:57	Sword of Tears: Longsword. If something doesn't mention a specific type of sword, it is a longsword. Collar of Hounds: "When placed around the neck of a humanoid, the collar causes a jolt of pain which deals 1d4 points of electrical damage to the humanoid who refuses to obey any one-word command given to them by the person who activated the collar." That is why it requires shocking grasp. Palin: Read war of souls. Also, read his stats. It is described in there. Also, it is partially described in the intro to "Chapter 2: Magic" in the AoM. "Palin's life was restored to him by the gods of magic, who also offered to give him back the goly magic that he had so longed for. Palin had by now learned that life with his wife and family meant more to him than the magic and he refused the gods' offer." Any other questions I can clear up? -TRRW
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 24, 2004 8:07:43	Palin never took back the godly magic. Why would this mean he had no more primal sorcery? The Gods of Magic couldn't have taken it away from him - it would merely be restraint on his part, in which case The Collar of Hounds was originally designed for controlling dogs, and so uses charm animal. It was never designed to be used on humanoids - it was later discovered to cause electrical shocks to them, to goad them into obeying. If the electrical aspect was never intended, what did shocking grasp go into the collar for? If there is no actual mental compulsion for the humanoids, why is suggestion also needed? Why were either needed to craft the collar in the first place?
#5 cam_banks Jul 24, 2004 8:17:19	Originally posted by pddisc Palin never took back the godly magic. Why would this mean he had no more primal sorcery? The Gods of Magic couldn't have taken it away from him - it would merely be restraint on his part, in which case The Gods brought him back to life. When they did so, presumably they also removed the ability to use wild magic in the process. The Collar of Hounds was originally designed for controlling dogs, and so uses charm animal. It was never designed to be used on humanoids - it was later discovered to cause electrical shocks to them, to goad them into obeying. If the electrical aspect was never intended, what did shocking grasp go into the collar for? If there is no actual mental compulsion for the humanoids, why is suggestion also needed? Why were either needed to craft the collar in the first place? The rules of magic item creation usually require you to provide for the item's abilities, so the requirements include shocking grasp. There's a lot of artistic license used here, too, unfortunately - storywise, the collar never had this as an intent, but to include that feature in the collar you'd actually have to use the spell in the creation process. Thanks for pointing out some of these confusing points, though. When Sovereign Press gets time to take a breath and prepare any errata, I'll make sure it's included in their list. Cheers, Cam
#6 theredrobedwizard Jul 24, 2004 8:27:22	Also, remember that Palin was a member of the "Old School" of magic. Now that the gods were back, Primal Sorcery was an abomination to him. He wouldn't use magic that was an affront to the gods. He had the knowledge of all spells stripped from his mind to make sure that he didn't use the abomination of Primal Sorcery again. He also didn't want godly magic back, because of the afore mentioned reasons. --- Collar of Hounds: No matter if it was an intended side effect or not, the Collar requires shocking grasp because that's how item creation works in 3rd.5 edition. Whether the people who made the collars in the first place knew about the shocking aspect or not, subconsciously they were including it. -TRRW
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 24, 2004 8:51:16	the Collar requires shocking grasp because that's how item creation works in 3rd.5 edition The rules of magic item creation usually require you to provide for the item's abilities, so the requirements include shocking grasp. There's a lot of artistic license used here, too, unfortunately - storywise, the collar never had this as an intent, but to include that feature in the collar you'd actually have to use the spell in the creation process. Erm... Is this not a shortcoming of the item creation rules, then? Rather than have to fit the story to the rules, shouldn't you fit the rules to the story? For example, if the Collar was created by ogre shamans, that would presumably mean clerics of either Sargonnas or Takhisis. So you could possibly have prerequisites of charm animal and cleric of requisite god OR shocking grasp? Suggestion still makes no sense, though. As described in Wizard's Conclave, it seemed that the Gods of Magic were pretty powerless against primal sorcery. I'm not sure if they would (be able to) strip someone, even someone they've resurrected, of the innate ability to manipulate primal sorcery, any more than a dwarf of darkvision. It would seem far more likely that Palin was given an 'epiphany' by the return of the Gods, and so should be wizard, and just chose not to memorise more spells, and have the ones he already knew removed. That, at least, is my take on it.
#8 green_cloaked_sorcerer Jul 24, 2004 9:07:13	Originally posted by pddisc As described in Wizard's Conclave, it seemed that the Gods of Magic were pretty powerless against primal sorcery. I'm not sure if they would (be able to) strip someone, even someone they've resurrected, of the innate ability to manipulate primal sorcery, any more than a dwarf of darkvision. It would seem far more likely that Palin was given an 'epiphany' by the return of the Gods, and so should be wizard, and just chose not to memorise more spells, and have the ones he already knew removed. That, at least, is my take on it. [/b] Hence the fact that he gave it up. Sure lets say he had the epiphany, ok wow he has Godly magic now, ooops Gods took it away. You answered your own question with that one. And even if not he just gave up the ability to use it. Like you or I would give up the ability to cook or somthing simple like that. Even if he did still have it hes not using it anymore because he doesn't want to. And that right there is the key HE DOES NOT WANT MAGIC ANYMORE. So giving him his choice, they stripped him from it. Just as all the Gods of Krynn allow everyone a choice, they gave Tas a choice, Dalamar a choice, Mina a choice, Paladine a choice. The know its all about choice Palin chose not to have the magic.
#9 zombiegleemax Jul 25, 2004 2:43:17	Sure lets say he had the epiphany Then my contention is with his statistics in the AoM book representing him as sorcerer and not wizard. I know he no longer casts spells - the question is how much he would hold to that if, say, Usha was in a life or death situation. As a primal sorcerer, he would be able to cast a spell (unless we allow the Gods can/did take that away). As a wizard with no spells prepared, he wouldn't - without another epiphany, which I don't think can happen.
#10 theredrobedwizard Jul 25, 2004 4:34:36	Well, in the AoM book, it says he had all knowledge of spells stripped from his mind and had his caster level permanently reduced to 0. And in regards to Wizard's Conclave, the gods of magic could have wiped the floor with any Primal Sorcerer they laid eyes on if not for that "don't interfere" clause in their "being moons" contract. ---------- In order to create a magical effect, there must be a spell in place that creates that effect. A Collar of Hounds that only had Charm Animal wouldn't have the shocking or suggestion-ish components to it. Whether the ogre shamans knew it or not, they were casting Shocking Grasp and Suggestion when they made the collars. -TRRW
#11 zombiegleemax Jul 25, 2004 8:13:10	Hang on a second. Charm animal is drd 1/rgr 1. Shocking grasp is Sor/Wiz 1. Suggestion is Brd 2/Sor/Wiz 3. What are these Ogre Shamen anyway? I don't buy 'subconscious' casting at all. You did suggest it earlier, and I suppose I should've addressed it then. First of all, in my version of spellcasting, a divine spell is cast in your natural language, and comes across as a prayer to your god. You prepare it whenever the appropriate time is by invoking your god and asking for certain spells through the day. Arcane spells are prepared whenever the mage wants to, and most of the spellcasting is done then - the completion of the spell triggers the effects. These ogre shamen were presumably clerics, and so have access to none of these spells, so we must guess that they were instead wizards or sorcerers, with druid/ranger friends who would quite happily allow these ogres to make items that enslave animals, or that they were druid/rangers themselves and had wizard friends to subconsciously cast spells into their items. Any one else see my conceptual problem here? Never mind the fact that any spellcaster knows what spells they have, have prepared, and if they've cast them. The entire item is making less and less sense each time I think about it. The subconscious casting of spells makes even less sense. What if they simply don't have the spell? Did the first creators of the Collar of Hounds just accidentally add them in? Bleh.
#12 theredrobedwizard Jul 25, 2004 16:18:42	Did the first creators of the Collar of Hounds just accidentally add them in? That's probably the long and the short of it. On the subject of item creation, I'd rather have the system as written in v3.5 than the "do whatever the DM tells you AND get experience for it, then lose a permanent CON point" crap that was 1st and 2nd edition. Again, in order to create an effect there HAS to be a spell there. If you want to make it so the collar shocks things, there HAS to be some sort of Electrical spell in place. If you want it to be able to charm things, you have to have a Charm spell. I also assume "Ogre Shaman" is a purposefully vague term, in that they could have been any sort of spellcaster; druid, cleric, or wizard/sorcerer. So one "Ogre Shaman" may have been a druid and one a Cleric (with the Storm domain as to get Shocking Grasp on his spell list). This would get all the requisite spells taken care of. If you don't like the item creation rules, either make some new ones or figure out a way to deal with your dislike. I happen to like them, as it makes it easier to figure out what went in to making them. I'm a very "you can do whatever you want, as long as you can do it within the rules" kinda person. I'd rather have someone find a good use for a current rule than waste time making a new rule for something that already has a well tested and balanced rule to govern how it works. ---------- Also, I thought Galdar had his whole arm missing, not just cut off at the bicep. Wouldn't this contradict the art in the AoM? -TRRW
#13 green_cloaked_sorcerer Jul 26, 2004 2:27:07	Orginaly he had lost it all then Mina gave it all back then Tahkisis cut it off at the elbow