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Of Abyssal Pacts and the Flight of Fiends

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jul 24, 2004 21:51:25 What effect, if any, did the Flight of Fiends have on the various pacts and agreements certain evil people around the Flanaess had with various members of the Lower Planes?

For example, many folks in the former Great Kingdom were in league with demon princes and such ilk. Would their contracts still be potent and binding after the Crook of Rao sent most of the Abyssal Hordes packing? (and yes, I am a GK nut. Everybody's got their niche.) :P

Thanks!
-wn
#2
zombiegleemax
Jul 25, 2004 0:02:03 I can't remember if it said it specifically, but the general consensus seems to be that the Crook of Rao did not affect powerful fiends. I'd say anything including and above a Glabrezu or Gelugon would be unaffected. I might even consider lesser ones with strong ties to this realm, such as a succubi with various pacts, or even a quasit that was a familiar.

So certainly the larger ones that you're mentioning are still around.
#3
Mortepierre
Jul 25, 2004 2:11:18 Familiars (such as the Quasit gained through the Improved Familiar feat) should never be affected.

Demon lords/Princes of Hell certainly weren't (if any was around)

In fact, wasn't this aimed primarily at demons? This would mean any fiend not of the abyss would be unaffected.

Besides, I seem to remember reading on this board not long ago that ONLY fiends who had been "called" to Oerth through certain means (like the Gate in Dorakaa) had been banished.

In the end, I would say to go with whatever fits your campaign best.
#4
zombiegleemax
Jul 25, 2004 3:36:35 One thing I never understood about the Flight of Fiends was - what was stopping all the banished fiends from just piling back through the gates in the lands of Iuz and Almor?

Or if there was some ban on the banished fiends, why didn't Pazerel and Gr'azzt or whoever else was sending fiends through just send more?

Did the Crook shut these Gates?
To have made such an apparent difference, it must have done something to stem to flow of Outsiders onto the Oerth.

P.
#5
zombiegleemax
Jul 25, 2004 6:19:46 I have a sortof personal theory that I use when it comes to fiends.

All fiends, bar the prime evils that have existed since the creation of the planes and may even have created many of them, are souls of the damned.

The souls of the dead go to the patron that they worshiped in life. However, as many know, some souls do not leave this realm, and others get lost. Those that lose their way, or who cannot pay the boatman, end up in limbo where they are randomly tossed from that plane to one of the fiendish planes. There, they coelesce into the lowest forms of fiends for that plane, such as lemures or dretches.

Ever since the bloodwar began, however, the higher demons have sought to increase their numbers artificially, and so they make pacts with primes in order to garner souls for their armies.

In my game, this is how Iuz has gained so much fiendish support. He has promised that all the people who his priests ritually sacrifice, have their souls corrupted by the process and sent to the demonic planes. Then he raises them as undead. It's a perfect use of a body, since he effectively gets a 2-4-1 deal :D

Anyway, as these beings are now corrupted and wholly evil, they have lost all their once mortal sensibilities, and although they may or may not remember their former lives, much like ghosts abhor the living for the life they have, fiends abhor this realm for what it once was to them. That, and their soul is not 'meant' to be here anymore, so their aversion to this plane of existence is very powerful.

Thus, they only come here when summoned or are forced. This plane is uncomfortable for them at best, weakening and stressful at worst. They have no desire to be here and every fibre of their being wishes to be back in their fiendish realm.
#6
zombiegleemax
Jul 25, 2004 12:59:17 That sounds pretty logical to me, Iksander. Plus, IIRC, gates are difficult to use at best, so I don't think it would be a stretch to say that the Crook of Rao somehow closed them or made them inoperable for a time. If the abyssal hordes don't want to be on the Prime Material Plane in the first place, then Iuz, the GK princes, and whoever else will have their work cut out for them in trying to rebuild their demonic armies.

How are the more powerful entities of the Lower Planes still able to project their power to the Prime Material? I guess they would have to be able to if they are still enforcing their contracts with their mortal collaborators.

-wn
#7
zombiegleemax
Jul 25, 2004 13:26:39 A couple of thoughts:

A theory I advance regarding the Flight of Fiends is that the Crook of Rao focused its energies on several specific gates. Once these gates were targeted, the gates were destroyed. The resulting magical backlash banished whatever fiend entered Oerth through those specific gates, leaving those summoned through other means uneffected. This would still be an enormous number of demons banished from the world, but would still leave quite a few left to cause woe to the forces of good.

The particular gates that would most likely have been targeted (coming from Canon Hazen's perspective and intelligence, they would be the most well known or active demonic gates on Oerth) would be the Blackspear Chamber in Dorakaa and Onyxgate in Almor. I forwarded this theory in my article "Hell on Oerth", now published on Canonfire (shameless plug).

In "A Guide to Hell" by Chris Pramas, he forwards the notion that only chaotic demons were effected, and the lawful devils were not banished at all. Furthermore, the LGG described Dorakaa as still being awash with demons, so clearly there may be some who simply resisted the Crook's power (just enough to keep Iuz's balance of power and to keep your players on their toes).

Clearly, the Flight of Fiends helped to stave off complete disaster for the forces of good, but evil still maintains a foothold on Oerth.

O-D
#8
zombiegleemax
Jul 26, 2004 6:53:31 A really simple answer would be to say that the Crook forced all fiends within the Flanaess to make a Will save vs. DC... ooh, I don't know... 15? Those who passed, stayed, those who failed, were banished. That'd give you a nice spread as even some minor demons would still have managed to stay, and even some powerful ones might've been banished (1 is always a fail, remember).

Plus if you go with the theory that they didn't like being here in the first place, then they have no real reason to come back unless once again summoned or forced. It's not like it's easy to build a demonic horde, so it's really a matter of time, ability and willingness to reforge new deals.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 24, 2004 21:51:25	What effect, if any, did the Flight of Fiends have on the various pacts and agreements certain evil people around the Flanaess had with various members of the Lower Planes? For example, many folks in the former Great Kingdom were in league with demon princes and such ilk. Would their contracts still be potent and binding after the Crook of Rao sent most of the Abyssal Hordes packing? (and yes, I am a GK nut. Everybody's got their niche.) :P Thanks! -wn
#2 zombiegleemax Jul 25, 2004 0:02:03	I can't remember if it said it specifically, but the general consensus seems to be that the Crook of Rao did not affect powerful fiends. I'd say anything including and above a Glabrezu or Gelugon would be unaffected. I might even consider lesser ones with strong ties to this realm, such as a succubi with various pacts, or even a quasit that was a familiar. So certainly the larger ones that you're mentioning are still around.
#3 Mortepierre Jul 25, 2004 2:11:18	Familiars (such as the Quasit gained through the Improved Familiar feat) should never be affected. Demon lords/Princes of Hell certainly weren't (if any was around) In fact, wasn't this aimed primarily at demons? This would mean any fiend not of the abyss would be unaffected. Besides, I seem to remember reading on this board not long ago that ONLY fiends who had been "called" to Oerth through certain means (like the Gate in Dorakaa) had been banished. In the end, I would say to go with whatever fits your campaign best.
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 25, 2004 3:36:35	One thing I never understood about the Flight of Fiends was - what was stopping all the banished fiends from just piling back through the gates in the lands of Iuz and Almor? Or if there was some ban on the banished fiends, why didn't Pazerel and Gr'azzt or whoever else was sending fiends through just send more? Did the Crook shut these Gates? To have made such an apparent difference, it must have done something to stem to flow of Outsiders onto the Oerth. P.
#5 zombiegleemax Jul 25, 2004 6:19:46	I have a sortof personal theory that I use when it comes to fiends. All fiends, bar the prime evils that have existed since the creation of the planes and may even have created many of them, are souls of the damned. The souls of the dead go to the patron that they worshiped in life. However, as many know, some souls do not leave this realm, and others get lost. Those that lose their way, or who cannot pay the boatman, end up in limbo where they are randomly tossed from that plane to one of the fiendish planes. There, they coelesce into the lowest forms of fiends for that plane, such as lemures or dretches. Ever since the bloodwar began, however, the higher demons have sought to increase their numbers artificially, and so they make pacts with primes in order to garner souls for their armies. In my game, this is how Iuz has gained so much fiendish support. He has promised that all the people who his priests ritually sacrifice, have their souls corrupted by the process and sent to the demonic planes. Then he raises them as undead. It's a perfect use of a body, since he effectively gets a 2-4-1 deal :D Anyway, as these beings are now corrupted and wholly evil, they have lost all their once mortal sensibilities, and although they may or may not remember their former lives, much like ghosts abhor the living for the life they have, fiends abhor this realm for what it once was to them. That, and their soul is not 'meant' to be here anymore, so their aversion to this plane of existence is very powerful. Thus, they only come here when summoned or are forced. This plane is uncomfortable for them at best, weakening and stressful at worst. They have no desire to be here and every fibre of their being wishes to be back in their fiendish realm.
#6 zombiegleemax Jul 25, 2004 12:59:17	That sounds pretty logical to me, Iksander. Plus, IIRC, gates are difficult to use at best, so I don't think it would be a stretch to say that the Crook of Rao somehow closed them or made them inoperable for a time. If the abyssal hordes don't want to be on the Prime Material Plane in the first place, then Iuz, the GK princes, and whoever else will have their work cut out for them in trying to rebuild their demonic armies. How are the more powerful entities of the Lower Planes still able to project their power to the Prime Material? I guess they would have to be able to if they are still enforcing their contracts with their mortal collaborators. -wn
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 25, 2004 13:26:39	A couple of thoughts: A theory I advance regarding the Flight of Fiends is that the Crook of Rao focused its energies on several specific gates. Once these gates were targeted, the gates were destroyed. The resulting magical backlash banished whatever fiend entered Oerth through those specific gates, leaving those summoned through other means uneffected. This would still be an enormous number of demons banished from the world, but would still leave quite a few left to cause woe to the forces of good. The particular gates that would most likely have been targeted (coming from Canon Hazen's perspective and intelligence, they would be the most well known or active demonic gates on Oerth) would be the Blackspear Chamber in Dorakaa and Onyxgate in Almor. I forwarded this theory in my article "Hell on Oerth", now published on Canonfire (shameless plug). In "A Guide to Hell" by Chris Pramas, he forwards the notion that only chaotic demons were effected, and the lawful devils were not banished at all. Furthermore, the LGG described Dorakaa as still being awash with demons, so clearly there may be some who simply resisted the Crook's power (just enough to keep Iuz's balance of power and to keep your players on their toes). Clearly, the Flight of Fiends helped to stave off complete disaster for the forces of good, but evil still maintains a foothold on Oerth. O-D
#8 zombiegleemax Jul 26, 2004 6:53:31	A really simple answer would be to say that the Crook forced all fiends within the Flanaess to make a Will save vs. DC... ooh, I don't know... 15? Those who passed, stayed, those who failed, were banished. That'd give you a nice spread as even some minor demons would still have managed to stay, and even some powerful ones might've been banished (1 is always a fail, remember). Plus if you go with the theory that they didn't like being here in the first place, then they have no real reason to come back unless once again summoned or forced. It's not like it's easy to build a demonic horde, so it's really a matter of time, ability and willingness to reforge new deals.