Still to convert are Thor's spells, Berserk and Thor's Fist.
So, here they are for discussion - Are they uderpowered, overpowered, inacurate, incomplete, etc. Thanks in advance for your help.
Interpret Runes
Divination
Level: Clr 2
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Rune tiles
Duration: instantaneous
Using a specially carved and enchanted set of wooden tiles (one for each of the twenty-four commonly known power runes of Odin), the caster can ask the Immortal he serves for guidance on a course of action. The subject casts the spell, addresses his Immortal with the proper ritual phrases, describes the course of action he proposes, then casts the wooden tiles before him. In the tiles the subject reads the answer of his Immortal patron.
Note that the runes used on the tiles for this spell are not actually inscribed with the powers of any of the power runes of Odin. When a cleric creates his own set and uses this spell on them for the first time, there is a faint magical aura that remains on them as if they were a very minor magical item, and only the tiles creator can use them for an interpret runes spell. Hence, a cleric’s rune tiles are a very sacred thing to him, meaning just as much as his holy symbol.
Bless Rune
Evocation
Level: Clr 2
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: 1 power rune
Duration: 10 rounds (unless noted otherwise)
This spell activates a power rune which has previously been properly inscribed on an object by a cleric. The rune need not have been inscribed by the cleric casting bless rune.
The best-known magical powers of the 24 Power Runes of Odin are listed in the Northern Reaches Player’s Handbook. Other powers of these runes might be learned through adventuring. Different power runes may also exist, and these additional runes might be discovered through adventuring.
Bless Rune activates only one of the various powers inherent in the rune. The spellcaster must specify which power he wishes to invoke before casting the spell or the spell fails and the rune is not activated.
Know Rune
Divination
Level: Clr 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal & touch (see below)
Target: You and special toxin
Duration: 9 nights
Use of this spell permits a cleric to learn one of the 24 Power Runes of Odin, or some other power rune made available by the DM.
To be effective, this spell must be accompanied by the ritual appropriate to the cleric’s cult. (See “Rune Cult Rituals” in the Northern Reaches Gazeetter.) Each use of this spell results in the semi-permanent loss of one Constitution point due to the extreme strain of the ritual on the body; it is recovered after six months. The ritual also drains the cleric of 1000 experience points and if the loss would take him below the 10,000xp mark for a fifth level character, the spell and ritual automatically fail. This spell is cast at the beginning of the ritual to prepare the cleric’s mind & body, and also to “activate” the toxin that must be taken.
Inscribe Rune
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Clr 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: 1 object
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell permits a cleric to inscribe a power rune on an object. The cleric must know the rune (see the know rune spell above) and perform the appropriate rituals (below). Any error or omission in performance of the ritual spoils the spell effect; therefore, a knowledge (religion) skill check must be made against a DC of 15.
Unless inscribed using this spell, a power rune has no magical properties and cannot be activated. Once properly inscribed upon an object, a power rune may be activated by a cleric using the bless rune spell.
An object inscribed with a power rune becomes linked to the cleric that performs the ritual and casts the spell. Henceforth the cleric will know whenever the rune is activated by a bless rune spell, or when it is destroyed physically (i.e., by destruction of the rune or the object) or magically (i.e., by a dispel magic or similar spell). This occurs regardless of distance from the object. The cleric knows nothing of the circumstances of the activation or destruction of the rune – only that it has been activated or destroyed.
There is a limit to the number of power runes a cleric may have magically inscribed at any one time. The total is equal to the number of third level spells the cleric may memorize at one time; this includes their base number and bonuses for Wisdom, but does not include any domain spells or those granted as domain powers. If the cleric attempts to inscribe a greater number of runes than his limit, all power runes currently inscribed by him immediately lose their magically properties, and his current inscribe rune ritual is spoiled as well. Objects properly inscribed by a cleric retain their properties after his death.
Originally posted by Hugin
So, here they are for discussion - Are they uderpowered, overpowered, inacurate, incomplete, etc. Thanks in advance for your help.
I say they look very fine, Hugin. I might extend the duration of the Bless Rune spell though. 60 seconds seems a little brief where some of the runes are concerned.
Or maybe each rune should have it own set duration and then the duration of the Bless Rune spell should be instantanious?
I mean, what good is it to have a +3 reaction when you ask for shelter in the night, if it only lasts one minute? :D
:-) Jesper
by Spellweaver
I mean, what good is it to have a +3 reaction when you ask for shelter in the night, if it only lasts one minute?
*lol* Good point! I'll look into it. When I did the conversions I thought I took it as "straight from the source" as possible, but maybe I messed it up. Perhaps the results (such as damage, knowledge gained, or influence) would be permanent (until something else changed them) but I'll double check.
Originally posted by Hugin
*lol* Good point! I'll look into it. When I did the conversions I thought I took it as "straight from the source" as possible, but maybe I messed it up. Perhaps the results (such as damage, knowledge gained, or influence) would be permanent (until something else changed them) but I'll double check.
I think you did a very good job converting the spells from 0D&D -> 3E D&D. Bless Rune has a duration of 10 rounds in the original source material as well. I was just pointing out that perhaps the original material needed some adjustments...
:-) Jesper
I know it reflects that Odin hung like a dead man in an oak tree for nine days to learn them from the giants to begin with, but IMO it just seems too dear a price to pay.
There are so many runes to learn and although they are powerful the situation in which each individual rune comes in handy is sort of limited (for most of them). IMO no character would sacrifice more than a few points of con to learn some and IMC no player character has EVER wanted to make the sacrifice.
I would prefer a less costly price and then maybe make the Bless Rune spell to activate it a higher - say 4th or 5th level spell?
If a character were to sacrifice a number of XP instead of a point of constitution I think the rune system would appeal to far more players. Make the XP loss the equivalent of creating a permanent magical item. That would seem fair to me. It has roughly the same power but you also have to use a spell each time to activate it?
What do you think?
:-) Jesper
by Spellweaver
It's cool to finally have the runic system in 3E but I have always disliked that a character had to sacrifice a point of constitution to learn a single rune.
I agree with you. It is a high cost, and should be that way, but I like the XP cost. Perhaps the constitution loss lasts for only a specific amount of time (i.e. six months?) in addition to the XP cost.
I was just pointing out that perhaps the original material needed some adjustments...
As for the duration of the bless rune spell, we could adjust the length, or even make it dependant upon the specific rune. I'm not sure myself, but we can still work with it some more.
Thor’s Spells
Berserk (Thor’s Rage)
Transmutation
Level: Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Self or one follower of Thor or Odin
Duration: 10 rounds
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Affects creature touched or self in a similar way to a haste spell; the difference is that Berserk affects the targets arms only. When making a full attack action, a berserker may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made at the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell or a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
When spell ends, the subject is exhausted for 30 minutes, with the following penalties: all attackers gain a +2 bonus to hit; the subject’s AC is calculated without a shield (subject is too weary to use it); and the subject’s movement is reduced by half. Two or more spells may affect the subject in sequence. Penalties for a berserk-exhausted subject are temporarily deferred by use of another berserk spell, but each use means 30 full minutes of penalties as noted.
Fist of Thor
Transmutation
Level: Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Weapon touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
This spell gives a magical bonus to weapon damage: +3 for war hammer (the weapon sacred to Thor), and +1 to all other weapons and to unarmed strikes. The weapon or fist (if in unarmed combat) touched by the cleric glows magically, and permits damage to creatures with damage reduction of up to the magical damage bonus.
Originally posted by Hugin
All right, here are Thor's special spells. Sorry it took so long. As usual, I tried to stay as true to the source (Northern Reaches Gazeetter) as possible.
I think the spells are fine - I haven't compared them to the original 0D&D yet, though.
I was thinking that instead of speed and an extra attack the Berserk spell ought to give the cleric a Barbarian's rage attributes perhaps?
I have to give that some thought.
:-) Jesper
Originally posted by Hugin
I edited the Bless Rune spell description so that the constitution loss lasts for 6 months and there is also a cost of 1000xp. I'm not 100% convinced that this the final draft though I think I'm on the right track.
I still think that is a harsh payment - six months where you might actually miss 2 hp / level...
I think that IMC I will adjust it so that the priest takes 2d6 points of con damage (to reflect the horror and pain of the ritual) but that he regains them by normal rest at the rate of one point per day (no magic will help). It will be a nasty thing to go through and a weak priest might actually die from it. But if he survives, he will know the rune.
And then he pays the 1000 xp - that seems a fair price if Bless Rune remains a 2nd level spell.
:-) Jesper
by Spellweaver
I was thinking that instead of speed and an extra attack the Berserk spell ought to give the cleric a Barbarian's rage attributes perhaps?
That was the original route I was going to take for Berserk; emulating the barbarian's rage. What I found was that it made it a little redundant if you allow characters from the Northern Reaches to be of the Barbarian class, which I imagine most DMs would do. Plus, this partial use of the haste spell also uses established 3E rules while at the same time stays very true to the OD&D material (something I feel should be tried as much as can be reasonably done).
I think that IMC I will adjust it...
Absolutely! Everybody finds something that just doesn't feel right for their game as so house-rules it. Your suggestion is certainly a viable alternative, but just think about this; a cleric with above average constitution will have the capability to learn all the 24 commonly known Runes of Power in just one year.
Just one last point as well - a cleric doesn't have to go through the Know Rune spell and ritual to be able to Bless/activate that particular type of rune, he needs to go through that to have the ability to inscribe that rune. I would imagine a certain amount of prestige and respect would be given such a character who went through one of those rituals.
BTW, thanks for your input on these and the clerical spell lists!
Originally posted by Hugin
That was the original route I was going to take for Berserk; emulating the barbarian's rage. What I found was that it made it a little redundant if you allow characters from the Northern Reaches to be of the Barbarian class, which I imagine most DMs would do. Plus, this partial use of the haste spell also uses established 3E rules while at the same time stays very true to the OD&D material (something I feel should be tried as much as can be reasonably done).
I see your point. And I agree that staying true to the original material is important. I figured a Barbarian rage would be nice to a cleric but then I saw that he can cast it on others as well and for a barbarian character it would be pretty pointless.
Absolutely! Everybody finds something that just doesn't feel right for their game as so house-rules it. Your suggestion is certainly a viable alternative, but just think about this; a cleric with above average constitution will have the capability to learn all the 24 commonly known Runes of Power in just one year.
I had not thought about how quickly he could learn all 24 of them. BUT! It would cost him 24.000 XP (nasty sum) and I also think that the many "if's" under the description of the ritual on page 28 should keep a DM able to prevent a PC from learning too many runes too quickly or too easily.
Just one last point as well - a cleric doesn't have to go through the Know Rune spell and ritual to be able to Bless/activate that particular type of rune, he needs to go through that to have the ability to inscribe that rune. I would imagine a certain amount of prestige and respect would be given such a character who went through one of those rituals.
That is true, but if he does not know the rune himself - if another cleric inscribed it - it will vanish after its use and with it his chance of learning it himself. He cannot research it himself. He either needs a copy or the presense of another cleric who knows the rune in question.
And since there is a limit to how many runes you can have inscribed at any one time it seem unlikely to me that runesticks are items just lying casually about. They are items of power and prestige.
BTW, thanks for your input on these and the clerical spell lists!
Well, thank you for putting up such an effort to bring us all these gooddies
:-) Jesper
by Spellweaver
That is true, but if he does not know the rune himself - if another cleric inscribed it - it will vanish after its use and with it his chance of learning it himself.
Really? Are you sure? I tried to find that in the Gaz but couldn't see it - but I have been called blind before
. My mindset while doing the conversions was that they were quite permanent until destroyed physically or dispelled magically. If you're right I'll have to reconsider things.Originally posted by Hugin
Really? Are you sure? I tried to find that in the Gaz but couldn't see it - but I have been called blind before
Originally posted by Hugin
Really? Are you sure? I tried to find that in the Gaz but couldn't see it - but I have been called blind before
I don't know how I got that wrong when I read it last time but you are quite right. They are, apparently, permanent until destroyed or dispelled. BUT! Even though a cleric who did not inscribe the rune can activate it with a Bless Rune spell, it won't work anyway because he has to specify during the casting which of the rune's various effects he wants to activate. How could he do that without knowing the rune??
And I did read the part about #runes active correctly: a number of runes equal to the number of 3rd level spells the inscribing cleric may cast each day.
So, in conclusion; an inscribed rune with let's say three different powers, which needs to be activated by a 2nd level spell, effectively gives the cleric three moderately powerful choices of effect (some of them equivalent to a 5th level spell, though) for the one time price of 2d6 constitution damage and 1000 xp's (IMC at least). I think that is a fair deal.
:-) Jesper
by Spellweaver
BUT! Even though a cleric who did not inscribe the rune can activate it with a Bless Rune spell, it won't work anyway because he has to specify during the casting which of the rune's various effects he wants to activate. How could he do that without knowing the rune??
I always thought / assumed that there was a difference between general knowledge of the 24 "commonly known" power runes and the divine knowledge of specific runes that allow the cleric to inscribe them magically. If this isn't the case, then the 2nd level "bless rune" spell is totally useless to the cleric until he can cast the 3rd level spell "know rune".
I think it's implied that the clerics of the Northern Reaches are taught some information about the 24 runes because they make themselves personal rune-tiles for the "interpret runes" spell (using the non-magical forms of the power runes). I would imagine that some of the uses of the real runes would also be passed on during the teaching process.
Now that I think about it, we could require a knowledge (religion) check at DC15 (?) to know each of the uses of the rune. What do you think?
And I did read the part about #runes active correctly: a number of runes equal to the number of 3rd level spells the inscribing cleric may cast each day.
Is this something we should adjust though? In OD&D, a cleric could memorize a 3rd level spell at 6th level, up to a maximum of 9 spells at level 36. In 3E, this has changed to beginning at 5th level to a maximum of 5 + 1 domain spell + 1 if he has high enough wisdom.
So, do we include the domain spell and the one from wisdom? Or, we could say the limit is double the clerics base 3rd level spells plus any for high wisdom. Or, one for every 2 levels of cleric plus bonus from high wisdom. Any preference?
Originally posted by Hugin
I always thought / assumed that there was a difference between general knowledge of the 24 "commonly known" power runes and the divine knowledge of specific runes that allow the cleric to inscribe them magically. If this isn't the case, then the 2nd level "bless rune" spell is totally useless to the cleric until he can cast the 3rd level spell "know rune".
I think it's implied that the clerics of the Northern Reaches are taught some information about the 24 runes because they make themselves personal rune-tiles for the "interpret runes" spell (using the non-magical forms of the power runes). I would imagine that some of the uses of the real runes would also be passed on during the teaching process.
Now that I think about it, we could require a knowledge (religion) check at DC15 (?) to know each of the uses of the rune. What do you think?
Well, I always figured that the fact that a cleric gets Bless Rune before Know Rune reflected the amount of Divine Energy needed to activate / learn a rune and not necessarily the order in which the cleric begins casting those spells. But I see you point. My way they get a 2nd level spell they cannot use until they have cast a 3rd level spell and learned their first rune.
IMO it does not make sense if a cleric can read a rune, understand its powers and even activate it before he has "learned" it. IMO there is a difference between the 24 sacred runes and the "normal" runes used for writing and using the Interpret Runes spell.
If a cleric can bless any rune he comes across with a Religion DC 15 check, I foresee a society in which people would much rather steal runesticks or other runeinscribed items than perform the Know Rune ritual themselves.
Is this something we should adjust though? In OD&D, a cleric could memorize a 3rd level spell at 6th level, up to a maximum of 9 spells at level 36. In 3E, this has changed to beginning at 5th level to a maximum of 5 + 1 domain spell + 1 if he has high enough wisdom.
So, do we include the domain spell and the one from wisdom? Or, we could say the limit is double the clerics base 3rd level spells plus any for high wisdom. Or, one for every 2 levels of cleric plus bonus from high wisdom. Any preference?
That is a good point. IMC 0D&D level 26-36 equals 3E Epic levels 21-26 (see thread about that a few months back) and so if a 0D&D level 25 cleric should equal a 3E level 20 cleric in the number of runes they can have active I think we should just keep the 5 + domain spell + wisdom bonus spell(s). Remember that in 3E a cleric can have 18+ wisdom.
The Gaz 7 players guide mentions that a Reverence check may be required to see, if the cleric actually learns the rune, learns a different one or none at all. We could substitute this for a religion check or level + 1d20 check. I think that the DC ought to be higher than 15 though. In my experience, cleric characters always have their religion skill maxed out and DC 15 quickly becomes too easy to meet. I am thinking something like clerics level + 1d20 vs. DC 25 but I like to make things a little difficult for my players
:-) Jesper
by Spelllweaver
IMO it does not make sense if a cleric can read a rune, understand its powers and even activate it before he has "learned" it. IMO there is a difference between the 24 sacred runes and the "normal" runes used for writing and using the Interpret Runes spell.
I know what you're saying here, but the Gazeetter states under Rune Cult Rituals, "Interpret Runes: The 24 Power Runes of Odin must be carved into oak tiles by the cleric who casts the spell."
I have to say here, the writers did make this whole thing unclear by using the same terms for different types of runes, but we'll figure it out (and I might state things that you're fully aware of but at least that way I know we're on the same page, plus it helps me work it out).
So, the 24 tile-runes (used for Interpret Runes spell) are identical in appearance to the 24 Power Runes (the ones with magical effects and require the Know Rune spell to learn). This would indicate that the cleric knows what the Power Runes look like, perhaps even their names I should think. He could even draw them in the ground if he desired, but they would just be mundane markings. Although the tile-runes do have a faint magical aura to them, they possess no magical effects beyond their use in the Interpret Runes spell.
So far, so good
If a cleric can bless any rune he comes across with a Religion DC 15 check, I foresee a society in which people would much rather steal runesticks or other runeinscribed items than perform the Know Rune ritual themselves.
Only Power Runes can be blessed and therefore have their magical effects activated. So a tile-rune, even though it may have the symbol of the Power Rune Thurs, the giant, cannot be blessed. Nor could the marking on the ground of a such a symbol. The ritual for inscribing of a true Power Rune can take up to 10 hours. I beleive such an item that bears a Power Rune would be a very personal item. Also, since a Power Rune looks just like a mundane marking, it would be difficult to tell if it was a Power Rune (without magic that is).
As for the DC, I agree with you, 15 is definantly too low. DC25 Knowledge (religion) sounds good to me as well. Good point about the 18+ Wisdom scores too, I forgot about that.
What I had in mind for that DC was, if a cleric came across a Power Rune, and was able to determine that it was a magical one, the DM could roll one of these Knowledge checks for each of the rune's effects. For instance, the Power Rune symbol of Thurs the giant has 3 listed effects. Roll once for each of these effects to determine which ones he knows.
That is a good point. IMC 0D&D level 26-36 equals 3E Epic levels 21-26 (see thread about that a few months back) and so if a 0D&D level 25 cleric should equal a 3E level 20 cleric in the number of runes they can have active I think we should just keep the 5 + domain spell + wisdom bonus spell(s).
Agreed.
Originally posted by Hugin
I know what you're saying here, but the Gazeetter states under Rune Cult Rituals, "Interpret Runes: The 24 Power Runes of Odin must be carved into oak tiles by the cleric who casts the spell."
OK, from now on I'll use "Power Runes" and just "runes"
So, the 24 tile-runes (used for Interpret Runes spell) are identical in appearance to the 24 Power Runes (the ones with magical effects and require the Know Rune spell to learn). This would indicate that the cleric knows what the Power Runes look like, perhaps even their names I should think. He could even draw them in the ground if he desired, but they would just be mundane markings. Although the tile-runes do have a faint magical aura to them, they possess no magical effects beyond their use in the Interpret Runes spell.
I agree, that makes more sense than the priest saying: "almighty Odin, grant me the knowledge of the powers of the rune known as..." (draws in the sand)
Agree that only Powers Runes can be blessed. And that they look like the normal runes most scholars know. And that they will be closely guarded by their owners.
So, a DC 25 Knowledge Religion check to find out the potential powers of a Power Rune that a cleric comes across accidentally and a similar check to even get to know the Power Rune when the Know Rune ritual is performed.
I think we are just about done!
:-) Jesper
P.S. If you have any suggestions or expansions for the Ravens of Odin, I'd like to hear them! Have you done anything on the Brothers of the King IYC ?
:-) Jesper
by Spellweaver
Just had a look at the statistics; 16 posts and 137 views. Seems like our little discussion draws a crowd even if we are the only ones debating *LOL*
I didn't even notice that! But I know it's impossible to be involved in every thread (especially when you type as slow as I do :D ).
I think we are just about done!
Yep. I think we figured it out and came up with some good conclusions. I honestly had some difficulty sorting out what the rules/procedures were for this topic at first.
P.S. If you have any suggestions or expansions for the Ravens of Odin, I'd like to hear them! Have you done anything on the Brothers of the King IYC ?
Not so far, but if do I'll certainly post them.
I gave this thread a quick read through and I think it has a lot of interesting ideas. I hope I'm not resurecting a dead thread, but since I think this is a pretty cool topic I just have to chime in.
Since I don't have my northern reaches gaz in front of me you will have to forgive me if I don't have all of my facts straight. Right now I'm drawing most of them from your discussion in this thread.
Given the following 2 assumptions:
1) There are 24 Runes of Power.
2) In the OD&D rules a cleric would have to permanently give up 1 point of Con in order to learn a Rune of Power.
The first thing that comes to my mind is that in OD&D a cleric could never learn all 24 Runes of Power. However with the rules that you have outlined above you make this possible (although a bit expensive).
Could the Know Runes ability be handled as a feat instead of a spell? Each time a character took the feat he would be allowed to "know" an additional rune of power. If the prereq for the feat was knowledge of 3rd level divine spells, then a cleric could take it upon attaining 6th level. If they took it at 6th level and every time afterward, they would have knowledge of 5 runes of power.
Add to that a prestige class (5 levels) of Runemaster that allows the character to learn a new rune every level. Now a dedicated cleric can learn up to 10 runes of power.
Sacrificing a feat for a rune of power seems like a nice substitute for the 1 point of Con that was sacrificed in OD&D. This makes for a much cleaner system, and one more in line with 3E mechanics (at least IMO). And... knowing 10 out of the 24 runes of power is not so bad, especially considering that it would be a pretty rare OD&D cleric who could claim the same thing. Comments?
Using feats rather than paying con points seem more in line with 3e. To keep it balanced, the knowledge of a Rune could grant 9 spell-like powers, one for each level, not unlike a Cleric's domain. Though IMO Runes should be available for both arcane and divine spellcasters, since especially clerics and bards seem like good candidates for Rune Mastery. I'm not sure, but Complete Divine may have rules for rune magic aswell, though I havent had a chance to check them out yet.
The Rune Caster PrC is an excellent idea aswell.
Håvard
Using feats rather than paying con points seem more in line with 3e. To keep it balanced, the knowledge of a Rune could grant 9 spell-like powers, one for each level, not unlike a Cleric's domain. Though IMO Runes should be available for both arcane and divine spellcasters, since especially clerics and bards seem like good candidates for Rune Mastery. I'm not sure, but Complete Divine may have rules for rune magic aswell, though I havent had a chance to check them out yet.
Let us know if Complete Divine is useful. I was thinking of modifying some of the rules from the Eberron CS myself. It seems like Dragonmarks and Runes of Power might be able to use the same game mechanics. It just depends upon whether or not Dragonmarks and Runes of Power are of comparable power levels.
It seems to me that Runes might be slightly more powerful because a character is able to actually craft several of them (and give them over to other characters). With Dragonmarks, only the feat taker gains the benefit of use. With Runes, anyone who can activate them gains their benefit (although only the feat taker can create them).
And btw, as far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as a dead thread. ;)
Hmmm... Is the Rune Caster something that is better handled by a new core class (something like the Artificer), or is it a prestige class? I might play around with this in the next few days. First step: crack open that northern Reaches Gaz again ;)
I like the idea of using feats to pay for power runes and just have a few things to add:
Even if a character had enough XP, feats or whatever to pay for all 24 PRs, I find it unlikely that Odin would grant them all to one person. As I read the gaz, receiving even a single PR is a sign of favour from the All Father and the DM should restrict the number of PRs available to a single PC.
And: Although I am not disapproving of Havard's idea of a PR working like a Domain, the average PR has three effects, which means somebody has to come up with (6*24) 144 new PR effects of varying power. Quite a task...
:-) Jesper
Feats instead of a constitution loss, eh? I like it! But I think the feat would by used in conjunction with the spell - I mean, the ritual should still be nessessary right?
Hmmm... I was thinking about this. It's not something you see in other feats, but I see no reason why a prerequisite for taking the feat could not be the ritual. Just specify in the description that every time you take this feat again, you need to complete another ritual. That does away with the need for the Know Rune spell altogether (but interpret, bless, and inscribe rune spells are still useful).
I may write up the feat and a sample rune power as a straw man for you later tonight. Then we'd have something concrete to critique/modify.
by Chimpman
I may write up the feat and a sample rune power as a straw man for you later tonight. Then we'd have something concrete to critique/modify.
That would be great! Another thought for you too - I just looked at the ritual in the gaz again and it appears that there must be at least two clerics present - the one to learn the rune and another that already knows it, administers the toxin, and must be present for the full duration. From the sounds of it, it is this second cleric that should use the "know rune" spell, to bestow the knowledge onto the other.
This way we can keep the spell and it also means you can't "freelance" the knowledge of the power runes (i.e. someone that already knows the rune has to be there with you during the ritual).
btw, I like how this is developing already!
RITUAL OF RUNES
This ritual must be completed by a member of the cult of Odin, Thor, Frey and Freyja, or Loki every time they attempt to learn a new Rune of Power. The ritual involves the ceremonial death of the participant, and his journey to the Outer Planes in order to find the knowledge he needs.
The ritual begins with the participant ingesting a specially prepared poison which will put him in an indefinite comatose state. Know Runes is cast upon the participant and he is then placed in a certain location depending upon his cult of origin (placed in a waterproof coffin and sunk in a bog for Odin, buried in the earth for Thor, laid to rest on a funeral pyre for Frey and Freyja, or sealed in darkness for Loki). Each day the participant is in a coma, he looses one point of Constitution (which may be regained in the normal ways). After the ninth day the participant is revived by another member of the cult, and neutralize poison and other curative spells are cast upon him.
POWER RUNE [GENERAL or ITEM CREATION??]
Prerequisite: Must be a member of the cult of Odin, Thor, Frey and Fryja, or Loki, and have completed the Ritual of Runes. Each time this feat is taken, the Ritual of Runes must be completed again. The character may take this feat without first performing the Ritual of Runes, but until he has done so, he will not gain the benefits of this feat.
Benefit: You are able to accurately inscribe a Rune of Power, given to you by your patron Immortal (Odin, Thor, Frey and Freyja, or Loki). Runes thusly inscribed can be activated by the use of the Bless Rune spell. Taking this feat grants you knowledge of a single Rune of Power. This feat can be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different Rune of Power. See each individual Rune of Power for its effects.
Normal: You may know the names and meanings of Runes of Power, but you are not able to inscribe them so that they can be activated by the Bless Rune spell.
Just throwing out another possibility here. I know that the Northern Reaches Gaz puts a restriction on the number of runes you can inscribe based on the number of 3rd level divine spell slots you possess. What if instead, we make this an Item Creation feat and assign an XP cost each time a character inscribes a run?
I’ve chosen one of the runes as a test case. I’m not exactly sure how to handle them, so for this one I just went through and picked the 3 spells that matched its effects closest.
RAIDU JOURNEYING
1) Alarm spell (Brd/Wiz/Sor 1)
2) Know Direction (Brd/Drd 0)
3) Bear’s Endurance (Clr 2)
Well, here is the problem. We are essentially creating a mechanic where a divine spellcaster can swap out a 2nd level spell (Bless Rune) for some other spell effect. In this case they have a choice of a 0th, 1st, or second level spell effect. That hardly seems like a benefit.
I think it’s going to take a little bit more work to actually make these runes playable, but I think we can do it if we set our minds to it.
I am sort of hesitant to comment on your ideas of treating Power Rune Feats as Item Creation Feats. I'm not saying it is a bad idea, I'm just not all that knowledgable about Item creation.
I had something different in mind though. In my version, the Power Feat rune is required to activate the rune, not just to carve it. In fact to carve a Rune, a Craft (runecarving) check must be made (DC15). Even people who do not fully understand the power of the runes may carve magic into the runes, but only someone who has the relevant Power Rune Feat may actually activate it.
Each Power Rune has a list of spells assoicated with it. To activate it the Rune Carver must pay by losing a prepared spell of the same level. To keep it balanced, I think as many as 9 spells (one for each level) should be assigned to the Feat. IIRC Complete Divine, allows characters to buy new Domains with Feats, so this would be to keep it balanced with the Domains. Perhaps the Runes could even be attached to domains. That would save us some work, if we could find Domains that fit.
IMO, a Rune Caster class should be a prestige class rather than a Core Class. The Power of the Runes should be available to all spell casters, divine and arcane.
A connection to the Cryptologists of Glantri could be interesting aswell, if we could make it fit, somehow.
Håvard
I am sort of hesitant to comment on your ideas of treating Power Rune Feats as Item Creation Feats. I'm not saying it is a bad idea, I'm just not all that knowledgable about Item creation.
Well, neither am I. The reason I brought it up is that the Rune Caster is creating a semi permanent object which can be reused again and again. They don't carve a rune each time they want to use it, they carve runes at certian locations, on items, etc... and if carved on items the runes can be taken with them, just like a magic item. Also anyone who casts the Bless Rune spell could activate the rune (making it very item-like).
I had something different in mind though. In my version, the Power Feat rune is required to activate the rune, not just to carve it. In fact to carve a Rune, a Craft (runecarving) check must be made (DC15). Even people who do not fully understand the power of the runes may carve magic into the runes, but only someone who has the relevant Power Rune Feat may actually activate it.
Ahh... now in this case, I would say the feat should not be an item creation feat because only the character who has it gains any benefit from it. There are lots of ways we can work this thing (and I'm not saying that any one is right or wrong) Least Dragonmark feats in Eberron grant the feat taker the choice of a single spell like effect x times per day. The lower level effect 2/day and the higher level effect 1/day. They also grant an ability bonus in certian circumstances. Lesser Marks and Greater Marks offer more powerful spell like powers at 1/day, and require the feats below them as prerequisites.
We could do something similar and have the feat be the ability to carve and use a particular rune's powers. Additional feats could be taken to expand upon the power of that rune, or to gain a new rune. This might become complicated though, and I kind of like the idea of doing something Domain like for aquiring multiple powers.
Each Power Rune has a list of spells assoicated with it. To activate it the Rune Carver must pay by losing a prepared spell of the same level. To keep it balanced, I think as many as 9 spells (one for each level) should be assigned to the Feat. IIRC Complete Divine, allows characters to buy new Domains with Feats, so this would be to keep it balanced with the Domains. Perhaps the Runes could even be attached to domains. That would save us some work, if we could find Domains that fit.
Do you thing we would have to build up full domains (all 9 levels) or could we build up half domains (with 4 or 5 powers) and make them balanced? Perhaps by offering the caster the ability to cast the spell at a much lower level than normally required?
Another question. Do you see this as spontaneous casting, or as domain casting? For example would a cleric be able to cast Rune X multiple times per day (without having prepared it) just by swapping out spells of appropriate levels? Or would it take the extra domain slot (and compete with other domains for that slot)? Having it be the former seems to make these rune feats slightly more powerful (and off balance) with normal extra domain feats. Spontaneous casting is big, especially for a cleric or wizard. Perhaps limiting the spells in the domain to 5th level or below would make up for this? Don't know.
IMO, a Rune Caster class should be a prestige class rather than a Core Class. The Power of the Runes should be available to all spell casters, divine and arcane.
I agree with you... at least for the way we are handling Runes of Power. I was thinking however that a watered down version of the runes could be made usable by a core class like the Artificer (from Eberron). It's a seperate discussion from the one we're having really, although related. Think of this: A core rune class would be able to inscribe one off runes... The have to be inscribed on some object, and after some period of time they would fade away. They could be used by anyone who knew the runes, or the words to activate them, but once used they would fade away. Mechanics wise it's very similar to the artificer, but it has a very different flavor to it. Could really work well for shaman like characters in the northern reaches, atraughin clans, humanoid lands, etc...
A connection to the Cryptologists of Glantri could be interesting aswell, if we could make it fit, somehow.
Has anyone ever done 3E conversions for the secret crafts? Are they on the vaults? ...yes, I'm being lazy ;).
Anyway, this is a great discussion. Keep it coming.
Anyway, this is a great discussion. Keep it coming.
Indeed! Good work on the ritual and feat write-up, Chimpman!
I looks like my role in this discussion will be as the voice of "keep it simple". My personal veiw of using the power runes is to use them almost exactly as in the gaz, modified by using feats with the rituals. (Btw, we could call the feats "Power Rune (specific name) Feat".)
As for the type of feat that the Power Rune feats would be, I think it depends on how we determine the feats work. If the feat is needed during the ritual to learn of the divine aspects of the rune, then it would be a general feat, as it bestows knowledge. If the feat is required to carve the rune itself (as opposed to needing it in the ritual), then it would be an item creation feat. I'm leaning towards the general feat myself.
I would still use the spell Bless Rune to activate a power rune. True, the power of the effect may be less than a second level spell in some instances, BUT, the spell may be used on any power rune available and for any of three or more powers of each rune. Even if only one rune is available to the caster, the spell balances itself by being flexible in the effect it has. It acts similar to spontaneous casting.
How would domains work for each Rune of Power? Would the Power Rune feat grant the domain? Thats alot of work to do all those. Anyhow, let the discussion continue!
Well, neither am I. The reason I brought it up is that the Rune Caster is creating a semi permanent object which can be reused again and again. They don't carve a rune each time they want to use it, they carve runes at certian locations, on items, etc... and if carved on items the runes can be taken with them, just like a magic item. Also anyone who casts the Bless Rune spell could activate the rune (making it very item-like).
Hmmm...after having given this some more thought, I think we should consider going back to the Item Creation Feat thing. I'd also consider having Bless Rune a Feat rather than a spell. So each rune of power must be selected as a separate (item creation) feat and bless Rune must be selected once.
Creating runes should be cheaper than imbuing an item with a the same number of spells, because of the limited use of a Rune engraved item. The runes can only be activated by someone posessing the Bless Rune feat, and the runes will drain spell casting slots from the one who activates the rune.
Actually, reading further down in your post you seem to suggest the same thing.
Do you thing we would have to build up full domains (all 9 levels) or could we build up half domains (with 4 or 5 powers) and make them balanced? Perhaps by offering the caster the ability to cast the spell at a much lower level than normally required?
Another question. Do you see this as spontaneous casting, or as domain casting? For example would a cleric be able to cast Rune X multiple times per day (without having prepared it) just by swapping out spells of appropriate levels? Or would it take the extra domain slot (and compete with other domains for that slot)? Having it be the former seems to make these rune feats slightly more powerful (and off balance) with normal extra domain feats. Spontaneous casting is big, especially for a cleric or wizard. Perhaps limiting the spells in the domain to 5th level or below would make up for this? Don't know.
These are definately questions to consider. If we make the Bless Rune a separate feat, that allows us to make the rune a bit more powerful. My thought was that the runes will allow for spontanous casting, though it will drain one slot, not double. How many spells each rune should have, should be balanced against this. What do you think? Limiting it to 5th level spells is a possibility, but im not sure
On the issue of Rune Caster being a PrC:
I agree with you... at least for the way we are handling Runes of Power. I was thinking however that a watered down version of the runes could be made usable by a core class like the Artificer (from Eberron). It's a seperate discussion from the one we're having really, although related. Think of this: A core rune class would be able to inscribe one off runes... The have to be inscribed on some object, and after some period of time they would fade away. They could be used by anyone who knew the runes, or the words to activate them, but once used they would fade away. Mechanics wise it's very similar to the artificer, but it has a very different flavor to it. Could really work well for shaman like characters in the northern reaches, atraughin clans, humanoid lands, etc...
Interesting possibility.
Has anyone ever done 3E conversions for the secret crafts? Are they on the vaults? ...yes, I'm being lazy ;).
This link is the only thing I've found:
http://dnd.starflung.com/sevnpres.html
Anyway, this is a great discussion. Keep it coming.
Agreed
Håvard
How would domains work for each Rune of Power? Would the Power Rune feat grant the domain? Thats alot of work to do all those. Anyhow, let the discussion continue!
I agree with your first statment. Keep it simple. As simple as can be. However at the moment I'm having trouble believing that we can rip the Runes straight from Gaz 7 without any modification. The power levels just don't seem to match 3.5E. There may not be any way around it, we might just have to convert the 24 runes.
Before we do that though, I suggest putting up a few more straw men. There's no need to convert all 24 runes before we know if what we're doing is the right thing. Here is a list of things I'd like to see and compare:
1) Rune Feats as item creation feats.
2) Rune Feats as domain feats.
3) Rune Feats as general feats (which I think we may already have).
Most importantly i think we need to throw a few Rune Powers out there. It might be easier for us to decide how to implement Runes if we know exactly what they are supposed to do.
Also, let me try to sum up the different mechanics we have been discussing for actually activating runes:
1) By using the Bless Rune (level 2) spell. In essence this means preparing the Bless Rune spell and being able to swap it out for a Rune effect.
2) Spontaneous casting. This is similar to number one, but the Bless Rune spell is not used. Any spell (of appropriate level) may be swapped out to produce a Rune effect.
Either way you slice it, I think we are going to have to really examine the power level of Rune effects to make sure that it comes out balanced.
Anyway, I'll take a stab at some of these over the next week or so. If somebody wants to beat me to it, please be my guest ;).
by Chimpman
Before we do that though, I suggest putting up a few more straw men. There's no need to convert all 24 runes before we know if what we're doing is the right thing. Here is a list of things I'd like to see and compare:
1) Rune Feats as item creation feats.
2) Rune Feats as domain feats.
3) Rune Feats as general feats (which I think we may already have).
Here's some quick thoughts (short on time)
1) Rune Feats as item creation feats.
As an item creation feat, it would allow the cleric to inscribe a power rune with its magical properties, but isn't used (normally anyhow) to activate the rune (or magic item). This option leaves room for the bless rune spell to be used as the activation trigger.
2) Rune Feats as domain feats.
This option doesn't deal with the creation of a power rune, but rather the use of one; i.e. its effects. In this case, we could still use the inscribe rune spell for creating the runes and the feat would permit the activation of the rune's effects.
3) Rune Feats as general feats.
This *does* give us the greatest flexibility in determining exactly what the feat does. We could chose which spells to use and the rest would be replaced by the feat's benefits.
Basic, I know, but there's a start for the analyzing. Personally, I'd like to keep the spells if possible, but it just might not work out that way; we'll have to see. Mechanically, I think our biggest challenge isn't the activation of the runes, but rather it's the effects and balancing them. Got to go. Tear into it!