As you may have surmised, our topic is the fantabulous Wizards' Conclave novel.
What did you all like or dislike about it?
I enjoyed seeing Dalamar again, and seeing Jenna installed as the Head of the Conclave was interesting. Dalamar's blond lock description was irritating.
As for Coryn ... I'm not quite sure what to think about her. Her extreme youth and power were both somewhat disturbing. It doesn't seem as though she truly earned any of the power thrust upon her. That she is Solinari's Chosen is also something I'm not quite sure how to approach. Does this mean she gets fancy rule-bending benefits like the Chosen of Mystra from the FRCS receive? Is the fact that she's Chosen the reason she appears to have gained so much power in such a little time and also why she can cast spells in a fairly unique fashion? Perhaps Coryn wouldn't bother me so much if she wasn't so damn young. I know times are desperate ... but a 17 year old as Head of the White Robes? Why not make that elderly Silvanesti the Head of the White Robes?
Her physical appearance and origin also were problematic. She is described as being dark of skin with dark hair, typical of those living in Ice Reach ... um, since when? Last I checked the people of Ice Reach were pale and had light hair. Incidentally, this is the exact same reason I found Goldmoon's appearance irritating (she's a blonde, blue-eyed, pale-skinned plainswoman when every other plainsperson we've ever seen is dark-haired, dark-eyed, and dark-skinned). Same with Dalamar, a dark-haired, dark-eyed Silvanesti when every other description we've got of the Silvanesti describes them as being light-haired and light-eyed.
Ah well, here's to hoping we can actually talk about novels.
EDIT: Oh yeah, despite my apparent whining, I really did enjoy the novel.
Which I guess makes me wonder. Do we expect our mages to be iconic in some way? Certainly people expect their Jedi and Sith to be in the Star Wars universe. Is that why the new nasty blind dwarf is so popular? Or Raistlin? Is that what we should be striving for with wizard NPC's. A unique visual package?
Originally posted by ferratus
Well, her youth is probably to connect to the demographic. Old nerds like us not withstanding, I imagine that most readers are in their early teens. Raistlin was young, Dalamar was young, so that might be why Corwyn is young. As it stands though, I imagine that Corwyn won't stick around forever and will be replaced with a more interesting character. Like Dunbar the old head of the white robes. She doesn't seem to have grabbed anyone's imagination. Then again, neither has Jenna and Dalamar seems to be losing his luster.
You mean Coryn? ;)
As to age ... maybe. Raistlin and Dalamar were young, but not that young (they were roughly in their mid-20s or the equivalent thereto). As to the comparison to Dunbar, I'm not so sure it's a valid comparison. AFAIK, Dunbar made one appearance in one short story, and that's it. Even then, his appearance wasn't essential to the story. Coryn is a rather different matter, since the entire Wizards' Conclave novel centers exclusively on her experiences ... and I have this distinct feeling we'll be seeing more of her in future novels.
Which I guess makes me wonder. Do we expect our mages to be iconic in some way? Certainly people expect their Jedi and Sith to be in the Star Wars universe. Is that why the new nasty blind dwarf is so popular? Or Raistlin? Is that what we should be striving for with wizard NPC's. A unique visual package?
The mages with unique appearances seem to be the most popular in Dragonlance ... Raistlin, Dalamar (who looks nothing like the vast majority of Silvanesti), and now Willim the Black. The more iconic mage characters seem far more dull ... Par-Salian, Jenna, Justarius, etc.
Originally posted by iltharanos
and I have this distinct feeling we'll be seeing more of her in future novels.
Well, I wouldn't bet against you on that one. ;)
Dalmar for Black Robes
Jenna for Red Robes
Coryn for White Robes
Just want to make sure. I don't plan on reading the book, but plan on keeping with its history in my campaign.
Originally posted by Sysane
So am I to understand the following people are the order heads :
Dalmar for Black Robes
Jenna for Red Robes
Coryn for White Robes
Just want to make sure. I don't plan on reading the book, but plan on keeping with its history in my campaign.
That's correct. Jenna is head of all the Orders.
I only have two issues that I wasn't really happy with. The first was I thought Coryn was a little too "munchkin". I mean.. see a spell cast a spell? It kind of blows the whole "study for years" type of thing out of the water. I guess that's what an Epiphany would be like though... *shrug* but it made her a bit uber powerful.. I mean why should she ever bother to read a spell book now?
The second problem I had was with the stereotype of the villain. Yes, he was the embodiment of Wild, Chaotic Sorcery at it's worse. But is that how all wizards will now view Sorcery? I hope not. Not every sorcerer is like that maniac and I hope we can see some examples of wizards and sorcerers interacting in other novels without trying to blow each other's heads off.
BTW, was it just me, or should Jenna and Dalamar maybe have told the rest of the wizards... "don't use magic directly against the bad guy" to the other wizards a little sooner than they did.
I actually liked the fact that Coryn used Sorcery to defeat Kalrakin (or whatever his name was). Even with ALL her great power as a Wizard of High Sorcery she had to resort to wild sorcery to win. :D Fight fire with Fire I guess...
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
BTW, was it just me, or should Jenna and Dalamar maybe have told the rest of the wizards... "don't use magic directly against the bad guy" to the other wizards a little sooner than they did.
I'm surprised they didn't blow up the roof above him and let the pieces fall on top of him, or use a levitate spell and throw things at him.
Coryn had the right idea with the bow, though.
Originally posted by talinthas
this story cheesed me off in a lot of ways. All i can say is that i hope this isnt the start of a trend, and that sorcerors aren't forever relegated to two-bit enemies and eliminated from the game.
The story is written from a wizard's point of view. I don't think this is a trend by any means.
GIve me a reason not to be paranoid, Trampas. Find some way to assure me that what we are seeing isn't in fact a slow reversal of the fifth age in such a way as to ease into erasing all the SAGA elements without really ******* off SAGA fans. Tell me that Dragonlance isn't going to end up at a place roughly equivalent to pre chaos war fourth age.
You may think i'm paranoid, but am i really? You see what i see, and beyond that, due to your relation with SP. What is the word from on high? will this fifth age really blend the fandoms as everyone says?
then again, i will buy it anyway. and when they come out, i will complain for a few days and then try to find a way to blend my personal DL with published DL. and then i will be nothing but praises, despite my fears of being marginalised. it's a hard life, being a fanboy.
In the end, all i can do is keep a positive attitude, continue contributing to fandom, and hope someday that i too get tapped to add my mark to krynn. I hear there is a taladas source book on the way =)
If wild magic and moon magic have never co-existed before, you'd think there would be some debate about this. If I was a wizard, I'd at least pause for a moment to wonder if perhaps it might not be better to supervise sorcery rather than make war upon it.
I am a little suspicious too that sorcerer is going to become interchangable with "renegade". That would pave the way for WoHS becoming clerics who just happen to cast arcane spells, and thus be stripped of their magic whenever they step out of line.
I also fear that black robes will be constrained to such a degree that they will no longer allowed to be villains as a result.
As for the 5th Age becoming a pre-Chaos War 4th Age, I wouldn't worry about that. After all, we have a pre-Chaos War 4th Age sourcebook coming out. The current continuity is 5th Age continuity, for good or ill.
You have a greater worry Talinthas with the WotL book vastly outselling the 5th Age/WoS gaming line. Then there would be incentive to continue a 4th Age series of gaming books. Again, if that outsells the 5th Age stuff, then perhaps Sovereign Press will drop the WoS stuff and concentrate on the 4th Age with a rebooted continuity. I have to say that this wouldn't displease me.
However, I don't think that is very likely either. After all, the novel line is 5th Age, and seems to still be selling well. Of course, if they start a "Classics" line of novels that doesn't involve minor characters from the modules, maybe those would sell better than the 5th Age stuff too.
Difficult to see, the future is.
Originally posted by talinthas
I can only hope, my friend. But with Dragonlance, i will believe it when i see it, because i've been burned too many times by this setting on things i thought were a given to balance out.
I totally understand, Tal.
GIve me a reason not to be paranoid, Trampas. Find some way to assure me that what we are seeing isn't in fact a slow reversal of the fifth age in such a way as to ease into erasing all the SAGA elements without really ******* off SAGA fans. Tell me that Dragonlance isn't going to end up at a place roughly equivalent to pre chaos war fourth age.
I can't say for certain what's going to happen. I do know that some of the 4th age elements are being re-established. I also know that there will be a conflict of some sort, so sorcerers and mystics are not gone yet. Indeed, this conflict may very well help to define the modern era.
I think many fan questions will be answered with Towers of High Sorcery.
You may think i'm paranoid, but am i really? You see what i see, and beyond that, due to your relation with SP. What is the word from on high? will this fifth age really blend the fandoms as everyone says?
I'm not sure what exactly is going to happen.
Right now, there's not only the re-establishment of 4th age elements, but a change in the direction of the novels. It's the biggest change in the setting since SAGA was introduced.
It's only natural to be a bit uncertain when big changes like this happen.
What I do know, just from the standpoint of a storyteller, is that the setting will not be as it was. Perhaps some elements will fade into the background, and others removed entirely (i.e. Malys). Some elements may be redefined or have a new outlook, while others (such as magic) will come into the spotlight.
Only time will tell, my friend. I wish I had the answers you seek.
then again, i will buy it anyway. and when they come out, i will complain for a few days and then try to find a way to blend my personal DL with published DL. and then i will be nothing but praises, despite my fears of being marginalised. it's a hard life, being a fanboy.
Believe it or not, I do that to an extent in my own way. ;)
In the end, all i can do is keep a positive attitude, continue contributing to fandom, and hope someday that i too get tapped to add my mark to krynn. I hear there is a taladas source book on the way =)
You never know!
Keep smiling, my man.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I have to go on record and say that I dont think that the War of the Lance book will sell any better than the Age of Mortals line has.....
While I see your point, I'm going to disagree.
I think it is safe to assume that most DL fans, whether 4th age or 5th age fans, are all fans of Chronicles and the War of the Lance. Beyond that, we have differences of opinion.
While there are those who will buy anything DL-related, there are others who will only pick up the products that are geared to what they enjoy. I know some fans have not picked up Age of Mortals, and are awaiting War of the Lance.
I do think War of the Lance will at least sell as well as Age of Mortals, although I suspect it will surpass it, becoming Sovereign Press' best selling book ever.
Only time will tell the tale.
Now..saying this..I hope to see that they start hunting them down and either start getting a rude awakening and realize they cant beat them all, or over time the wizards (and the Moon Gods) realize that maybe sorcery can exist..but regulated like the wizards magic.
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
The second problem I had was with the stereotype of the villain. Yes, he was the embodiment of Wild, Chaotic Sorcery at it's worse. But is that how all wizards will now view Sorcery? I hope not. Not every sorcerer is like that maniac and I hope we can see some examples of wizards and sorcerers interacting in other novels without trying to blow each other's heads off.
Yes. Kalrakin (the "BBES") was quite stereotypical as villain. I think they tried to offset this with his lackey Luthar, who didn't at all strike me as entirely disagreeable. Of course, Luthar was stereotypical in his own way, what with his constant cringing and kow-towing towards Kalrakin and his constant cries of "Master! Master!! The Wizards are coming!!!"
Another thing that bugged me about the novel is the epiphany of all the former Wizards of High Sorcery. For me, it would have made far more sense for the epiphany to have occurred during the so-called Night of Two Moons when the Gods first returned.
Why would it take some special spell requiring White, Red, and Black robe mages to cause an epiphany? This surely would have been necessary for the ones that were young and never knew the sight of the three moons rising in the night sky ... but how does this make sense for all the old fogeys that lived prior to the Chaos War?
Jenna lived prior to the Chaos War and already had her wizardly magic at the start of the novel. Why wasn't this the case with the elderly Silvanesti White Robe, or any of the others?
The only reason I can think of is that many of the old fogeys no longer had or had access to their spellbooks, and thus could not immediately benefit from the return of the Moon Gods ... but surely this wasn't the case for ALL of the former Wizards of High Sorcery? It would make sense for those such as Willim the Black who was confined to some dark hole in the ground ... but what about all the others?
[b]Iltharanos:[/b]
Why would it take some special spell requiring White, Red, and Black robe mages to cause an epiphany? This surely would have been necessary for the ones that were young and never knew the sight of the three moons rising in the night sky ... but how does this make sense for all the old fogeys that lived prior to the Chaos War?
Well, there were those interludes when the moon gods were hurling spells at the planet and the spells were just absorbed into the wild magic energy. The moons/moon gods were back in the sky, but they still had to "re-give" their gift of High Sorcery to the world; the spell Jenna, Dalamar, & Coryn cast was probably something like jump-starting a battery.
Regarding the anti-sorcery bent...ehh, like people said, it's the perspective of the novel and re-establishing the WOHS. I think it's just setting up a great dramatic/thematic conflict rather than trying to eliminate or villify primal sorcery universally.
[b]Kipper:[/b]
Over all I enjoyed the book. The interaction between Jenna and Dalamar was great. She has all this pent up emotion about growing old while he's still young and I bet it's really ticking her off.
I thought this was great as well. I think some felt their relationship was not discussed enough, but I found this very subtle manner of touching on it very amusing...like I kind of felt in on an inside joke. ;) Not to be too negative but in general I was expecting a little more elegant telling from Niles (truth be told, though, I did read it rather quickly), but the tension between Jenna & Dalamar was my favorite part of the book and made up for it. There were also a few other choice pieces--like Willim the Black was a total bad*****, except when he got sucked into a door. That was weak... :P
I'm kind of surprised with Coryn's character though. I know she's Solinari's chosen and all, but really, she just has to see a spell to be able to perform it? Isn't high sorcery all about the studying to memorize spells? It also kind of irked me that she got to be head of the white robes when she clearly isn't old enough to have the wisdom needed to steer them in the right direction.
All in all though, I liked the book. Willim was great
I hope we get another book based around the wizards.What we needed was a vindictive and angry white robe to lead the conclave. Like the Kingpriest, but not as much of a douche.
And for the record, I disliked the SAGA system. I love the way the AoM and DLCS are written. It pretty much meshes 99% with my view of Dragonlance.
I may be in the minority here, but hey, a guy hasta have an opinion, right?
-TRRW
Some of the reasons have already been mentioned in the posts above.
But - for me - there are some more:
The cover looks to me somewhat Harry-Potter-like. Sorry.
Jenna's and Dalamar's relationship was only hinted at - at least some words (between J and D) to explain the tension and their former relationship (esp. to non-DL Fans that might read the book).
All in all, I found all of the characters pretty flat.
Also, Coryn and the big bad sorcerer (with his Irda stone) were quite overpowered. And Coryn having to refer to sorcery, esp. the "3-arrow" spell to overcome Kalkarin was quite foreseeable.
Also, the descriptions of Coryn's wizardly magic differed: one time she repeated a spell, another time it's written, she wouldn't be able to use another one until she had (studied? it again?).
And e.g. the Master of the Tower almost ridicuously weak, or rather dumb.
Like Dragonhelm said, I'm also surprised why they/esp. the Master of the Tower didn't let pieces (of the tower) fall on top of him, or use a levitate spell and throw things at him. Or squash him between walls.
And where are those magical creatures when you need them? Not even one golem in the whole Tower?? No undead? No monsters?
What about summoning spells? None of the wizards employed any summoning spells ... Did they forget to?
Dalamar, the great archmage Dalamar, having no access to even a simple spell book at the beginning??? To me, that's a bit unbelievable. What about former apprentices he could go to - or e.g. a hidden cache of magic he knows about/a hideout with some spellbooks/items in case he'd need it sometime, e.g. in a conflict with a rival? Such a mighty archmage without some backup magic items and books hidden somewhere?
My Biggest Issue:
I don't really get it why the 3 gods of magic have a problem with wild sorcery, why do they call it "corruption". Maybe I'm missing information from the DLCS, the AoM or other 3E sources????
As far as I understand from DL.com, the appendix in DoVM ... the source (ambient magic) that powers sorcery is refined by the 3 moon gods themselves into the source for the high sorcery (focused magic) used by wizards.
And what about the "new magic" being a gift by the departing gods (I know, they didn't really depart, that Takhisis stole Krynn)?
But mages should - at least until told/until they know otherwise - view sorcery like that. And now many former wizards are so "corrupted" that they're lost for "high sorcery"??? At least in the novels there's wasn't a hint to that. In that case, especially Dalamar and Palin should be counted among the corrupted ones, because they actively researched sorcery - and as far as I know they were among the most powerful sorcerers ... Well, maybe that was balanced by them being former powerful wizards??
Why, if sorcery is blasphemy to the 3 gods, did they allow e.g. dragons and scions (among others) to walk upon Krynn --- before the WoS??
As far as I know, since 3e, scions are sorcerers ... and other creatures also use ambient magic.
But then, that might contradict scions teaching the / some of the first wizards and in that manner serving the 3 gods of magic??? At least I think I remember something like that ... Isn't there written something about that in some novels??
Maybe scions should be wizards? But what about the other creatures?
Why are the "big magic three" not able to influence the happenings personally? Why don't they go there in person and take the Irda stone away - at least in one or two novels - e.g. in Brothers of Arms - there are references to one of the magic three (e.g. Luni, dear Luni) walking upon Krynn???
Free will? No, I don't think that's a valid argument in this case - in Wizards' Conclave it seems to me, as if the Gods of Magic are even threatened by sorcery ... Kalkarin - granted, he is mad - even speaks of becoming a god, if I remember correctly.
At least, their orders and all of their followers (on Ansalon - once again in the role of representative of Krynn??) are threatened.
As far as I understand it, the Magic Three canalize ambient magic (wild magic) into focused magic (wizard magic), and so their magic & the magic of their followers should be stronger than the unrefined wild sorcery, shouldn't it?
Well, do I miss important information from the official 3E sources DLCS; AoM; ToHS??? Is that why I don't understand?
If yes, the such information should have been included in Wizards' Conclave ... just my opinion.
Maybe the book contains too much action, not enough information??
Maybe there have been too much (rules) changes to how magic works on Krynn?? Too many cooks (changes) spoil the broth?
Well, well, in my opinion, what's done to Krynn's magic in this book doesn't fit.
Granted, it was somewhat entertaining to read (and of course I'm a long-time DL fan and want to now what happens on Krynn), but that's it.
Douglas Niles can definitely do better (as he proved in The Dragons, The Kagonesti and some other older novels).
The form of ambient magic used by mortals ("wild magic") is tainted/corrupted/affected by Chaos, whose energies still permeate Krynn and will do for some time. It is these energies which alter the ambient magic of the world enough to allow mortals to use it for sorcery and mysticism. This was heavily played down in the early Age of Mortals, as Takhisis certainly didn't want people to know that it was risky or dangerous. The last time it was used by mortals extensively, it raged out of control and devastated large regions of Ansalon with magical storms, chaos effects, surges of power, etc.
The form of ambient magic used by dragons and other magical creatures is unadulterated by Chaos. They don't need Chaos' energies to use it, and thus it operates a lot more cleanly. Unfortunately, mortals can't use it, so they can't be taught how to use it by dragons or fey. They can learn secrets and techniques, of course - this happened to Bram diThon and Ulin and other individuals, but it's not the same as using it directly.
The magic used by wizards is not so much filtered wild magic (as the Appendix states) but primal magic refined by the power of the moons and sent into the world for wizards to tap into. It, like the magic of dragons and fey, is not tainted by Chaos, and indeed it carries with it some measure of divine power locked into place by the rituals and formulae that wizards need to use in order to access it. It's more reliable, but carries a price just as wild magic does. In the case of wizards, they become very attached to it, as it takes up a lot of their energy and is almost addictive. It's even more addictive when the wizard has a commitment to one of the gods of magic after the Test and can receive the benefit of the moon phases - then, it becomes an exclusive power that forbids even forms of divine spellcasting.
I thought the book did a very good job of portraying the wizard's viewpoint as mandated by the gods. It's interesting that we learn that not all sorcerers are power-mad freaks, as Coryn certainly isn't. She became less enchanted with wild magic after she experienced the Test and wizard magic, but she still had that instinctive understanding of wild magic which sorcerers possess. She has a lot to deal with in the coming years.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
So sorcery is something that may fade away in time as the effects of Chaos subside?
It did before, so I could see it happening again. However, the full force of Chaos is behind ambient magic this time around, so if it does fade, it'll probably be a very long time before it does.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
A couple of important points regarding ambient or "wild" magic.
The form of ambient magic used by mortals ("wild magic") is tainted/corrupted/affected by Chaos, whose energies still permeate Krynn and will do for some time.
[snip]
The form of ambient magic used by dragons and other magical creatures is unadulterated by Chaos. They don't need Chaos' energies to use it, and thus it operates a lot more cleanly. Unfortunately, mortals can't use it, so they can't be taught how to use it by dragons or fey.
[snip] [snip]
[snip][snip][snip]
The magic used by wizards is not so much filtered wild magic (as the Appendix states) but primal magic refined by the power of the moons and sent into the world for wizards to tap into.
I see, so the moons aren't the pool of magic, they are the gateway to magic. The key.
So you have other things which are the key which include the souls of the dead (Dalamar, Tiphan from Brother of the Dragon), artifacts (Tiphon again), magical blood (dragons, fey, Bram Di Thon) and transformation (Galan Dracos, Scions, Tiphon yet again).
With the destruction of Chaos, the gateway was shattered. Now it can accessed by anyone who has the strength to summ
Frankly, that does make things a lot simpler. Rather than talking about filtering magic, or where magic went, or all sorts of complex explanations we are trying to make for why wild sorcery suddenly showed up out of the blue.
I don't think we need to say however that Chaos magic is necessarily entropic anymore. After all, the game rules don't back it up do they? Plus, it is just annoyed the 5th Age fans anyway.
We can go back to the old explanation of how magic is dangerous unless you are properly trained and controlled. Being granted power by an artifact, a transformation, or an accident of birth led to real problems. I mean, look what happened to Tiphon or Vedivisca.
So the gods of magic created an institution to train those with magical potential, so that the wild magic didn't leak into them anyway and consume them (aka. Raistlin's mother, Tiphon).
Of course, after the Summer of Chaos and the War of Souls the Gods of Magic are desperately trying to keep a lid on things. They don't understand that since magic is now available for anyone to access, they cannot hunt down or convert a few troublemakers.
Now I've said before that unless you want to get of sorcerers entirely, or relegate them to a tiny sect of renegades that don't really impact the setting, then the only way to end this war is a compromise peace. I don't think the academy would come back, but I imagine sorcerers would be handled with a looser hand than in the past. So the local sorcerer with an apprentice or two would be left alone if she was living quietly (or at least showed control of her powers even if she is an evil *&#@), while the sorcerer who turned 2 city blocks of Caergoth into rubble would not.
Now obviously that won't mechanically stand in 3.5, but there is nothing wrong with where their powers came from. Making them chaos touched or taught by takhisis only serves to villify the powers, and basically relegate them to heretics and blasphemers. I'm almost insulted by how it's being handled so far.
Margaret's book will answer a lot of questions on how fifth age elements will be viewed in the new DL, i think.
I can understand the Dark Knights being evil and using sorc/myst since their patron is dead, but do we have to look at the poor hedge wizard or folk healer as blasphemous as well, just cause their powers are driven by nature? Will the Wizards (all 16 of em) go on a witch burning rampage and kill the thousands of sorcerors who are minding their own business?
Heck, if i was a sorceror, with the ability to do whatever i wanted with the ambient energy of the planet, why would i want to give in to the strict rules of the moons? Frankly, the whole story read like a missionary tract, and that in itself turned me off completely.
Originally posted by talinthas
Let me go on record as stating that i LOATHE the concept of sorcery and mysticism being chaos-tainted. SAGA had a perfectly elegant solution. Sorcery is the power of the planet itself, and sorcerors draw their energy from the world around them. Mysticism is the power within all people. Thus, sorcs can affect non living items and forces, and mystics can affect living.
That doesn't really work though. What about Spiritualism and Necromancy which involve dead spirits and dead flesh? What about summoning that works by teleporting or summoning living beings? I'm not knocking the sources, but the effects. It just doesn't really make sense. If mysticism was limited only to healing, shapeshifting, telepathy and plant magic then perhaps it would work. But they covered everything clerics used to be able to do. If sorcery was limited only to elemental magic then it would also make sense.
However when they wanted sorcerers to everything that wizards used to be able to, and mystis to do whatever druids and clerics used to be able to do... then they should have dropped the whole "mysticism only affects the living" and "sorcery only affects non-living" things.
Now obviously that won't mechanically stand in 3.5, but there is nothing wrong with where their powers came from. Making them chaos touched or taught by takhisis only serves to villify the powers, and basically relegate them to heretics and blasphemers.
Yep, pretty much. Explains what the difference is between Renegades and Black Robes too. However, it isn't really sustainable if you want good aligned sorcerer PC's.
Will the Wizards (all 16 of em) go on a witch burning rampage and kill the thousands of sorcerors who are minding their own business?
My position has always been that the white robes shouldn't, but nobody beleives me I'm afraid. Personally, I'd have the conclave divided on this issue. The white robes saying "We only have to hunt the dangerous sorcerers, the others can simply be supervised" while the Black Robes would say "No, we don't control them, so they've gotta go." Of course, Black Robes being Black Robes, they might come to see the wisdom of having sorcerer allies too.
Heck, if i was a sorceror, with the ability to do whatever i wanted with the ambient energy of the planet, why would i want to give in to the strict rules of the moons? Frankly, the whole story read like a missionary tract, and that in itself turned me off completely.
Cool robes, good job prospects, more power, the chance to carry on an honourable and ancient tradition, religious devotion.
What is really dividing the 5th Age fans from the traditionalists though is whether the Towers of High Sorcery should be an Order where wizards retreat to study magic... or whether they should be superheroes looking to control magic from dangerous sorcerers who step out of line.
See that is the thing. Wizards are becoming far too public and less mysterious with the sorcerers running around. They were once the keepers of unique secrets, veiled in mystery behind their towers. Now arcane magic is everywhere, and the wizards have ceased to become masters of the arcane, and instead have become "watchdogs of the arcane". Not quite as cool.
So Talinthas, everybody has given something up, and people are going to continue to give stuff up. We're just trying to figure out how this all fits together, when it was never meant to. A lot of things are going to be lost in flavour text on both sides.
Originally posted by ferratus
That doesn't really work though. What about Spiritualism and Necromancy which involve dead spirits and dead flesh?
Once-living material--besides, there are hints in some of the material that necromancy is of a different order than the other spheres of mysticism.
What about summoning that works by teleporting or summoning living beings?
Folding the space around those beings. :-)
Matthew L. Martin, Defender of (Some) Retconned Material. :-)
Why couldn't necromancy affect wood?
Why could mysticism reach into another reality to contact the souls of the dead?
Plus, what is up with the whole "combining sorcery and mysticism into a single spell?"
Nah, I think if you want to have the whole "living vs. non-living thing, you'd have to be much more precise.
Mysticism
Shapeshifting
- Enhance body
- shapechange
Plants
- plant control
- plant apotheosis
Healing
Telepathy
- enchantment and domination
- reading and detecting thoughts and emotions
- communication with animals
Of course, with the first two, you're really treading on the druid's toes, and with healing you pretty much take away the awe and wonder of true healing as a gift from the gods. So mystics aren't really needed for that. Now, telepaths I can see having a place.
Sorcery is a little different. Now you want it to cover all non-living things but there are problems. Illusion is as much about mentally confusing people as creating images, so I really don't see that being viable as a part of spectromancy. Nobody could manipulate light enough to create an image out of thin air, and what about sound?
I think if you want to go for the effect based non-living magic you pretty much have to go with effects that create raw energy or raw matter. Otherwise it necessarily involves living matter in a way it really shouldn't.
---Tamora Amberleaf
Originally posted by TamoraAmberleaf
I have a question that one of my players and I were discussing yesterday. Where was Ulin? No matter where he was on the continent, he would have received a summons from a God of Magic if it was destined for him. He would probably have been a better candidate to be the head of the white robes, in my opinion. I mean, he's of the line of Raistlin! That's got to count for something, it did for Palin.
---Tamora Amberleaf
Well, Ulin was at one point the first ever Dragon Sorcerer. Perhaps Ulin did receive a summons but chose to ignore it ... or perhaps he received no summons precisely because the Gods of Magic realized that he was too far seduced by the power of the Dark Side ... erm, Wild Magic.
For starters, I would like to know what was up with the wizards? They all seemed to have approximately the same, very limited spell list. Fireball, Lightnining Bolt, Fly, Levitate, Feather Fall, Haste, Teleport and Dimension Door. Coryn's big contribution was clever use of Transmute Rock to Mud.
Absolutely no creativity was employed in battling Kalrakin. Nobody seemed to know any of the Dispel magics or Antimagic Field. Everybody just seemed stupidly determined to hurl Invocations at him despite the fact that they knew the Irda Stone would absorb the spells.
Additionally, he was a pretty one-dimensional bad guy. Then again, perhaps he was meant to epitomize the influence of Chaos in wild magic.
It makes perfect sense that wild magic is tainted by Chaos. Chaos's ultimate goal was to unmake the world and unrestrained magic would go a long way towards furthering that goal. That doesn't make sorcerors bad people. It just makes them the equivalent of gasoline engines: they unwittingly pollute the world.
That fits in with the whole story of why the gods started the Orders of High Sorcery to begin with. The devastation that followed the use of wild magic to win ancient battles against the dragons would have encouraged people to stop playing with it.
Think of the world as a body of clear water. At the bottom of the water of sand, the elemental fabric of reality upon which the world rests. This is wild magic. When it is drawn up from it's place at the fundamental level it clouds the water. If left alone it eventually settles back down again and things become clear and pristine again.
When the gods came back the world was a murky mess from years of wild magic being kicked up. That was what occluded the powers of the gods of magic. In time proliferation of wild magic might have unforeseen consequences for the world, stimulating and preserving the presence of Chaos upon Krynn. Ultimately that could threaten the world in ways that sorcerors never intended.
Hence the gods want to reestablish some order, and so they want to restore High Sorcery.
Originally posted by Psionycx
The novel had holes you could throw the asteroid that sank Istar through!
I agree with your assestment of Wild Magic and the Wizards spell list selection, but where are the story holes you mention?
I also also recall reading once that the Tower of High Sorcery of Wayreth was indestructable. Krynn could explode and the Tower would survive, floating in space on an asteroid base. This Irda Stone did a nice work of bringing alot of it down.