I am left with a quandary. For balance reasons, I removed Dalamar's Lance (pg. 105) from my game this week. Our group is about to hit 7th level and I simply do not want it in the game. I find it to be very potent for its level in comparison to other 4th level spells yet a majority of my group members are lobbying hard to keep it in play.
Here are the vitals:
Evocation (Electricity)
Level: 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 100' + 10' per level
Effect: 1 Lightning Lance per 5/levels
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude for Half (special see below)
Spell Resistance: Yes
Levels
7-9 = 1 Lance
10-14 = 2 Lances
15+ = 3 Lances
1 Lance = 3d6 damage (no save) + d6 per level in electricty damage (10d Max save for half)
This spell could possibly inflict 26d6 to a single target at 10th level and 39d6 to a single target at 15th. Would you guys allow this spell into your game?
Stormhawk
You could try ruling that unless the first 3d6 of damage affects a creature with DR (treating the lance as a magic weapon) the electraicty has no effect either. I'm not sure how big an effect this would have (especially seeing as i don't have the beastiary of krynn yet) but it's bound to weaken it a little at least.
Alternertively you could rule that they can only throw one lance a round and lose the other lances if they do anything but throw them on subsequent rounds.
I highly doubt he'll teach it to them, more than likely just using it on them. But hey, if they survive the attack, they could make a spellcraft check to try and see how it worked to make their own version.
-TRRW
I am left with the choice of keeping as it reads or removing it. What would yo do as a DM?
Stormhawk
1) Requires a Ranged Touch attack. Most wizards have cruddy BAB and mediocre Dex mods. Most opponents at CR 7 have Touch ACs around 16. Beyond that, nearly 1/2 have Spell Resistance of some kind.
2) Fortitude Half. Most targets this spell will be used on have decent Fortitude Saves. Other than that, this is one of only about 5 spells that require both a Ranged Touch Attack and a Fortitude Save. Disintegrate comes to mind. Also very powerful for its level, but the RTA *AND* FS kinda start to balance it.
3) Protection for Elements may not negate any of the impact damage (9d6 for all 3 projectiles) but it could absorb most, if not all, of the electricity damage. You get a save for half first, before the effects of the PfE.
So realistically, unless you forget to have them make a RTA for each projectile individually or forget that the baddies get a fort save for half, it's on par with other "power spells" of each level. Sure, it's powerful, but not nearly as much as Rope Trick.
Look at Element Dart. At 11th level, you can do 5d6+50 damage. That's a base of 55 damage, no other spell can match that. Again, there's a RTA for each dart, and a Fortitude half, but still.
Just think of the scariness of an Energy Admixed Acid/Sonic Element Dart. At 15th level: 5d6+50 Acid Damage and 5d6+10 Sonic Damage. What 7th level spell deals 10d10+100 damage?
These spells are balanced as written due to the required RTA for EACH PROJECTILE and the Fortitude Save for half damage.
tl;dr: I'd allow it, but you still have to walk your sorry butt up to see Dalamar to learn it. If Dalamar isn't alive and/or his whereabouts are unknown, then no DalaLitLance for you.
-TRRW
I don't want to turn this into a discussion of the worth of touch spells but they are not as limiting as you describe - certainly not for a 10th level caster. Here is a setup where a 10th level caster encounters a pack of frost giants.
Frost Giant: CR 9
Fort Save: +14
Touch AC: 8
HP: 133
Mind you, you could even use a CR 10 or 11 FG and the touch AC would like not move much.
10th level arcane caster
Dex: 16 (magic 20)
Ranged Base Attack: +8 (5 + 3Dex)
Even without the magic to improve his/her dex, the caster needs a only a 1 to miss on a d20 roll. The chance to miss is there, yes, there are also SR and cover possibilities.
However, the Frost Giant does have an uber Fort Save, +14. I would guess that he would make the save - but how bad is the damage? The DC would probably be around 18 or so.
I hit = 11 pts (no save) and the other is about 19.
Both hit together are about 60 pts of damage in one round. Not too bad, still high for making the saves.
Obviously, there are NPC types with much lower Fort Saves and slightly better touch ACs. Touch AC hit numbers average much lower than 16 - it's based on Dex and Size. Most monsters do not have a touch AC of 16. That's just been my experience.
Potentially, this spell can unleashe and average of 110 pts of damage to a single target in a given round to a single if you don't make the saves. Just putting it in perspective for a 4th level spell.
Thanks again for contributing to this thread.
Stormhawk
And personally, I don't mind if the DL spells are a bit more powerful than the regular ones... It encourages players to stay in flavour and use the setting's feats/ spells/ powers/ prestige classes etc.
Night Hag: CR 9. Touch AC 11. Spell Resistance 25. Fort Save +12.
*rolls touch attack* rolled a 5. 5+8=13, which is enough to hit.
*rolls spell resistance* rolled a 10. 10 + 10 (caster level) = 20. oh nos! spell fizzles.
Your spellcasters are most likely not running into anything with spell resistance, deflection bonus magic items (Ring of Protection), high Dex, medium or smaller size size, or a combination of the above.
Throw a 6th level Rogue/4th level Hexblade with a RoP +2 and Gloves of Dex +4.
Touch AC will be somewhere around 18. Not that high, but with Evasion AND Mettle, if the little bugger makes the Fort Save, no damage.
Instead of limiting the choices of the players, create challenges to challenge their new power. Don't go negating everything they have, but remember to tailor encounters so that DalaLitLance won't solve all their problems.
-TRRW
p.s.: remember the rule of named spells, Dalamar ain't teaching DalaLitLance to no one, no way, no how. If they can't learn it, they can't cast it.
Originally posted by Stormhawk
I don't want to turn this into a discussion of the worth of touch spells but they are not as limiting as you describe - certainly not for a 10th level caster. Here is a setup where a 10th level caster encounters a pack of frost giants.
Against frost giants, our 10th level wizard's better off using an empowered fireball spell. No chance of missing a ranged touch attack there. Of course, no chance of scoring a critical hit to double the damage, either...
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by TheRedRobedWizard
Touch AC will be somewhere around 18. Not that high, but with Evasion AND Mettle, if the little bugger makes the Fort Save, no damage.
Incorrect. Evasion ONLY works for Reflex saves.
One pretty powerful spell is Scorching Ray. Does 12d6 damage at its height, no save. When maximized, it becomes a fifth level spell, but does 72 points of damage. Polar Ray is just as bad, but it is an 8th level spell.
As many others have stated, each of these spells has one drawback, you need to make a ranged touch attack. Of course, an easy way to get around this is Weapon Focus (Ray).
Originally posted by Daedavias
As many others have stated, each of these spells has one drawback, you need to make a ranged touch attack. Of course, an easy way to get around this is Weapon Focus (Ray).
Weapon Focus(Ray) is one of the more useless feats you can take, I believe. It doesn't work for all ranged touch attacks, only those that specify "Ray", of which there are only five: 1 each of 0 to 3rd level, and 1 8th-lvl one. And for only a +1 bonus to hit, I'm not very impressed.
Originally posted by Shnik
Weapon Focus(Ray) is one of the more useless feats you can take, I believe. It doesn't work for all ranged touch attacks, only those that specify "Ray", of which there are only five: 1 each of 0 to 3rd level, and 1 8th-lvl one. And for only a +1 bonus to hit, I'm not very impressed.
It's an excellent feat for a sorcerer. Not so much for anybody else.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Daedavias
Incorrect. Evasion ONLY works for Reflex saves.
I'm pretty sure that's why TRRW said Evasion AND Mettle. ;)
Mettle being the functional equivalent of Evasion, except it works for Fortitude and Will saves.
Touch AC will be somewhere around 18. Not that high, but with Evasion AND Mettle, if the little bugger makes the Fort Save, no damage.
If I am reading the spell description right from the first post then no matter if they save or not they still take some damage. That being the initial 3d6.
1 Lance = 3d6 damage (no save) + d6 per level in electricty damage (10d Max save for half)
Honestly I never saw a spell that adds + d6 per level that lets the initial part of the spell not have a save but the added d6 have one. Usually it is only when it just simply adds +1 per level ie just one more point of damage per level that they get divided saves.
Of course I do not even own the DLCS book so maybe I am just full of crap
Originally posted by iltharanos
I'm pretty sure that's why TRRW said Evasion AND Mettle. ;)
Mettle being the functional equivalent of Evasion, except it works for Fortitude and Will saves.
Where did you find the Mettle Feat? I've never even heard of it before.
It is also a class ability of the Pious Templar from Complete Divine.
-TRRW
Originally posted by iltharanos
I'm pretty sure that's why TRRW said Evasion AND Mettle. ;)
Mettle being the functional equivalent of Evasion, except it works for Fortitude and Will saves.
Sorry, missed that. I am unfamiliar with the Hexblade. That is only a slightly overpowering ability.
54d6 Damage potential, no other spell in the PHB, DLCS, or any other Wizards product I’ve looked, at ANY level, can do that much damage.
Yes, it requires 3 ranges touch attacks, but a smart wizard reserves touch attack spells for big baddies, and non touch attack spells for not so big baddies. As for the save, yes, making it fort for half is good (Lot more things with high fort than Ref) but still, even halving that its 30d6 Damage, STILL more than any other PHB Spell, and it's only a 6th level spell.
For my campaign, I’ve taken it out completely as I played another DL Campaign before DMing one with this spell allowed, when my GM saw me use it, after I hit 11th level, he simply sat back and watched as I did 175 Damage to his boss monster, which proceeded to die, Single Spell, single round (The thing was like 4 CR's higher than our party). Yes, it had SR, and I had Greater Spell Pen, its SR was like 25-28 or something, I broke it, and even if I hadn’t I had another one prepared (1 base, +6 Int Mod). The DM rolled a 1 on his fort save and Bam, big dramatic boss fight ended in single round, single spell.
Moral of this story, a good wizard with this spell is just wrong, and will throw off the power curve for the rest of the party with ease.
So realistically, Evasion is the ability that is overpowered as compared to Mettle.
It only starts to get stupid when you get a Human Rogue 2/Hexblade 4 with Iron Will, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes. Pretty well immune to most magic.
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And remember to all those who *still* think this spell is grossly overpowered...
You have to roll 3 touch attacks, 3 Fort saves, and 3 Spell Resistance checks. There's a good chance that the wizard will fail at least one of those SR checks. There's a good chance that the bad guy will succeded at one of the two fort saves, and there's a mediocre chance that the wizard will miss one of the touch attacks.
Remember as well that SR will negate the impact 3d6 as well.
This spell is basically the 4th level version of Disintegrate. Thing is, it requres 3 ranged touch attacks (unlike Disint's 1), 3 Fort saves (unlike Disint's 1), and 3 SR checks (unlike Disint's 1).
And unlike Disintegrate, this spell can be eaten down to very little damage by Protection from Elements.
I'd rather use Ice Storm any day. Area Effect spells > Single Target Spells.
This is why Elemental Spells are a little more powerful than their non-elemental counterparts... smart bad guys watch the party, seeing what spells they most commonly use. They then plan for that.
If you're sending your PCs against stupid badguys, well, that's your business.
tl;dr: 3 touch attacks + 3 fort saves + 3 SR checks = ~20d6 damage to one target. Big deal.
-TRRW
Originally posted by Teclis of House Magi
You fail to look at this, that spell, empowered, is absolutely obscene.
54d6 Damage potential, no other spell in the PHB, DLCS, or any other Wizards product I’ve looked, at ANY level, can do that much damage.
And (if I've understood well) in the hands of a 5th-level War Mage (with a +3 bonus hit points per die of damage) the damage potential rises to 54d6 + 162. I only get nervous laughts when I look at that number. (Hogan Bight should have used something similar in the siege of Sanction, with all those eldritch blasts flying here and there...)
If you do allow it you could start tailoring encounters so that the use of this spell would be a waste to memorize numberous times or force them into encounters where another spell of that level would be much more effective. ie somehthing with electricty resistance/immunity and/or spell resistance.
If you don't want to "nerf" it, like TRRW said, you could always say that only Dalamar knows it and they would have to find some way to learn it from him. Otherwise they could research it on their own, but of course that takes a great deal of time and then they'd have to have a good reason for trying to research that particular spell without ever having seen or heard of it.
Except that every time you level up, you gain new spells for free, due to 'research'. This means that every wizard in the world invents fireball over and over and over again. It's why I don't like having any names at the start of spells, it's just become so ingrained that it's easier to call them as they're called than as the effect. It's just meant to represent that these were the first people to think of such a fantastic new idea for a spell. Simple things, like light don't have a single creator, because all the first mages came up with it fairly easily.
Meh. The spell still strikes me as a little overpowered. I don't care. If the players can have it, so can their enemies. And most of the time, my players are playing sorcerers, and so come up with their own spells and effects on the fly. I think that an electromancer is going to want to go more for the Emperor Palpatine style of lightning than this spell. It just looks cooler.
Originally posted by Teclis of House Magi
You fail to look at this, that spell, empowered, is absolutely obscene.
54d6 Damage potential, no other spell in the PHB, DLCS, or any other Wizards product I’ve looked, at ANY level, can do that much damage.
If you want potential, look at Ice Storm, another 4th-level spell. With its 20' radius, it affects 44 squares. If there is a Medium target in each of those squares, you have the potential of doing 220d6 damage, and that's without any metamagic feats, plus no need to roll to-hit and no save allowed.