Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 enoch_van_garret Jul 28, 2004 14:11:20	Hello... I'm a newcomer to Planescape. As a DM who likes to have the ability to be familiar with all forms of variant settings and rulesets, I only recently found out about Planescape, and I have a couple of questions. 1. Strictly speaking, what's it all about? From some of the posts I see here, it looks like most of the matters dealt with are far beyond the power level of most PCs - primal forces of the multiverse which make gods look like weaklings. I'm guessing most Planescape campaigns take place in deep epic levels (40+)? I was under the impression that Union had replaced Sigil as the 'planar city' of 3.0+...where's a good place for Sigil in my game? 2. What are some reading materials where I can learn more? Is there a series of Planescape books? I've heard about a good PC game (Torment), but haven't seen any place to buy or try it.
#2 j-pop_jedi Jul 28, 2004 14:21:14	You've misread alot of this setting. Planescape is for any level pc. The god's aren't weak because they are all powerful on their homeplanes. There are a bunch of PS books, but you aren't gonna find them anywhere but ebay. Sigil is THE CITY of the multiverse. It's never gonna be replaced. It is the center of the multiverse. Now, this setting is the hardest type to run because it's every setting and then some. The pcs can go to any prime world, any plane, it's pretty much limitless.
#3 enoch_van_garret Jul 28, 2004 14:43:50	For any level PC party? I'm confused. Aren't most of the inhabitants of Sigil powerful epic-level NPCs or creatures? Furthermore, as far as reading materials, what about .pdfs?
#4 herecgunina Jul 28, 2004 15:27:39	Regarding several points: The print books are only available on Ebay, but several different websites offer them for sale as pdfs legally (running about $5 each, I believe). Sigil is NOT inhabited only by 'powerful epic-level NPCs or creatures'. That's Union (as I understand it... never read that part of my ELH all the way through). It IS inhabited by SOME powerful NPCs/creatures, such as the Lady of Pain (who is arguably more of a force of nature than an actual NPC). However, the politicking of the factions (pre- Faction War) and others means that there's plenty of room for all levels of play. There are lots of very high-powered NPCs, monsters and gods in the PS setting, but they are not the only things out there. Look at it this way: in a normal game, do you have your 1st level PCs regularly encounter great wyrm red dragons, just because they do exist in your world? No, you keep them in the background as flavor elements until such time as the PCs are able to withstand the challenge (if ever). It's the same thing with the powerful critters in Planescape, except some of them are so powerful (the lady, the lords of the nine, etc) that (in normal) PS games), the PCs never gain enough power to challenge them.
#5 enoch_van_garret Jul 28, 2004 15:36:46	interesting that you should ask that - on my percentile encounter rolls, 00 is always a randomly rolled dragon with no regard for party encounter level. A 6th level party did indeed run into a great wyrm red dragon. They ran like scared little rabbits, but it did teach them that there are larger forces in the world than ones near their challenge level.
#6 herecgunina Jul 28, 2004 15:36:49	About your guess about Planescape campaigns taking place in "deep epic levels (40+)" Planescape was originally designed for 2nd Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, which only went up to 30th level (and most games only 20). Epic gaming was far less of a phenomenon in 2e (in my experience). Looking through my books, I can't find any PCs statted as being higher than 20th level (of course, there were some pretty high-level multiclassers, which functioned differently in 2e). While if you want to be able to "beat" everybody in the setting, you'd need to be very deep in epic levels, PS is largely about philosophy and roleplaying, rather than traditional dungeoncrawling and treasure hunt adventures. It's a unique kind of game.
#7 herecgunina Jul 28, 2004 15:42:39	Well, yes, you throw them in there randomly, but in my mind, that counts as background, unless they're included in an adventure and the party is EXPECTED to win. A party wandering on Baator may encounter a pit fiend in the early levels, but they're more likely to talk their way out (or run and hope for a portal) than they are to try to fight it.
#8 j-pop_jedi Jul 28, 2004 16:47:22	One of the adventures for low level pcs in the box set involves a trip to the abyss. The catch is you stay in a bar. When we played, the dm said that it said to include 2 high level tanari. well, since we were level 1, we were freaking out. So we did run at the first sign of trouble!
#9 sildatorak Jul 28, 2004 18:24:05	Yes, the planes are dangerous places; that's why you have to rely on your wits rather than your sword arm as much as you can. Often low level adventures stay mainly in Sigil with just short journeys to more exotic locals.
#10 rikutatis Jul 28, 2004 19:37:18	Hello Enoch, > 1. Strictly speaking, what's it all about? Planescape is about the wonders of the multiverse. It is about visiting strange and outlandish sites where the usual natural laws will not work in the same way. Don't expect your high level mage to function exactly in the same way as he did in the Material World when he travels the multiverse. He'll have to adapt and be creative. Planescape is about the power of belief. It is about the politics of the factions that control Sigil and want to impose their beliefs on others. They don't do it solely for wealth and some kind of abstract power. It was said before and it's worth repeating it: In the Outer Planes, belief is real power. For example, if enough people in a frontier gate town begin to act in a wild and cruel way, the town will begin to slip toward a chaotic evil plane. In theory, one could achieve just about anything in the Outer Planes with the power of belief, even bringing a dead god back to life. Planescape is cosmopolitan. In Sigil the City of Doors, regarded as the center of the multiverse by its inhabitants, a celestial and a fiend may be found sharing a drink in a tavern. Humans are no longer the dominant race. You'll walk shoulder to shoulder with githzerai, tiefling, modrons and just about any other sentient race that walks (or flies, slides, etc) its way through the planes. Planescape is NOT a mere type of exotic dungeon crawl. Your character is but a mere mortal in a strange multiverse of immortals, gods and other even stranger entities. He can't expect to fight his way out of every problem he'll face. You better be ready to rely on cunning, fast talking and some good old fashioned roleplay. As you can see, Planescape is quite different from your usual fantasy setting. > 2. What are some reading materials where I can learn more? There were more than 20 Planescape books released during 2e (nearly 30 I believe). You can get those from Ebay or purchase the PDFs from rpgnow.com or svgames.com The Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set would be the obvious place to start.
#11 factol_rhys_dup Jul 30, 2004 12:27:49	Planescape is, simply enough, the greatest campaign setting ever designed. Some may choose to disagree with me on that point, but I choose to not care. Trust me on this one. It is. As others have already said, it is all about exploring the planes. Not exploring in the sense of a safari hunting trip where you go big game shooting for Goristro tanar'ri. I mean exploring as in experiencing the wonder of unimaginable locations. The planes are beyond measurement, even beyond comprehension, in scope. That is not to say that they are only for epic-level characters or parties, despite what 3e would have you believe: The Planescape Campaign Setting had this to say: "Well, a PLANESCAPE campaign's about beliefs: ideas, philosophies, morals and attitudes....A PLANESCAPE campaign is not about beating up Thor and taking his job, or about eliminating every baatezu there is. It's not a power trip, where characters are supposed to fight the toughest, baddest, and biggest beings around. If the DM is running the campaign that way, he's missed the point." Of course, the Manual of the Planes had this to say in 3e: "These gateways let Dungeon Masters (DMs) take their campaigns into literally a new dimension, creating new lands for the players to explore. The planes can also be the homes of powerful entities, both malevolent and benign, who will challenge the characters." Planescape, more than any other setting I've experienced, demands a fully developed character with opinions, desires, motivations, and, most critically, beliefs. It's not about what you can kill. It's about what you know, what you think, what you want, and what you believe. You don't have to be a godlike archmage to explore the planes. You can start right off jumping through one of Sigil's portals right at level 1. Sure, there are tough monsters out there, but the point of Planescape isn't to slay them all. In Planescape, you can witness the edges of reality and use your own beliefs to reshape the multiverse. It's about conflicts more than it is about wars. It is about discovery more than it is about conquest. But that's not to say there isn't plenty of action. You still have to be able to protect yourself. The point is just that you won't make any real accomplishments with the sword. Combat won't get you anywhere in Planescape unless it just serves as a means to an end. In what other campaign setting do you, rather than search for a magic item to kill baddies, search for an answer to the question: "What can change the nature of a man?" And you also asked about Torment. Torment is, by far, the greatest CRPG I have ever played. It captures Planescape well and has the best storyline to any game I've seen. As appropriate for a Planescape game, the most critical desicions in the game are made in dialogue, of which there are mountains. But the dialogue is never tedious, never boring, and you want to read every word. Look for it online. I'm sure you can find it. In the words of Ferris Beuler: "If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up."
#12 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2004 17:34:25	Planescape is that which is located beyond imagination, made into reality. Whenever people on the Prime Material Planes are philosophizing about "what's beyond" they're looking into that which IS Planescape (aka. the Multiverse). The Prime Material Planes (consisting of the Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, etc. settings) are like mere islands floating in the world that is Planescape. So in essence Planescape envelopes, and consists of, every single plane. Each possible alignment has its own plane, called the Outer Planes. The Abyss = Chaotic Evil, Baator = Lawful Evil, Mount Celestia = Lawful Good, Limbo = Chaotic Neutral - every plane literally takes on the properties of its alignment. When people die their spirit ends up on the plane that corresponds with their alignment in life, and they end up as Petitioners, or basic natives of that plane. Just like the good go to Heaven and the evil go to Hell. Spells work differently on varying planes. For instance chaotic spells work poorly to not at all on Lawful Planes, and vice versa. On the elemental planes, fire spells won't work on the Plane of Water, etc. while some spells work at their most potency on other planes. Ravenloft is a pocket domain existing within the Ethereal Plane (or was it Astral? Could never remember that one), along with some other demi-planes, such as the Plane of Shadow, the Plane of Time, etc. The Astral Plane connects the Prime Material Planes and the Outer Planes, and the Ethereal connects the Prime planes and the Inner (elemental) planes. Basically Planescape is "The Big Picture" consisting of everything and anything imagineable. Myths, legends, stories...these are all born from the Planescape realms/planes. When people look beyond reality, they're looking into the face of the multiverse that is Planescape. It's the God's on their own terms. Sigil is the "watering hole" of the planes. A huge city where all the various creatures of the planes get together and mingle. Sometimes friendly, sometimes not. In the planes you can make deals with the fiends, etc. using your wits to gain experience rather than hacki n' slashing them down...if you even could. It's all about information and how you handle and manipulate that information to better your position. It's about cunning and outsmarting beings while trying not to BE outsmarted at the same time. Planescape is as "deep" as you can get. Once you get to know it well and can stand back and look upon it as a whole it is like an awesome masterpiece of art and organization. It's scary actually! Because anything imagineable in the real world has its place in Planescape almost making it seem like it actually exists. It's so well put together that it makes too much sense! :p One can get so drawn into it's tendrils and be lost in a world of infinite pathways and adventures...you can go through a million doors and still not know where the next one is going to drop ya. ;) The best way to explain it is to read up on as much of it as you can yourself. Only then will you be able to turn around in complete awe and say, "I understand!" Gosh...that was a beautiful speech wasn't it? Time to go roam around the planes s'more! Ta ta!!
#13 enoch_van_garret Jul 31, 2004 10:10:24	Thanks, folks. I really do appreciate the effort that everyone has put forth to let me know about what's going on in Planescape. The focus on wits over stats and such seems very 2E, and while it definitely does not work for the combat-heavy, number-crunching campaign I'm running now, perhaps it can be used in the future. Thanks again to everyone, and especially Rikutatis for providing the links for the Planescape materials.
#14 zombiegleemax Jul 31, 2004 10:18:23	Originally posted by Enoch Van Garret Thanks, folks. I really do appreciate the effort that everyone has put forth to let me know about what's going on in Planescape. The focus on wits over stats and such seems very 2E, and while it definitely does not work for the combat-heavy, number-crunching campaign I'm running now, perhaps it can be used in the future. Thanks again to everyone, and especially Rikutatis for providing the links for the Planescape materials. Planescape is 2E. For now.
#15 factol_rhys_dup Jul 31, 2004 10:20:41	While the Manual of the Planes and the DMG 3.5 tell you about planar effects and the new Planar Handbook will tell you about Sigil, other cities, and travelling the planes, I think that the best idea of the "flavor" of Planescape comes from the Planewalker's Handbook. This was one of the later Planescape books, but for years my brother (who introduced me to Planescape) used only this book to run a PS campaign. For free 3e PS materials, check out planewalker.com. This site has new writeups for factions as of a few years after the Faction War as well as information for planar races, feats, skills, and a huge chapter on Sigil that tells you everything you would need to know about our fair city.
#16 zombiegleemax Jul 31, 2004 10:42:31	Agreed. I find the "Planewalker's Handbook" an invaluable resource which I refer to constantly. Also for excellent information on Sigil itself, "The Cage, A Guide to Sigil" is quite informative.