With that little disclaimer in place, let me hypothetically ask this:
What would your reaction be if WotC announced that they had reached a deal to bring E Gary Gygax on board to revamp and update the Greyhawk campaign setting and once again make GH one of the main and current setttings for D&D?
Given the evolution of the setting, and the die hard GH fans out there who have played in that setting for years uncounted, how do you think it would fare if WotC suddenly came to announce that they were bring EGG back on board to once again make GH a current D&D setting?
What do you think GH players and DM's would think about this?
What do you think EGG what have to do with the setting to make it a great current setting for D&D once again?
Do you think this would flop, or be a great boon for the gaming industry in general and for WotC in particular?
Would you be hiring assassins at the usual rates to hunt out anyone who dared to suggest such a thing as this, or would you be showering accolades upon the idea while hoisting dwarven tankards in your favorite local tavern?
Remember, as I said before, this is merely an academic or theoretical question, because I don't think this could or will ever happen. But I'm interested what people's reactions would be if this DID happen....
Personally, I would prefer to hear that WotC brought back both EGG AND Carl Sargent to work on the setting. If those two could ever agree on something, it would rock the house.
If anything, EGG will consider GH his "baby."
Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari
What would your reaction be if WotC announced that they had reached a deal to bring E Gary Gygax on board to revamp and update the Greyhawk campaign setting and once again make GH one of the main and current setttings for D&D?
(While I know you were joking, even making *JOKES* about real-world violence on these forums is a no-no. Also, "Flaming" is a violation of the [u]WotC Online Code of Conduct[/u]. Message Edited by WizO Sith)
Greyhawk is dead, dude, let it rot in peace.
Originally posted by Iksander
(While I know you were joking, even making *JOKES* about real-world violence on these forums is a no-no. Also, "Flaming" is a violation of the [u]WotC Online Code of Conduct[/u]. Message Edited by WizO Sith)
Greyhawk is dead, dude, let it rot in peace.
I'm hoping you were speaking with tongue firmly pressed in cheek...
(Flaming is a violation of the [u]WotC Online Code of Conduct[/u] Message edited by WizO Sith)
Honestly, I'm not sure exactly what he could/would contribute outside of Castle Greyhawk and the city of the same name. His approach always seemed to be setting lite, adventure/dungeon heavy. I guess I could see a product line from him being as follows:
World of Greyhawk box (probably mostly resembles the original box, without any changes brought on by the GH Wars and such).
City of Greyhawk (which in no way, shape, or form resembles the city currently baring that name).
Castle Greyhawk (the same set of modules being done by C&C, except with the proper names restored).
I'd be happy with that, personally, but given GH has had so many different people working on it and so many different directions taken, I doubt anyone else would be.
There are a number of reasons I believe this, not least of all that he would have to follow the canonical material written by the dozen + authors that came after him and I believe he is quite bitter about how the path of him and Greyhawk were put into 2.
Originally posted by Valharic
I think the best option for GH is to have WotC let a third party take it over, and hire EGG into that group. Since WotC is now going to use Eberron as it's defacto setting for supplemental books, GH is now completely in the background of campaign settings. Dragonlance and Ravenloft now exist in this scenario. I know DL is having succes with this endevor.
Got any reliable source to back that up?
Stuart
Originally posted by Iksander
Got any reliable source to back that up?
If you mean the Eberron being defacto. My friend read it on the D&D web site about a month or so ago. I will ask him when I get home tonight.
Originally posted by Iksander
(While I know you were joking, even making *JOKES* about real-world violence on these forums is a no-no. Also, "Flaming" is a violation of the [u]WotC Online Code of Conduct[/u]. Message Edited by WizO Sith)
Greyhawk is dead, dude, let it rot in peace.
How constructive...
Originally posted by Mortepierre
How constructive...
He's right though...
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
He's right though...
If you really think GH is dead and should be left to rot, then don't let me stop you on your way out. I believe this board is for hawkers who still think GH is alive and kicking because - guess what - a setting continues to exist as long as it has even one fan
Originally posted by abysslin
There are a number of reasons I believe this, not least of all that he would have to follow the canonical material written by the dozen + authors that came after him and I believe he is quite bitter about how the path of him and Greyhawk were put into 2.
Then let him do his own version of Greyhawk and let the customers decide.
After all, Dave Arneson got his Blackmoor back and doing his own version, after having cleared the legal hurdle with WotC.
Let the market decide.
Originally posted by Mortepierre
If you really think GH is dead and should be left to rot, then don't let me stop you on your way out. I believe this board is for hawkers who still think GH is alive and kicking because - guess what - a setting continues to exist as long as it has even one fan
You don't seem to get it.
I've been through the cycle. Maybe you haven't yet reached the apathy stage yet that most Greyhawk fans eventually come to once they've argued this issue over, and over, and over again.
As far as Greyhawk getting setting books published, it's a dead horse issue. Quit kicking it already. GET OVER IT. It's not going to happen. Grow up and accept it.
Coming to this board has NOTHING to do with wanting the setting to be published. It's a board in the dead worlds section for crying out loud. Just because people don't think like you, you have to make out like everybody else here supports your point of view to make me feel like the outcast.
Well, pal, here's a newsflash, most GH fans really don't give a rats ass. YOU'RE the odd one out. Once you've belted your head against the brick wall a few times, maybe it'll knock some sense into you and you'll figure this out. Until then, accept that some people have a different opinion to yours and that opinion is just as valid, or else feel free to leave this one and go make your own where you can make up all the fairy tale dreams you want and kick out all those who don't agree with you.
I run a Greyhawk campaign. There is PLENTY of material on Greyhawk. If I want new stuff, I can either make it up myself, with help from the fan community, or I can hope that it comes out in Dungeon. But I do not have to want a new friggin setting book to be published to be a ******* fan of the setting.
Until that stops, GH lives.
2: EGG doing an new GH?
Look - he's a great guy but do you honestly think he's going to care about anything from FtA onwards? EGG doesn't care for anything post EGG. What you'll get is another set of dungeon heavy/background light modules - not the kind of sourcebook that a lot of people on this list seem to be wanting.
EGG and Rob did phenominal work sketching out the groundwork for GH and creating a lot of crunchy dungeon fun (oh and inventing D&D along with Dave Arneson
). But GH is more than sketch drawings and 10 by 10 rooms with whacky traps now. It's a complex, detailed world. EGG and Rob have expressed distaste both for a lot of that complexity and detail and seem reluctant to compromise on their vision of their original GH (which fun though it might have been is not the GH we have today). 3: Nostalgia 'Hawk seems to be the flavour of the month. IMO it'll will kill GH deader than anything. We do not need another reshash/regurgitation of another classic dungeon or Return to this that or the other.
How about going somewhere new for once?
What the next incarnation of Greyhawk needs is a widening of the setting - the Flanaess discovering the rest of Oerik and vice versa. The next GH hardcover (if it ever existed) would need to be an Oerik wide book - not just the Flanaess and the bloody Free City of Greyhawk updated to 600 CY or whenever. It would in effect be a new setting.
IMHO, EGG would not be able to provide that.
P.
But if Greyhawk has a future, it's won't come from him. I won't speak about his bitterness( wich i can understand) or anything in this way, but people like Sargent, IMO, were a good example of what fresh blood injected can do.
ANd there are plenty of Sargent (hum, no, not plenty, but there are). The problem is not here.
To write or to say Greyhawk is dead is the best way to make it true, and it's today far from true. Greyhawk is in "coma", but far from -10 hp, he 's stabilized, and very close to 0.
But nobody here has the power to bring it back to full hp, that's the problem. And that what is making thoses thread useless IMHO. Produce modules, extensions, rules, for greyhawk. Convert players, help them with your ressources book, show them this world has lot of ressources. And it MAY, commercialy speaking, change things and maybe help printing a new book. But free suppositions and wishes are leading nowhere.
Now, go on, and come back to present, not to hypothetic futures where everybody can write anything, unless someone has a crystal ball
On the other hand there are those of us who like Sargent's work and sourcebooks detailing Nyrond, the Great Kingdom, Onnwal
and so forth.This is what I like about Erik's work - he's able to oversee a classic dungeon romp like Maure Castle, bringing big names like Kuntz and Gygax to the project, whilst at the same time he can work to create interesting source material like the Knights of the Shielding class and the LGG.
IMHO GH is in good hands with him, he's the protector of balance in his little US based Obsidian fortress. ;)
Stuart
Just because people don't think like you, you have to make out like everybody else here supports your point of view to make me feel like the outcast. - Delglath
And you don't do that to other people?
I don't want an answer because I already know the response, hypocrit.
2: EGG doing an new GH?
Look - he's a great guy but do you honestly think he's going to care about anything from FtA onwards? EGG doesn't care for anything post EGG. What you'll get is another set of dungeon heavy/background light modules - not the kind of sourcebook that a lot of people on this list seem to be wanting.
-Woesinger
Well, the 80 folio - WoG Box had its share of details.
EGG ain't coming back and ain't getting the WoG licence, so in that sense, the original Greyhawk is no more. (From what I have been reading lately, it sounds like the original Greyhawk was also not a true representation of EGG's active campaign world anyway).
What we have now is the result of Greyhawk's evolution through TSR and now WoTC. Yes, there are as many Sargents out there as there are DMs who use the world and over time, their ideas will change and evolve the setting, both officially and unofficially.
However, in playing along with the thread, I would say that I would be happy to have a content-rich sourcebook from any of the original DM's/players of the Greyhawk campaign. Say what you will about EGG, but the man knows how to write captivating fantasy.
Otherwise, would any of us be here. . . . .
The World of Greyhawk releases that were planned -- materials on the City of Greyhawk, Stoink, the Wild Coast, the Plane of Shadow -- plus 32-page modules along the lines of S4 would make an exciting product line (certainly more exciting than the current one).
I do think Wizards should license out the WoG (and the Forgotten Realms also), since the WotC financial module is only conducive to the most general, mass-appeal of products, and the setting material it publishes is compromised to the values of the current D&D.
And of course Greyhawk isn't dead: it's a fictional world, an imaginative entity that exists outside of time, it doesn't need a product line or even players to exist.
I didn't start this thread in some attempt to rally WotC to bring Egg back on board or to get new GH material published, so people who are arguing about how GH is dead, WotC isn't interested in publishing new GH material, and that GH fans should just forget about getting new stuff for GH from WotC should really leave off harping on that, because quite frankly that was not my intent for this thread at all.
As I stated very clearly (for any who would bother to read the original post), I was merely asking a hypothetical question. My intent was in no way to actually suggest that EGG should be hired by WotC to bring GH back as a setting for D&D.
Again, as I clearly stated, I was asking a hypothetical question about what people would think if Gygax got back into doing GH stuff. If people want to talk about other writers for GH back in the day (like Carl Sargent, etc.), and what they would do with the setting now, thats fine.
But trying to start a flame war about how GH is dead and people should stop rallying for WotC to produce new GH material, when that was not the intent or purpose of the thread in the first place, is kind of silly, don't you think?
So if we could, lets go back to the original topic and stop hijacking please.
Originally posted by Iksander
As far as Greyhawk getting setting books published, it's a dead horse issue. Quit kicking it already. GET OVER IT. It's not going to happen. Grow up and accept it.
Never say never. Lots of settings have been pronounced dead and have come back.
Coming to this board has NOTHING to do with wanting the setting to be published. It's a board in the dead worlds section for crying out loud. Just because people don't think like you, you have to make out like everybody else here supports your point of view to make me feel like the outcast.
Strictly speaking, it's not a dead worlds board. Dragonlance and Ravenloft have published support.
Will Wizards bring out a Greyhawk book in 2005? Probably not, but I've no doubt that Greyhawk will return as a book line one day.
As far as Greyhawk getting setting books published, it's a dead horse issue. Quit kicking it already. GET OVER IT. It's not going to happen. Grow up and accept it.
I just wanted to say that it would be great to bring back GH and get EGG back involved in things. I don't think it will ever die... and in fact might be kind of likely, as long as we keep threads like this going on and on, we have a chance to convince the Wiz to publish Greyhawk stuff, so I think its coming back. Maybe if we just kick the dead horse one more time and grow up some it might happen. Just like the candy cane forest, yummy, I'll never get over that one.
Well, pal, here's a newsflash, most GH fans really don't give a rats ass. YOU'RE the odd one out.
Most greyhawkers want more and more so the setting can go on, my friend is a greyhawker and we play in Stoink, maybe we could get a write up. on this. We already agree that this is behavior is odd, and so there is no need to discuss this.
I run a Greyhawk campaign. There is PLENTY of material on Greyhawk. If I want new stuff, I can either make it up myself, with help from the fan community, or I can hope that it comes out in Dungeon. But I do not have to want a new friggin setting book to be published to be a ******* fan of the setting.
I'ts nice to have official things from wizards so that everyone is on the same page.
DMs can't just do what they want to a setting whenever they want to. Stuff just made up by individuals even when it is very narrow and negative, just doesn't count
Coming to this board has NOTHING to do with wanting the setting to be published. It's a board in the dead worlds section for crying out loud. Just because people don't think like you, you have to make out like everybody else here supports your point of view to make me feel like the outcast.
I am sorry you feel this way and it makes me most most sad :sad: :sad: :sad:
:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:
These kinds of feeling of loss and yes even outcastness are normal. We all hope you get well soon. Someday you will wake up on a brand new vista and really understand greyhawkers. and if the world is dead why is this board here and how can you prove to me you are there, thanks
Originally posted by Iksander
You don't seem to get it.
I've been through the cycle. Maybe you haven't yet reached the apathy stage yet that most Greyhawk fans eventually come to once they've argued this issue over, and over, and over again.
As far as Greyhawk getting setting books published, it's a dead horse issue. Quit kicking it already. GET OVER IT. It's not going to happen. Grow up and accept it.
Wow, did I touch a nerve?
Originally posted by Iksander
Coming to this board has NOTHING to do with wanting the setting to be published. It's a board in the dead worlds section for crying out loud. Just because people don't think like you, you have to make out like everybody else here supports your point of view to make me feel like the outcast.
Well, damn! And here I thought that both DL and RL were back, alive and well. I must have dreamed those new sourcebooks in the RPG stores. Yup, that must be it.
I must have imagined those Dragon/Dungeon Mag. articles updating DS to 3.5E too.
Clearly, NO ONE is doing ANYTHING to revive old "dead" settings
Originally posted by Iksander
Well, pal, here's a newsflash, most GH fans really don't give a rats ass. YOU'RE the odd one out. Once you've belted your head against the brick wall a few times, maybe it'll knock some sense into you and you'll figure this out. Until then, accept that some people have a different opinion to yours and that opinion is just as valid, or else feel free to leave this one and go make your own where you can make up all the fairy tale dreams you want and kick out all those who don't agree with you.
I run a Greyhawk campaign. There is PLENTY of material on Greyhawk. If I want new stuff, I can either make it up myself, with help from the fan community, or I can hope that it comes out in Dungeon. But I do not have to want a new friggin setting book to be published to be a ******* fan of the setting.
Really?
Then why do we have new people stopping by all the time asking what is GH and how they can adapt their campaign to it?
Why do people like Erik Mona "waste" time bringing us new GH material (including modules)?
Why do people like Makoma spearhead attempts to produce new quality GH material for all hawkers?
Sure, they must be raving mad since GH is dead and buried. Yep, that must be it
I think it's safe to say that we would all like to see new Greyhawk materials.
I would advise writing to WotC, or sending an e-mail to their customer service dept. Let your voices be heard. Support Greyhawk adventures in Dungeon, ask for Greyhawk articles in Dragon.
If other settings can be in print again, so too can Greyhawk.
Bickering about whether WotC should create new content was not the original topic at all, but through some hijacking thats what the discussions (i.e. flames) so far have been.
The original point, as I stated twice before, was to get people to think about what GH would look like if some of the original writers for the setting could get their hands back on it, not whether this should happen or whether WotC should start publishing new GH material.
And just in case it hasn't been mentioned, Gygax is working on Greyhawk material right now, he's just been forced to use what few names remain in his possession.
As for the original intent of this thread, it would be interesting to see how Gygax would handle the "new" Greyhawk and whether he'd react favorably to the changes that took place after From the Ashes (but it's doubtful). If he did indeed do anything to the setting, I would say that he'd avoid the main Flanaess and develop areas of Oerth not yet been addressed.
Well I'd like to think they'd take a mature view of things and respect the 20 years of work that was put into the setting post them.
What I said about setting light stuff nottwithstanding - EGG's take on Stoink would be cool to see.
If they want to expand the margins of known Oerik - great, as long as it's not Zindia, Nippon and Orkreich.
But a GH without the GH Wars and FtA is not GH. It might be the original "Classic Coke" flavour GH home campaign - but just as everyone likes to say for LG - that's just a home campaign. It just happened to be the first one, but otherwise it's little different to other home campaigns in terms of respecting of Canon.
P.
Originally posted by Woesinger
...It just happened to be the first one, but otherwise it's little different to other home campaigns in terms of respecting of Canon.
P.
That's a mote point, given that noone can agree on what "Canon" actually is and that the term really came to life much later than when EGG and other original members stopped working for TSR. I despise the term anyway. It's loaded and can only start problems anymore.
Using continuity as stated in the Dungeon #112 thread would be a better basis, IMHO.
What is interesting is that, in a way, this thread topic already has an answer in the discussions of RJK's Robilar story. Whether its EGG or RJK, how people react to Robilar is a real world, tell tale example of the question at hand.
Originally posted by loremaster marvin
... And just in case it hasn't been mentioned, Gygax is working on Greyhawk material right now, he's just been forced to use what few names remain in his possession.
....
Yes, EGG and RK are producing "Castle Zagyg" for TLG. Reading between the lines, "Castle Zagyg" is clearly based on the material from their original "Castle Greyhawk" setting. The product is meant for TLG's upcoming "Castles and Crusades" system, but it should be relatively easy to convert to 3.x DnD.
So in fact we will be getting one more glimpse into "Gygaxian Greyhawk"...
Disclaimer: I don't think the speculative issue I'm about to ask about would ever possibly happen. In fact I think Hell would freeze over before it did. Disclaimer
With that little disclaimer in place, let me hypothetically ask this:
What would your reaction be if WotC announced that they had reached a deal to bring E Gary Gygax on board to revamp and update the Greyhawk campaign setting and once again make GH one of the main and current setttings for D&D?
I would be happy and curious to see what EGG would produce. Our campaigns have always ran in cycles so we'd just start a new cycle. I might be aprehensive to lose a few things about GH I really like but I'm sure there'd be quite a bit I wouldn't miss...SB, Vecna, Iuz. I don't know if he'd dump that stuff but I get tired of the same bad guys over and over.
Given the evolution of the setting, and the die hard GH fans out there who have played in that setting for years uncounted, how do you think it would fare if WotC suddenly came to announce that they were bring EGG back on board to once again make GH a current D&D setting?
What do you think GH players and DM's would think about this?
I think most die hard Hawkers would buy it regardless of wether or not they'd use it whole or in part. It would at the very least be mined for material. Beyond that there will always be the curious gamer/DM that will buy a legendary setting.
What do you think EGG what have to do with the setting to make it a great current setting for D&D once again?
I think he would have to bite the bullet and use everything that has since been published without his name on it. It would be unlikely that EGG would do that but that's not why we're dicussing this, right? I'm sure EGG could pick up where he left off with the original box set and give us some updates, 10 or 20 years worth maybe circa CY 600. Ignoring published stuff (From the Ashes, GH Wars, etc.) would make people scramble to adjust their campaigns or start over again. As I said, IOC we do that all the time.
Do you think this would flop, or be a great boon for the gaming industry in general and for WotC in particular?
I think the Nostalgia factor coupled with the curious nature of newbies would make it a good seller, just not a block buster. (That would be a few years later when they re-release 50 odd FR books.) Given a good Ad campaign and some novel support leading up to the release would help a great deal. If they bribe people with RPGA experience points like they've started doing then I'm sure it would go over very well.
Would you be hiring assassins at the usual rates to hunt out anyone who dared to suggest such a thing as this, or would you be showering accolades upon the idea while hoisting dwarven tankards in your favorite local tavern?
Like I said, sounds good to me. I prefer my mead in a bulls horn.
Remember, as I said before, this is merely an academic or theoretical question, because I don't think this could or will ever happen. But I'm interested what people's reactions would be if this DID happen....
EUREKA!
Originally posted by Belegbeth
The product is meant for TLG's upcoming "Castles and Crusades" system, but it should be relatively easy to convert to 3.x DnD.
So in fact we will be getting one more glimpse into "Gygaxian Greyhawk"...
I'm in the C&C rules playtest; anything written for Castles & Crusades will be easy to convert to 3.x or AD&D. Unfortunately, we haven't seen any of the Castle Zagyg material yet.
Regards,
V
Originally posted by VFults
I'm in the C&C rules playtest; anything written for Castles & Crusades will be easy to convert to 3.x or AD&D. Unfortunately, we haven't seen any of the Castle Zagyg material yet.
Regards,
V
From this interview http://www.gamebanshee.com/interviews/garygygax2.php
GB: Are there any other projects you're currently working on, aside from Lejendary Adventure?
Gary: Lejendary Adventure is the main project and Troll Lord Games will be coming out with all kinds of stuff later this year or next. They’re getting ready to release a Lejendary Adventure Essentials boxed primer set. They’re introducing it so that we will get the game out to more people.
I am also working on a little number called Castle Zagyg which is the campaign-based material for my original “Greyhawk Campaign” begun back in 1972. It will nominally be for the Castles & Crusades FRPG system from Troll Lord Games. Rob Kuntz, who became co-DM of that campaign back in 1974 will assist me and we’ll start later this year on the castle and dungeon levels portion of the project. We would have started already, but my health isn’t good enough yet. Anyway, we are going to take the best of those 40 or 50 dungeon levels we devised and do about twenty-five or so for the printed version of the setting. That is the meat of the Castle Zagyg project.
Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari
The original point, as I stated twice before, was to get people to think about what GH would look like if some of the original writers for the setting could get their hands back on it, not whether this should happen or whether WotC should start publishing new GH material.
He won't do because he has come to dislike the 3.0/3.5 ruleset. Also he is not a fan of the d20 and OGL license system to allow anyone create additional material for D&D besides WOTC.(Interview Review Link).
If you somehow managed to convince him, you do remember that TSR (under him) aggressively moved to quash any websites with D&D content. So IMO he would probably totally ignore anyone else’s attempts at GH canon if he were given full rights to continue his vision of GH.
And in case people forget you do remember that WOTC brought him back for the release of D&D 3e (1999-2000), about the time they announced that Greyhawk would be the default campaign world. I was there at GENCON 1999 & 2000, besides warming a seat on stage and saying how good D&D 3e was going to be, what else did he do at WOTC during his time with them? People speculated that he would do the GH 3.0 version but nothing was ever announced and he soon left. My guess he was offered the chance but he did not want to be a minor player under some of his former employees.
Originally posted by Troll-Magus
you do remember that TSR (under him) aggressively moved to quash any websites with D&D content.
While quick to defend what he considered his IP, Gygax was already ousted from TSR during the anti-Internet days. Lorainne Williams was at the helm during that time.
Regards,
V
Looking at much of the previous material, his best work seems to grow out off his own campaign. In the process of he and Rob running the campaign, each of them must have said to themselves at one time or another:
"This adventure is going great! I've got to turn it into a module. The players(and myself) are having too much fun for me to even consider not doing it. Other people will want to run/go through this adventure too."
We've all had similar experiences. The machinations of pc's and npc's add a lot to the campaign as well and become the stars of the campaign. These are the perfect characters to include in adventures and source material, though not in a HUGE way. You don't need to run into a personality EVERY single adventure, but its nice to find out some odd tidbbit of information about them. I'd love to see such projects from them using Greyhawk and the adventure/sourcebook platform that I think made City of the Spider Queen so interesting and useful. Whether you liked that product or not, the platform could work really well for many different things. There are a few other adventure/sourcebooks published under the OGL by various companies that are well put together also. In addition to the adventure these types of products contain, they are loaded with all kinds of ideas as well that can be expanded upon as suits each individual dm.
Its always good not to super-detail such things though. Always leave a few things unsaid about geographical areas, people, and organizations, so that dm's can more comfortably add in some of their own material to make it fit into their own particular campaigns, as there is a strong tendency to not go against specifics of material in print.
If such an arrangement could be made so that EGG(or Rob) would have a relativvely free hand with developing material along these lines I think many people would be happy to see the resulting products available for purchase. EGG obviously knows what he is doing. Rob just recently reinforced my opinion that he still knows what he is doing as well(ie. Maure Castle). It will just take somebody at WOTC to own up to it and let them have the freedom to develop something mostly on their own without too many restrictions. Return to Maure Castle aptly shows that there is a certain level of workability possible between the game's originators and the current IP owners(once agian, my thanks to Erik, Rob, and Gary for putting it all together).
I think most people would respond very favorably to any projects done by EGG or Rob(see various Maure Castle threads for support of this) in particular.
The main thing that I feel has hurt GH is the reaction of some people to the opinions of the originators regarding current material. If they express the opinion that they don't like something, it has often been seen as an attack on WOTC/TSR or even on the author of the material that is being commented on. Its as if the originators aren't allowed to even express an opinion on something unless its positive is every way.
The Greyhawk community in many ways has been its own worst enemy by propogating negativity and division regarding the very thing it wants to promote. People should feel free to express their opinions on things and should also expect not to be utterly crucified for doing so. Ego, finger pointing, and know-it-all bravado have no place in a constructive environment. I call it "kicking your own ass". Nothing good can come of it.
I for one would like to see some more positive interaction between the origators and the current folks at WOTC/Paizo.
Dungeon #114- the largest selling issue in the last 5 years(I'm pretty sure that is what someody at Dungeon said???). From a business standpoint, that kind of says it all. Put out some more quality material and you might actually see the trend continue and possibly even grow. What a concept! For the people who can actually make it happen, this might very well be the most compelling argument I can make.
---Brian
This established back-history of GH is quite important to an official campaign that is primarily deals with ancient secrets, locations and artifacts that are being sought by the dangerously curious sages, the most powerful mortals, undead spellcasters, hero-gods and even greater gods. GH is rich in this power-search/struggle flavor. While it lacks in published lore compared to say Forgotten Realms there is sufficient back story if one takes the time to collect the material (out of print) from Ebay and do extensive web searches to find material online.
Having current developments in GH is an important tool when attempting to imagine a fantasy world, but I suspect that most campaigns are more focused on Oerths past, rather than looking at contemporary events. In Greyhawk, I beleive new developments mostly happen because of old scores to settle, old opponents that resurface, and old plot devices that re-emerge to cause problems. Greyhawk is very much about history repeating itself in new a dangerous ways while the world itself changes relatively little.
The Greyhawk Wars were an unpopular, yet brave, way to introduce new changes into the Setting, but I think it's taken about 10 years for the old school players of the campaign to finally accept it in varying amounts. Most Greyhawk players want official change to be slow so that they have a direct hand in it themselves as the DM -- rather than a publishing house making those changes for us. In this way, Greyhawk would be well served by products that add to the back-history material to build on old legends and old locations. Greyhawk is very much about "the old & mysterious" as well as a hot political climate thats primarily about humans, with demi-humans playing a very diminished role in the Flanaess at large (and they probably like it that way). It's a stubborn world that is likely kept that way by powerful god-beings (for thier own reasons) such that Oerth seems almost stagnant and its people relatively ignorant and suppressed in development. There won't likely ever be an "Age of Enlightenment" in this world as long as the 'powers that be' have their way.
Honestly, if people are looking forward to radical changes in Greyhawk, or having a wealth of new published source material (although more would be nice, its a large world), I think they are missing the entire point of playing in Greyhawk!
There are other settings you can play (or invent) in D&D if you want to play in a world where current events are the only important thing for adventurers.
I beleive your conclusions about Gygax and a theoretical return to writing Greyhawk is accurate. He and Rob Kuntz DID recently publish Maure Castle, as a large module write-up in DUNGEON magazine. Check the last 3 or 4 issues of DUNGEON.
I suspect they did the rough design, traps, generic monsters and human opponents, and then had someone more knowledgable with the 3.5 edition fill in all the details. I have no problem with that. I enjoy the dungeon-crawls that those authors are infamous for. I can use source material from other authors if I desire other writing styles to add to my own GH campainging
ideas.
Originally posted by Woesinger
3: Nostalgia 'Hawk seems to be the flavour of the month. IMO it'll will kill GH deader than anything. We do not need another reshash/regurgitation of another classic dungeon or Return to this that or the other.
How about going somewhere new for once?
What the next incarnation of Greyhawk needs is a widening of the setting - the Flanaess discovering the rest of Oerik and vice versa. The next GH hardcover (if it ever existed) would need to be an Oerik wide book - not just the Flanaess and the bloody Free City of Greyhawk updated to 600 CY or whenever. It would in effect be a new setting.
IMHO, EGG would not be able to provide that.
P. [/b]
I want him to prove to me he can still do Greyhawk. But let's start with baby steps. How about he submit articles for Dungeon's Greyhawk Journal?
Originally posted by Ranger REG
[b]With all due respect, he's been out of GH for a long time (currently focusing on Legendary Adventures if not another Gary Gygax Present sourcebooks for Troll Lord Games).You are kidding, right? Gary hasn't been out of Greyhawk- it is his campaign and as as has been previously said, he is working on projects that originate in Greyhawk, but due to IP issues will be billed as something a little different. But we will all know what it is and where it is supposed to be placed in GH, and will be anxious to translate it into whatever edition of D&D we each are playing. Some of us will simply give C&C a try instead.
It would be ludicrous to say he has been out of the loop for some time. These guys are also very aware of what went on with the creation of 3rd edition and the differences in the game mechanics. They are not ostriches with their heads in the sand.
My group started gaming before the orginal GreyHawk folder came out. When it was released we adapted to it quickly. This was back in ~1980 or so. Our campagin ran until 1993. Since we basically started in a vaccum with the orginal folder set, we were always happy for any scrap of new material boxed, GW wars etc. In many ways we ended up making our own way due to the lack of materials at the time but with those outstanding maps, I stayed inspired most of the time.
After 1993 life had it's way of squeezing out campagin time and I hadn't looked at AD&D or DD since. I was about toasted anyway after being the DM for 85-90 percent of the adventures we ran for 13 years.
However, two weeks ago,I saw the paperback "Tomb of Horrors" in a used book store. On a lark, I picked up the book for $2 and to my surprise the lure of nostalgia was quiet powerful. I ended up reading ToH in a few days, only to discover I had the fever to DM and play again! :D
I've been online since 1997 but this week is the very first time I've looked at AD&D materials. Much has changed but I'm most impressed. WotC looks to have done a quailty job. While I probably won't update to the d20 system since I have a bookcase full of AD&D and AD&D 2nd ed materials, I would happily pick up any new GH materails WotC offers...as I think most of my groups old players would.
The new adventures will of course take place in our GH setting which we called "The Celene Campagin" to note it's differences from the "offical" version will be back later this month. The last calander date in our GH game was 685 back in 1993. So not all GH settings are in stasis. :D
We'll probably round off to 700, to allow enough time to pass to tweak things a little to surprise some of the old players.
I would be happy to see what EGG or others came up with for GH going forward because once again I'm looking for GH related ideas.
submit articles for Dungeon's Greyhawk Journal?"
This is great stuff! More fantastical than any RPG world, and a wake-up call for my tired person as I just returned from GENCON.
UNBELIEVABLE.
As the annointer of the current published Greyhawk ressurgence said at a lunch at an Indy restuarant he invited me to to speak with him at: "I'm gonna do Greyhawk." That's Erik Mona, Folks.
More Maure Castle is on the way after said discussion; that is unless Erik, James Jacobs, and Lisa Stevens, who I had the brief opportunity to chat with at the CON, decide to make me play tiddly-winks first to determine my ability to type...
LOL!
Great Time at the CON.
Rob Kuntz
Rob Kuntz
Yes, the humor of those comments was pretty evident. After I recovered from my initial "stunned" reaction, I had to laugh as well.
:D I was hoping to get out to GenCon, but my plans did not come through as I had hoped. A couple of friends of mine flew out for Crocodile Games. One is notorious for having seen everything at any event he's gone too but when pressed for details is utterly bamfoozled. Mental overload or something like that I guess. The other is mainly a miniatures guy. Between the two I might be able to claw a vague idea out of them about how the show was. At least they mean well.
You haven't cc'd this thread to Gary yet, have you? Might be worth a chuckle at the least.
You guys could submit pages and pages of posts regarding the slew of nay-sayers out there, to no avail. Oh, wait a minute. You already have. I guess you can beat a dead horse after all.
On the up-side, the news on GH just keeps getting better and better!
---Brian
Originally posted by Cebrion
Rob:
Yes, the humor of those comments was pretty evident. After I recovered from my initial "stunned" reaction, I had to laugh as well.
I was hoping to get out to GenCon, but my plans did not come through as I had hoped. A couple of friends of mine flew out for Crocodile Games. One is notorious for having seen everything at any event he's gone too but when pressed for details is utterly bamfoozled. Mental overload or something like that I guess. The other is mainly a miniatures guy. Between the two I might be able to claw a vague idea out of them about how the show was. At least they mean well.
You haven't cc'd this thread to Gary yet, have you? Might be worth a chuckle at the least.
You guys could submit pages and pages of posts regarding the slew of nay-sayers out there, to no avail. Oh, wait a minute. You already have. I guess you can beat a dead horse after all.
On the up-side, the news on GH just keeps getting better and better!
---Brian
Ah yes, Cebrion. Crocodile Games was at the CON. Tadashi Ehara got lots of pictures, including one of their booth. Here's the link to DW's site w/ the picts:
http://www.diffworlds.com/gencon_2004.htm
There's more news which is great for Greyhawk through Paizo's end but I will be mum as that as requested and let Erik speak of it when needed.
Things are getting better!
Rob
Though it has taken 2 long, hard years of therapy, the Crocs have finally been able to take those BIG steps: to coordinate bright(er) colors into their black ensembles, and be able to show their teeth when smiling without the need for the fang caps.
I...am...so..........proud... of them!!!
[blubbering, sobbing crying ensues]
Anyways, the news is great.
I look forward to Erik coming back down from the mountain holding those hardcopies for all of us undeserving heathens to receive.
---Brian
Actually the last posts were probably deletd due to the new boards installment. I doubt that the thread was intentionally re-opened. Well maybe it can be kept open now.
The morale of the story is, if you're not kissing ROb's butt, don't bother posting!
Thanks for clarifying that wizos!
I'm glad to see this thread is once again open. Keep the comments on a more positive note and quit slinging mud. You know who you are, so knock it off. It is very irritating to see most of the quality constructive threads I have participated in being locked after not too long, due to the efforts of others to not be so nice. I'd hate to see anybody get banned, or driven off from contributing to the forums here in a postive manner. But as the church of St. Cuthbert preaches:
*Square corners can be pounded smooth.
*Thick heads are not made of glass.
*Salvation is better than smart answers.
*Some good folk can only understand one thing.
*Enlightenment can penetrate even the helm of iron.
*Evil which cannot be removed must be eliminated.
*Foolishness can be beaten.
*Lawful correction lies in a stout billet.
*Capricious behavior brings knots to the heads of those lacking wisdom.
*Preach quietly, but have a large cudgel handy.
In any event, I look forward to all of the many products which will be out for the rest of the year, many of which were previewed/presented/sold at GenCon. I also look foreward to the participation of some of D&D's original crew in creating some new campaign books/supplements/adventures for Greyhawk.
I figure that I'll ask any project contributors for 200% effort, and be happy with about 100%. That doesn't sound too greedy now, does it?
Thank you for your indulgence.
---Brian
Keep the comments on a more positive note and quit slinging mud. You know who you are, so knock it off. It is very irritating to see most of the quality constructive threads I have participated in being locked after not too long, due to the efforts of others to not be so nice.
YES SIR!
/me salutes
Oh wait, you're not a Wizo...
Bite me.
Would it make you feel better if I talked Grodog into including a statement that "Chatdemon hates EGG & Rob" in the GH FAQ? That way you wouldn't have to state it again in every new thread about them ;)
This thread will be locked. Please don't restart it.
*Click*