However, since we've got it part as canon and continuity now that wild magic has been here since the beginning, now we have to explain why we haven't seen it before. Thus, the best way to make up for it is to explain away magical beasts, creatures,
1) Wild Magic Flood - In the Age of Dreams magic was potent and created fabled and shining cities, the ruins of which are buried beneath the earth today. When the 2nd dragonwar struck, powerful sorcerers known as scions drew upon al their magical power and struck down the dragons from the skies, trapping them in the Dragon Stones. This powerful ritual slipped from their control wreaking massive devestation across the land and burning away the wild magic. The gods of magic intervened and saved the magic, but all that was left were wells of power (Theibardin, Tower of High Sorcery Sites, Huldrefolk halls, faerie glens, megalithic sites, old ruins). Using the lunar bodies, the gods of magic drew that magic out of these wells for their followers, the Wizards.
When the Chaos war occured and the graygem destroyed, the wild magic once again flooded the earth.
Pros: Simple, and explains why there were wild magic creatures before wild magic, and why sorcerers weren't running around. Savants in Theibardin generally had to stay put to access their power.
Cons: Dragons would have to use wizardry during the War of the Lance, or lair in places of wild magic and absorb that power.
2) Portal to Magic - The lunar bodies have always acted as gateways to the power of magic, through the teachings of the Mystery Cult of High Sorcery. Other gateways of magic also existed, such as artifacts from the Age of Dreams or rituals of transformation (Scions, Galan Dracos). Likewise as creatures of magic did not need to use gateways, but innately could tap into the power of magic.
When the 5th Age came, the barrier between humans and magic was ripped away. They no longer needed a key.
Pros: Also a simple explanation, and does not require an extensive backstory. Creatures of wild magic are not caged in. All those magic-users who were not mages in previous books aren't canon problems anymore.
Cons: Gives the go ahead to remove magic from wizards, since it allows for sources of magic other than moon magic in prior ages. I don't mind if the wizards lose the benefits of their prestige class if they go renegade, but they should at least be allowed to keep their spellcasting ability. Once those arcane secrets are taught, they shouldn't just be taken away. I don't mind the religious overtones to the WoHS, but I don't want them to be full-fledged clerics who happen to cast arcane spells.
3) Moons as Filters: Magic was kept locked away from the gods of magic for their own good. Wild magic was tainted with chaos, so the gods of magic removed the power of chaos from the magic through rituals and arcane magic. When the moons left, the barrier and filters weren't around anymore, so people started using "wild magic".
Pros: Supports the supposition of the wizards that wild magic is blasphemy and dangerous, due to the chaos taint. Allows the wizards to be necessary, rather than just a good idea. Explains why you would hate sorcerers, but allow black robes into your ranks.
Cons: Annoys 5th Age fans, isn't really supported in the rules with the 3e sorcerer.
Those are the three simplest theories of wild magic that keep popping up. So, which one do y'all like best?
3) Moons as Filters: Magic was kept locked away from the gods of magic for their own good. Wild magic was tainted with chaos, so the gods of magic removed the power of chaos from the magic through rituals and arcane magic. When the moons left, the barrier and filters weren't around anymore, so people started using "wild magic".
Pros: Supports the supposition of the wizards that wild magic is blasphemy and dangerous, due to the chaos taint. Allows the wizards to be necessary, rather than just a good idea. Explains why you would hate sorcerers, but allow black robes into your ranks.
Cons: Annoys 5th Age fans, isn't really supported in the rules with the 3e sorcerer
I tend to like this theory best...as of course firstly it seems to be what is being used....secondly every reason in both your pros and cons list are cool to me......aside from the Fifth Age fans unhappy with it. However, I do believe that something will eventually happen that changes things....we havent seen this conflict unfold yet. As far as it not beling in line with what the sorcerer actually does, I think therein lies the key...I think it will be shown that there is no chaotic taint to the wild sorcery....that it was merely unlocked by the power of chaos. Truly...if it were chaotic I would definitely allow for detect chaos to locate wild sorcery use in any way.
Anyhow....I think that the sorcerers will prove themselves to be not only in full control of their powers, but also I think that eventually there will be an order dedicated to wild sorcery...one whose members are every bit as wholly dedicated to their magic as the WoHS are dedicated to theirs. Whether or not these orders coexist peacefully, I dont think either is going to go anywhere. Perhaps now that the Tower of Wayreth has been reinstated for use by the WoHS the primal sorcerers will reconstruct their bastion of magic, The Academy. Wouldnt that be interesting to see the Abanisinia region become the seat of arcane power on Ansalon?
Cam’s theory from the Wizards’ Conclave thread, although quite interesting, makes things a bit complicated in my mind. The theory suggests that there are two forms of wild magic, one usable by creatures naturally talented in magic and one usable by mortals. Already, we have two forms of divine and arcane magic. This theory would take one form of arcane magic and split it in two.
What I would like to see, rather than “chaos-tainted” magic, would be some sort of chaos mage prestige class for sorcerers who tap into the chaotic effects of Wild Sorcery, and go mad in the process. This way, you get the best of both worlds. You have sorcerers who can feel the effects of a chaos taint, but you also have your normal, everyday sorcerers as well.
*shrugs*
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Cam’s theory from the Wizards’ Conclave thread, although quite interesting, makes things a bit complicated in my mind. The theory suggests that there are two forms of wild magic, one usable by creatures naturally talented in magic and one usable by mortals. Already, we have two forms of divine and arcane magic. This theory would take one form of arcane magic and split it in two.
Technically, we have only arcane magic and divine magic, and the difference is just in how a given creature gets it. "Wild magic" is the Chaos-influenced ("tainted" would be what the wizards would call it) arcane magic, high sorcery is the godly-influenced arcane magic, and whatever it is the dragons and faerie use is primal magic influenced by their own natures and suchlike. It's pretty obvious that you can draw magic out of items created in the eras of High Sorcery by wizards in order to boost your use of "wild magic", so they're at some level the same thing.
Ditto divine magic, etc etc.
There really aren't many theories going around about this. Well, there are, but it's more like "I really wish it worked this way..."
Cheers,
Cam
[i]
What I would like to see, rather than “chaos-tainted” magic, would be some sort of chaos mage prestige class for sorcerers who tap into the chaotic effects of Wild Sorcery, and go mad in the process. This way, you get the best of both worlds. You have sorcerers who can feel the effects of a chaos taint, but you also have your normal, everyday sorcerers as well.
*shrugs* [/b]
That sounds pretty cool.......Perhaps they would have powers akin to the WoHS...only the balancing factor to them might be that they temporarily lose a point or two of wisdom to account for their madness...or would it be charisma...and perhaps the higher class powers need for the Chaos Mage to permanently sacrifice points of the same ability score, going permanently mad but gaining powerful chaotic magics
1. In the beginning, there was Ancient Sorcery, the fundamental magical energy of the world. This is what everyone was using before the Greygem incident.
2. When the Greygem was introduced into Krynn, the interaction of Chaos with the magic of the world corrupted Ancient Sorcery, turning it into Wild Sorcery.
3. The gods of magic could have removed the Chaotic taint, but Lunitari thought it could be used safely for the sake of wonder, and Nuitari believed that he could take advantage of it to increase his power on Krynn. To prevent sorcery from running wild over the world, though, they codified it into High Sorcery, which used specific rituals and formulae to prevent someone from tapping the Chaotic side of magic without controls. Dragons, fey, and other folk are so in-tune with the world and its magic that they don't need it; it's the Children of the Stars, who have never been quite 'at home' on Krynn, that need the limits of High Sorcery.
4. a. (This comes from back when DoSF's ending was being taken at face value.) With the departure of the gods, the gods of magic finally unified their power to restore Ancient Sorcery to its original state.
b. (For the WoS explanation) The destruction of the Greygem caused Chaos' interference with the flow of magic to dissipate, restoring Ancient Sorcery to a force useable by mortals.
Matthew L. Martin
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Arcane magic and divine magic are related some how arent they? I think that is the conclsion they came to in the Kingpriest Trilogy. Would the same be true of Chaos and Wizardly magic? What about the power of the heart and the clerical abilities?
In the kingpriest trilogy, I think Cathan found that divine magic and arcane magic felt the same because they were gifts of the gods. I'm thinking that it would not be ture of chaos magic and wizardly magic because chaos magic comes from the earth itself, not a god, right? Therefore they wouldn't "feel" the same. Same goes for power of the heart and clerical abilities. (just guessing here though
)But now...we have sorcerors. I was against them at first, but now I kind of like them. Another way to access magic, no big deal. But now.. this magic is wrong. Well ok.. that would explain why the Gods didnt want ppl using it before.. its not "safe". Yet...it is. Sorcery or "wild magic" or "ambient magic" or whatever... doesnt cause any ill effects. I mean zilch. So..uh..whats exactly wrong with it? Now see, if people went insane or started doing weird things, I could see why the moon gods are so against it. But there are no ill effects.
Now someone could come along and say "yes but give it time".. but sorcery now has been around for awhile. Several decades..and I havent seen any earth-shattering event. So now I look at sorcery and say..uh what makes it so bad? Absolutely nothing. Heck there are evil wizards who do the same thing as evil sorcerors. Anymore, it just looks like the moon gods advocate "moon magic" because they want a monopoly on it. Thats all it looks like to me. And that really annoys me.
And yes I know the moon gods are able to regulate wizards if everyone has to be under their power, but I dont see why that should have to be the way anymore. Its the 5th age, and mortals are the kings here, and they can do whatever they want. So...I say "Go sorcerors!" Dont let the moon gods monopolize arcane magic because they are afraid to not have the control anymore.
That's the way, after reading all the core novels and a few others, that I understand it to work.
That's the way, after reading all the core novels and a few others, that I understand it to work.
I think the question here is whether or not wild magic should be dangerous to use. I certainly argued so before, because we were talking about why the moon gods would allow black robes and not sorcerers if they worried about harm. I argued then that wild sorcery should have destructive metaphysical implications or consume the practitioners. I am glad my arguments were successful, because proof of a debaters success is not when they admit they are wrong (particularly on this forum) but when they later argue your position.
However, this would all hinge on gaining either rules (or flavour text) to support this. This would require a revised sorcerer class, or perhaps a "chaos sorcerer" prestige class. Warcraft, when dealing with magic that comes from demons says "This magic is heavily addictive and will drive you to madness and evil, but we aren't going to give you rules to simulate this because we can't do it without nerfing spellcasters".
That's the thing. We have to put it out there in black and white what exactly this "danger from chaos magic" actually is. If we don't want to make sorcery dangerous, then we should look for other alternatives as to why the Wizards of High Sorcery are justified in clamping down on it or consider that perhaps the Wizards of High Sorcery are not justified at all. Besides, if wild sorcery is a threat to the entire world, why are only the WOHS and lunar dieties concerned about it? Shouldn't all the gods be?
Personally, I'm leaning towards the whole "moons as portal" idea.
It gives a reason to why wild magic is not available in prior ages, and it also gives a reason as to why the conclave feels that they are the only ones who provide responsible training in magic. After all, if the only the way to access magic was through artifact or apotheosis, both methods clearly meant great power with little to no training.
Now the doorway has been ripped open and the world itself is saturated with power. 70% of the sorcerers are not a danger, being mere hedge wizards. What do you with the rest that are high enough level to be as powerful as the WoHS?
That I can't explain, but to go with the wild magic, part of why Luke has such hard teachings at his acadamy is because no one was able to pass down the teachings to Luke or very few teachings. Thus no one knew how to use The Force. I feel it was the same with the Wild Magic, everyone simply forgot how to use it, having been band by the Wizards. So basically no one realized it existed until Thakisis came back and taught how to tap into it.... (Obi-Wan teaching Luke) Its easy to explain why we havn't seen it and also easy to explain why certian creatures may have it. Wild Magic is in essence The Force, its in all things because it is creation be it Chaos influanced or not. Just like with The Force certian things are more powerful than others.
Just my thoughts and theroy
CGS
See, I could have handled that in the past, wild magic just wasn't safe..it backfired, caused insanity, etc. And thats why the Towers were created, the Wizards came to clean it up so to speak. and the rules set down. But now we've come to a problem, when 5th age started sorcery was the only arcane magic. So people started using it..and they learned its just fine. Nothing wrong. So why in the world would sorcerors who use sorcery just fine and have grown up on it would even switch? I understand people who used to use Wizardry magic wanting to switch back. But new people, heck I'd go with my innate talent anytime over laborously studying.
To me, it seems that the moon gods have come back and realized that the mortals dont need them anymore. Chaos has injected into sorcery the ability for it to be used and nothing to go wrong. And now they see their monopoly going down the drain. So what do they do..its an "abomination". It is funny that no other gods are worried about sorcery.
And now some people may even say, "yes but the moon gods put a check on the magic to make sure that everyone follows the rules". Which is bogus anyways...we've seen examples of wizards who go against the Conclave and/or the moon gods and have nothing happen to them. Raistlin and Fistandilus would be examples. Also look at the Knights of the Thorn. Yes they got attacked, and had no problem repelling them. Kind of sad if your "worshippers" can't even take on people who follow a different god and still use the same powers. And you are the gods of magic! The precedent here is, If you become powerful enough, there's not much the Conclave can do to you.
Magic is probably the most thought about inconsistancy that there is. Or at least it is in my opinion. Maybe the Towers of High Sorcery book will clear it up a little..and I'm sure it will have answers about some stuff, but I dont think anything less of a complete rehaul of what has happened will fix Krynn. I hate inconsistancies and it annoys me to no end not to know stuff. But i realize it happens, so I'll just go on like before and try to explain stuff to myself as much as possible heh.
To me, it seems that the moon gods have come back and realized that the mortals dont need them anymore. Chaos has injected into sorcery the ability for it to be used and nothing to go wrong. And now they see their monopoly going down the drain. So what do they do..its an "abomination". It is funny that no other gods are worried about sorcery.
Who says they aren't? But then again, each god has his own area of control, and arcane magic is the domain of the gods of magic.
The moon gods weren't around when sorcery was rediscovered. They haven't seen how well people have done. Kalrakin did nothing to reassure them, and I'm sure they're not that thrilled about the Thorn Knights using sorcery either. From their vantage point, the last time they encountered sorcery was when it caused wild magic storms and proved detrimental to Ansalon - the very reason for the creation of the Orders of High Sorcery.
It isn't necessarily about being elitist. It's about knowing the power of arcane magic, and the damage it can do if not controlled properly.
The gods are also timeless beings, and they know that while magic isn't a danger now, it may be again in the future.
Now if there was a reason why wild sorcery was so dangerous in some cataclysmic way, I could understand the whole "its bad" thing. Maybe if enough people used "chaos-tainted" magic there would be an influx and Chaos would come back, or something like that. that way there has to be a check on how many people use it or people need to use High Sorcery because the Gods of Magic can filter it or something.
I dunno, I've thought of a few other things to say but they are all incomplete so I'll end it there. Magic is just weird.
I may have some facts slightly off there, but that's why the gods of magic consider Wild Sorcery dangerous.
I think this is the thing you're tripping up on Dragonhelm. You want the Gods of Magic to be justified in cracking down on wild sorcery. I think though that it is quite plain to see that they aren't.
Unless of course some solid game rules or flavour text that distinguishes the harmful effects of sorcery and wizardry come into play.
If there was a justification for the creation of the Wizards of High Sorcery, it is pretty much gone now. Otherwise it needs to change its attitude to include wild sorcery as well. After all, sorcery does need training to use. You have to earn experience (XP) just like the wizards do, and the 5th Age stuff pretty much confirms that training is required.
Originally posted by ferratus
I think this is the thing you're tripping up on Dragonhelm. You want the Gods of Magic to be justified in cracking down on wild sorcery.
I do, do I? ;)
And here I thought I was merely presenting the viewpoint of the gods of magic, rather than my own opinion.
Ah, well. I can't argue with you, Terry. You win again!
:POriginally posted by Dragonhelm
I do, do I? ;)
And here I thought I was merely presenting the viewpoint of the gods of magic, rather than my own opinion.
Meh, then the gods of magic have no real justification for cracking down on sorcery.
I can certainly see this happening. Nuitari doesn't want wild sorcery because if all the evil and ambitious spellcasters are black robes, then he rules over all of them. Solinari might be genuinely concerned and unable or unwilling to trust the judgement of mortals. Lunitari... well who can tell what she is thinking.
I would also like to see some variety in the opinions among the conclave. That's what we seem to be missing. The debate among the wizards about this new source of arcane power that they've suddenly got to deal with. Especially since they were all practicing sorcerers for a decade or two.
Plus, I'm getting the feeling that everyone is getting a little tired of beating around the bush with wild sorcery. If wild sorcery is dangerous, we'd like to see it do something catastrophic that high sorcery wouldn't do. If it won't, then we'd like to learn the true motivations of the WoHS and the Moon Gods.
Ah, well. I can't argue with you, Terry. You win again!
Hurrah! That is good! But what is best in life?
A swift horse, falcons at your breast, and the wind in your hair!
Wrong! Conan, what is best in life?
To crush your enemy, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Its time that the Wizards get together and try to get their numbers up and build a "club". That means they are only a part of the arcane magic scene, and not the whole. Sorcerors will come into their own and do what they want to do, and some may like strict rules and brotherhood like the WoHS, and others will say bug off. I think wizards will start seeing that they are able to use magic and not have to be part of that "club".
Unfortunately, I really did like the whole "wizards had to be WoHS" thing. but now the inclusion of sorcerors has just made its time pass. People are capable of using magic and doing what they want with it. And now, being a WoHS is like joining the Elks Lodge or any other club... its neat and "prestigious", but not a necessity.
Originally posted by True_Blue
Personally, I agree ferratus. There needs to be some reason why sorcery is bad. I even don't need exact rules, as you said, just let us know how it will affect characters. The problem with that theory though is that sorcery has existed for decades now and nothing earth shatterring has happened. Nothing. There has been abolutely no difference between a wizard and a sorceror casting arcane spells.
The key element you're forgetting here is that up until the end of the War of Souls, wild magic wasn't capable of producing the incredible effects that it is capable of producing now. Takhisis was using the souls of the dead to siphon magic from those who were using it, which is the whole reason she pointed wild magic out to mortals in the first place. Sorcerers had been using it since 20 AC, which means it had been practiced for only 18 years before the Great Storm and the beginning of the War of Souls. 18 years, with all spellcasting requiring effort, and increasingly so after 30 AC until about a year or so before the War of Souls when it became almost routine to fail at using it.
I don't think those were ideal conditions to observe the threat of wild magic at all. Now with Takhisis dead and her leeching plan eliminated, wild mages are about to embark on a period of growing, uninhibited pursuit of their talents. Kalrakin's just the first.
Cheers,
Cam
But as I've pointed out before, what can sorcery do that wizardry can't? What evil or problematic outcome can come from it, that wizardry can't have happen. Look at my above examples. I've seen a lot of bad things happen from wizardry, which seems not to be a problem. And I'm not talking about "evil" things necessarily, I'm talking about world shattering. Which is supposedly the reason why sorcery shouldnt be used.
Shoot, Kalrakin's actions dont bother me that much. He was trying to attain power and started destroying the Tower to get it. Raistlin challenged all the gods and won (alternate timeline)..this is by far a lot worse I think. And I didnt see the Gods of Magic or the Conclave do much.
So what if Kalrakin was evil. There are evil, wild wizards too. People can say the Conclave watches over them, but the growing theme no matter what anyone says is: If your powerful enough, the Conclave can't do squat. So again I say, I see no difference between wizardry and sorcery. Thus, sorcery has as much right to exist as does wizardry.
Or they should take up the fight against clerical magic. People shouldnt be allowed to use this power because sometimes they even try to achieve godhood professing that they know better than the gods. This instance caused world-wide destruction and millions untold died.
I know this comes off as somewhat inflammatory, and I'm sorry for that. Yes there has been an answer. And I realize the official reason is that wild magic has caused problems thousands of years ago, and the moon gods were formulated to help cure this problem and make magic more prolific and better used. I just hope that sometime soon we see that sorcery does cause problems and the problems of "wild magic". This would show people like me that you guys are all right, and sorcery is bad for Krynn.
But I personally can't judge the source of power by how people use it. Take anything in the world of Krynn and it can be used for bad purposes. I want cold, hard facts of why its so bad for krynn. I know we keep going in circles and I'm sorry for that. But welp, just like to show my input.
There is still the issue of game rules & effects, however, since according to the DLCS right now sorcerers ARE (mechanically at least) perfectly safe casters. If nothing changes it will be difficult to pull off the idea that, well, the WOHS have no justification and the gods of magic are wrong--unless s/o does some really good storytelling (which is entirely possible). However, assuming that Cam may be foreshadowing some ideas/rules we peons have no inkling of...what are some of the "bad things" we might discover that wild magic can do??
Defilers & Preservers: One idea could be something like the magic of Dark Sun's Athas, where spellcasters draw life energy from the world around them...defilers withering vegetatation for stretches around them and preservers absorbing energy slower & more safely (for the environment). Primal sorcerers of Krynn might have some direct, harmful effect on the environment around them (maybe even the weather...taking the stories of ancient "magical storms" literally...think "evil weather" in BoVD).
Wild Mages: I'm sure many remember the Tome of Magic's wild mage class, with its charts of random effects ranging from increased or decreased caster level to the unpredictable results of Wild Surges (target gets bunny ears instead of being reduced, fireball explodes around caster instead of target, etc.). Primal sorcerers of Krynn might have to deal with constant fluctuations in the world's energies now that it is no longer being steadily siphoned off by Takhisis. (By contrast, we might think of High Sorcery as a steady beam of energy.)
Combo: Maybe the two above ideas could be combined and Primal Sorcerers affect not the physical environment around them, but the magical environment around them. Perhaps whenever primal sorcery is used now it creates a temporary area of wild magic where wild surges (per the wild mage class) occur for ALL casters (sorcers & wizards, maybe even divine casters too). Maybe it lasts for 10 minutes per primal sorcerer level or something. (Hmm...or is this too reminiscent of FR's Time of Troubles?)
Cam, are there any ideas on the table for some effects like this, or is it too early yet to say?
Anyone else have other ideas for possible effects? =)
No, if the magic has unforeseen consequences then they'll have to be subtle, though perhaps far reaching and catastrophic nonetheless.
Or again, it might just be the wizards and the moon gods not joining the Age of Mortals, to their sorrow.
But again, if something would happen it would prove that a lot of you guys are right. I personally don't see what sorcery can do thats more harmful than wizardry. But only time will tell.
I would rather it be like that personally. As I've said before, then they would kind of be like Mystara with the Weave in FR, only balanced because there are 3 of them. (But then that opens a can of worms about renegades, etc.)
I just think the whole "sorcery causes doom" backstory lacks detail and support. Yes I guess you can we know what has happened in the past. Also, as I've said a lot of times (and will try not to say anymore after this) I havent seen anything so terrible that sorcery does that wizardry cant match or better.
As I said before I think magic and gods is the most loopy thing in Dragonlance. Too many just vague things. Or at least I think so.
When the DLCS came about, I think the intention was to go with continuity with D&D, which is why the PHB sorcerer now represents the DL sorcerer.
A person can shape their sorcerer in any number of ways. Want to play a SAGA-like sorcerer with D&D rules? Take the Academy Sorcerer prestige class. Want a PHB-style sorcerer? You got it!
It's the great compromise, allowing one to go any direction they want.