Officially, Weis and Hickman claim that in the official history of Krynn, Soth did not go to Ravenloft.
As far as I am concerned, untill KNIGHT OF THE BLACK ROSE is somehow erased from the history of the world, then as far as I am concerned, Soth did indeed go to Ravenloft.
I thought that KNIGHT OF THE BLACK ROSe was extraordinarily well written. THe people who wrote it clearly researched the DragonLance world, clearly learned it's history and everything that happened and then came up with their Soth Storyline. They did a better job at researching then a lot of the more recent Dragonlance authors have done, definitely better then the authors of the DragonLance sourcebook for WIZARDS did.
I think when books are well written and researched, that they should 'be in'. The fact that Knight of the Black Rose did greater justice to the DragonLance legacy then most of the 5th age books have is a real shame on Weis/Hickman's part.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
This argument has been made before.
Officially, Weis and Hickman claim that in the official history of Krynn, Soth did not go to Ravenloft.
As far as I am concerned, untill KNIGHT OF THE BLACK ROSE is somehow erased from the history of the world, then as far as I am concerned, Soth did indeed go to Ravenloft.
I thought that KNIGHT OF THE BLACK ROSe was extraordinarily well written. THe people who wrote it clearly researched the DragonLance world, clearly learned it's history and everything that happened and then came up with their Soth Storyline. They did a better job at researching then a lot of the more recent Dragonlance authors have done, definitely better then the authors of the DragonLance sourcebook for WIZARDS did.
I think when books are well written and researched, that they should 'be in'. The fact that Knight of the Black Rose did greater justice to the DragonLance legacy then most of the 5th age books have is a real shame on Weis/Hickman's part.
Could you be any more insulting? I agree personally that Soth's sojourn to Ravenloft happened....and it fits well with what happened to him upon his return to Krynn. However...to say that SP havent done well with their research is ridiculous.....these are some of the most well detailed products I have seen since...well...the Fifth Age gaming material. Which undeniably had more detail than any of the previous products. And as far as the comment on the 5th age material.....it's subjective...you might not like it....but that doesnt make it right to go bashing it like that....some people here...and a good deal of them I have learned tend to be fans of the material......when I came here I was a strict 5A hater....That has since changed as I actually gave it a chance.....to me it is very compelling....and most importantly is just another part of the continually moving storyline.
Rant over....my apologies
EDIT: I have since noticed that it is 3 AM and I am completely overtired.....and most likely flew off the proverbial handle at this......my sincere apologies Mr Solarte
Dagaard Keep is not the place it used to be. After all it's was dropped on him. I cannot remember if it is a ruin or just messed up a bit. I know the ceiling where he killed his wife collasped on him but I'm not sure about the rest of the keep. Hop that helps you.
I'm a little behind on what has happened to him since then.
Soth returned from RL....is asked by Mina to captain the army of the dead...he refuses, Takhisis makes him mortal and insists...threatening to kill him, he tells her to shove it..refuses and is killed by having Dargaard Keep topple on top of him.
Thanks for the info Serena :D
I think when books are well written and researched, that they should 'be in'. The fact that Knight of the Black Rose did greater justice to the DragonLance legacy then most of the 5th age books have is a real shame on Weis/Hickman's part.
What the...
Love always,
GCS
I'm updating that module and changing it quite a bit, and when I work out how, I'm going to tie it together with the Key of Destiny.
I'll post his stats here as human when I'm done if I remember, I'm pretty busy these days.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
I thought that KNIGHT OF THE BLACK ROSe was extraordinarily well written. THe people who wrote it clearly researched the DragonLance world, clearly learned it's history and everything that happened and then came up with their Soth Storyline. They did a better job at researching then a lot of the more recent Dragonlance authors have done, definitely better then the authors of the DragonLance sourcebook for WIZARDS did.
I certainly agree that the novel Knight of the Black Rose was far more true to the established character than Lord Soth by Edo van Belkom. I'm sorry you think we didn't do our homework when we worked on the the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, but it was not for lack of trying. I'd be interested to see your example of a complete, well-researched Dragonlance game product as a basis for comparison.
As for dealing with Soth's did-he-or-didn't-he trip to Ravenloft, it really doesn't matter as far as we at Sovereign Press are concerned. By license we are only allowed to deal with things Dragonlance, and Ravenloft is a property licensed by another company (Sword & Sorcery Studios). Note in the new Ravenloft products that they deal with much the same thing. From what I've seen, Soth is only referenced as "the Black Rose" and no Dragonlance specifics can be found.
I can understand defending James Lowder, who is a good author and Lake Geneva local--though I'm not sure why it opened up criticism against the work we do at Sovereign Press.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by slayergirl
stick to the topic of how to make Dargaard Keep a truly memorable dunegon adventure experience for the PC's who will be exploring it. If anyone has any suggestions to that end I would certainly be happy to hear them. Thanks again.
I'm not sure that's entirely possible anymore. The way I understood it was that Dargaard Keep completely colapsed in on itself. My understanding was that it is basically now just a pile of rubble...one that can be sifted through, but that's about it.
Soth's body, however, one would think is most definately still there burried in said rubble.
Originally posted by slayergirl
I thank Jaime Chambers for his intelligent post on this subject. Its certainly helped to clear things up for me a bit. There doesn't seem to be anything in either Dragonlance or Ravenloft source material that would prevent me from using Dargaard Keep to its fullest extent. Whether or not the legacy of Soth remains at the Keep or not, seems to be an entirely seperate issue that shouldn't have much bearing on my using the setting for a dungeon adventure. I never really meant for this topic to get into the territory of which setting (DL or Ravenloft) has done more justice to the character of Lord Soth. I apologize if people interpreted it that way and subsequently took it in that direction. I think it would be beneficial for further posts on this subject to stick to the topic of how to make Dargaard Keep a truly memorable dunegon adventure experience for the PC's who will be exploring it. If anyone has any suggestions to that end I would certainly be happy to hear them. Thanks again.
Dargaard Keep has been largely trashed in the post-War of Souls era and Soth himself is gone. For those either using past eras OR creating games using a variant storyline, we've included a full stat-block and writeup on Soth in War of the Lance--as well as description of Dargaard Keep including map and description! Definitely enough to get you started!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Soth returned from RL....is asked by Mina to captain the army of the dead...he refuses, Takhisis makes him mortal and insists...threatening to kill him, he tells her to shove it..refuses and is killed by having Dargaard Keep topple on top of him.
I may be wrong, but I believe he left krynn right after Kitiara died and came back in time for Dragons of Summer Flame, because I think their was a reference to him being at a meeting of some sort with various Dark Knight leaders.
But this would be talking about a novel directly so I guess it is illegal?
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Why is it considered to be non-canon.
Because if he really had a pet Tarrasque locked up in his dungeon, I'm pretty sure a lot of powerful people (not to mention the gods) would have had all sorts of issues with it.
Also I'm pretty sure Kitiara did not wind up turned into a Penanggalan after her body was taken away from Palanthas by Soth.
Originally posted by jechambers
I certainly agree that the novel Knight of the Black Rose was far more true to the established character than Lord Soth by Edo van Belkom. I'm sorry you think we didn't do our homework when we worked on the the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, but it was not for lack of trying. I'd be interested to see your example of a complete, well-researched Dragonlance game product as a basis for comparison.
Well, I can think of a lot of timeline errors in the Campaign Settings, that should have been caught while reading the DRAGONS and TWINS Trilogy, which should be the first 6 books read by any one trying to make a Sourcebook for DragonLance. In truth, all books should be read to make sure they have everything on target. BUt the timeline errors were aggregious, it made me wonder if you guys were even aware of what had been said in the original books.
For example, Fistandantilus leaving the Cataclysm adn coming back just 38 years later, when anyone who read the TWINS trilogy knows it was 100 years later. Or Berem's tale happening 200 years+after the Cataclysm when Berem's own words confirm it happened a few years after the Cataclysm.
It came across as sloppy research on your part, if you were truely a part of it.
As for dealing with Soth's did-he-or-didn't-he trip to Ravenloft, it really doesn't matter as far as we at Sovereign Press are concerned. By license we are only allowed to deal with things Dragonlance, and Ravenloft is a property licensed by another company (Sword & Sorcery Studios). Note in the new Ravenloft products that they deal with much the same thing. From what I've seen, Soth is only referenced as "the Black Rose" and no Dragonlance specifics can be found.
I can understand defending James Lowder, who is a good author and Lake Geneva local--though I'm not sure why it opened up criticism against the work we do at Sovereign Press.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Well, as to the rest of it, I like Soth's journey to Ravenloft. The author clearly read everything, made some very reasonable assumptions about Krynn and Dragonlance...and then took us to Ravenloft. I enjoyed it thorougly, and as far as I am concerned it all happened.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
For example, Fistandantilus leaving the Cataclysm adn coming back just 38 years later, when anyone who read the TWINS trilogy knows it was 100 years later. Or Berem's tale happening 200 years+after the Cataclysm when Berem's own words confirm it happened a few years after the Cataclysm.
It came across as sloppy research on your part, if you were truely a part of it.
Berem and Jasla's discovery of the Foundation Stone has been given as 157 AC since the beginning, in the modules and then in Dragonlance Adventures which was written by Tracy and Margaret. Takhisis enters the world in 141 AC, and Jasla is killed in 157 AC. Berem's account of his tale still makes sense taken from the point of view of a man who lived in an era of great despair, famine, plague, and darkness. It is no longer considered to be the tale of a man who had lived through the Cataclysm itself.
As for the Dwarfgate War, that has been given the date of 39 AC since the earliest timeline which mentions it. Duncan and Kharas both lived through the Cataclysm, and the hill dwarves were locked out of Thorbardin in the first century of th Age of Despair (which 39 AC falls under). Every reference now gives that date as the time of the Dwarfgate Wars.
Research doesn't just involve going back to the earliest source or reference for something and ignoring all that came after it. Sovereign Press certainly placed the novels ahead of gaming products where contradictions existed, primarily because the modules and the novels were designed to achieve different goals. But, in consolidating all the varying sources together, and achieving a timeline which accounts for all references, there are bound to be points where what is stated in Chronicles or Legends is no longer accepted canon.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
Well, I can think of a lot of timeline errors in the Campaign Settings, that should have been caught while reading the DRAGONS and TWINS Trilogy, which should be the first 6 books read by any one trying to make a Sourcebook for DragonLance. In truth, all books should be read to make sure they have everything on target. BUt the timeline errors were aggregious, it made me wonder if you guys were even aware of what had been said in the original books.
For example, Fistandantilus leaving the Cataclysm adn coming back just 38 years later, when anyone who read the TWINS trilogy knows it was 100 years later. Or Berem's tale happening 200 years+after the Cataclysm when Berem's own words confirm it happened a few years after the Cataclysm.
It came across as sloppy research on your part, if you were truely a part of it.
Well, as to the rest of it, I like Soth's journey to Ravenloft. The author clearly read everything, made some very reasonable assumptions about Krynn and Dragonlance...and then took us to Ravenloft. I enjoyed it thorougly, and as far as I am concerned it all happened.
Solarte....take a moment and look at the cover of your DLCS. Whats the first name there....well my goodness that's Margaret Weis...didn't she write those books you're talking about? Im pretty sure that with her as the head of this team that they were definitely aware of what was said in the books. Before when I posted to your last...I felt perhaps that I was too harsh in that I had been half exhausted when I read it and mistook your intent.....but I was right the fist time....you were and still are being insulting. The people at Soveriegn Press have presented us with the most informative volume that DL has seen yet in a gaming resource....and if the timeline is truly different than what it was in past materials.....it is likely a retcon in order to make a better fit for all that happens in the vast history of the setting.
and this...
It came across as sloppy research on your part, if you were truely a part of it.
seems to be the most insulting of all. if he was truly part of it...as if he would falsely claim to be? No...He and all the others at SP have done a fantastic job bringing Dragonlance back to its fans and roots as a game setting. Why do you feel the need to insult them?
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Berem and Jasla's discovery of the Foundation Stone has been given as 157 AC since the beginning, in the modules and then in Dragonlance Adventures which was written by Tracy and Margaret. Takhisis enters the world in 141 AC, and Jasla is killed in 157 AC. Berem's account of his tale still makes sense taken from the point of view of a man who lived in an era of great despair, famine, plague, and darkness. It is no longer considered to be the tale of a man who had lived through the Cataclysm itself.
I gotta disagree with it. Berem made if very clear he had seen the Cataclysm, especially when he is telling about how dark and dire those times were and he mentions some exposure to the clerics before they disappeared with the Cataclysm. He mentions how he saw the Cataclysm and everything he tells is consitent with him and Jasla encountering the Temple within 5-10 years after the Cataclysm.
THere is no excuse for them not to have read Berem's tale and taken that under advisement.
As for the Dwarfgate War, that has been given the date of 39 AC since the earliest timeline which mentions it. Duncan and Kharas both lived through the Cataclysm, and the hill dwarves were locked out of Thorbardin in the first century of th Age of Despair (which 39 AC falls under). Every reference now gives that date as the time of the Dwarfgate Wars.
The Dragonlance sourcebook is the only place I have ever seen it refered to as 39 Years after the Cataclysm. The Twins Trilogy makes it very clear it is 100 years after the Cataclysm. There was never any question about that, Raistlin makes it very clear and TEST OF THE TWINS makes that clear it is 100 years afterwards. Again, there is no excuse to have not read that part and taken it under advicement.
As you said, Kharas and Duncan are dwarves, with a lifespan of at least 300+ years. If they were about 100 when the Cataclysm hit then it is a consistent timeline.
And just on the two points above, the fact is, that there is dispute on the timeline and whenever there is a dispute, they should have reverted to the actual novels whenever possible, similar to the old "Canon Debate" on the SW Movies/RPG.
Research doesn't just involve going back to the earliest source or reference for something and ignoring all that came after it. Sovereign Press certainly placed the novels ahead of gaming products where contradictions existed, primarily because the modules and the novels were designed to achieve different goals. But, in consolidating all the varying sources together, and achieving a timeline which accounts for all references, there are bound to be points where what is stated in Chronicles or Legends is no longer accepted canon.
Cheers,
Cam
Perhaps Weis/Hickman should have clarified what is canon and what is not canon, and what takes priority, similar to how George Lucas has made it clear that it goes the movies, the novels, and the radio plays and then everything else when finding 'canon'. They at least could have a prepared 'timeline' similar to what J.R.R. Tolkein had done a long time ago about.
As I said above, perhaps I was using GL's 'sources' as how Canon should go in all Fantasy and Sci-Fi stuff. For example, it is established it goes Books First/Movies second when it comes to the LORD OF THE RINGS novels. GL it goes Movies first/Books second, so I think Weis/Hickman should have done the same.
Most people have read the books so when we see something that is not just off target, but completely off the reservation in the Sourcebooks it makes me wonder if they even read the books when read that.
And once again....the Skullcap incident has always been at 39 AC. Perhaps you should look deeper into your gaming material, you know.....where all the timelines are.
They at least could have a prepared 'timeline' similar to what J.R.R. Tolkein had done a long time ago about.
once again....they did.....it was in the DL Modules....which came before the novels.
Most people have read the books so when we see something that is not just off target, but completely off the reservation in the Sourcebooks it makes me wonder if they even read the books when read that.
Once again....extensive research went into compiling the sourcebooks....you have been shown by Cam which sources contradict what you say about the dates. And as I sit here and check them....he's right. There is just no need to be insulting and propose that the team working for one of the finest authors in the saga, who have called working on DL a labor of love on many occasions, has not even so much as cracked a volume about what they work on and do so well.
I guess it's obvious that I am a Soveriegn Press supporter, but beleive you me, had they put out an unsatisfactory product I would have complained....but the core book for the setting was excellent, by my opinion I wish it had had a higher page count so that they could have included more......and all the subsequent supplements they have produced are fantastic....each one better than the last.
And now.....finally....to all who have looked to this thread for information regarding Lord Soth....I apologize for contributing to its derailment.
Well, as to the rest of it, I like Soth's journey to Ravenloft. The author clearly read everything, made some very reasonable assumptions about Krynn and Dragonlance...and then took us to Ravenloft. I enjoyed it thorougly, and as far as I am concerned it all happened.
... Yes, because Lord Soth ALWAYS had those "Bigby's Hand" type powers... ;)
Such powers can easily be explained by ... "he didn't use them before." I haven't a problem with that.
I liked the Ravenloft books about Soth (one of few RL books that picked my interest). And, like someone else wrote above, I have the feeling that they "fit" the Lord Soth I know from Weis & Hickman far better than the DL "Lord Soth" novel.
But that doesn't mean that I liked the idea of Soth vanishing from DL, connecting Krynn with the Domains of Dread (I don't like plane/world-hopping).
And so I prefer - for Roleplaying and "my" History of DL - the version, that he didn't vanish - though still, I like the 2 Ravenloft novels.
What other things they did with/to Soth in Ravenloft - I neither know nor care.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
By that logic it should be the gaming materials that come first in DL then...since that is what came first to begin with.
I gotta disagree on that. It should have been the Novels that were taken into consideration first to make the Gaming Materials to begin with.
You can disagree with the date given for the Berem thing all you like....but the modules were there first....before the novels....which has been stuck to in every gaming reference....So it makes no sense to disagree with it after all......since 157 AC was the date given for the event since the beginning. You say there is no excuse to not have read Berem's tale.....well...you see, it wasnt written yet at that point. The modules predated it, therefore in truth it would be the novels that mucked that up. Consider it one of those things...like how in the novels Ariakas is a black robe....but in the modules he is a cleric of Takhisis. things changed from the modules to the novels.....what works well in a game doesnt always work as well in a book.
I disagree on all that. The peole whom made the modules and gaming material should have read the entire DRAGONS trilogy and then they would have seen on their own, before making the Gaming Material, that Berem saw the Cataclysm and everything else in his tale was consistent with someone whom could not have been more then 14 or 15 when the Cataclysm happened (and how he and his sister 'grew old' before their time because of all that happened to them)
And the stuff about Ariakas is even worse. The novels were clear: he was a Black Robe! How there could be any mistaking that by the people that made the modules is beyond me. The Books WERE released before any modules were ever released.
And once again....the Skullcap incident has always been at 39 AC. Perhaps you should look deeper into your gaming material, you know.....where all the timelines are. once again....they did.....it was in the DL Modules....which came before the novels.
Once again....extensive research went into compiling the sourcebooks....you have been shown by Cam which sources contradict what you say about the dates. And as I sit here and check them....he's right. There is just no need to be insulting and propose that the team working for one of the finest authors in the saga, who have called working on DL a labor of love on many occasions, has not even so much as cracked a volume about what they work on and do so well.
I don't mean to insult them. But I do think that the novels should have taken precedent over anything and as such, when I see things that are so blatantly against what the novels show, it makes me wonder how one could make such a mistake without really researching. It would be like going into court trying to argue that the Press does not have the right to print, without reading the constitution and seeing there is a first amendment.
I guess it's obvious that I am a Soveriegn Press supporter, but beleive you me, had they put out an unsatisfactory product I would have complained....but the core book for the setting was excellent, by my opinion I wish it had had a higher page count so that they could have included more......and all the subsequent supplements they have produced are fantastic....each one better than the last.
And now.....finally....to all who have looked to this thread for information regarding Lord Soth....I apologize for contributing to its derailment.
Fair enough. I did not mean to 'attack' the makers of the Campaign sourcebook. My original point was the the guy who wrote KNIGHT OF THE BLACK ROSE took extraordinary steps to research and prepare his novel. He obviously knew about Chemosh when he had not really appeared, knew about Soth's history and background, took into consideration Raistlin's war against the Queen of Darkness in the Abyss, stuff like that, it was the little things that showed me that he was an extraordinary writer who got it right. WHen I see things that were accepted history all of a sudden thrown out the window, it came across as sloppy research to me.
I gotta disagree on that. It should have been the Novels that were taken into consideration first to make the Gaming Materials to begin with.
.
I disagree on all that. The peole whom made the modules and gaming material should have read the entire DRAGONS trilogy and then they would have seen on their own, before making the Gaming Material, that Berem saw the Cataclysm and everything else in his tale was consistent with someone whom could not have been more then 14 or 15 when the Cataclysm happened (and how he and his sister 'grew old' before their time because of all that happened to them)
And the stuff about Ariakas is even worse. The novels were clear: he was a Black Robe! How there could be any mistaking that by the people that made the modules is beyond me. The Books WERE released before any modules were ever released.
This however couldnt have been done. There were no novels per se when the modules were done. The mods were the original Dragonlance product. The novels were a by product of the games...something originally made to be a companion to the gaming material....but the novels took off...better than any expected from two unheard of authors.
Originally posted by Koranith
If the Annotated Chronicles are read one will find out that the books were originally written after the modules were playtested for DoAT. Then for DoWN they were done at the same time. Which finally brings us to DoSP where the novel was written before the game was finished testing. Ariakas was indeed a Cleric of Takhisis in the module but was changed to a Black Robe Wizard because accrording to Weis/Hickman we had already seen a Cleric of Takhisis in the Highlord Verminard. That's cannon.
Well, I was not aware of that. As far as I was concerned, I was coming from someone whom read the DRAGONS trilogy back in the late 80's when I first found out about them. I was not aware of any of this other stuff, so that is new to me.
Assuming it is true (the above) I still think it they should have made it clear it goes Novels first and then everything else. Maybe it is the Star Wars reflex as far as canon goes, but the fact is, I think giving the books creedence is always a good idea.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I can somewhat understand where you are coming from Solarte...I mean...I agree that ideally it would be great to have all sources agree with eachother.....and to be honest I totally agree with you that Lowder is an exceptional author.
Thanks, I know what I think you are trying say.
.
This however couldnt have been done. There were no novels per se when the modules were done. The mods were the original Dragonlance product. The novels were a by product of the games...something originally made to be a companion to the gaming material....but the novels took off...better than any expected from two unheard of authors.
Apparently, I am just finding this out for the first time. I was under the impression it was the Books that came out first and the gaming material was generated off those books. That seemed the logical progression of how things worked.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
Well, I was not aware of that. As far as I was concerned, I was coming from someone whom read the DRAGONS trilogy back in the late 80's when I first found out about them. I was not aware of any of this other stuff, so that is new to me.
Assuming it is true (the above) I still think it they should have made it clear it goes Novels first and then everything else. Maybe it is the Star Wars reflex as far as canon goes, but the fact is, I think giving the books creedence is always a good idea.
Aha, MR. DMJoe, who is not doing his research now. I suggest you sir do your reaserch before you go attacking Sov Press, and calling thier work wrong. Not to mention you say that the people who did the DLCS should have read the Dragon's Trilogy well if I remember correctly Maragret Wies wrote that Trilogy, and she helped write the DLCS, so doesn't that mean she should know how things go? And I believe there is a certian order its starts with what Maragret and Tracy say, then it goes from there.
And as far as Star Wars creedence goes, George messed up the story so we should just all ignore the first three movies and go with the orginal Trilogy and the books after it, disreguard any prequal crap.
GCS
Originally posted by Green_Cloaked_Sorcerer
Aha, MR. DMJoe, who is not doing his research now. I suggest you sir do your reaserch before you go attacking Sov Press, and calling thier work wrong. Not to mention you say that the people who did the DLCS should have read the Dragon's Trilogy well if I remember correctly Maragret Wies wrote that Trilogy, and she helped write the DLCS, so doesn't that mean she should know how things go? And I believe there is a certian order its starts with what Maragret and Tracy say, then it goes from there.
IT was a very fair and logical assumption to make that the Books came out before any gaming material. I read the DragonLance Trilogy for the first time back in late 1980's/early 1990's.
It still does not end the facts that in the books, certain events were presented in a manner that indicated little or no "leeway". It was 100% clear in both the Twins Trilogy and in the recent Kingpriest Trilogy that Fistandantilus goes 100 years into the future. The TWins Trilogy was written 15 years ago; the Kingpriest Trilogy just this year. So for them to get that wrong tells me that they did not read the books. Similarly, with Berem, I concede that DRAGONS OF SPRING DAWNING did not flat out say exactly when, although Berem makes it clear he experienced the Cataclysm.
I went off and will continue to go off the books as the #1 source, with the occasional having to balance out different books in order to put things in perspective or for source. I read the KNIGHT OF THE BLACK ROSE book back when it first came out. I liked it, it was extraordinarily well written. So in my eyes, the events of that book happened. It just so happens that Soth was somehow able to return from that realm back to Krynn when most others can't.
And as far as Star Wars creedence goes, George messed up the story so we should just all ignore the first three movies and go with the orginal Trilogy and the books after it, disreguard any prequal crap.GCS [/b]
Agreed.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
IT was a very fair and logical assumption to make that the Books came out before any gaming material. I read the DragonLance Trilogy for the first time back in late 1980's/early 1990's.
It still does not end the facts that in the books, certain events were presented in a manner that indicated little or no "leeway". It was 100% clear in both the Twins Trilogy and in the recent Kingpriest Trilogy that Fistandantilus goes 100 years into the future. The TWins Trilogy was written 15 years ago; the Kingpriest Trilogy just this year. So for them to get that wrong tells me that they did not read the books. Similarly, with Berem, I concede that DRAGONS OF SPRING DAWNING did not flat out say exactly when, although Berem makes it clear he experienced the Cataclysm.
I went off and will continue to go off the books as the #1 source, with the occasional having to balance out different books in order to put things in perspective or for source. I read the KNIGHT OF THE BLACK ROSE book back when it first came out. I liked it, it was extraordinarily well written. So in my eyes, the events of that book happened. It just so happens that Soth was somehow able to return from that realm back to Krynn when most others can't.
Agreed. [/b]
I can't fully blame you for this, but my thought is as there is no creedence as to what comes first I see it as if Maragret Wies's name is on it, than this is the new way things are. I don't blame you because I do what you do with Star Wars, Orig Trilogy and books then Pre movies and books. But the difference there is Lucas wanted his universe so it was streamline one thing happens or is said in one book it HAS to be that way in later books. I love that way of thinking, sadla Lucas broke his own word on that, the original Star Wars story was amazing, this new one I would gladly flush down the toilet or trade in for a free breakfast. But that is for the Star Wars boards and I may go there and post, but we are all pretty sure we know how dumb Lucas became.
Anyways back to DL I see that as there is no set way to Order stuff maybe somthing happened in a side novel to go against what somthing you said was, or maybe when they worked out the time line the fact someone when 100 yrs into the future coinsided with somthing it could not as it was not stated in the books. Or maybe the character just got it wrong and said, "Well I don't know this place sure looks like it could be 100 yrs into the future, lets go with that." The thing is with out a set time for time travel divices its hard to judge where you go, or should I say when. This is why I never like Time travel in the story because it usually, unless the story is just about time travel(ie Back to the Future), messes up how things go. I'm confused as to if Fistandantalas even existed anymore or if it was Raist the whole time according to the books. I havn't read "Legends" for the time travel reason. All I can say for sure is Jamie Chambers, Cam Banks, Maragret Wies, and everyone else who work on these books for you, work thier
off for us to have a top quality product, and thats what I feel and I'm sure most everyone on these boards feel. If you think you can do a much better job compileing a time line then by all means do so, use it in your adventures, heck send it to Sov. Press if they agree and like it or even your effort maybe they'll offer you a freelance job.The fine people at Sov. Press do this for a living and I don't doubt for a second that they pour thier heart and soul and all thier time into creating these books. In this industry you can't, because your work suffers, and then your with out a job. This is about making you happy with yourself and the world you play in. I know for a fact that some of them play D&D and I'm sure its on Krynn. So why would they make somthing that is inadaqute to the world they themselves play in? Lucas has no more care for Star Wars, he has said that he doesn't care to make more movies, that is why it suffered, Dragon Lance doesn't suffer and its because its writers care about the world of Krynn and the heros within.
Thanks DmJoe,
GCS
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Maybe all of this uncertanity will be cleared up when the War of the Lance sourcebook is released?
Yes perhaps as the wrinkles will be ironed out in War of the Lance. Otherwise you can chalk the errors up to inconsistentsies in retelling of stories. Remember our own history is ripe with conflicting opinions and dates. That is due to differences in tracking time, changes in time-keeping methods, retelling of stories generation after generation tends to convolute slightly, etc.
Remember the Irda's history of creation varies from the dwarves; dwarves from the elves; elves from the Irdas and so forth. Perhaps the "errors" we see are due to the stories being told by different peoples. When the people to Dragonlance get to our level nit picking every detail perhaps the "truth" will finally be revealed.
Originally posted by Koranith
Yes perhaps as the wrinkles will be ironed out in War of the Lance. Otherwise you can chalk the errors up to inconsistentsies in retelling of stories. Remember our own history is ripe with conflicting opinions and dates. That is due to differences in tracking time, changes in time-keeping methods, retelling of stories generation after generation tends to convolute slightly, etc.
Remember the Irda's history of creation varies from the dwarves; dwarves from the elves; elves from the Irdas and so forth. Perhaps the "errors" we see are due to the stories being told by different peoples. When the people to Dragonlance get to our level nit picking every detail perhaps the "truth" will finally be revealed.
Ah Koranith, you are a wise man. I fully agree with your thought process here and it was part of my own, just my mind get muddled as I type and forget things. My tounge moves a lot faster than my mind. Anyways yes history is a messed up thing stories are almost never the same twice, even if its a book, you read it and find somthing you missed the first time you read it.
GCS
Originally posted by Green_Cloaked_Sorcerer
I can't fully blame you for this, but my thought is as there is no creedence as to what comes first I see it as if Maragret Wies's name is on it, than this is the new way things are.
True, and I guess whomever it is that made the statement that "We should take in all books and choose and pick whichever parts we like to fit our vision of the world" sorta things is a good idea.
I don't blame you because I do what you do with Star Wars, Orig Trilogy and books then Pre movies and books. But the difference there is Lucas wanted his universe so it was streamline one thing happens or is said in one book it HAS to be that way in later books.I love that way of thinking, sadla Lucas broke his own word on that, the original Star Wars story was amazing, this new one I would gladly flush down the toilet or trade in for a free breakfast. But that is for the Star Wars boards and I may go there and post, but we are all pretty sure we know how dumb Lucas became.
Agree, agree, agree, agree!!! How he managed to **** up the SW Universe is almost unbelievable. When it was announced in 1997 he was going to do it, I was so excited, and how he managed to ruin it is almost unfathomable.
There is nothing wrong with EU as long as it is the GOOD EU, which there is some off. The new SW MOvies are worse then anything that has ever appeared in EU in my opinion, to the point that I place a greater emphasis on EU then I do on the Prequel Trilogy. But like you said, that is for the SW Galaxy.
Anyways back to DL I see that as there is no set way to Order stuff maybe somthing happened in a side novel to go against what somthing you said was, or maybe when they worked out the time line the fact someone when 100 yrs into the future coinsided with somthing it could not as it was not stated in the books. Or maybe the character just got it wrong and said, "Well I don't know this place sure looks like it could be 100 yrs into the future, lets go with that." The thing is with out a set time for time travel divices its hard to judge where you go, or should I say when. This is why I never like Time travel in the story because it usually, unless the story is just about time travel(ie Back to the Future), messes up how things go. I'm confused as to if Fistandantalas even existed anymore or if it was Raist the whole time according to the books. I havn't read "Legends" for the time travel reason. All I can say for sure is Jamie Chambers, Cam Banks, Maragret Wies, and everyone else who work on these books for you, work thier
The fine people at Sov. Press do this for a living and I don't doubt for a second that they pour thier heart and soul and all thier time into creating these books. In this industry you can't, because your work suffers, and then your with out a job. This is about making you happy with yourself and the world you play in. I know for a fact that some of them play D&D and I'm sure its on Krynn. So why would they make somthing that is inadaqute to the world they themselves play in? Lucas has no more care for Star Wars, he has said that he doesn't care to make more movies, that is why it suffered, Dragon Lance doesn't suffer and its because its writers care about the world of Krynn and the heros within.
Thanks DmJoe,
GCS
Well, most of my Anti-Dragonlance sentiments I have expressed come from seeing things I loved about DragonLance getting butchered. For example, I thought the entire Steel Brightblade/Knights of Takhisis storyline to be 'stupid', and as some one whom loved the Orders of High Sorcery so much that he integrated it to fit into the Marvel Super Hero RPG of the Late 80's because I thought it was Krynn's most unique thing, I was appalled to see it sacrificed for the 5th Age stuff, which really turned me off to it.
Still, yes, I do love DragonLance, especially almost everything ever set before the Cataclysm, which has so much depth is it almost unbelievable.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
Well, most of my Anti-Dragonlance sentiments I have expressed come from seeing things I loved about DragonLance getting butchered. For example, I thought the entire Steel Brightblade/Knights of Takhisis storyline to be 'stupid', and as some one whom loved the Orders of High Sorcery so much that he integrated it to fit into the Marvel Super Hero RPG of the Late 80's because I thought it was Krynn's most unique thing, I was appalled to see it sacrificed for the 5th Age stuff, which really turned me off to it.
Still, yes, I do love DragonLance, especially almost everything ever set before the Cataclysm, which has so much depth is it almost unbelievable. [/b]
I somewhat agree with the Steel thing it angered me but at the same time it made for an awesome story arch. That is also why I'm not a big 5th age fan with the dissolution of the ToHS and Conclave I feel they massively shrank down on the best part of DL. But it just wasn't fair to say they didn't do thier research, since I have started posting on here Cam and Jamie have become good friends of mine, and it angers me to see people say bad things about my friends so I am sorry if I was a little rude to you. Its good to see that we do see eye to eye on most things, but getting frustrated over a timeline and saying people do bad work over that is a little extreme, atleast they didn't say that Tanis was a wizard and midichlorians are what made him betray his friends. Or that Raist golden skin was just a rash, or that Raist and Caramon weren't really brothers it was Caramon and Sturm (see Obi-Wan and Owen Lars were supposed to have been brother till lucas.... ****ed that up) So I can deal with a time line issue. It might be because I've seen somthing so beloved completely destroyed some small changes don't affect me as much any more.
GCS
Originally posted by Green_Cloaked_Sorcerer
I somewhat agree with the Steel thing it angered me but at the same time it made for an awesome story arch. That is also why I'm not a big 5th age fan with the dissolution of the ToHS and Conclave I feel they massively shrank down on the best part of DL. But it just wasn't fair to say they didn't do thier research, since I have started posting on here Cam and Jamie have become good friends of mine, and it angers me to see people say bad things about my friends so I am sorry if I was a little rude to you. Its good to see that we do see eye to eye on most things, but getting frustrated over a timeline and saying people do bad work over that is a little extreme, atleast they didn't say that Tanis was a wizard and midichlorians are what made him betray his friends. Or that Raist golden skin was just a rash, or that Raist and Caramon weren't really brothers it was Caramon and Sturm (see Obi-Wan and Owen Lars were supposed to have been brother till lucas.... ****ed that up) So I can deal with a time line issue. It might be because I've seen somthing so beloved completely destroyed some small changes don't affect me as much any more.
GCS
Well, you do have a point. I was not attacking the 'research' of them on the 5th Age Stuff. Obviously, I would have no position to comment since I have read very little in it, and was just turned off that the Orders of Magic were disbanded. That alone turned me off to the 5th Age. It would have made more sense to have the Gods of Magic remain on Krynn even while the others left, but to still have this new magic come to Krynn at the same time. As far as Steel and the Knights of Takhisis went, I just thought it was a bad idea. I also hated seeing other things happened.
I mean, I loved the Knights of Solamnia, the High Clerists Tower, the seperation of good and evil and the Conclave of Magic and by the end of SUMMERS FLAME, all of them had fallen and I was like "Great, they just killed everything I loved about DragonLance" and aside from getting books set before the Next Generation was revlealed, I have not really gone back to the newer books since.
As far as all you said about SW and Kenobi and Lars go, yeah, I agree totally. It was like messing up a wet dream or if Peter Jackson had somehow butchered the LORD OF THE RINGs. It was inconcievable that anyone could screw up the SW Saga back in 1997 based on my own vision of the SW Universe, but lets take our hat's off to GL....he did it!! He had something that could have been on the same level as LOTR that would have been masterpieces and made the entire SW Saga greater, and instead gave us the twisted abomination of movies called the SW PREQUELS that have us wanting to forget they were even made.
Originally posted by Green_Cloaked_Sorcerer
(see Obi-Wan and Owen Lars were supposed to have been brother till lucas.... ****ed that up)
Only according to the novelization, and it's been clear that while those are a step or two above most licensed materials, they don't bind Lucas.
Of course, I actually like the prequels, so my opinion isn't worth much.
Matthew L. Martin, not a true Star Wars, Ravenloft, or Dragonlance fan.
Originally posted by Matthew L. Martin
Of course, I actually like the prequels, so my opinion isn't worth much.
I like the second prequel, Attack of the Clones. The lightsaber fight coreography is much better, and I beleive the writing and the acting is about the same. I didn't watch it as a kid, so I'm not pumped full of nostalgia about them.
Seemingly the complaint about the second one was that the romance between Anakin and Padme was rather creepy and obsessive. Frankly I don't mind that given that the participants are a future Dark Lord of the Sith, and a person who has been starved for any sort of romantic affection since the age of 12.
It works for me. ;)
But C-3PO was annoying at the end. Too many puns, and we're left wondering why he was picked up on Tattooine.
Originally posted by Matthew L. Martin
Only according to the novelization, and it's been clear that while those are a step or two above most licensed materials, they don't bind Lucas.
Of course, I actually like the prequels, so my opinion isn't worth much.
Matthew L. Martin, not a true Star Wars, Ravenloft, or Dragonlance fan.
I remember when the EU Star Wars material first started coming out they sometimes came with a sort of disclaimer that any of the stories told would be considered "canon" unless (or until) contradicted by something George Lucas produced (I read it on one of the "Dark Empire" graphic novels, iirc). This would be particularly true for events that happened before the original trilogy, such as Anakin's story and the clone wars. So I always felt that there was an understanding between Lucas and the EU writers that anything they wrote ran the risk of being invalidated somewhere down the line.
I kinda adapt the same attitude toward Dragonlance, where Weis and Hickman are concerned (or toward Greyhawk, where Gary Gygax is concerned) although neither of them have the absolute control over the property like George Lucas does with Star Wars, I (by default) take the original authors' word as "true canon".
As an aside, like you, I don't really mind the prequels. They have their problems, but similar problems pretty much existed in the original trilogy as well. People who complain about how silly "Attack of the Clones" is as a title tend to forget how "The Empire Strikes Back" is even sillier. Or how simplistic the dialogue was in Star Wars, or how out of left field the whole "Leia is my sister" thing was. We just didn't mind too much back then. Nowadays we like to think of ourselves as sophisticated movie-goers and sometimes this gets in the way of just sitting back and enjoying these often silly movies that don't have the benefit of nostalgia to blind us to their "faults".
That said, I still prefer SW and EST over the two prequels. ;)
Relax, take a deep breath, it's ok. It's not like we're talking about changing Tanis into a half-orc or something. So timelines are off by a few years. Whoopdie-doo. If the author of DL says Soth didn't go to Ravenloft, I'd stick with the author's interpretation. After all, the author created the world. Unfortuneately, the company that owns the work can do whatever it pleases and if it wants Soth to go to Ravenloft, then too bad so sad - he's gone. But I won't lose any sleep if the author says it didn't happen. If a novel had been put out where Sturm was picked up by stormtroopers and taken to the Death Star where he fought the Emperor, would you hold that as canon? What if the original creator said that's a crock of bullpucky and the company had mangled the original storyline? Who would you listen to? I think true fans know the answer to that question...
I think that there are times where reading the books would have contributed to a better book. For example, I think Legend of Huma would have been better if it had taken into consideration the Forestmaster and the High Clerists Tower and such. Oh well.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
I agree. I forgot whose Signature it is that says "In order to maximize the Dragonlance experience, one needs to read a bunch of books and decide which parts to take in order to fi8nd out what is the best storyline."
That's Terry's disclaimer, which he put into place when some of us wondered why he was being selectively canonical about his posts. It's not a bad thing for one's own campaign, but it doesn't really help in broader discussions.
I think that there are times where reading the books would have contributed to a better book. For example, I think Legend of Huma would have been better if it had taken into consideration the Forestmaster and the High Clerists Tower and such. Oh well.
Such is the way of a series written by multiple authors. There are times when what one author feels is a great story or plot element is treated like an unimportant reference by another and it's glossed over or revised. This happens with most licensed properties, and is met with a lot of frustration by purists. Take a look at any major Marvel or DC comic book sometime. DC just erased thirty years of Doom Patrol continuity so a popular writer could start his own Doom Patrol series without worrying about "baggage."
Cheers,
Cam