Is it on the other side of the dune, rolling toward it's doom? Or are druids and preservers building up knew defenses and hanging in there?
Of course this doesn't have to be in any near future, but I'm just curious.
In the end, the good guys don't win, not because good is weak, but because there are no good guys on Athas,
I would just like your thoughts on how you see your Dark Sun campaign's future.
I see it on a downard spiral with no hope for return. The analogy I like to think of is that of a terminally ill patient at a hospital. Try as they may, the docters and nurses will not find a cure to help the patient, but they can at least ease the patient's suffering as much as they can until the end finally comes. Athas is terminal. I don't see it as just a matter of getting rid of the SKs and wiping out all the defilers; the damage has already been done. Athas' environment is ruined byond the ability of the planet to repair itself. The Forest Ridge shrinks daily as its precious jungle dries out. Packs of kreen hunters grow hungry as prey becomes more and more scarce in the wastes. Temperatures rise ever higher, eventually breaching the threshold of human tolerance.
In this way, I see only one 'cure' for Athas: Rajaat. A return to the Blue Age. A starting over for the wold.
So, how do I see my campaigns future? I see it at some point getting very, very wet.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I see it on a downard spiral with no hope for return. The analogy I like to think of is that of a terminally ill patient at a hospital. Try as they may, the docters and nurses will not find a cure to help the patient, but they can at least ease the patient's suffering as much as they can until the end finally comes. Athas is terminal. I don't see it as just a matter of getting rid of the SKs and wiping out all the defilers; the damage has already been done. Athas' environment is ruined byond the ability of the planet to repair itself. The Forest Ridge shrinks daily as its precious jungle dries out. Packs of kreen hunters grow hungry as prey becomes more and more scarce in the wastes. Temperatures rise ever higher, eventually breaching the threshold of human tolerance.
In this way, I see only one 'cure' for Athas: Rajaat. A return to the Blue Age. A starting over for the wold.
So, how do I see my campaigns future? I see it at some point getting very, very wet.
...and this is quite ironic.
The Rhulisti sacrificed themselves(by transforming into new races) for the beginning of a new world and now(future) those same races will have to sacrifice themselves(in a more genocid kind of way since they'll have to free rajaat to achive their goal) for a new wold: the second Blue age--Mindë would be pleased to recover her phisical form if only she could realise it.
Originally posted by Pennarin
Isn't this thread a ressurection of another one we had a few months back?
Probably but I wasn't there a few months back!
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
There is no future. The Kreen are coming. They have the water. The empire with the water wins. Run while you can. Run and hide. Slowly the will devour all.
Hehe! I read once about the concept of hydraulic empires: it can be generalized to the control of any ressource vital to life, but in this case it might be simply water. We could say that the Kreen Empire is, within its purview, a hydraulic empire.
Here's the encyclopedia link to the concept: Hydraulic Empire
A developed "hydraulic civilization" maintains control over its population by means of controlling the supply of water. According to Wittfogel's analysis, control over the vital resource of water gave rise to the emergence of social classes, and widespread specialization typical of centralized urban life, while it also gave the government power of life and death over its population; thus a particularly extreme despotism is typical of hydraulic empires - historically, many of these empires revered their rulers as gods.
Governments were extremely centralized, with no trace of an independent aristocracy - this is completely different to the decentralized feudalism which existed in medieval Europe. Though tribal societies had structures that were usually personal in nature, exercised by a patriarch over a tribal group related by various degrees of kinship. With hydraulic hierarchies, an impersonal government as a permanent institution was established. Popular revolution was impossible: a dynasty may die out or be overthrown by force, but the new regime would differ very little from the old one. Hydraulic empires were only ever destroyed by foreign conquerors.
Thus only barbarians from outside the boundaries of the Empire can break the cycle of control.
I know the Sumerians used to divert the water to the lower city-states in times of war.
I never pictured the Kreen as controlling the water, however, the given fact that there is more water there, they may grow to take over the Tyr region. More water means more bio-mass of life. By shear numbers and time, they could take over the Tyr region.
Could a SK or a group of SKs go into the Kreen home land and either conquer it or destroy its water source before it's too late?
Could a SK or a group of SKs go into the Kreen home land and either conquer it or destroy its water source before it's too late?
In the thri-kreen of athas adventure, it states that the kreen of the north, have no idea about magic. They find it amazing. It is the advantage against them in a large combat. Therefore, If and when any SK knows about the kreen empire and their intentions towards SK lands, they will have the large scale advantage in thier MASSIVE arcane abilities. Not to mention taking to fight to them will screw up they precious savannah lands with their defiling magics. The kreen may prove to be another resaon a couple of the SK will cooperate and smash the empire.
Mephboy
Originally posted by mephboy
In the thri-kreen of athas adventure, it states that the kreen of the north, have no idea about magic. They find it amazing. It is the advantage against them in a large combat. Therefore, If and when any SK knows about the kreen empire and their intentions towards SK lands, they will have the large scale advantage in thier MASSIVE arcane abilities. Not to mention taking to fight to them will screw up they precious savannah lands with their defiling magics. The kreen may prove to be another resaon a couple of the SK will cooperate and smash the empire.
Mephboy
Ahh yes, but the Zik-Chil, which have the ability to genetically modify members of the Kreen race (into Zik-Trin, which is one of the reasons I believe they are the decendants of the outcast Rhulisti Nature-Benders, a rogue group of life-shapers), they potentially have access to something that could be equal in power with magic, far older, and equally as misunderstood by the peoples in the Tyr region as Magic is by the Kreen.
And then there is the sheer numbers. The area shown of the Tohr-Kreen Empire on the map, is claimed in Thri-Kreen of Athas as but a "distant outpost" of the Empire. So, potentially, you could visualize that the Tohr-Kreen Empire spans areas concievably as large as 20 or even 40x that of the Tyr Region. And they tend to have higher populations (with more resources available for survival, and the basic concepts behind their insectoid culture). So, if the Kreen were to deal with the Sorcerer-Kings, I'm sure the Zik-Chil would solve the "Sorcerer-King" problem long before it becomes any serious threat.
I personally estimate, for my Dark Sun, that there's easily over 10 or 15 billion Kreen throughout the Tohr-Kreen Empire. And there's probably around 100 million or more Zik-Chil. They simply don't attack the Tablelands because of a two-fold situation. First, their genetic memory has decayed, and they have forgotten their initial, original purpose. And second - Kreen can't climb very well (as per the fluff for Dark Sun in the 2E books). The Great Rift is where the threat is possible, except there's still the problem if the swamps that are at the base of the cliffs, I believe.
I've run a campaign where the Kreen Empire attacked. My players had a lot of fun, but the rules had to be fudged to handle mass combat situations at the time, but even with a force from each of the City-States, and even Hamanu himself joining, they were still outnumbered 100:1 or so throughout the fight. There's only so much life-force that a Dragon-King can consume to cast spells from, and in the meantime, his army gets slaughtered. Didn't help that I play Hamanu as extremely reluctant to using his magic - but he still wiped out more than his fair share of Kreen personally.
Ahh yes, but the Zik-Chil, which have the ability to genetically modify members of the Kreen race (into Zik-Trin, which is one of the reasons I believe they are the decendants of the outcast Rhulisti Nature-Benders, a rogue group of life-shapers), they potentially have access to something that could be equal in power with magic, far older, and equally as misunderstood by the peoples in the Tyr region as Magic is by the Kreen.
That's cool. One of the things I was considering is that the rest of the planet is run by the Kreen. And the only reason they haven't come into the tablelands, is because of the natural barriers as well as they lack of need to. Now that they have an opening, through the Rift...I was thinking of using them as a VAST population. But I never really thought about the zik'chil idea, modifing so that kreen are resistant to magic (at least an elite group). Hmmm, new info to consider1 ;)
Mephboy
that there's easily over 10 or 15 billion Kreen throughout the Tohr-Kreen Empire
I really hope you mean million, not billion. Even with my own views of Athas being a much larger planet than Earth, I still doubt there is enough land undamaged by either the Clensing Wars or the climate changes since then to support twice as many kreen as our world supports humans. 10-15 million may even be pushing it. I'd gather on the lower order of several million, but I would also have far, far fewer zik-chil. Perhaps as few as a thousand throughout the empire.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I really hope you mean million, not billion. Even with my own views of Athas being a much larger planet than Earth, I still doubt there is enough land undamaged by either the Clensing Wars or the climate changes since then to support twice as many kreen as our world supports humans. 10-15 million may even be pushing it. I'd gather on the lower order of several million, but I would also have far, far fewer zik-chil. Perhaps as few as a thousand throughout the empire.
Umm.... I hate to tell you, but there's enough land in the state of texas for 6 billion people to live in decent-sized houses (by this, I mean, souses and plots of land the equivalent to what you'd find in a suburban location), and the rest of the country could be used to feed them all. We're just spread out, and people tend to congregate around rivers, lakes, and other water sources (for some odd reason). But the Earth quite easily has more than enough resources to support a population much greater than it currently is, despite the doomsayer flim-flam arguments against it. (and once again, I'm not interested in starting a religious argument with Evolutionists to the contrary - this is not the time nor the place).
I do, in fact, mean billions. Kreen are far more resiliant than Humans, and can live in a much larger range, especially since they have such a limited necessity for water (what, 1 gallon per week? They can get that from their food!). Athas can still be, as I have for my Dark Sun, the size of Mars. Remember, we're talking about a species with an extraordinarily short lifespan, that has multiple offspring in litters (or rather, clutches). Now, over about 10,000 years or more, at the rate which they would be breeding.... This is a race that pretty much would spread to cover a very vast amount of space on the planet, with an extreme population. By space, I'd say the Tohr-Kreen Empire probably dominate.... 1/3 of the world's surface - potentially everything that is below the Jagged Cliff level (of the Jagged Cliffs are, as I've considered once or twice, basically a continental shelf)
Originally posted by mephboy
That's cool. One of the things I was considering is that the rest of the planet is run by the Kreen. And the only reason they haven't come into the tablelands, is because of the natural barriers as well as they lack of need to. Now that they have an opening, through the Rift...I was thinking of using them as a VAST population. But I never really thought about the zik'chil idea, modifing so that kreen are resistant to magic (at least an elite group). Hmmm, new info to consider1 ;)
Mephboy
I like to think theyve taken over the ocean basins. Of course, I also like to think that there's large lake-like (or sea-like) bodies of water dotting throughout their Empire, which constitute the very last of the Oceans in the world. But I also like to think that the Jagged Cliffs are a continental shelf, and there's definitely the possiblities of multiple continents scattered around the surface, each unattainable by the Tohr-Kreen.
(and once again, I'm not interested in starting a religious argument with Evolutionists to the contrary - this is not the time nor the place).
Your right, its not the place for it. So why even bring it up, especially since it has absolutely zero relevance to the discussion at hand?
Either the planet will be invaded by the Tohr-Kreen, by undead or it will simply die out from its cancer.
Don't you think there would be a slim chance (without resorting to Rajaat's ways) to bring Athas to better days. I mean, there are still people trying, the Pyreen, for instance. We seem to forget the elemental planes... surly, they could contribute a little matter to help the planet (after they stop fighting a pointless war nobody can win). What about the spirits of the land, don't they feel threatened? Why don't they fight back when attacked?
Oh well, I guess this is just like Earth and not enough people can work together to make a difference!
Doesn't that make you wonder why Athas was created in the first place...
Have a nice day!:D
Either the planet will be invaded by the Tohr-Kreen, by undead or it will simply die out from its cancer
Yup.
Don't you think there would be a slim chance (without resorting to Rajaat's ways) to bring Athas to better days
Nope.
I mean, there are still people trying, the Pyreen, for instance.
They'll all be dead soon enough.
We seem to forget the elemental planes
Them too.
What about the spirits of the land
Saving them for last.
Doesn't that make you wonder why Athas was created in the first place...
Yes, it does. Okay, I know, I'm a bit harsh with my Athasian campaign. But not all games I've GMed or played in were like this. There's always other games that deal so much with heroes out to save the day, rescue the princess, fight off the evil hordes, vanquish the demon, bring light and hope to the oppressed masses, etc, etc. And for some of them, that's exactly how they should be. Heroism, fighting the good fight, and winning in the end. Good triumphing over evil. With Athas, I prefer to run with a different theme. Its not about the long term goal of making the world a better place, since that isn't very likely to happen. Instead, I run themes that deal with the here and now, the immediate goals. Making today better, since you'll likely be dead tomorrow. The victories acheived are more personal and a little less epic in grandeur. Impermanence is another big theme. You can save a village from the evil hordes, but it will probably be wiped out by a sandstorm next week. Its not just seizing the day, but doing a frontal assualt, kicking the crap out of it, and not even standing around the watch it bleed to death. I could juxtapose other themes into it, but that would make it feel more like Dragonlance in the desert, or Forgotten Realms with cannibal halflings to me. For me, Athas was created to be more than just an exotic setting for the same kinds of adventures that I can run in a thousand other settings. Most of the adventures and campaigns I've ran in DS would never be able to port over other settings, it just wouldn't feel right. If you knew beyond doubt that the world was going to end in a few years, what would you do? Same thing my players do probably.
I also have an idea that the grey was actually formed from the death-throes of an anchient pantheon of gods (think of the grey as the smoke left behind by exploding gods).
Sometime in the distant future, a SK channels the grey into the appropiate vessel, and the first Athasian 'new' god is born. Evil. Hungry.
Enter the elmentals. The four Lords merge, giving rise the the second new god, and a battle ensures....
Athas doesn't survive.
As for the other idea's floated, i think Rajaat might havea comeback sometime in there, i think the kreen will try and win, but at the end of the day they will just wind up chomping on each other (as rival ant colonies are prone to do on occassion) so no, i don't think they are a real threat.
As for the undead, yeah they are a threat, but a managble one. The real threats are:
a. the uber-powerful beings, or...
b. a united cause that unites a significant part of the sentient population or...
c. natural disaster (the messenger hits returns, striking athas and causing something akin to a nuke winter)
d. outside intervention (elementals, uber-gods, lower-planes being etc etc)
Jaanos
a. the uber-powerful beings, or...
b. a united cause that unites a significant part of the sentient population or...
c. natural disaster (the messenger hits returns, striking athas and causing something akin to a nuke winter)
d. outside intervention (elementals, uber-gods, lower-planes being etc etc)
You forgot Giant Space Hamsters eating the world!!!
Mephboy
Originally posted by The PeaceBringer
Well, coming back to the discussion, you people have a pretty bleak view about what's in store for the planet...
Well, that's because it's a pretty bleak world.
Either the planet will be invaded by the Tohr-Kreen, by undead or it will simply die out from its cancer.
Don't you think there would be a slim chance (without resorting to Rajaat's ways) to bring Athas to better days.
Well, this leads to situation #4 which I've considered - Rhulisti invaders. Using the "Space Halfling" concept that was being developed by the people working on Dark Sun in TSR, only taking the Yuusong Vong from Star Wars, and having some of them find Athas - which turns out to be their original homeworld. They plan on terraforming the world to suit their needs, and pretty much could care less about the inhabitants upon it currently.
I mean, there are still people trying, the Pyreen, for instance. We seem to forget the elemental planes... surly, they could contribute a little matter to help the planet (after they stop fighting a pointless war nobody can win). What about the spirits of the land, don't they feel threatened? Why don't they fight back when attacked?
a) Pyreen usually seem to prefer remaining on the outside looking in, and not being directly involved with problems.
b) The Elemental Planes *are* trying their hardest to restore Athas. The problem is the Paraelemental Planes have gained a lot of power, and are fighting to each become extremely powerful, rather than keep the balance.
c) Spirits of the Land are connected to the Elemental Planes - they too have their power waning in this age. Plus, they are connected to the Pyreen, and are limited in range - but I usually do have them retaliate against direct attacks, with sending Druids or other allies to deal with it.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
despite the doomsayer flim-flam arguments against it. (and once again, I'm not interested in starting a religious argument with Evolutionists to the contrary - this is not the time nor the place).
Then it also isn't the time or the place for you to advance your socio-political platform either, not to mention, if you don't want to discuss the issue, you shouldn't use it as support for your arguments.
Otherwise, this is simply you expecting everyone to let you have your (unjudged) say about the issue, while villifying any sort of rebuttal/discussion of the same issue as off-topic, and further, allowing you to get out an insult with your offensive portrayal of opposing viewpoints ("doomsayer flim-flam") without consequence. Well, I'm sorry, but this wasn't the time or the place for that, either and it should have gone unsaid.
Now, note that the following isn't merely a response to your argument about population sustainability, but is related to the probability and logistic problems of creating a society comprised of 10-15 billion thri-kreen.
Umm.... I hate to tell you, but there's enough land in the state of texas for 6 billion people to live in decent-sized houses (by this, I mean, souses and plots of land the equivalent to what you'd find in a suburban location), and the rest of the country could be used to feed them all...But the Earth quite easily has more than enough resources to support a population much greater than it currently is
3.6 billion people (over half the world's current population) are barely getting enough to eat with more than 1 billion of them living in total abject poverty. Somewhere between 10 and 30 million children die every year of starvation and starvation related diseases.
Why? Since 1984, grain output per person has fallen on average by .6 percent per year. The world-wide per capita grain output was 755 pounds in 1984, and declined to 695 pounds by 1998, this is an 8 percent decline from the peak in 1984. The slower growth in world grain harvest is due to the lack of new land, and slower growth in irrigation and fertilizer use. Irrigated area per person, after expanding by 30 percent from 1950 until 1978, has declined by 4 percent -- because the total is being split by a larger population.
The vast majority of Earth's land is not usable or suitable for either farming or habitation, and the development costs to try and turn it suitable would be taxing. In those areas that are suitable for either, expansion into those areas brings up the serious problems of deforestation and the destruction of wildlife habitats and the attendant wildlife. Both are necessary to continued survival of Earth's ecosystems and hence the survival of our own food production.
The worldwide Fish Catch peaked in 1989 at 100 million metric tons. Since 1989, the seafood catch per person has fallen by 2 percent per year. Marine biologists at the Food and Agriculture Organization report that all 17 of the major oceanic fisheries are being fished at or beyond capacity. Nine are in a state of collapse.
Since the amount of fresh water available for human consumption is constant, as population grows, the supply of fresh water per person declines; today, nearly half a billion people around the world face water shortages. Note that most of this "fresh" water is from heavily polluted rivers and wells, which are polluted because of high population concentrations, with the attendant supporting industries being another large cause of pollution in modernized countries.
It is a fact that we have passed our sustainable limits for both of our major food energy sources -- grains and fish -- as well as very quickly reaching our fresh water limits. There are not enough fossil fuels to sustain our current industry and lifestyles, and within fifty years the reserves we have (those we can reach and economically utilize) will be exhausted, severely limiting how well we will be able to continue to produce and distribute food and materials at the current or higher levels (as well as expand infrastructure to support a growing population).
Six billion individuals living in an area the size of Texas would be an engineering nightmare, as well as ecological and social. The pollution such a population density would cause is a major concern (consider just the waste output), as well as the taxation upon natural and human resources and energy. Packing that many individuals into a small area increases the threat of communicable diseases exponetially. Further, one natural disaster (such as a fire) or disease can seriously impact the total population, and destroy numerous important facilities.
I bring all the above up as evidence to show that we, with our advanced technology, are having trouble supporting "just" 6 billion people. We can do it because we have a high-speed global transportation and communication system in place, along with advanced farming and food-gathering/processing techniques. What do the thri-kreen have? Would thri-Kreen society even have the technological level capable of supporting that many individuals?
So, from where I'm sitting, a society of 10-15 billion Thri-Kreen is unsupportably high. Even with their limited water consumption, the space requirements alone would be incredibly difficult to deal with socially. Pandemic diseases, social problems, pollution, etc. to say nothing of the scarcity of resources on Athas as compared to Earth -- resources that would be necessary in order to maintain and expand the society's infrastructure. How do they transport materials for building? How do they handle food production and distribution? What about waste removal?
From what I recall, thri-kreen are hunters, not farmers. How much livestock can they raise? Livestock/prey take up large amounts of land per head. Even if they are farmers, where's all the water they would need to support fields and crops at the necessary levels? Or the water for their prey/livestock?
Of course, this leads me to an idea: perhaps the thri-kreen invasion is being pushed by population growth. This is, of course, one of the major reasons for war historically (alongside the control of resources). Like locusts who have consumed all the resources left in the far west, the thri-kreen are now moving east in search of new resources to exploit.
Actually, this brings up a pretty cool idea: the kreen haven't been attacking the Tablelands because they've been in a long, drawn-out war of "population control" (eating each other). In the last few hundred years, their numbers have finally dropped, but food is still scarce in the Savannah. Where will they get more food....
as well as the taxation upon natural and human resources and energy.
Forget all that, it would tax my patience with humanity to no end! I could deal with the disease, and the polution, but having a few million neighbors with a stone's throw! Sheesh. I have a hard enough time in a small city.
Going back to the discussion, I am kind of an evolutionist and/or ecologist but I can understand that Athas is a fantasy world. Still, I would have to agree that too many Kreen in one place would be hard for its population and a reason for postponing invasion.
I like to think Athas can be saved... but not to the point where it is absolutely sure. I leave that to very ambitious players with a "I want to save the planet" bent. So really, I just want to keep a slim possibility open. How that can be done, I have no idea.
Anyways, peace on Earth, if not on Athas!
