And in response to the "it seems wrong to hunt down someone who does not want to risk their life, or those who were born with their talent" comment: tough. The rules are the rules. Follow them or be punished.
If you want to use magic, you have to use our operating system.
As for Sorcerers, it doesn't matter if they're born with the talent or not. They are blasphemous usurpers who will lead to another Cataclysm if not put in check.
The gods of magic gave us the Laws of High Sorcery to prevent mortals from having access to magic that is beyond their scope. People who disobey the laws are disobeying not one, not two, but three gods.
Magic is a gift. Those who would pervert it to their own childish whims are deserving of all the punishment that my order can dole out.
tl;dr - Follow our laws or pray that we don't find you. I may not be able to kill you within the confines of my alignment, but the Blackrobes can. And will. And will have fun doing it. Then reanimate you just so they can kill your blasphemous form again and again.
-TRRW, Renegade Hunter
I should add in my opinion, that there is a difference between a Sorcerer and a Renegade. A Sorcerer's magic is innate, within energy, whereas a REnegade is taking the teachings of the Conclave of Magic and drawing upon the power of the Moons of Krynn to do what they must. That is where becomes a renegade. It is OK to use Hedge Magic or stuff, but when you draw upon Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari, you must do it by the measures prescribed by the three.
They only make people who are after the serious magical power, take the Test. Those willing to devote their lives to their Art, take the Test, to prove their dedication to Magic. I'm sure there's a certain amount of pride and respect that goes to someone who's taken The Test, its not exactly easy.
Renegades are sometimes dangerous people, especially left unchecked. The WoHS, have a god given duty, to protect magic, sometimes this means convincing a Renegade to join the order, sometimes other methods and at one point it meant destroying Towers of High Sorcery. They do what it takes to keep magic safe.
Dabblers though, are generally quite safe.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
I should add in my opinion, that there is a difference between a Sorcerer and a Renegade. A Sorcerer's magic is innate, within energy, whereas a REnegade is taking the teachings of the Conclave of Magic and drawing upon the power of the Moons of Krynn to do what they must. That is where becomes a renegade. It is OK to use Hedge Magic or stuff, but when you draw upon Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari, you must do it by the measures prescribed by the three.
Sorcerers use a kind of magic of which little is known, and therefore they cannot be allowed to roam freely...hence they are renegades.
Sorcerers use a kind of magic which originated from Chaos, and as such is seen as blasphemous to the gods of magic...therefore they are renegades.
So in my book they are renegades in every sense of the word.
As for renegade hunters, well they seem perfectly justified to me. As mentioned earlier in this thread they don´t necessarily kill the renegade at first sight. They will attempt to persuade the renegade, then threaten, then use force.
This is not so much a matter of free will as it is a matter of the awesom power that is magic. Without the rules governing the god-given magic history might repeat itself, which could prove VERY catastrophic. Would you want to be responsible for thousands of deaths (which, history has shown, can be the outcome) just so you can remain "free"? I didn´t think so...
Ravenmantle
This is why wizards are generally Lawful. Laws of Magic above all else. Good and evil are irrelivent.
It is OK to use Hedge Magic or stuff, but when you draw upon Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari, you must do it by the measures prescribed by the three.
Fraid not. Sorcerers are bypassing the checks and balances put in place by the gods of magic to prevent another chaotic surge of wild magic destroying 1/4 the known world.
Just by using wild sorcery, you are flaunting your own will over that of the gods, and as such, you are disregarding the Laws of Magic.
Free Will is all well and good, but you have to deal with the consequences of your choices.
Choose to take the Test: you may die.
Choose to not take the Test because it's "dangerous" and continue to practice magic: you *will* die. I have Blackrobes with lots of Evocation and Necromancy spells. They have itchy casting fingers.
The choice is your's, and your's alone. If you don't like our rules, tough. They're the rules. To change them, you have to work from the inside. So basically, to change them, you have to follow them until you're powerful enough to change them.
-TRRW, Renegade Hunter
Are they Renegades from the point of view of the Wizards within the DragonLance world? yes.
Yes.. why would you want to use sorcery and destroy 1/4 of the world. Use wizardry or High Sorcery like wizards and destroy the whole world. Become powerful enough, the Conclave can't do anything to you, challenge a goddess and then become a god and destroy the rest of the gods and the world. Well, people can always hope there will be another kender along to stop this kind of thing.
This has been talked about a little on the other thread about Wild Magic. Sorcery hasn't been proven to be any more detrimental to Krynn than wizardry. Its not the source that causes the problem, its the people who use it.
But as of right now, anyone who isn't a WoHS is considered a renegade. really doesn't mean a lot right now because there's way more sorcerors and renegades than WoHS.
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
Sorcerers use a kind of magic of which little is known, and therefore they cannot be allowed to roam freely...hence they are renegades.
So they are considered renegades just because they use a mgic which little is known about? Because the WOHS are afraid of them? Really, I thought that even the White Robes were above such behavior. Oh well, they are stuck in their ways. Heh, If I ever get to play in DL I might make an Anti-Renegade Hunter character.
Although High Sorcery is governed by rules, I doubt there are rules prohibiting ambition. This ambition is what drove Raist to challenge Takhisis herself. As long as magic is under control the WoHS can pretty much do as they like...
And there´s a reason that we haven´t seen any sorcery gone awry yet (except perhaps for the leveling of the Academy of Sorcery). The reason is that sorcery has been around for a mere 39 years, while High Sorcery´s been around a few thousand years...
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by Galeros
Because the WOHS are afraid of them?
No. It´s a matter of containment and research. Just like a person carrying an unkown virus. He´d be contained until the nature of the virus has been discovered.
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
No. It´s a matter of containment and research. Just like a person carrying an unkown virus. He´d be contained until the nature of the virus has been discovered.
Ravenmantle
So, If Sorcerors are deemed "safe" then would the WoHs stop trying to convert them to their ways?
Ravenmantle
Edit: To answer your question though, the answer is no. Sorcerers would still be seen as renegades. The virus-carrying individual was mentioned as a means of comparison.
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
There´s also the Soli/Luni/Nuitari factor to consider. They are the ring leaders when it comes to magic on Krynn. Even though they might know the boundaries of sorcery, it can still be a very powerful weapon if not controlled by a set of rules. So anyone not abiding by the rules set by these three gods of magic is considered a liability. Plus the two gentlemen and the lady very likely considers sorcery as blasphemy, an affront to their work throughout the millennia...this is not just a matter of mortals setting some rules because they think it´s cool...this subject touches on the rulers in the sky as well.
Ravenmantle
So just because it offends some god inncents are being forced to convert to something they do not wish to convert to? This really only reaffirms my thoughts about many deities.
Gods do not work by the same standards as mortals do...it appears that some of you guys think of deities as very powerful mortals created to serve the public. They´re not.
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
You have to remember that the gods of magic care about one thing only - and that´s magic. If safeguarding their creation means stepping on the toes of innocent mortals, then so be it.
Gods do not work by the same standards as mortals do...it appears that some of you guys think of deities as very powerful mortals created to serve the public. They´re not.
I do not think that. Like I have already said a bunch, I just think it is wrong to try to convert someone against their will. Doesnt matter who deos it, be they god or mortal.
It´s very important to remember where the Magic Three´s (Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari) loyalty lies. Magic! Not social and moral dilemmas.
Ravenmantle
There will always be people who find ways to bypass the system (Raistlin). The fact that mortals enforce the laws of magic automatically makes it flawed. This really doesn´t affect the subject of this thread very much...I´ve tried to argue for the justification of renegade hunters...and the justification IS there.
Ravenmantle
Edit: Once again I forget to answer the question asked...hmm must be getting tired. I refer to one of my earlier posts in which I mentioned the timeframe we´re looking at with regards to catastrophies caused by magic. High Sorcery has been around for millennia while primal sorcery (or wild magic) has existed in 39 years (at least in its current form).
Clerical magic has given us the Cataclysm. One of the most powerful moments in the world of Krynn. Do people get hunted for being clerics because theyc ould one day become so powerful they think they know better than gods, and end up with a world-wide cataclysm.
And as I've said before High Sorcery or wizardry has given us: Raistlin destroying the world (Tas going back in time changed this), dragonarmies being supported by Nuitari with his black robes who would have taken over the whole world and still caused many people to die (look at the ravages of the dragonarmy), Lorac used High Sorcery and look what he caused to Silvanesti (that wasnt a minor event, that was huge), Fistandilus, who destroyed many a dwarf and human and eventually had enough power to bypass the Conclave and seduce a soul while taking the Test, etc.
Its not the power that has been shown to be the problem. Its always the person who is using it. In the end, the moon gods want total control of arcane magic. Fine..so be it.. but just say that. Don't hint that sorcery can do some big thing that other sources of magic can also simulate.
Some logic as to why it is blasphemy would be nice. Is there an underlying reason to this?
Take the Wizard's Conclave Novel:
The gods of magic knew that, during the decades of their absence, foul sorceries had arisen among the mortals. This wild sorcery was an affront to true magic power, an abomination in the eyes of the gods.
So why are these sorceries so foul? Personally, I'd always thought of Black Wizardry as being foul, full of necromantic secrets, pain and death but beloved precisely because of that. Why is sorcery considered a foul thing?
Why is it an affront to true magic power? It looks pretty much the same to me, and if the explanations are true, sorcery and wizardry draw upon the same source of power.
Why is it an abomination in the eyes of the gods? Is it simply a matter of control? Is it simply because the moon gods will not accept the Age of Mortals?
Now I'm not exactly in the camp that cheerleads the 5th Age. I personally think that the Order of High Sorcery gives Krynn a distinctive flavour that sorcery takes away from, rather than adds to.
But I would like to have a little faith that things are being thought through a little. Considering not only the immediate implications, but the implications of what happens next after we make an assumption.
So why is sorcery blasphemy? Why is it foul? Why is it in opposition to High Sorcery, when before High Sorcery was opposed by its own good - evil - neutral axis, but all of magic beloved anyway? Why isn't wild sorcery beloved as magic, if it ultimately springs from the same source?
If it is wild magic that drives wizards to destruction and evil, does that mean that black robes are just goth wussies and weiners? If the gods consider wild magic blasphemy simply because they do not control it and get worship out of it, does that really make them guardians of arcane might or simply petty tyrants?
Troubling questions that don't really seem to be considered, and certainly weren't raised in the Wizard's Conclave novel.
Originally posted by True_Blue
And as I've said before High Sorcery or wizardry has given us: Raistlin destroying the world (Tas going back in time changed this), dragonarmies being supported by Nuitari with his black robes who would have taken over the whole world and still caused many people to die (look at the ravages of the dragonarmy), Lorac used High Sorcery and look what he caused to Silvanesti (that wasnt a minor event, that was huge), Fistandilus, who destroyed many a dwarf and human and eventually had enough power to bypass the Conclave and seduce a soul while taking the Test, etc.
Its not the power that has been shown to be the problem. Its always the person who is using it. In the end, the moon gods want total control of arcane magic. Fine..so be it.. but just say that. Don't hint that sorcery can do some big thing that other sources of magic can also simulate.
You can hardly blame Nuitari for the success of the Dragonarmies. The reason for their success was military might and genius. The killing was done by the grunts in the armies. Yes the Black Robes supported the Dragonarmies but that doesn´t translate into blaming them for the killings....
Lorac Caladon was not powerful enough to wield the Dragonorb. As I understand it he didn´t seek council with the WoHS before using it. If he had done so I´m sure they´d say NO!
Fistandantilus...well he was one of those able to bypass the system (as was Raist).
As I´ve said before the system isn´t flawless. But it does work towards a utopia in which magic is controlled...and this is where the renegade hunters comes in.
Is sorcery not responsible for major disasters? Just wait and see...it´ll have its moments of glory.
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by Galeros
Heh, I agree with a lot of what you said Ferratus.
That's nice, but please don't quote my entire message if you are just going to agree with it.
Please hit the edit button at the bottom of your message to remove the quote. Merci.
And it doesnt matter about Lorac. Yes he was taken over by the dragon orb, which was created from High Sorcery. Again it comes down to, its not exactly what these people did, they used wizardry or High Sorcery to do this all.
It doesnt matter that Raistlin or Fistandilus were able to bypass the system. They were using wizardry. As I've said before, in the end the growing theme for magic in Dragonlance is: If you are powerful enough the Conclave and moon gods can't do anything about it.
I agree with ferratus in a lot of ways. We need them to actually just come out and say what is bad about it and how it is worse than anything else that has happened from wizardry. It would be just easier if they just said: hey we are the magic gods and we want everyone to fall under our sway.
See I liked the WoHS. I see them as very unique and I dont even have a problem with them hunting down people who dont join their organization. Back in the day, I can see how they were worried bad things would happen. But now its been proven bad things can happen from other magic too (wizardry and clerical). Its time they come together and just say, we want everyone to only follow our rules. If you don't, we will convert you or kill you. But don't come out and just say very vaguley "um..dont use sorcery..uh..bad things.. could.. happen".
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
As I´ve said before the system isn´t flawless. But it does work towards a utopia in which magic is controlled...and this is where the renegade hunters comes in.
Is sorcery not responsible for major disasters? Just wait and see...it´ll have its moments of glory.
See I think there is a problem here. If the system is designed to keep wizards from losing control of their magic then...
1) Why not just invite wild sorcerers to join the conclave, but allow them to train and practice sorcery?
2) Why not just supervise the sorcery and lay the smackdown on the sorcerers who do lose control?
Why is it innately foul? Why is it innately dangerous? Why can't it be properly practiced and controlled?
Does sorcery drive people insane like Kalrakin? Does sorcery slip out of a sorcerers control once out of every twenty times like it did in the old Saga days? Does it cause people to gradually transform into a monstrous beast and be destroyed like Mongoose Publishing's "Chaos Magic" supplement?
Those are all things that would cause the wild sorcery to be looked upon with fear and horror. However, each of these things needs a rules system, which would throw a monkey wrench into the rules balance if you stick with the PHB sorcerer. For example, if you were to have a sorcerer have to roll a Spellcraft check to cast a spell, and have a mishap on a natural 1, that would make the PHB sorcerer really suck.
Originally posted by True_Blue
So Nuitari and the black robes are not responsible for anything the dragonarmies did? They explicitely helped them out. Whether they were the ones who actually killed people (and I believe they killed their share), they still were accomplices. And the dragonarmies did kill lots of people and cause destruction across Ansalon. They also were the ones to help make draconians.
And it doesnt matter about Lorac. Yes he was taken over by the dragon orb, which was created from High Sorcery. Again it comes down to, its not exactly what these people did, they used wizardry or High Sorcery to do this all.
It doesnt matter that Raistlin or Fistandilus were able to bypass the system. They were using wizardry. As I've said before, in the end the growing theme for magic in Dragonlance is: If you are powerful enough the Conclave and moon gods can't do anything about it.
I agree with ferratus in a lot of ways. We need them to actually just come out and say what is bad about it and how it is worse than anything else that has happened from wizardry. It would be just easier if they just said: hey we are the magic gods and we want everyone to fall under our sway.
So we should also blame the factory workers who built the German tanks used in WWII or the engineers who developed them? Of course not! They didn´t push any buttons or pull any leversm killing millions in the process. The crew manning the tanks did. The black robes helped the Dragonarmies. We can agree on that. But they weren´t in the front lines, slaughtering thousands. And their support of the Dragonarmies didn´t affect the magic. And that´s what´s important! The safekeeping of magic.
As for Lorac and Raist and Fistie...as I´ve said quite a few times now the system isn´t flawless. But the renegade hunters (still the subject of this topic) are there to ensure that the flaws remain at a minimun (by herding the sheep into the fold). Even though Raist and Fistie did some terrible things they didn´t jeopardize the High Sorcery. And that´s alpha omega for the WoHS! Moral concerns are not important when compared to magic.
Sorcery isn´t necessarily worse than wizardry and the gods know that. It´s an unknown source of magic, a new kid on the block who needs to know who´s calling the shots.
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by ferratus
1) Why not just invite wild sorcerers to join the conclave, but allow them to train and practice sorcery?
2) Why not just supervise the sorcery and lay the smackdown on the sorcerers who do lose control?
Why is it innately foul? Why is it innately dangerous? Why can't it be properly practiced and controlled?
1) It´s not as simple as that...the WoHS know very little about wild magic. As such they don´t know what they are allowing into their midst. Research is necessary before this can happen. Can this magic be controlled? But then letting them in might be a good way to research wild magic. Yes but at what cost? 39 years! That´s all the knowledge there is about wild magic.
2) Well why don´t they just try to enlist sorcerers to the ranks of the WoHS? There´s no harm in trying. The WoS are just a few months in the past. No-one has had a chance to really respond to the many changes. If they don´t suceed in converting the sorcerers to wizardry, then yes. Supervision might be the next logical step...we have ot remember the timeline here.
Sorcery probably could be controlled. Who knows? Again we are only a few months post-WoS...give people a chance to find out.
The renegade hunters are not after sorcerers exclusively. We have to remember that. They hunt down any wizard who practices magic without the support of the WoHS...
Ravenmantle
See I understand the system isnt flawless. My point being though, is that sorcery shouldnt be considered as having to be perfect either. One or two characters using sorcery "wrong" shouldnt be the example that sorcery is "bad for Krynn". On a side note I do think Raistlin jeopardized magic when he went to take on the world and won, thereby leaving nothing left in the whole world. Nodda, zilch, a wasteland. To me that jeapordizes magic.
The whole think with sorcery is that its an unknown or bad. As I've said before, I can understand if the moon gods are saying "we want you to only use high sorcery" and are trying to force people to do it. But its a plain myth that sorcery can cause worse things than High Sorcery or wizardry.
I say let them in. Let them keep their kind of magic and join the orders, or come out and say "screw it I dont care, we hunt anyone who doesnt use our system, our rules, because we believe we can regulate magic better". Just dont make up some bogus charge of how sorcery is bad for the world and wizardry is the clean, better, more safe version that cant have things go wrong like what they can in sorcery.
Originally posted by True_Blue
First of all, I dont exactly think that the analogy of factory workers and magicains is a good one.
I think a better analogy would be stealing the fetuses from pregnant women and using them to create mutant super-soldiers. A pretty evil thing to do.
Which is why the conclave cannot move against people who use magic for simply destructive or nefarious purposes. No a renegade has to be someone who deliberately breaks with the conclave or has proven himself unable to control the magic. It is not the destruction itself that is problematic, it is the destruction without purpose. Destruction that is not in service to the cause of good, evil or neutrality. Ariakus and Dracart were serving Takhisis and Nuitari.
So we all agree that both Sorcery and High Sorcery can be catastrophic. High Sorcery has generally been catastrophic when someone has broken ranks with the Conclave, or done something against their wishes (Raistlin, Lorac).
Therefore, Sorcery can be catastrophic if it slips out of control. The only way the Conclave can be justified in its actions is if Sorcery necessarily slips out of control. If Sorcery causes insanity in its mages, if it mishaps 1 out of every 20 times, or if it causes unseen but cumlative damage. Then sorcery should be rubbed out until there is only the occassional sorcerer left.
If however, a sorcerer can learn to handle sorcery safely (as it is just the PHB sorcerer), then the wizards (and their gods) are simply making a play for power or being paternalistic. But we really need to find out why sorcery is foul or dangerous.
WoHS were created because wild magic was too dangerous. So the Moon Gods created High Sorcery or wizardry to try to clean it up and keep things from being catastrophic. Yes there can be bad things that happen with wizardry, but it doesnt necessarily mean there will be.
Now with sorcery, if there will be problems with it, then that is a reason that sorcery needs to be stopped or culled. If when you use sorcery, the gods know for sure either insanity will happen, winds will sweep across Ansalon and destroy thousands, or something else catastrophic... then there is justification for the WoHS wanting to control sorcery.
I guess the key thing here is the question: "Will something automatically happen if sorcery is used" or "Well something bad could happen". If the former is true, than the WoHS are totally justified. If the latter is true, than they shouldnt have any reason to be able to hunt them as renegades, because bad things can happen with wizardry too to jeapordize the world and the magic.
But, as ferratus said, we need something that shows why sorcery is dangerous.
If Mishakal said that Mysticism was blasphemous and an affront to her, I'm pretty sure the clerics of Mishakal would try to convert said mystics. Failing that, find some way to contain or remove their powers.
We, being the Wizards of High Sorcery, are devout followers of our respective god of magic. They have all said it is blasphemous to practice Low Sorcery.
How would a Jewish person feel if someone walked into a synagogue and started sacrificing people on the altar to false god, all the while burning holy texts and lighting the building on fire?
How would a Christian person feel in the same situation?
How about a Muslim?
They came into our place of worship, defiled it, and started wrecking up the place. We have plenty of reason to dislike sorcery.
We're following the rules; sorcerers aren't.
Here's a nice little example.
Lets say that for a moment, Wizardry is called driving and wizards are called drivers. Drivers obey the traffic laws, follow speed limits, and whatnot. There is a chance that they could die taking the Driver's Test, but most don't because they follow the Rules of the Road.
Now, also existing in this world are Sorcerers. They don't follow the Rules of the Road, they drive on the wrong side of the road, they don't have the proper flashers or lights on their car, no license, no plates, no nothing. Yet they still want to drive on our roads.
They are disobeying the law, and as such, are usually arrested. We can't help that some of them die in Renegade Hunter custody. That's just how it is.
When Socerers learn to follow the Rules of the Road, they can take the Driver's Test. Remember, though, that one of the Rules of the Road handed down from the DoM (Deities of Magic) is that Sorcery is punishable by up to several consecutive life sentences and a 1,000,000 stl fine.
We want them to drive with us, we just want trained drivers. Just because you learned to "drive" back on the farm, doesn't mean you're ready to drive with the law abiding drivers on the Interstate of Wizardry. You have to take the Driver's Test like everybody else or deal with the consequences of driving without a license.
tl;dr - Don't drive without a license, you'll get arrested.
----------
The breakdown of the Renegade Hunters is like this: White Robes - 10%, Red Robes - 30%, Black Robes - 60%. That's probably why you see our methods as evil, because you can't get your head around the methods used by the other robes.
-TRRW, Renegade Hunter
Originally posted by True_Blue
First of all, I dont exactly think that the analogy of factory workers and magicains is a good one. I see where you are coming from. But they did explicitely help make draconians and I dont see this on par with people who make tanks. Also, I personally believe that the Black Robes werent just used as "people who are just there". I would assume they were used, but since there arent explicit examples I guess it doesnt matter. Yet, I do know a magic user who used wizardry who did contribute directly to the dragonarmy, Arakius. You could always go the route and say "in the modules he was a cleric", but in the novels he was a wizard who did take the test. Must have been sanctioned by the Conclave then. And thats wizardry.
I still think the analogy works just fine. But ok let´s move on from that analogy.
Yes Ariakas was a Black Robe. But it was not in this sense he proved his might. No he was a military genius, a political mastermind (necessary to keep so many different factions working in concert) and extremely evil, planning the strategies that would conquer the majority of Ansalon and being ruthless in the dealings with his enemies. This was not done by using his arcane talent. Yes he might have hurled the occasional fireball at the Whitestone forces, but that is not what made Ansalon fear him. So him being a Black Robe has little bearing on this discussion.
As for the creation of draconians, well I return to my analogy. The Black Robes helped create them (helping the Church of Takhisis). But they did not lead them into battle. They might have participated in the creation of the Citadels (and even piloted them) but they did not go forth from the Citadel on the backs of red dragons. They were the engineers of the Dragonmarmies (in a magical sense, so as not to confuse them with Kang and his brave lads), not the officers in charge of the kiling.
As for the magic wielded by them when in combat. Well fireballs and magic missiles have been used by WoHS of all three factions since the creation of the orders, so I don´t quite see why it issuddenly brought up as a weapon of mass destruction, responsible for killing thousands.
All these things happened within the rules of magic, and so they were OK´ed. We´re not discussing bodycount here but the "legalities" of the magic used.
And so there is still a justification for the renegade hunter. Maybe not in a moral sense (which is just one of many issues we deal with here), but in every other sense. Containment, control, supervision, justice, vengeance and so on and so forth.
Ravenmantle
Yes but driving is a privelage given by the state, from people who are appointed by the people. Where were the sorcerors at when the vote was taken to be able to govern all arcane magic?
And you don't think there wouldnt be a lot of wizards who would rebel at something like "We are the gods of magic, no there isn't any proof that sorcery does anything bad, but we say so..so well make sure they conform to our rules". Bah, a lot of decent people would say that this is wrong. This is persecution on people without evidence that they would be any problem.
If the WoHS want to hunt them down or force them to follow their laws, then they better use a better reason than "well, our god says its bad so we just blindly do what they say". Even most religious people have consciousess and would think about things handed down to them if they went against their moral beliefs. Granted there are a few zealots, but maybe I just have faith in people.
Also, clerics trying to convert mystics isnt the same as WoHS forcing sorcerors to convert. One involves choice.
Originally posted by True_Blue
Yes but driving is a privelage given by the state, from people who are appointed by the people. Where were the sorcerors at when the vote was taken to be able to govern all arcane magic?
Guys guys we have to remember the timeline here! We can´t even discuss the conflict between wizards and sorcerers yet. At the very least the discussion would very flawed. The WoHS have had but a few months to figure out how they should deal with wild magic. We all know that decisions take time, especially when done through democratic channels...so I suggest we cool down and wait a few years (Dragonlancian time) and see what happens. Or at least until the ToHS is released. That might give us some more ammo for this debate.
Lets instead concentrate on the subject. Why renegade hunter? Keep in mind that renegade hunters exist for many other reasons than hunting wild magic wielders.
Ravenmantle
I do believe that there is a need for renegade hunters. Whether the reason to hunt down renegades is good or not, the WoHS still use them. And that means they have a place. As I said before, I have no problem having WoHS hunt down people who they deem as renegades. I just disagree with the take on sorcery heh. I like the WoHS and its one of the main parts thats always drawn me to Dragonlance. The brotherhood of wizardry is unique and I like it.
As long as the WoHS see other arcane users as threats, there is a need for a renegade hunter.
Originally posted by True_Blue
I'm sure there will be conflict somewhere in there heh.
Hehe and we will relish it! Filling this place with countless debates (some hopefully rather heated)! Oh the wonders of Dragonlance!
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
As for the creation of draconians, well I return to my analogy. The Black Robes helped create them (helping the Church of Takhisis). But they did not lead them into battle. They might have participated in the creation of the Citadels (and even piloted them) but they did not go forth from the Citadel on the backs of red dragons. They were the engineers of the Dragonmarmies (in a magical sense, so as not to confuse them with Kang and his brave lads), not the officers in charge of the kiling.
No. The dragonarmy black robes slew people with magic, assisted the dragonarmies, commanded units, and everything else. In fact, the Highlord of the White Dragonarmy (slain by Laurana at Icewall) was a black robe as well.
The Black Robes are EVIL. They are not angsty goths who like to wear black and play vampire larps. They are ambitious, callous, ruthless, and serve the forces of darkness. If you don't get that, you don't get the point of the conclave being a gathering of the good, neutral, and evil wizards. It simply becomes a conclave of heroes keeping magic under control.
And so there is still a justification for the renegade hunter. Maybe not in a moral sense (which is just one of many issues we deal with here), but in every other sense. Containment, control, supervision, justice, vengeance and so on and so forth.
Other than the first poster, I don't think there is an argument about that. The argument is whether the conclave is justified in sending the renegade hunters against the sorcerers.
As for the renegade hunters hunting sorcerers, well can you give me a single reference to that in the novels? The game material?. No. That´s because of the timeframe! Remember the timeframe! This whole discussion about renegade hunters vs. sorcerers is without purpose! I say we press the "pause" button on this discussion until we get more information on how the WoHS intend to tackle wild magic.
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
At no point have I said that Black Robes are not evil. They are. And their magic cause much grief. But if you can find a single reference to a black robe leading troops in the War of the Lance that is fine (other than the obvious, which would be Ariakas and one of the other Highlords).
1) Black Robes are in the Inner Sanctums of Nereka and Sanction (Chronicles)
2) Par-Salin suspects the black robes are planning something and are on the move, obviously the War of the Lance.
3) All those black robe wizards that you kill in the original 14 Highlords.
The Black Robes were not just swept up in the War of the Lance. They were full partners and participants in it. Black Robes were on the battlefields, especially the War Wizards (for which we have a prestige class).
But until then I hold on to my claim that the black robes in no way ran the war. There were black robe ring leader but that was not in their function as wizards, but as military leaders. We have to stick to that! The Black Robes did not start the war, and they did not control it.
The Queen of Darkness started the war and controlled it, and the Black Robes were minions of the Queen of Darkness. She is the head of the pantheon of evil.
As for the renegade hunters hunting sorcerers, well can you give me a single reference to that in the novels?
No, but there doesn't seem to be any debate about the place of sorcery. It seems that the Gods of wizardry decided to oppose sorcery and declare it blasphemy on a whim.
There should be a logic as to why something is wrong, especially in the case of Solinari, from whom we expect better. Nuitari perhaps just wants the power, but what about the God of the White Moon?
No offense intended, but I think thats the worse argument yet. So sorcery is bad just because the gods of magic say its bad? Well thats nice. So if Chemosh says that elves are bad, its ok to hunt them down and kill them all? I guess for his worshipers its fine, but the rest of the world just doesn't automatically listen to everything a god says and think that its good for the world.
But don't you see? That's the entire point. No one is - or at least should be - trying to say that the view of the WoHS is right on some sort of cosmic scale.
Plain and simple, they owe their allegiance to the three gods of magic. If the gods of magic say Sorcery is tainted, then to them, it genuinely is.
If Chemosh says to his followers that Elves needed to die, then to them, it genuinely is.
That having been said, no moral compass is needed in any way, shape, or form. If you are a devout Muslim in real life, you follow the religious precepts..sometimes they are questioned, but usually they're followed. Can you imagine how much more devout you'd be if your god physically would appear and make themselves known every now and then?
For the wizards, this is the right thing to do. Others can't say "This isn't fair, we don't agree, let's take a vote," because this is their area and the area of their gods. Others can oppose them, (which I think would make a great war), and that is that.
EDIT: Posted at the same time bud. :D
In answer to the last post, gods don't need logic. Ever. They are not high-leevl mortals...they are entities that we cannot even grasp the scope and breadth of. If you so insist, in-character, that some logic be presented, then you simply won't be worshiping that god.
Originally posted by ferratus
1) Black Robes are in the Inner Sanctums of Nereka and Sanction (Chronicles)
2) Par-Salin suspects the black robes are planning something and are on the move, obviously the War of the Lance.
3) All those black robe wizards that you kill in the original 14 Highlords.
The Black Robes were not just swept up in the War of the Lance. They were full partners and participants in it. Black Robes were on the battlefields, especially the War Wizards (for which we have a prestige class).
I give up...you may have read my posts but you obviously don´t understand them. I´ve never said the Black Robes were "swept up in the war". I am merely saying that the BCs were ONE of MANY branches within the evil that was the Dragonarmies! I am getting a wee bit tired of repeating myself when you don´t seem to be listening/reading/whatchamacallit...
The Black Robes were a part of the Dragonarmies! They did kill innocents! They did create weapons for the Dark Queen´s armies! I am well aware of that! But you cannot possibly say that they were the deciding factor! There are the dracos to consider, there are the thousands of mercenaries to consider, there are the thousands of goblinoids to consider, there are the dragons to consider, there are the Dragonarmy officers involved in the strategies and tactics to consider, there are the various clergies of the Evil pantheon to consider, there are the foolishness of individuals to consider (Lorac Caladon), there are the divided forces of good to consider. All these factors melded into a cauldron became what we know as the War of the Lance - not the Black Robes alone!
As for sorcery...TIMEFRAME!!!! The gods may have decided that sorcery is blasphemous, but come on! It´s been a few months! Give people (and gods!) time to adjust to this whole new world they find themselves in! Branding sorcery as blashphemy might very well just be a precaution on the gods´ side, ensuring that their Orders remain observant and vigilant towards it. We don´t know...
This is my last post in this thread. You can babble on about your Black Robes and your wanting some logic to it all...I think I´ve made my point...
Ravenmantle
My main point from this is whether mass amounts of people die from a wild magic surge or dragonarmies, it doesnt matter... they died. And I would almost choose a wild magic surge more than the famine, ****, pillage, and murder from the dragonarmies. And the dragonarmies used High Sorcery. So you can't use the theory "but sorcery can kill a mass amount of people" because so can High Sorcery. Also, remeber the other examples of Fistandilus, Raistlin, Lorac, etc.
What we are saying is that none of us care that the WoHS hunt down people who they consider renegades. I think that is perfectly acceptable. What we are arguing about is if they are just doing it. And right now their reason for hunting it down, and it has been stated, is that wild magic is dangerous and an abomination. What we want to know, is what makes it more dangerous or more of an abomination than wizardry, since the only thing we've seen so far from sorcery can easily happen from wizardry also.
Again, we all agree that the moon gods can tell their worshippers what to do and to hunt down renegades. Justs ome of us want to know what the danger is in sorcery that is so much different than can what happen from wizardry. This would ease our minds on the whole fact if we think the WoHS are justified or not. If they just want people to only use wizardry because they want total domination over arcane magic, again thats fine, just come out and say it. We just want the facts, thats all.
See if by using sorcery, something will automatically happen that is bad for krynn, or people go insane, etc.. than I cans ee hunting them down. But if the moon gods think that "well maybe something can happen" than that isnt a good reason because "something" can happen with High Sorcery also.
heh amazing how much can go on about magic =]
If you can't deal, tough crap. I'll be knocking on your door shortly.
-TRRW, Renegade Hunter
Originally posted by True_Blue
heh amazing how much can go on about magic =]
Oh, it's almost guaranteed to generate lengthy discussions.
Ravenmantle's comments about the timeframe are absolutely correct. Sorcery hasn't been used by mortals for very long at all, and for most of that time it was being limited artificially by Takhisis' army of souls. It's been active at its full strength for as much as 6 months. It was used by the elves in the years after the Greygem surges introduced it to mortals for some time before it escalated into the disasters wrought after the Second Dragon War. The gods of magic know this, and they aren't about to sit back and wait until its current practitioners repeat the mistakes of the past. Wild magic is a threat to their ordered magic, and its currently the dominant form of arcane magic on Krynn. I'd be worried if I were them, too.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by TheRedRobedWizard
All these arguements are irrelevent. Point is, if you want to practice Arcane Magic, you follow our rules. F*****g deal with it.
If you can't deal, tough crap. I'll be knocking on your door shortly.
-TRRW, Renegade Hunter
Fine. On one of my visions of Krynn, the gods never return after the Chaos War, and on the other (a reenvisioned WotL-era approach), there's really no such thing as a renegade--the Orders are considerably looser, and the Test is only required if you want to access the deeper secrets of magic.
Deal with that. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
(I'm probably going to regret this bit of silliness later, but I'm not in the mood to let this kind of stuff pass without comment.)
Originally posted by Matthew L. Martin
(I'm probably going to regret this bit of silliness later, but I'm not in the mood to let this kind of stuff pass without comment.)
I've seen much sillier, MLM. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
If nothing ever surfaces that shows that bad things are ineivetable when people use sorcery, then I hope sorcerors make their own organization. And they accept people on merit, not on the pretense that "all people should use our magic because ..um..something..well..could happen.."
I personally believe, and this isnt supposed to be inflammatory or mean, that some of the designers kind of just quickly wrote the backdrop for sorcery and didn't realize the problems that could come from it. I'm pretty sure eventually this stuff will be cleared up, but not because it was planned, but from the controversy that has come from it. I know they had to include sorcery in there, and not the SAGA version, so I understand there can be inconsistancies. We just need em cleared up with facts.
Originally posted by True_Blue
Again, all we want are cold hard facts.
It'd be nice to work with those, yes, but this is fiction, and cold hard anything is very hard to come across (unless it's steel in the gut of a foul goblin or something similar).
There's an appreciable difference in working on something which you have complete authorial control over, and working on something which is collaborative and can (and often does) change radically in the space of a few years. Sometimes, there's nothing specific planned for the future outside of a general idea. Sometimes, creators are waiting to see how something works before doing anything else. Dragons of Autumn Twilight was just such an experiment, which is why it ends on a relatively high note despite the ongoing war. In the case of sorcerers vs. wizards, you aren't going to get cold hard facts about it, because it's looking like something which can be made use of for some time. If it wasn't, Wizard's Conclave would have had a much more decisive ending.
Of course, I know a lot of people hate mystery and want those cold hard facts. I'm sure if the ability to give them existed, you'd have them. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Ashaman Nash
If Chemosh says to his followers that Elves needed to die, then to them, it genuinely is.
That having been said, no moral compass is needed in any way, shape, or form. If you are a devout Muslim in real life, you follow the religious precepts..sometimes they are questioned, but usually they're followed.
I think you are underestimating religious thought. Doctrines, taboos, and commandments have their underlying social and political reasoning behind them. They are not simply the arbitrary assertions, nor are they completely irrational. After all, if there was simply lock step following of religious precepts there would be no point for religious study and theology. The reasons why are just as important as the reasons.
Besides, I don't want to turn the Wizards of High Sorcery into a clerical order. Religious overtones or the idea of a mystery cult is fine, but they should be distinct from the Holy Order of the Stars. They should have ambitions of their own outside of their diety's, and more concerned with the art of magic than with serving the moon gods.
So myself and True Blue want to know why sorcery is foul or dangerous. We don't really have a stake in the direction of sorcery, since we aren't really dedicated 5th Age fans, but we would like to know why the story is progressing in the particular direction that it is.
Now people have said "we don't know yet what the consequences of magic will be". So is that the logic of the moon gods and wizards? Is that the reason for their immediate rejection of sorcery?
Or is it just because they think that you can't repeat the mistakes of the past, so the conclave's monopoly on sorcery is necessary. In that case, why is nobody considering just making sure sorcery is taught properly? Why is it immediately blasphemy?
I really really agree with ferratus about not wanting the WoHS being a clerical order, only having arcane magic. I remember awhile back when he first said it and agreed with it then. I actually miss there being clerics of the moon gods. In 2nd edition you had to be a wizard first, and then take levels in cleric. I still like that idea. Would even make a good idea for Dweormerkeepers (which is a prestige class wiz/cleric for clerics of mystara in FR) and even was revamped for 3.5 in a Complete Divine web enhancement. Would even be ok for Mystic Theurge (although I dont like the class and really dont use it).
I dunno, we do go in circles. I guess the only way to be for sure is to wait it out. And I truly do beleive now they will eventually clear this up and have sorcery do something. Just as I said before, it could be a year or two our time before this happens. Thats a long wait heh.
5th age just has become really funky. Never been a huge fan of it, but now its a mix of 4th and 5th age.. and this causes conflict and controversy. It happens. I understand conversion problems can occur. Just as I said, I like facts, not vague "secrets". But as cam said, we don't always get what we want. =]
Originally posted by True_Blue
But as cam said, we don't always get what we want. =]
But if you try sometimes, you just might find you get what you need!
Within a limited annual release schedule, of course.
Cheers,
Cam
White Robe hunter will try and talk the renegade into changing their ways, and or capture the foe if he doesn't see the "light". They will only kill as a last resort. Red robe renegade hunter will also try and convert the renegade, if that doesn't work they will attempt to capture the individual, but will kill the renegade as a 2nd resort to capture. Black robe renegade hunter will attempt convert the renegade to the black robes, and kill him/her if he refuses.
Instead of looking at something Bleakly you should think outside the box. Think of how each morally different person would handle the situration. The WoHS don't seek to destroy the renegades, but simply convert them, or imprison them. Only the renegades that either don't want to convert, or be captured are killed.
Originally posted by TheRedRobedWizard
Not all Renegade Hunters kill their quarry.
If you want to use magic, you have to use our operating system.
As for Sorcerers, it doesn't matter if they're born with the talent or not. They are blasphemous usurpers who will lead to another Cataclysm if not put in check.
-TRRW, Renegade Hunter
A more proper wording should be,
"If you want to use our magic, you have to use our operating system."
As sorcerers do not used Focused Magic or High Sorcery, as those Tower Wizards like to call it. They wield Wild Magic or Primal Magic which is the magic which is residual magic from creation or the world.
To your question though, Renegade Hunters are specialized in tracking down those wizards who go rogue (ie they were once Tower Wizards), those wizards who refuse to take the Test of High Sorcery, and those the Conclave deem unfit to wield any arcane magic at all (ie sorcerers)
Is it right? No, but that's where the Conclave would like to take things back to. Unfortunately right now they don't have the manpower to take on sorcerers at this point in their reformation. Yea, Go Team!!
It's O.K. to hunt down rogues and those who refuse to play by the rules set down by the Moons regarding focused magic. It's wrong to do it practioners of wild magic though. It violates ones "free will" which the Red Robes hold in such high regard.
As for Wild Magic wreaking havoc that remains to be seen. Sure there are stories in the past a of great storms caused by the Scions and the use of Wild Magic, but all those stories come from the Wizards. None of which has ever been confirmed by an outside source. Leaves you something to think about, don't it?
But that is the good thing about discussion here, everyone runs their world different and sees different things. Hopefully, people read over these kind of threads and we see results in future products.
Before the 5th age, I pretty much thought everything was very precise in the Dragonlance world. Maybe a glitch or two, but for the most part everything was seemed thought out and clear. Now in the 5th age, seems more and more questions are raised. I understand this happened when Dragonlance went through the things it did. I just like to clear up things when I can heh.
WoHS dislike sorcerers and renegades for the following reasons:
renegades- they use and flaunt the powers of the gods without any reverence or care for the source of those powers. This same dispassionate, almost callous disregard for the repect of these powers is what nearly destroyed the world in the past and what inspired the creation of the WoHS in the first place. Checks and balances.
sorcerers- their magic is drawn from the latent chaos energies left in the world as a direct result of the presence of the high god. Why should it be feared? It comes from the same being soley responsible for the creation of most of the offshoot races just because of his magic presence. (ie Kender, Dwarves, Gnomes, etc- there is a reason they are called the graygem races, and are forbidden to go back in time before their inception). That's evidence exhibit A. Exhibit B would be the Summer of Chaos. Chaos creatures and his magic flow through the world. The very existence of creatures is wiped from the memory of others when they fell in battle. Centaurs and other woodland creatures are twisted into foul mockeries of their former selves (the Skorenoi), the magic even affected other fey creatures indirectly (see the dryad from "Key of Destiny"). I could see the [i]source[\i] of sorcerous magic being a VERY BIG concern.
Raistlin when he sought to usurp Takhisis could really almost be considered a renegade at the time. If you remember, Par Salian and the rest of the conclave sent Dalamar as a spy because they feared he was doing something he shouldn't be doing. He was going outside the WoHS to pursue things he shouldn't. These were the acts of a renegade. The WoHS knew he had attained too much power for them to directly act against, heck, they all but openly admitted they were collectivley afraid of him, so they sent his brother to try and stop him in the hopes that the buried love Raist had for him would be enough to possibly sway Raist from his crazy plan. Raistlin's actions during this point in his life brand him more of a renegade than a WoHS, so using Raistlin as an example to bolster the argument against WoHS is really kinda self-defeating. Almost everything Raistlin did that endangered the world was while acting as a renegade. Following the precepts of the WoHS, he actually was the key to defeating Takhisis during the war of the lance.
Fistandantilus- He was a magic instructor that stole the life forces of some students here and there. It wasn't until his dealings with Raistlin that he truly did things that were globally bad. And even then, it was as a lich, and I don't think liches care one way or the other about where their magic comes from anymore.
Ariakas- he was a direct disciple of Takhisis while leading the dragonarmies. Characters can and oft time do switch sides or gods to fulfill their own ambitions. To site the Key of Destiny again, how about the betrayer? From Mishakal to Chemosh. Ariakas went from the gods of magic to Takhisis. If he's not considered a cleric at that point, and a wizard instead, he would most certainly be a renegade IMHO, since he willingly left the conclave to do what he wanted.
The wizards that helped create the dragonspawn IIRC, were much like Ariakas was. The conclave acted against them since they were doing wrong. I could be mistaken on this part though, I can't recall all the details over the years.
The renegade hunters look for potential problems and try to diffuse them before they get out of hand. Most of the orders try to coax a spellcaster to the WoHS, then they warn, then they use force (and then, only deadly force if it's warranted, or the renegade hunter is a black robe). The WoHS and their gods have enough evidence of the past to warrant concern over magic they don't directly control. What's more, no other organization exists to police the use of magic- at all. The sorcery school of Palin's was destroyed. That's it. Nothing else. Without the WoHS, you have people running around casting spells in utter chaos, causing the like.
Yeah, I kinda agree with the WoHS and their renegade hunters.
Not to mention the powers of the magic gods were starting to wane as well what with the prevalent presence of chaos magic aka sorcery...
Originally posted by True_Blue
Before the 5th age, I pretty much thought everything was very precise in the Dragonlance world. Maybe a glitch or two, but for the most part everything was seemed thought out and clear. Now in the 5th age, seems more and more questions are raised.
I bet the residents of Krynn would say a very similar thing.
The game reflects the situation on the ground - nobody, not even the Orders of High Sorcery, know how it's going to shake out.
The Lost Battles were when sorcerers using primal sorcery caused huge great landmasses to surge up and eat dragons as they went near the ground, winning whichever Dragon War it was, but causing such massive amounts of damage to the land and the people on it, that it was no real victory. The Gods of Magic, who at the time supported sorcery, were punished by the other gods, and were forced into moon form. Realising that sorcery was dangerous and could be held by irresponsible people who could do such things as make huge landmasses eat dragons and so on. They start to turn primal sorcery into High Sorcery type magic, removing access to primal sorcery from most races, but many (such as fey and dragons) can still access it - for some reason, these creatures never get too irresponsible - they either just coexist peacefully (tuatha dundarael from Defenders of Magic, for example) or are supposed to be big powerful things, and have other means of doing powerful stuff without focussing on sorcery (dragons).
Cut to the Chaos War, and at the end, Chaos is defeated and Takhisis steals the world. With the missing Moon gods, there is no more moon magic, and Chaos somehow releases the sanctions placed on primal sorcery. Then, the gods find their world again.
The Moon gods see primal sorcery as blasphemy because it goes against their sanctions, and has the danger of causing more destruction on the scale of the Lost Battles. They cannot put sanctions back in place, either because they don't have the power, or because Chaos is still mucking around somewhere. Sorcerers, as people who just have magic, and don't respect the moon gods (necessarily), are a threat to the controlled magic the Moon gods want and need. At the moment, the sheer number of sorcerers mean that they, as gods, are threatened - they were powerless to do anything in Wizard's Conclave because of all the sorcerers.
The fact that black robes and sorcerers can cause massive amounts of damage is irrelevant. Black robes do it with the intent of taking over, and encouraging evil, and therefore evil mages. Sorcerers causing massive destruction just cause deaths and chaos.
Renegade Hunters are necessary. Renegades endanger magic. They are irresponsible, have no love for magic - see it only as a tool. Whether they are White Robes hoping to convert people, or Red Robes hoping to contain people, or Black Robes hoping to slaughter, they all have the uniting cause - to serve and save magic.
Renegade Hunter's exsistance are an important the WOHS, and I agree with their mandate, so long as they are used to combat renegade wizards and sorcerers who are using their magic haphazardly. I see no problem with them policing magic, as it may be, but to force sorcerers to change to wizardry is wrong. Sorcerers are born with the innate ability to tap into primal magic and that will never change, even if they switch over to wizards. Then they are just learning to tap into a different source of magic not changing the source. Not only that, but as I stated above, it violates their Free Will to force them to do it, be locked away, banished, or put to death.
Originally posted by Koranith
Renegade Hunter's exsistance are an important the WOHS, and I agree with their mandate, so long as they are used to combat renegade wizards and sorcerers who are using their magic haphazardly. I see no problem with them policing magic, as it may be, but to force sorcerers to change to wizardry is wrong. Sorcerers are born with the innate ability to tap into primal magic and that will never change, even if they switch over to wizards. Then they are just learning to tap into a different source of magic not changing the source. Not only that, but as I stated above, it violates their Free Will to force them to do it, be locked away, banished, or put to death.
The history of sorcery and it's affects on the world in the past are enough for the WoHS and the magic gods to be concerned. Concerned enough to do whatever they can to brand it as a foul mockery of 'true' magic, to dissuade as many people as possible from using it, and preventing another magical catastrophe. I would think you would want to try and control a young, relatively inexperienced sorcerer before they get too powerful.
Remember, 2 things to keep in mind for the 5th age. The WoHS don't have the resources or sheer numbers to go around policing everyone. They may keep tabs on interesting individuals, but unless someone is going around causing mass chaos, or casting powerful spells, they most likely won't get too involved. The other thing to consider is as long as a character isn't casting powerful spells, the conclave most likely won't pay them much attention. A wizard who stumbles across a sorcerer may try to peer pressure them into becoming a WoHS, but that's about it. A renegade hunter is sent by the conclave in search of trouble makers, whether they are renegades or sorcerers, or whatever. Even then, the 'perp' gets a warning to stop causing problems or doing whatever it is they are doing wrong. It's not until like the third warning that the Renegade Hunters use force and/or lethal means. I would think if your a sorcerer, casting powerful spells that could harm yourself or those around you, and a wizard from an ancient organization warns you that you are doing things inherently dangerous with potential disastrous side-effects that you would dessist doing what you were doing. Failing to heed that warning is, well, call it what you will. Stubborness, cockiness, being blase, whatever. If you keep doing what your not supposed to, expect a hunter to come back to 'remind' you to stop.
Originally posted by Koranith
I see what you're saying, but that fact remains that primal sorcery never went away. It was always there, just forgotten. Much to the joy of the moons and WoHS. That's why dragons and fey creatures have always had access to it. Takhisis only reintroduced mortals to primal magic to recharge her batteries when she stole the world.
Actually, although the primal magic which is used by sorcerers never went away, access to it (in the form of wild magic) did. After some time, the energies of the Greygem (which were the energies of Chaos) faded, and mortals could no longer access magic in that form. They could access it in the form of high sorcery as wizards, but not as sorcerers.
Takhisis reintroduced it, yes, but only after Chaos had been released and his energies saturated the world again. Because the Greygem was split open instead of just bouncing around surging power into Krynn, the energy's influence is much more long-lasting and potentially permanent. Takhisis just showed them how to use it.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Koranith
Not only that, but as I stated above, it violates their Free Will to force them to do it, be locked away, banished, or put to death.
Laws are put into effect to protect people. WoHS laws even though might not be right. Still in their minds(WoHS) are protecting people, and magic in general. You break the law, and they are going to come for you. WoHS for all intent and purposes deals with all arcane usage. And part of that dealing is to keep an eye on all those that use it unlawfully as per the Laws handed down to them from the Gods of Magic.
We have Free Will as well. We have the Free Will to commit murder, theft, and ****. But those ACT are against the law, and after we are caught we will no longer have Free Will. Thats why the WoHS have Renegade Hunters to stop what they(WoHS) considers unlawful use of Arcane magic.
I guess I just find it amazing that it is ok to cause huge swaths of famine, ****, murder, taking over the world, destroying gods and eventually the world, but sheesh... if you use sorcery and it causes any of this that is so bad. Dead is dead. I think I would be more worried about people who do it on purpose, than people who do it on accident. And also this is a misconception, sorcery hasn't been shown to be wild at all. Sorcerors have control of their magic just as much as wizards do. You cant count the War of Souls because Takhisis was using the dead to leech the magic. But besides that, there hasnt been any mechanical difference between sorcery and wizardry, no matter how much people tout it as "wild magic". And yes I know its only been around for a few decades. I guess if you want to conquor the world, kill people, or cause mass amounts of damage, or destroy the world, you have to proclaim yourself evil and a black robe first, than its ok. I mean thats what they do right? So its cool. But if a sorceror kills some people, "oh my god its wild magic!"..We can't have that! I guess its kind of like a get out of jail free card if you go black robe.
The whole thing really comes down to one question, no matter what everyone thinks. Does sorcery automatically make something bad happen or is it just feared that it could. If the moon gods know that something will definately happen, than it makes sense that they would be concerned and outlaw them as renegades. But if they just think "well... maybe.. something.. could happen...", than that is bogus. "Something" could happen with High Sorcery too. Its a matter of knowing for sure. If all they think is that "sorcery could cause destruction", key word being could, than that is just ignorant since I've seen things happen with High Sorcery.
And now if they do know that somehing will happen from sorcery, as ferratus and I have said many times, we want to be informed what it is. This would justify them being scared about sorcery. If the WoHS just want to have a monopoly on arcane magic, come out and say it! Thats all we want. Not a vague notion of "there be danger...".
The few of us who have been talkin about this stuff havent once said we didnt see a reason for renegade hunters. The renegade hunters go after anyone who doesnt follow the WoHS rules, no matter what the rules are.
In terms of the WoHS laws, it doesn't matter what you are doing, as long as you're protecting and encouraging the use of magic, that's fine. Renegades, because of their lack of restrictions, lack of counsel, can do really bad things, that hurt magic as well.
Wizards are mages first, and this is what they must do. Inside a Tower, they are a combined force, who work closely together, regardless of personal morals, to shape and harness magic in new and fantastic ways.
Outside, the sorcerers care not at all, at least not necessarily. Any who exhibit signs of power is approached by WoHS, who attempt to convert them. If they refuse, they are warned, threatened, and then killed.
Outside the Towers, the WoHS are no more a group of like minded people than a large group of fighters are. A Black Robe threatening a village would cause anger in a White Robe, like an evil fighter threatening a village would cause anger in a Knight of Solamnia. Black Robes don't have a get out of jail free card - they can be hunted and killed by White Robes as much as a dark cleric, an evil fighter, or even a misguided peasant. They will not be hunted down by the Orders for being renegades, not unless they threaten magic, but that doesn't mean no one will try to stop them. It's two entirely different things.
See, thats fine if the WoHS want sorcerors to join their organization and theyw ant to be able to watch over them and make sure they fostor magic right. Again, I have no problem with the WoHS saying that they should have the monoploy on magic and they should run it all. Come out and say it.
My problem has always been when they say "bad things could come from sorcery". I, and some others, just have always wanted to know what those problems are. Its not enough to say something could happen, because something could happen with High Sorcery also. Raistlin would have destroyed the world, thereby destroying all of magic with it.
I just dont like it when the moon gods are justifying them wanting a monopoly on magic and being able to "make sure magic is used right" or "magic comes first" by saying that "sorcery is..uh dangerous.. and uh..could cause uh bad things". If it does tell us what they are.
If there is nothing concrete on what will happen for sure, than dont lie to us. Just say you want the monopoly.
Cheers,
Cam [/b]
I see your point of view, if Chaos is involved in the process, but I was under the belief that Chaos only amplified the effects of Primal Sorcery and not powered it. It stands to reason that Primal Sorcery never faded because you have the Scions in Taladas who are sorcerers (if I'm reading the limited info on Taladas correctly). They've been around well before the The Summer of Flame when Choas was released and the 5th Age when Takhisis reintorduced mortals to Primal Magic. Then there's the dragons and fey creatures who utilized Primal Sorcery as well before Chaos' release.
I don't want to sound argumentative, but the Chaos Theroy just doesn't add up in light of the Scions, Dragons, and fey creatures. But this is a topic for another board so I will take my case there.
Originally posted by Galeros
it has turned into something much bigger now
Heh you´re right...this is waaaay beyond renegade hunters! How did it ever get this far...?
Ravenmantle
My primary thought on the socery issue: Is the source of sorcery, primal or wild magic, of Krynn itself, like the Moons are the source for the Conclave? If so, will drawing that magic from the world itself do damage to Krynn in the long run? (This could be an interesting plot twist for events in Dragonlance)
Originally posted by Koranith
I see your point of view, if Chaos is involved in the process, but I was under the belief that Chaos only amplified the effects of Primal Sorcery and not powered it. It stands to reason that Primal Sorcery never faded because you have the Scions in Taladas who are sorcerers (if I'm reading the limited info on Taladas correctly). They've been around well before the The Summer of Flame when Choas was released and the 5th Age when Takhisis reintorduced mortals to Primal Magic. Then there's the dragons and fey creatures who utilized Primal Sorcery as well before Chaos' release.
The primal sorcery used by dragons and fey creatures isn't Chaos-influenced. They're not mortals, per se - they're magical creatures with the power to draw upon Krynn's primal magic of creation in ways that sorcerers don't. Scions, the golden-skinned dwarves in older game products, have moved beyond a mortal state as well, capable of considerable magical power even in the absence of Chaos. But outside of these beings, the energies of Chaos are required to amplify and alter primal magic's frequency (so to speak) so that it can be used as wild magic.
You might note that the gods of magic have no problem whatsoever with dragons casting spells. That's because they're in no danger of creating 100-year-long magical storms by losing control of their magic.
The concern the gods of magic have is simple - once before, when mortals had the time and the dedication to invest in the use of wild magic, their efforts led to widespread disaster on a massive scale. The wild magic that Chaos has energized into being from the planet's primordial magical power is saturating Krynn, and has many practitioners. Sooner or later, just as before, the gods of magic fear that they will bear witness to another loss of control. It is, in their eyes, inevitable, thus the threat from the sorcerers must be ended.
Are there any rules to represent this danger? No. Sorcerers are only capable of limited effects with their wild magic, although its nature allows them to use those effects with more flexibility and frequency that their wizard cousins. Will there be rules to cover the threat of wild magic? It's possible. Ultimately however, don't look to the game to explain the events in the novels. Wild magic is, at this stage in the conflict, a looming if not active threat. That's where it's at right now.
Cheers,
Cam
The character saves children, carries people over the fields of battle who are any robe along with even wounded enemy soldiers, but mercilessly destroys any powerful sorcerers he meets along with the consigning of all sorcery study books to flame (save for those copied and sent to the books of wizardry for study)
He's already started training apprentices in what he wants as a prestige class
"Inquisitor"
(Now the question-how tongue and cheek am I here?)
Lawful Evil Mages are likely to recruit renegades along with Lawful good mages while Chaotic ones are less likely to care or just kill them personally in my opinion.
Solinari advocates peaceful dialogue and coexistance.
Lunitari advocates cooperation and curiousity towards sorcerers.
Nuitari advocates their eventual destruction but is patient.
It makes sense. The quickest way to cause a magical catastrophe is to start a magical war.
Wipe them out! All of them!
could these views be temporary? It doesnt seem that even Solinari is postive towards the renegade sorcereers especially in light of Wizards Conclave>
They're temporary for as long as it takes the wizards to acquire substantial numbers, which may take a while. Make no mistake, sorcerers are seen as renegade arcane spellcasters, but the means by which their intent and motives are analyzed and dealt with can vary. A White Robe is more than likely going to attempt to convert a sorcerer, with a Black Robe making any attempt he can to eliminate them in a way that won't bring too much trouble knocking at his door.
Alternately, you could say that it's not a big problem in your campaign and ignore any potential conflict, thereby throwing one of the more meaningful issues in the post War of Souls setting out the window. As you like!
Cheers,
Cam
Make no mistake, sorcerers are seen as renegade arcane spellcasters, but the means by which their intent and motives are analyzed and dealt with can vary.
Okay, page 67. "She [Lunitari] is interested in learning more about the wild magic and on more than one occasion has appeared to a startled sorcerer, not to chastise him or try to convert him, but to pelt him with questions regarding the magic. Lunitari sees no harm in permitting sorcerers to continue with their use of wild magic, so long as they do not organize in emulation of the Tower Wizards".
"However Solinari rejects Nuitari's counsel that sorcery should be forcibly eradicated. Solinari advocates patience in the matter."
The attitude of these two Lunar dieties is to see what happens before jumping the gun and declaring holy war. They are not just biding their time until the Tower Wizards get enough people again. They are taking an intelligent approach to see how wild magic fits into this new world they find themselves in.
Sorcerers are not renegades, they are an unknown factor. There is a big difference.
But dont the gods of magic already know about wild sorcery? Isnt that the reason that the Orders of High Sorcery were founded, to combat it?
Yes, they do. They also dealt with them fairly well in the past, when the Orders were first founded, by bringing them in line with the "new magic" (High Sorcery) and allowing the practice of wild magic to fade just as Chaos' influence over it did. As with any renegade spellcaster, the Orders are most concerned with bringing them into line with their way of doing things, which is why the Thorn Knights remain a significant threat. Most sorcerers in the post-War of Souls era are independents, and can be dealt with over time once the Orders have time to get re-established. Any sorcerers that form groups and organize, such as the Gray Robes, don't give the Orders the luxury of patience.
Towers of High Sorcery presents a much more workable and logical solution to the problems inherent in this volatile time, by framing it in terms that most players and DMs can work with. Thus, you can put the issue off to the side, or focus on it more directly, and incorporate it however you like. There's not so much of the "DIE DIE DIE" thing going on as there is the "keep an eye on them, they're a risk factor."
Cheers,
Cam