From what I've read between the novels, old DL sourcebooks, and new DL sourcebooks, it is my assertion that Primal Magic, Wild Magic, or Sorcery is the residual magic left over from the creation of Krynn. Whereas Focused Magic, Moon Magic, or High Sorcery is magic granted (not filtered) by the 3 gods of magic.
It is also my assertion that Primal magic has never "gone away" or "faded away" due to the fact that the Scions from Taladas, dragons, and fey creatures have always utilized before, during, and after Chaos was captured. Primal magic merely fell into disuse among mortals because almost anyone could be taught High Sorcery while only certain individuals were born with the ability to use Primal Sorcery.
Then if that is the case, High Sorcery is not "true magic", but merely a divinely xeroxed form of Primal Socery that they allow mortals to use. Also then, sorcerers should fall under the purview of the WoHS but should be allowed to flourish and grow on their own or pass into oblivion as they did before.
Originally posted by Koranith
I search though the old threads for one that dealt with the issues of Primal magic vs. focused magic and the sources of each but was unable to find one that was started that way (many seem to end that way though). So here it is.
From what I've read between the novels, old DL sourcebooks, and new DL sourcebooks, it is my assertion that Primal Magic, Wild Magic, or Sorcery is the residual magic left over from the creation of Krynn. Whereas Focused Magic, Moon Magic, or High Sorcery is magic granted (not filtered) by the 3 gods of magic.
It is also my assertion that Primal magic has never "gone away" or "faded away" due to the fact that the Scions from Taladas, dragons, and fey creatures have always utilized before, during, and after Chaos was captured. Primal magic merely fell into disuse among mortals because almost anyone could be taught High Sorcery while only certain individuals were born with the ability to use Primal Sorcery.
Then if that is the case, High Sorcery is not "true magic", but merely a divinely xeroxed form of Primal Socery that they allow mortals to use. Also then, sorcerers should fall under the purview of the WoHS but should be allowed to flourish and grow on their own or pass into oblivion as they did before.
If that were the case, then wizards would have still been casting spells while the moon gods were away. Since this was not the case, then the magic WoHS use is generated by the moon gods themselves. Just like how clerics drew their powers from the gods in the formal pantheon. So, I have to disagree with you, High Sorcery is not Primal Sorcery.
As for what is Primal Sorcery, that is what we need to define. Is Primal Sorcery the magic residue of the high god, or is it the latent magic in the world of Krynn itself? It is possible that fey creatures, dragons and the like are innately magic, ie they don't 'draw' their magic from any source, whether it be the moon gods, chaos, the world or a shiny spork or whatever. Not all beings necessarily draw magic from a source. Does a medusa or basilisk draw magic for stone gaze attacks? Do beholders draw magic when their eyestalks cast spells (same kinds of spells as wizards, sorcerers, et all) No. Perhaps dragons and feys fall under this same category. They are innately magical.
This brings up another interesting question. What if Wild Sorcery/ Primal Sorcery/ Chaos Sorcery or whatever you want to call it was indeed around since the beginning of time, and not linked to the high god? Maybe characters had access to it in the past, and the use of that very power is what wrought so much damage in the past, and brought about the need for the WoHS. The moon gods may have blocked mortals access to the Primal Sorcery altogether, and just gave them magic derived directly from the gods (not redirected Primal Sorcery, but direct power from the moon gods). When the pantheon of the gods were missing for the 40 odd years, the blocks the moon gods put on Primal Sorcery were either weakened or lost entirely, and people found they could tap into that power again. The only flaw I find with that line of thinking is if that is the case, and the moon gods blocked that magic before, then why couldn't they do it again once the gods returned to Krynn? This makes me start to think that magic that Sorcerers use is something more than just power siphoned from the world of Krynn itself. This makes me think that the magic sorcerers use is granted by the residue of the high god. How else can we explain how powerful sorcery got in such a relatively short amount of time? And it had not been that strong in the recorded history of Krynn prior to the 5th age. The 5th age heralded by the temporary passing of the gods and more importantly, the most prominent presence of the high god in recorded history.
Just my musings. Until we see how sorcery and WoHS interact in upcoming novels and source books, it's all a matter of opinion more or less anyway. This is how I view it, and explain it in our group anyway.
Originally posted by Koranith
From what I've read between the novels, old DL sourcebooks, and new DL sourcebooks, it is my assertion that Primal Magic, Wild Magic, or Sorcery is the residual magic left over from the creation of Krynn. Whereas Focused Magic, Moon Magic, or High Sorcery is magic granted (not filtered) by the 3 gods of magic.
Primordial magic of the world + Chaos = wild magic.
Primordial magic of the world + Moons = wizard magic.
Primordial magic within souls + Chaos = mysticism.
Primordial magic within souls + Gods = clerics.
Ta dah!
There you go.
Cheers,
Cam
If Sorcerers get their powers from magical residue of the high god, then ANY tapping into that kind of power should be cause for concern. Particularly since it is a fairly new occurence in the world of Krynn, so no one knows what the long term effects of using that kind of magic are. We DO know that that magic created the greygem races, brought all kinds of nasty critters into the world from the Abyss, and twisted alot of races (Skorenoi for example)
If Sorcerers get their powers from a Primal source like the world itself, then we go back to what if the moon gods blocked mortals access to that kind of magic to prevent any magical catastrophes from happening again? If this is the case, and the gods did indeed block access to this form of magic as a safeguard, then to me at least, it would stand to reason that use of this type of magic should be discouraged as much as possible.
In either case, I would think that WoHS and Sorcerers will not get along well together. Sorcerers will probably live in relative ignorance, while WoHS will fear and/or despise sorcerers for their relative lack of discipline, or in their eyes, responsibility of their powers.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Primordial magic of the world + Chaos = wild magic.
Primordial magic of the world + Moons = wizard magic.
Primordial magic within souls + Chaos = mysticism.
Primordial magic within souls + Gods = clerics.
Ta dah!
There you go.
Cheers,
Cam
Yeah, I can go with that. Nice one Cam
As to Chaos being required for Primal Sorcery, as Cam states, to be just illogical due the fact that dragons and other creatures have always ultilized Primal Sorcery. Then there's the Scions of Taladas. Taladas doesn't have WoHS, never even heard of them there. As far as I can tell, there, they have only had Primal Sorcery, not High Sorcery. If Chaos is required for Primal Sorcery to work then how exactly were these people and creatures casting spells thoughout the Age of Despair?
Originally posted by Koranith
If Chaos is required for Primal Sorcery to work then how exactly were these people and creatures casting spells thoughout the Age of Despair?
They're using primal magic untainted by Chaos. They're not mortals. They're dragons, fey, magical creatures. Mortals can't use that magic unless Chaos' energies are present in the world to do so.
That's the key here - before the Greygem, there were no human, ogre, or elf mages at all. They couldn't access the primal magic of the world. Dragons et al could, but it wouldn't be until the release of the Greygem that the mortal races could develop any talent for using wild magic (which is the primal magic of creation + Chaos).
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Koranith
Then if that is the case, High Sorcery is not "true magic", but merely a divinely xeroxed form of Primal Socery that they allow mortals to use. Also then, sorcerers should fall under the purview of the WoHS but should be allowed to flourish and grow on their own or pass into oblivion as they did before.
Sorry Koranith, I must have misunderstood what you were saying. From the above, it sounded like you were saying that "true magic" is a xerox (or copy of the same) of Primal Sorcery. This sounds ALOT like saying they are the same thing (one is a carbon copy of the other). That's where I got that. I think I see your meaning, but it wasn't very clear due to the above statement.
As for the ongoing and recurring argument of feys, dragons, scions, et all, they are magical creatures like Cam stated earlier. Again, do creatures like beholders, medusa, basilisks, gorgons, catoblepas, etc draw on the powers of primal sorcery (ie magic of Krynn + Chaos magic like Sorcerers) or the moon gods? Not the last time I checked, especially since the WoHS haven't started any crusades to cleanse the world of magical creatures. Dragons, fey, scions etc I sort of lump together with other magical creatures. They use and access a form of magic different than ANY mortals do. WoHS, sorcerers, mystics and clerics powers should not be compared to the innate magical talents of feys, dragons, scions etc because the source of the magic is different. It would be like saying clerics are really wizards because they can use magic as well, when we know that, yes, they do use magic, but the sources and ways they use that magic are completely different.
Personally, I dont I like the argument that dragons arent mortal because technically they are heh. Immortals are people who dont die, like of old age and such. Dragons do die, so I see them as mortal.
And thats another reason that it bothers me that its ok dragons can cast sorceror spells, and yet sorcerors are seen as wild and dangerous. But this also stems from what I said up above, that I dont see dragons as "not mortal"
I guess you can come up with reasons why you think dragons "arent mortal" and some may be convincing, but I see them as drawing on magic the same way as humans, elves, and such. I kind of consider them having um..virtual levels.. in sorceror.
Originally posted by True_Blue
Well mechanically, the spells dragons use and sorcerors use are the same. They are considered sorcerors of that level or whatever it says in the Monster Manual. There is nothing in the rule books distinguishing dragons casting spells and sorcerors casting spells.
Personally, I dont I like the argument that dragons arent mortal because technically they are heh. Immortals are people who dont die, like of old age and such. Dragons do die, so I see them as mortal.
And thats another reason that it bothers me that its ok dragons can cast sorceror spells, and yet sorcerors are seen as wild and dangerous. But this also stems from what I said up above, that I dont see dragons as "not mortal"
I guess you can come up with reasons why you think dragons "arent mortal" and some may be convincing, but I see them as drawing on magic the same way as humans, elves, and such. I kind of consider them having um..virtual levels.. in sorceror.
I myself never called dragons immortal. I HAVE referred to humans, elves, ogres, kender, dwarves and gnomes as mortal races though. Races that DON'T have access to the same source of power as dragons, feys, etc.
The magic that dragons, feys, scions, etc use is described as socerer type spells in the Monster Manual for COMPARISON purposes, so you know how to rule on the effects of their powers (range, relative casting time, area of effect, etc etc etc) Also, keep in mind the Monster Manual is a book with a general description as well, one intended for different campaigns, not just Dragonlance. Or, we can get into the magic of Forgotten Realms and "the Weave", which is a totally different topic. ONCE AGAIN, beholders use spell like effects as well. Do you think thier ability to cast spells from their eye stalks and to levitate, or cast an anti MAGIC zone are the same as the powers granted to mortal sorcerers?
I've tried to answer your (and others) questions repeatedly, but none of you has answered mine. Do you hold creatures like beholders, medusa, etc at a different level (magically speaking) than dragons, feys, scions, etc? If so, why?
Um now onto monsters who have spell-like abilities. I guess I never really thought about it. I guess they act like spells, so they would access wild magic. See this never bothered me because I'm still of the mind that sorcery isnt bad anyways. I dont really see it as any more dangerous as wizardry, thus all the threads I argue on heh =p.
To me, no sources of magic have ever seemed worse than any of the others. I always hold the person responsible for what happens and not the source. But others think differently and are of the mind that sorcery is inherintly(sp? blah) bad, or problematic. As I said once before, I'm sure eventually sorcery will have something bad happen, to justify the "sorcery is bad' theory. But its in response to the problems there have been with people justifying it, instead of being planned from the beginning.
Originally posted by True_Blue
Well, I havent really explicitely looked over them. I mentioned dragons because they are for all intents and purposes, sorcerors. Its like Auraks, Bozaks, etc..they are pretty much sorcerors. They dont just have spell-like abilities, they have actually spells. Exactly the same as sorcerors. So I really dont see them as different one bit. I really don't see how they access "wild magic" (god I hate that term heh) any different than other races, but I guess it might be one of the those thigns where the designers will just say "yea theres no real technicla difference, but we say there is so...there is". Not trying to bash the designers, sorry if that comes out too negative. I just don't like what has happened with magic. Sorcery was implemented and then given small consideration with a bunch of "reasons" that werent very well thought out, or at least in my opinion.
Um now onto monsters who have spell-like abilities. I guess I never really thought about it. I guess they act like spells, so they would access wild magic. See this never bothered me because I'm still of the mind that sorcery isnt bad anyways. I dont really see it as any more dangerous as wizardry, thus all the threads I argue on heh =p.
To me, no sources of magic have ever seemed worse than any of the others. I always hold the person responsible for what happens and not the source. But others think differently and are of the mind that sorcery is inherintly(sp? blah) bad, or problematic. As I said once before, I'm sure eventually sorcery will have something bad happen, to justify the "sorcery is bad' theory. But its in response to the problems there have been with people justifying it, instead of being planned from the beginning.
Then again, draconians are humanoid, and may have been lumped in with the other mortal races as to who can and who can't access primal magic. The draconians haven't been around that long, so the argument of their using powers other than the latent chaos energies in the world from the passing of the high god isn't as strong. Draconians as sorcerers for the above reasons makes sense, and they should be bound by the same rules as the other mortal races, ie, they channel chaos magic like sorcerers do, and not primal magic like dragons and feys.
As for the source of magic, history has shown that primal/chaos magic of sorcery can get out of control and cause wide spread destruction and chaos (hence 'chaos' magic), and thus is something feared and despised by WoHS. WoHS temper their abilities with years of study and guidance by the moon gods. They have a better control over their art, and are a much lesser threat to themselves and those around them (exception being renegades like Raistlin and his bid to overthrow Tak, Ariakas's war, etc)
The original thread that spawned all of this was 'why renegade hunters'. The source of magic was a by-product of that debate. Renegade hunters pursue those that use magic and who are not WoHS (and casting powerful spells), or WoHS that no longer play by the rules of the conclave (Raistlin, Fistandantilus, Ariakas, etc) and causing chaos. In that light, source of magic doesn't mean much of anything to me. It's the inherent responsibility and accountability of using magic that concerns me, whether it be a renegade wizard or sorcerer. The renegade hunters are a check and balance to make sure that spell casters are kept in line by the ONLY organization on Krynn that serves to police and control magic, the WoHS.
Originally posted by Sysane
Maybe this should be in its own thread. But, how do the other gods feel about Mysticism? Do they dislike that form of divine magic as the gods of arcane magic hate primal magic?
That hasn't even been touched on fully yet, at least not in terms of a novel. Margaret's upcoming Dark Disciple trilogy might make mention of it, given the subject matter.
Mystics don't need or require the gods to cast spells, as they have learned how to access the living magic of the world through their own paradigm or faith, not faith in the gods. Clerics can receive power because the gods grant it to them in an exchange of faith, but mystics shortcut this by simply marshalling their own emotional strength and will to cast spells. There are differences, very noticeable ones, such as the limited domain access of mystics when compared to clerics, and the lack of undead turning. But it should be noted that a mystic can cast his or her domain spell as many times as he or she likes, which (depending on the domain spell in question) is often impossible for a cleric to do.
A mystic is a domain personified. A cleric is faith in a god personified. There's going to be a point where the gods, especially those which govern specific areas such as nature and war, are going to want those mystics to join them rather than do without them. That's going to be yet another aspect of the overall theme of the Age of Mortals: godly power or mortal resourcefulness.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by True_Blue
Its like Auraks, Bozaks, etc..they are pretty much sorcerors. They dont just have spell-like abilities, they have actually spells. Exactly the same as sorcerors. So I really dont see them as different one bit. I really don't see how they access "wild magic" (god I hate that term heh) any different than other races, but I guess it might be one of the those thigns where the designers will just say "yea theres no real technicla difference, but we say there is so...there is".
I've been trying to limit the use of the term wild magic to primal magic used by mortal sorcerers (and yes, I don't mean "able to die", I mean "not a powerful magical race" when I say mortal). This is because mortal sorcerers need Chaos in order to access that magic, and that access brings with it the danger that the gods of magic are concerned about. Dragons and other magical creatures that cast spells like sorcerers are doing so without Chaos, and thus they're actually very safe.
Have you noticed that dragons can actually cast spells not just from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, but in many cases from the cleric spell list and certain domain spells? They are the undisputed masters of primal magic on Krynn, the real hybrid spellcasters that the sorcerers of the Academy were trying to become. Something to think about.
Cheers,
Cam
Just my thoughts!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Maybe my whole problem is just the way sorcery goes. I've argued in enough threads about it, maybe its just time for me to sit down and accept the things the way they are heh. For some reason just the way sorcery has come off has bothered me. It seems to raise 2 questions for every one that gets answered.
I dont even like sorcerors that much, I much prefer the WoHS. Just a lot of sorcery questions seem to have flimsy and "because thats the way it is" answers. No offense intended.
I guess this is what comes from converting novels and a good story into game mechanics. Maybe I should just enjoy the read and not worry how/why things happen heh.
In practice however where the magic comes from defines how the magic behaves. This is why clerics and wizards don't have the same spell list for example.
Primal Sorcery, in essence, is the fundamental energy infused into Krynn during the Age of Starbirth. In the normal course of events this energy is bound up in the natural processes of the world and is not generally accessible. Exceptions to this existed in creatures with strong ties to the world on a fundamental elemental level. Naturally this includes the dragons, who were forged from the world's metals and have some degree of attunement to raw magic.
Other beings on the other hand, such as humans and elves, were not inherently connected to this elemental energy. But the presence of Chaos (the god Ionthas) loosens the purse-strings so to speak and makes this energy more accessible to ordinary mortals.
The problem of course is that even as Chaos makes "wild magic" more freely accessible, wild magic in turn can enhance the presence of Chaos in the world, which can lead to diasters like those caused by use of powerful wold magic during the Age of Dreams.
The gods of Krynn have a noticeable slant towards Order (thus balancing the powerful force of Chaos/Ionthas). It is not among their goals to keep mortals helpless and so the three Gods of Magic decided to impose a system of Order onto magic so as to make it safe for mortals to use while at the same time allowing for as widespread use of magic as possible.
Essentially the Gods of Magic take universal energies and structure them so that mortals can access them safetly (this is similar to what Mystra does in FR with her Weave). As mortals embrace this paradigm of magic use the influence of Chaos wans, resulting in a decline in the accessibility of wild magic as Order becomes ascendent. Wild magic retreats back into the elemental fabric of Krynn leaving only those creatures that draw on it naturally to use it.
High Sorcery, being more structured, offers greater variability. An individual wizard is capable of learning a much larger repertoire of spells than a sorceror can for example. They pay a price in being bound to rules of magic, but are rewarded with enhanced powers and flexibility. In this way magic does not automatically advance the cause of Chaos, while at the same time still being available for great mortal undertakings. The gods benefit by beating back Ionthas, while mortals benefit from having magic they can use safetly.
The Chaos War permeated the world with Chaos's presence, and as a result wild magic became accessible to an extent it had not been since the Age of Dreams. This proved useful to many since the absence of the gods meant that any who relied on the magic flowing from them (which included even renegade wizards) were powerless. Tapping into wild magic provided some power. But all this use of wild magic did nothing to settle down the presence of Chaos in the world. When the gods returned they naturally wanted to reassert Order, and so encouraging mortals back onto their paths was the first step.
Unfortunately the 3E game system poorly reflects this. High Sorcery is supposed to be superior to Primal Sorcery. Early on in the 5th Age (as depicted when the game used the SAGA system) Primal Sorcery, being linked to elemental forces, was poorly-suited to manipulation of non-elemental forces. Sorcery could not directly affect living things (the province of Mysticism) nor could it produce or direct purely magical energies (Magic Missiles, Dispel Magic, Wish, etc.). But I guess that for ease of use with 3E D&D they simply used the Sorceror class as written, which creates much of the confusion surrounding the issue.
Originally posted by frostdawn
So the last question to consider is should Sorcerers and WoHS exist together in harmony?
Actually, maybe I'll be able to tell you in a few weeks. In the campaign (KoD) I'm playing, we now have two Wizards of High Sorcery, a white robe and a red robe. And a player who just died decided to become a Battle Sorceror. So we are going to have to play that out.
Personally, I think that the sorcerors should be given a robe, say, brown or green, and integrated into the WoHS. Basically, right now it seems that sorcerors outnumber the WoHS. They should try and work with the sorcerors. Soon enough, the sorcs are gonna see the threat posed to them my the WoHS, and form orders of sorcery, and THAT will make it much harder to control than if they were part of the WoHS. I mean, hey, other gods have incorporated the primal magic. It seems Mishakal, for example, was plenty pleased to take up patronage of the Citadel Mystics.
Originally posted by Sysane
Maybe this should be in its own thread. But, how do the other gods feel about Mysticism? Do they dislike that form of divine magic as the gods of arcane magic hate primal magic?
Actually, somewhere in the Dragonlance sourcebook it said that the gods of neutrality approve of both primal sorcery and mysticism, because they balance out the godly control on high sorcery and clerical magic (well, I imagine that Lunitari only has those benevolant feelings towards mysticism). It doesn't say why they believe that. It could be anything from "these are uniquely mortal sources of magic, so we have to approve of them in theory or become hypocrites by denying their unfettered free will," to "they can do without us now and they know it, so let's make nice and not do anything to drive them away from us."
Originally posted by bterrik
Actually, maybe I'll be able to tell you in a few weeks. In the campaign (KoD) I'm playing, we now have two Wizards of High Sorcery, a white robe and a red robe. And a player who just died decided to become a Battle Sorceror. So we are going to have to play that out.
Personally, I think that the sorcerors should be given a robe, say, brown or green, and integrated into the WoHS. Basically, right now it seems that sorcerors outnumber the WoHS. They should try and work with the sorcerors. Soon enough, the sorcs are gonna see the threat posed to them my the WoHS, and form orders of sorcery, and THAT will make it much harder to control than if they were part of the WoHS. I mean, hey, other gods have incorporated the primal magic. It seems Mishakal, for example, was plenty pleased to take up patronage of the Citadel Mystics.
Myself, I'd like to see the re-establishment of the Academy, and have the Academy and the WoHS become uneasy partners. If only for the enjoyment of watching Dalamar grind his teeth into nothing.:D
I'd like to see Palin take the leadership of the Academy, because it would grant the institution a legitmacy that no other leader could give it. He'd probably have to get his sorcerous powers back, but I always interpreted it as him being barred from wizardry, and only thinking that he can't tap primal sorcery. After all, if the gods of magic could strip him of primal sorcery, why didn't they just strip all the new sorcerers of their powers and restore the pre DoSF balance? Unless, of course, this question is addressed in Wizard's Conclave, which I haven't yet read.
The Gods of Magic want to restore order to the ambient magical energies of the world. They are going to push expansionism with the Orders the like of which hasn't been seen since th Age of Dreams.
They may, in fact, get considerable public support in this. With the Academy gone the largest and most visible grouping of sorcerors is the Thorn Knights. Needless to say that isn't going to do much for the public image of sorcerors.
Likewise, the Knights of Solmnia place devotion to the gods as a high priority. Now that Solinari is back along with the other gods it is likely that they will not tolerate the presence of any arcane spellcasters other than Wizards of High Sorcery (and White Robes at that) around their turf. Especially since sorcerors are represented so strongly in their rivals the Knights of Neraka. Kiri-Jolith will probably support his brother Solinari by encouraging the Solamnics to restrict their auxillary to White Robes.
Sorcery won't be going away anytime soon, but I expect great contention between wizards and sorcerors. It probably will not be too severe until the wizards reestablish their organization. If the historical precedent set in the Age of Dreams is any indication, sorcery should become weaker and rarer as High Sorcery becomes more prevalent. That will take centuries though.
Back to Chaos being required for Sorcery to work. I have to still disagree with that statement for several reasons. First off if I read my Knowledge (Krynnish History) correctly the Scions wreaked all sorts of havoc long before the Greygem came to Krynn and started turning everyone into gnomes, kender, and minotaurs. So that would mean that mortals (ie non-divine, non-super uber mortals) had access to Sorcery before Chaos was introduced. Secondly, why would Chaos be present post SoSF? He was "recaptured" in the husk of the Greygem not destroyed or dissapatied. Then the world was stolen, so were not even dealing with the Krynn being in the same place anymore to tap into the chaotic energies that would have been left over had he been "destroyed". That's my take on it. It makes for a better story from where I'm sitting anyway.
End of Chaos War, Chaos's essence is drawn inside the Greygem through trapping a single piece of him. Takhisis harnesses the power of the Gem, the defeated energies of Chaos, to propel 'her' world through the Grey to it's new location. This is shown through the effect of the Gem being destroyed, and the shards settling as the stars in their new positions. A side effect of this is an increase in primal power across Krynn, Chaos's energies spread like butter over the world to help grease it through the Grey.
The WoHS don't like the sorcerers because they are harnessing the primal powers that in ages past were so dangerous and uncontrollable. Whether you want to represent this in-game is up to the DM, and even if there are no rules presented thus far, it is up to the DM to enforce their own view of Krynn. It really depends on how sympathetic you feel towards the WoHS.
Thinking about it, the WoHS only turning around and saying now that Moon Magic is back that sorcery is definately utterly blasphemy is crap. If it was that bad, they would never have used it in the first place. Ah well.
In terms of mysticism, I just recently picked up (unopened, still sealed) copy of Heroes of Hope (really cheap), presenting a character concept I'd not thought of before: those faithful in the early AoM who received mystical powers through their faith in their absent gods. This in turn has made me think... what about the Seeker religions? If the faithful of the 'real' gods can use mysticism and believe it's the gods, couldn't the Seeker religions do pretty much the same thing? Why couldn't someone have thought of this much sooner, during the early AoM? I'm certainly toying with the idea of running pre-WoS game now, with characters being part of a Seeker religion, and later dealing with the return of the gods.
Originally posted by Koranith
disagree with that statement for several reasons. First off if I read my Knowledge (Krynnish History) correctly the Scions wreaked all sorts of havoc long before the Greygem came to Krynn and started turning everyone into gnomes, kender, and minotaurs. So that would mean that mortals (ie non-divine, non-super uber mortals) had access to Sorcery before Chaos was introduced. Secondly, why would Chaos be present post SoSF? He was "recaptured" in the husk of the Greygem not destroyed or dissapatied. Then the world was stolen, so were not even dealing with the Krynn being in the same place anymore to tap into the chaotic energies that would have been left over had he been "destroyed". That's my take on it. It makes for a better story from where I'm sitting anyway.
I thought we already decided that scions are an innately magical race, so their access to magic is DIFFERENT from the magic the mortal races have access to. Dragons, feys, SCIONS, et all (ie other magical creatures) DO NOT access magic the way the mortal races do (note- 'mortal races' being humans, elves, ogres, dwarves, kender, gnomes, etc). We've gone over this about 5-6 times now. Those from the mortal races did NOT have access to sorcery until AFTER the incident with the grey gem that created the gnomes, kender and dwarves. Since scions are NOT one of the mortal races, their having access to magic should not be a surprise, and should not be a jumping off point to try and logic that mortal races and scions are essentially the same, so they should be governed by the same rules, and use all the same magics. This is not the case.
As for Chaos being 'gone' after Krynn was moved, (whether in the gem, 'dissipated' or whatever) I think that is a moot point. Think of his magic as water, and Krynn is a sponge. The 'sponge' gets saturated with 'water'. If you pick up that sponge, and physically move it, your not draining the water out of it in the process of moving it. It's still there. Same is true with the residual magic of chaos after Krynn was moved by Tak. Chaos simply being present flooded the world with his magic. Stopping him or imprisoning him just means you shut off the source of the magic, like shutting off a faucet proving the water for the sponge. The water that already spilled out is still there though.
Originally posted by frostdawn
I thought we already decided that scions are an innately magical race, so their access to magic is DIFFERENT from the magic the mortal races have access to.
Actually, they've been retconned slightly. They now exist after the release of the Greygem, not before. Scion with a small s is the term used in the past for what are now known as sorcerers and mystics. Scion with a big S is what the golden-skinned dwarves became known as, individuals with a far greater mastery over primal magic than their more mundane spellcasting brothers. It seems as if they became capable of using this primal magic without Chaos' influence so to speak, explaining their existence throughout the ages even when wild magic waned.
Cheers,
Cam
I'd just have the dwarven scions lose influence just like all the other scions. It isn't like they play much influence after the founding of Thorbardin anyway.
I'm led to believe that Sorc/Mysticism aren't really anathema, so much as the Gods just really don't know how to handle it yet. A&A portrays the gods as very very vunerable and unsure of themselves.
Originally posted by talinthas
A&A portrays the gods as very very vunerable and unsure of themselves.
Which is just how it should be in this era.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by talinthas
I'm led to believe that Sorc/Mysticism aren't really anathema, so much as the Gods just really don't know how to handle it yet.
Exactly. This is the first time that something has happened on the world of Krynn that the gods just weren’t there to witness. They’ve got 40 years to catch up on, and a lot has happened in this time.
The gods of magic last encountered wild magic in an era where it ran rampant, necessitating the creation of the Orders of High Sorcery. They’re very suspicious, not knowing the full history or depth of sorcery. Considering that it’s still a fairly new type of magic, very few mortals fully understand it either.
The other gods are looking at mysticism, knowing that mystics don’t need them in order to perform miracles. This magic is fairly new too, and it has the touch of Chaos, so they’re a bit leery.
Like I’ve said before, the presentation of magic in Wizards’ Conclave is a perspective. That book especially drives the perspective home, so that you get an inside glimpse on what the wizards are thinking in this new era.
It’s a great setup for the conflict to come.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Actually, they've been retconned slightly. They now exist after the release of the Greygem, not before. Scion with a small s is the term used in the past for what are now known as sorcerers and mystics. Scion with a big S is what the golden-skinned dwarves became known as, individuals with a far greater mastery over primal magic than their more mundane spellcasting brothers. It seems as if they became capable of using this primal magic without Chaos' influence so to speak, explaining their existence throughout the ages even when wild magic waned.
Cheers,
Cam
If we're referring to the gold skinned dwarves, then they are the innately magical beings (like Dragons, feys, etc) that had access to magic before the release of the Greygem. Call it what you will. Innately magical, 'in tune' with the world, 'tied to the world', magically responsible so the moon gods didn't worry about them, etc. If we are referring to the scions as in the sorcerers from the past, then they got there magic after the release of the Greygem as you say, so the argument still holds true. 'Innately' magical creatures could use magic since it was in their nature before Chaos magic was introduced; including the gold skinned Scions. All others could use sorcery AFTER the Greygem's release, via Chaos magic; including the scions (as in the sorcerers, NOT the gold skinned dwarves)- same as the mortal races.
Mysticism is clearly somehow connected to Chaos and/or Takhisis. That is the only way to explain why it wasn't discovered during the two centuries of desperation between the Cataclysm and the War of the Lance when true healing was gone.
As High Sorcery became more widespread moving from the Age of Dreams into the Age of Might, wild magic became less common, and perhaps less available. The gradual imposition of order on the chaotic energies of magic slowly diminished until they became less readily available.
Whether that means that sorcery, and perhaps mysticism, will become harder to use if more orderly magic takes hold again is unclear.
The Wizards of High Sorcery will oppose wild magic. There's no question of that. The Holy Orders of the Stars haven't taken a strong stance yet but that will vary. Mishakal's clerics seem to get along well with the Mystics at the Citadel of Light (many of them having been Citadel Mystics themselves). Sargonnas on the other hand is probably going to lose patience with the "Forerunner" religion that has popped up amongst the minotaurs. They other gods will react on a case by case basis no doubt, while trying to edge people back towards the Holy Orders.
One thing the gods have in their favor is that a lot of people are like Odila. They want to believe in something beyond themselves, and people who have used both wild magic and godly magic during their lifetimes often admit that godly magic is a more ecstatic experience.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Actually, they've been retconned slightly. They now exist after the release of the Greygem, not before. Scion with a small s is the term used in the past for what are now known as sorcerers and mystics. Scion with a big S is what the golden-skinned dwarves became known as, individuals with a far greater mastery over primal magic than their more mundane spellcasting brothers. It seems as if they became capable of using this primal magic without Chaos' influence so to speak, explaining their existence throughout the ages even when wild magic waned.
Cheers,
Cam
So scions (with a small "s") now exsist after the graygem was released??? Well then...that changes a lot. I Wish I'd know that before. I amsuming that's one of those DL creator insider tips that the rest of us weren't informed of. I made a whole new continent for my game and I took painstaking efforts to make sure that the histories and pivotal events matched up, but were different enough to justify it as a new and different continent than Ansalon. I even made sure the gods recieved new costellations for being it being in the northern hemisphere. I spent months modifying and tinkering, adding steam powered gyros and craftshafts...etc. The one thing I couldn't understand was what had happened to the scions on Ansalon. I'd assumed that they either went away due to the ToHS or that they faded into the twilight being overshadowed by the ToHS.
If we're referring to the gold skinned dwarves, then they are the innately magical beings (like Dragons, feys, etc) that had access to magic before the release of the Greygem.
These gold skinned dwarves bring up another issue though. The dwarves according to all acounts of creation, except the dwarves account, are created by the Greygem. The problem is, how can these Scions/gold skinned dwarves exsist prior to the creation of the dwarven race by the Greygem? I can see a few possibilites, but none that really seem likely.
Possibility #1...Rerox created them. perhaps these humans didn't become prideful, but then why did they switch to become magic users and not stay inventors unless they use their magic for creative purposes.
Possibility #2...The dwarves story of their creation is correctly or at least partly so. Perhaps the Scions are the original dwarves and the mundane dwarves are a result of the Greygem. Problem, it seems unlikely that every other race never mentions that there was a powerful race of dwarves already in exsisence prior to the "Greygem Incident".
Possibility #3...OK so I can only think of 2 good possibilities 10 minutes after waking up.
Am I way off here, or is this one of those grey areas that SP is, hopefully, trying to fix for those Knowledge (Krynish History) buffs lke myself. Or am I just causing problems by nit picking?
Originally posted by Koranith
These gold skinned dwarves bring up another issue though. The dwarves according to all acounts of creation, except the dwarves account, are created by the Greygem. The problem is, how can these Scions/gold skinned dwarves exsist prior to the creation of the dwarven race by the Greygem?
Short answer - they don't. As far as I'm aware, the gold-skinned dwarves do not predate the release of the Greygem any longer.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Short answer - they don't. As far as I'm aware, the gold-skinned dwarves do not predate the release of the Greygem any longer.
Cheers,
Cam
I give up.
Always with the "any longer" and "retconned"!!!!! :headexplo You're going to drive me over the edge. 
Oh well I guess that's why we have have these boards to discuss and pass on. You know this means many more months moving gears, adjusting fuel tank placemnet, realigning gyros.... 
Originally posted by Koranith
I give up.
Er, don't shoot the messenger?
I'm part of the solution, not the problem. Really. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
Cheers,
Cam
places chaos touched, or holy to the divine gods that sorcerors and mystics could draw from and reinforce their own internal powers. Basically like big energy batteries.
But I suspect that places strongly affected by Chaos would provide some kind of benefit.
I can be argued that all magic works better these days. Even early in the 5th Age, before Takhisis really got her magic theft going, sorcery and mysticism were severely constrained by limitations on available ambient magical energy. This was why hanging out in places that had been saturated with power during the previous ages was so helpful. Everyone had cause to be energy-conscious because energy was difficult to come by.
With the gods back a lot more magical energy is being fed through Krynn, which makes magic easier for everyone. But I suspect that for now sites affected by Chaos would have more magical energy.
Now that the Gods of Magic have reclaimed the Tower at Wayreth, I would suspect that Order is starting to take hold there. It would not surprise me if primal sorcery started to become more difficult there. Other sites holy to the gods, especially Lawful ones, may not give their energies as freely to those who do not follow the godly paths of magic.