When would it happen?
How do you think it would happen?
Who would be the big players invovled?
What would be the long term effects of his second escape?
Would he be captured and put back in the Hollow or destroyed once and for all?
Could it even happen at all?
I'm sure there are other questions that could be added as well. This was something I've been wondering about for a while.
If it happened a while down the road (say, 300 years?) and there was no return of Rhul Thaun and their army of space hampsters, I'd say Athas would be hard-pressed to stop him. Then again, he's insane.
I think there are plenty of beings that could oppose Rajaat. Defeating him is another story however. Could all the above take him on?
Originally posted by Sysane
Could all the above take him on?
Nibenay with the Dark Lens in his hands is enough. No need to give such a thing to anybody insane.
Nibenay with the Dark Lens in his hands is enough. No need to give such a thing to anybody insane.
I'd imagine that it would take more than Nibenay even with the Dark Lens to take on Rajaat.
I don't think the Warbringer would fall for the same trick twice.
(DING! New plot idea! Haha, my players will hate me for always!)
Originally posted by Sysane
Just curious as to the thougts on what if the Warbringer escaped the Hollow again.
When would it happen?
How do you think it would happen?
Who would be the big players invovled?
What would be the long term effects of his second escape?
Would he be captured and put back in the Hollow or destroyed once and for all?
Could it even happen at all?
I'm sure there are other questions that could be added as well. This was something I've been wondering about for a while.
I don't consider him really trpped any more. He is only in the Hollow currently, biding his time, and lulling the Sorcerer-Kings into a false sense of security. I believe he is waiting for the effects of the Cerulean Storm on the Valley of Dust and Fire to complete, and that he is forging himself a new set of obsidian bones from the lavaflows there. This new skeleton hasthe Dark Lens permanently fused into it, as well as whatever was left of his original bones. Once done, he will be even more powerful, and unstoppable. I also believe he is working on seducing the other paraelemental planes to his cause - and believe that Rain had been the first one he seduced - Rain gives the impression that it is on the side of the Elemental powers, but in fact, is working for Rajaat now.
I also believe that while Dregoth is around, he could care less about Rajaat any more - he has other, grander plans. And Oronis would have to weigh the problem of revealing himself to the others vs. letting Rajaat reign supreme - andthen decide if he will help fight his master off.
I also believe that while Dregoth is around, he could care less about Rajaat any more - he has other, grander plans.
He may have grander plans, but they maybe hindered if Rajaat were to escape and return Athas to the halflings.
That seems to be in direct conflict with Dregoths plans of becoming the first god of Athas and giving it to the Dray.
Yoink!
Originally posted by Sysane
He may have grander plans, but they maybe hindered if Rajaat were to escape and return Athas to the halflings.
That seems to be in direct conflict with Dregoths plans of becoming the first god of Athas and giving it to the Dray.
Conflict? probably. However, I usually have Dregoth so focused on his own goals that he has relative blinders about everything else going on around him. Basically, his insanity is that he is far too devoted and dedicated to his own goals, and less interested in anything that doesn't have immediate relavance to them. Rajaat's "supposedly" in his prison, and Dregoth has simply marked him off as no longer a threat, and turned back to his determination to become a god. Of course, I also play that Dregoth currently isn't even *on* Athas. He's wandering the outer planes, studying godhood, and doing whatever he can to quantify the divine. I've had him appear in non Dark Sun campaigns, where players encounter him, and he sends them on quests, usually after divine items, or other evidence of the divine. As long as they do what he wants, he poses no threat. As soon as one of them discoveres what he is, or goes against his plans, he usually summarily executes the infidels. I remember the ignorant Paladin who decided to "look the gift horse in the mouth" and successfully accomplished a "detect evil" spell on Dregoth, panicked, and attacked the "wisened old man of pure absolute and utter evil", only to find himself against a near-godlike being of tremendous power, and the poor paladin was merely level 12. The group of players all smacked the paladin's player on the head for wiping out the party, before they even went on the quest.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
The Lens fused with Rajaat's bones? Yike!
Yoink!
heh. Of course, I also have Rajaat slowly and inexorably becoming The Black, which is part of his fusing to the Dark Lens. As such, I rule that black-touched creatures, and Shadow Mages all actually are subtly doing Rajaat's will, without their knowledge. Far more subtly than the Ceruleans, who actually are doing the split will of Rajaat and Tithian.
Just curious as to the thougts on what if the Warbringer escaped the Hollow again.
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine....
Basically, his insanity is that he is far too devoted and dedicated to his own goals, and less interested in anything that doesn't have immediate relavance to them.
I played Dregoth more bold (but not stupid) than insane. I had (he has been defeated since in my campaign) it that he used a network of spies on the surface and carefully watched the activities of the other SK. This helped him catch them off gaurd when the Dread King captured each of them and then stole their vorcties(sp).
I don't think Dregoth would take the threat of Rajaat so lightly. Thats just IMHO though.
Originally posted by Sysane
I played Dregoth more bold (but not stupid) than insane. I had (he has been defeated since in my campaign) it that he used a network of spies on the surface and carefully watched the activities of the other SK. This helped him catch them off gaurd when the Dread King captured each of them and then stole their vorcties(sp).
I don't think Dregoth would take the threat of Rajaat so lightly. Thats just IMHO though.
Well, I have it that he was already a dedicated individual prior to being killed. Undeath has snapped his mind, and made him extremely over-focused on things. Currently, his focus is becoming athe first god of Athas. Failing that, he may become dedicated to solving the problem about him being incapable of completing the dragon metamorphosis. He's a megalomaniacal fiend.
I do find it interesting, from what I've talked to people about in chats who have access to Dregoth Ascending, how much my perception of Dregoth meshes with that which is written in the unreleased module. Some isn't quite matched up, but much is.
Of course, I also have it, for my Dark Sun, that Dregoth was the inventor of the Dragon Metamorphosis process, and his research into that process is wy he remained at the Giant city of Giustenal for so long during the Cleansing Wars. Rajaat stole his research, and redesigned it to suit his needs with Hamanu later. And Dregoth taught the process to Borys, who after the revolution, initiated it in the other Sorcerer-Kings. I have Dregoth being the must studious of the Sorcerer-Kings, and the class line-up I have for him is a wizard(defiler) & erudite. In fact, I have him being the only Sorcerer-King who is an erudite (Erudite was a base psionic class presented in either Dragon or Dungeon, in some respects, works more like a wizard than a sorcerer, but in other respects, doesn't quite)
Originally posted by Sysane
Just curious as to the thougts on what if the Warbringer escaped the Hollow again.
Where does it specifically state that Rajaat was even thrown back into the Hollow?
Don't recall anything from PP5 stating that.
I want official words here, not conjecture, we can add our own little conjecture later once we get the official hammered out.
Where does it specifically state that Rajaat was even thrown back into the Hollow?
I'm pretty sure in BtPP it states that he is.
Originally posted by Sysane
I'm pretty sure in BtPP it states that he is.
Can you reprint where that is stated then?
Just finished reading those books again a few months back and don't recall that at all. In fact, I think it states that he is imprisoned within the Cerluean Storm with Tithian and not within the Hollow again.
"look the gift horse in the mouth"
Do you actually say that in English? Or did you translate it from "Einem geschenkten Gaul schaut man nicht ins Maul". After all, you lived in Germany.
Ok, it's official In Beyond the Prism Pentad on page 8 it states "...obliterating his shadow and sending his essence back to the Hollow."
Thank you very much :D
"look the gift horse in the mouth"
Yes it's an English saying also. It usually said as "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth"
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
heh. Of course, I also have Rajaat slowly and inexorably becoming The Black, which is part of his fusing to the Dark Lens.
There's also that bit of info in Abbey's Notes where she thninks that the Black might be the Lens. No Black before the Lens was created.
I find there's potential there.
Originally posted by Cyrus9a
Ok, it's official In Beyond the Prism Pentad on page 8 it states "...obliterating his shadow and sending his essence back to the Hollow."
Ok, thanks, that's all I was wanting to know.
Mwuahahahaha!
Let the conjecture fly!
There's also that bit of info in Abbey's Notes where she thninks that the Black might be the Lens. No Black before the Lens was created.
Wow! Now that's just mind blowing. Thinking of an entire focused demi-plane existing mataphorically within the confines of the Dark Lens itself. The lens was said to focus and amplify one's power (or if you use Raven's analogies, to focus one's potential and alter the possiblities of an outcome). What would happen now that the lens is trapped in the plain of lava. Some, Xlor and myself included, think that the lens would have disolved, melted away. Would that now open up the possibility of the Black spilling over onto Athas proper; the reality of the world overtaken by the 'possiblities' of the Black? Not just food for thought, but a damn smorgasbord for the mind. Sorry, my head just exploded once again. Must rest now before cleaning up the mess.
Originally posted by Pennarin
There's also that bit of info in Abbey's Notes where she thninks that the Black might be the Lens. No Black before the Lens was created.
I find there's potential there.
Which is where I derived it from. Basically, as the Dark Lens has been absorbed into the cooling lava of the Valley of the Cerulean Storm, so is the Black being merged with Rajaat himself, and he becomes a sentient plane of immense power. He also has been making alliances with the Paraelemental planes, which are the easiest to seduce with power, and bringing them into line with him. The Dark Lens, which is the physical representation of the Black in this view, becomes part of the new obsidian bones forged by the Cerulean Storm that Rajaat made for himself out of the lava that is cooling there (the paraelemental planes of Rain and Magma effectivelyserving their part in his rebirth). He already shows that he has power with Sun (with how Sadira's magic works, and the effects of the Dark Lens and how it enhanced magic), and the paraelemental plane of Silt effectively becomes his "nest" (the Valley of the Cerulean Storm is within the Sea of Silt). Imagine Rajaat reborn, with the full power of the Black at his command, and the subjugation and powers of the combined paraelemental planes at his whim. Paraelemental clerics following his commands, as are Cerulean and Shadow Mages. At that point, Rajaat will truly be unable to be stopped by the Sorcerer-Kings and their puny armies.
Of course, the counterbalance to Rajaat's plans in my Dark Sun, is the arrival of my rendition of the Rhulisti "Space Halflings", which are the Yuusong Vong from Star Wars. They are invisible to psionic power, and attack anything of arcane magical origins. They use things that are foreign to Rajaat, and thus he has no control over. They also are battling the resurgance of the Zik-Chil and the full weight of the Tohr-Kreen Empire, who have their genetic memories fire up and make them active once more, at the arrival of their ancient enemies. Basically, there becomes a massive cascading effect that ends up bringing Athas and all its inhabitants to either the end of the world, or the beginning of a whole new one. All these divergant problems recombine into a massive power struggle.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Basically, there becomes a massive cascading effect that ends up bringing Athas and all its inhabitants to either the end of the world, or the beginning of a whole new one. All these divergant problems recombine into a massive power struggle.
Pure beauty.
Were your PC's going to get to high enough level to affect it? or were these things happening in the background?
Originally posted by SysaneI could see him escaping in parts. Small sections of his essence slowly seeping into Athas froming their own bodies to later join together to refrom Rajaat.
This got me thinking - maybe he could be split up into bodies that dont know where they come from (KOTOR style) known as Shards.
They are varied rebirth-races and have the powers of either half elementals of water or Water Genasi - but are basically normal, eg a Human Rogue, an Elf Wizard, you get the idea.
The shadow halflings and a cult of Cerulean wizards are trying to regather these Shards of Rajaat and so over time(ie the life of the campaign) the Shards are drawn to the sea of silt where they are captured and recombined at the cerulean storm.
Maybe one of the PC's could actually be one of these Shards. The player aware only that there is something planned for them but not what it is. The character finds over time/levels they have dreams/nightmares and maybe develop different powers. Eventually they will feel the call and go to the Sea of Silt, with the rest of their party and either be joined with the other shards (whether willingly or by force) or defeat the Cerulean Cult and stop Rajaat from returning (or maybe he will return but be less powerful because hes lacking some of his essence)
Originally posted by DracoChapel
Wow Xlor - makes me think of the chinese curse - "may you live in interesting times".
Were your PC's going to get to high enough level to affect it? or were these things happening in the background?
Actually, the various plotlines interweave throughout the campaign, and they have several opportunities to affect different elements of different plotlines, if they desire. Since I don't enforce that a group follows my story and can wander and pretty much do whatever they want, some have picked up on it and figured out a solution to the dilemma. Others don't realize it's going on until it's far too late. Generally tho, by the time these things really begin to be something that affects them, they are epic level and possibly can help or hinder.
Originally posted by DracoChapel
So you run long-term campaigns a fair bit then? Sounds like you run a series of adventures but with the BIG plotline in the background - is it hard keeping the players interested? I find if you dont play regularly (and Rlife keeps intruding) then they can lose interest or just forget what was going on
I did. Used to play every weekend for about 3 years, plus any holiday, or sometimes even on weeknights. Our group would juggle between my Dark Sun, World of Darkness, my personal Homebrew setting, Dragonlance and even a Planescape mock-up I did, and the other GM's Shadowrun and Star Wars, his own Homebrew setting, d20 Modern and Forgotten Realms. We'd also switch off to do some Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k, enough things to keep it varied and keep up the interest. Before that, for about 4 years, there was another group which the two of us were regularly playing with, about every weekend, while we were in the Army together. However, I've since had to move, and am having to set myself back up again with a stable, competant group of players, and have actually been working on getting a PBEM Dark Sun campaign going.
I don't find it difficult to keep up the interest, since I basically leave it open to the players to do things, and tend to run my games by the seat of my pants - generating up situations, quests, and encounters completely on the fly, while still keeping my overall story archs in my head, while tracking what each of the NPC's would be doing. But, I'm able to divide my attention between multiple things (which usually drives people around me a little nuts). I've had campaigns for Dark Sun run from level 3 to level 27, and outside Dark Sun run from level 1 to level 38 - the problem is that at epic levels, it becomes almost impossible to whip up an instant enemy or encounter, due to all the rules involved with epic encounters and creatures.
To keep up a regular schedule, you gotta set one, and get people interested enough to want to keep that schedue. Of course, if it's not possible, you just rig up the campaign to work in such a way that player-characters can come and go as they need, with the characters usually leading double lives.
Originally posted by Cyrus9a
Yes it's an English saying also. It usually said as "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth"
It's also a French saying: "À cheval donné on ne regarde pas la bride", which means that you don't look at a gift horse's bridle.
Originally posted by Sysane
Does anyone think the Mind Lords would step up to bat if Rajaat was freed once again? If not at first what would make them jump into action?
I don't think much will. I think they are limited in their range, and far too focused on the LAst Sea region to really care about what's going on outside of it.
Secondly, the close proximity of the Dark Lens absorbed the containment spells and released Rajaat. Now the Dark Lens is right below his prison in the magma...
(This type of thing is why I play prePP Dark Sun, Hooray for the Dragon!)
Plus, it isnt X number of slaves per year, its every few years i thought. So maybe thats why they needed a new dragon, it was time to collect the tithe and keep rajaat imprisoned.
Is his imprisonment a new (presumably weaker) prison created by sadira? or simply returning him to the old prison?
What does Beyond the Prism Pentad say about the reimprisonment? i dont think Cerulean Storm says much.
Originally posted by DracoChapel
Did daskinor and Oronis have to tithe 1000 slaves each? i imagine oronis would prefer not to, but hey, better a 1000 slaves than his whole city.
Plus, it isnt X number of slaves per year, its every few years i thought. So maybe thats why they needed a new dragon, it was time to collect the tithe and keep rajaat imprisoned.
Is his imprisonment a new (presumably weaker) prison created by sadira? or simply returning him to the old prison?
What does Beyond the Prism Pentad say about the reimprisonment? i dont think Cerulean Storm says much.
They did at the beginning, but Daskinor's growing insanity troubled the Dragon, and he kinda intentionally forgot them, as their tithes apparently weren't necessary either. Since the Dragon forgot them, the other Sorcerer-Kings probably considered them dead (heck, their tithes could have been less than 1,000 slaves each to begin, and were raised higher at that point) - as an example of the power of the Dragon, and what happens to those who... disappoint him. Regardless, the two cities were forgotten, hense the term the "Lost Cities".
Originally posted by Pennarin
So why do the SKs think the spell is holding their master? Could it be that the emprisonment spell lasts for more than a year and that the yearly levy was but a precaution on the part of the SKs and the Dragon?
I think I have the answer to my own question.
165th King's Age (-1,925) [about 75 years after the Dragon's creation]
-Wind's Defiance
Borys emerges from his insanity and learns Rajaat's prison is on the verge of collapse. Soon after he collects a levy of 1,000 slaves from each sorcerer-king, using their lifeforce to reseal the First Sorcerer's prison on a yearly basis.
One, I don't think the Dragon used all the slaves he gathered from the other SK's to power his warding spells on Rajaat's prison. I think in VoDaF it stated that he used some of them to replenish Ur Draxa slaves. This would make sense due to the city being more remote and cut off from rest of the Tyr region.
Two, I think BtPP had an adventure that dealt with the wards on the Dark Lens breaking down and Sadira fortifing her spells a bit more. Granted that still may not be enough to keep the Warbringer trapped.
Originally posted by Sysane
Two, I think BtPP had an adventure that dealt with the wards on the Dark Lens breaking down and Sadira fortifing her spells a bit more. Granted that still may not be enough to keep the Warbringer trapped.
As I've mentioned, my persective is that Sadira believes her spells are accomplishing something. Rajaat lets her think that.
My stance is that the wards are hindering his return but if Rajaat truly wanted to escape he would set plans in motion that would/could break Sadira's wards in very little time.
I was thinking of another pyreen, most likely female, that was Rajaat's truest friend and possible love interest (I'll catch grief for that I'm sure). I'm thinking along the lines of a Quasimodo type story.
Maybe this pyreen is still around wandering Athas or perhaps trapped somewhere. It would be an interesting adventure hook for PCs. This pyreen may have info that would be pertinent to Rajaat and his plans.
Just a thought.
I had a few other champions that I dreamed up that exist on the far side of the Silt Sea. One of them could have been in on the creation of magic.
I guess there's a lot of possibilities, but I like the original: Rajaat, while nearly killing himself, discovered magic in a place that should have never had any.
If you're into Planescape, there's a character in Faces of Sigil that "supposedly" taught Rajaat magic.
As much as I like Plansecape the idea that Rajaat went to the outer planes and learned magic from some other being is kind of lame. Might as well say he was courting the Lady of Pain while their at it.
This would totally go against the grain of Rajaat having his minions researching the outer planes. Why research it when he's been there?
I'm with you on staying with the original story. I still think it would be cool to integrate a character that had close ties to the Warbringer prior to him creating magic and going wacko.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Faces of Sigil is one of my favorite PS books.
Agreed.