But, in their early years, before the Summer of Chaos, they were using wizardry. I, however, do not think they got this wizardry magic from Nuitari or any of the others, I think Takhisis herself granted the magic to her Thorn Knights. Basically, she over stepped her boundries (ie, portfolio) and became a god of magic for her Thorn Knight followers. This of course ticked off Nuitari and the rest of the gods of magic, hence the rivalry every since.
I don't think that's the official take (I don't know that we really have one yet)...but that's the way I view it as happening. The only thing we know for sure is that it is not sorcery, because that doesn't become accessible to "mortals" again until after Chaos/Ionthas is freed from the Greygem.
I don´t know whether or not this appendix is official, but I would assume that it is, based on the fact that it is featured in a Godess (Weis) & God (Hickman) anthology.
Ravenmantle
Edit: Of course Brim is absolutely right when he says that in the 5th age the Grey Robes are sorcerers.
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
Let me quote from my favorite appendix, featured in the back of "The Second Generation": "Unlike the orders of the towers, the (Thorn) knights draw on the power of all three of Krynn´s moons as the source of their magic, rather than from one moon".
This may be a bad analogy....
I guess it's kinda like a bucket with 3 holes with water coming out of the holes flowing down to Krynn. This is the High Sorcery that the moons gods filter. Takhisis draws and pulls magic from the water dripping from the bucket, this draws the filtered High Sorcery and channels that to her Grey Robes.
Like I said...drippy buckets may not the best analogy. But that's how I see it in my mind.
Originally posted by True_Blue
Remember that just because it says they favor sorcerors now, doesnt mean there can't be ones that are wizards who are renegade.
True. When I said they are sorcerers in the 5th age, I meant the EARLY 5th Age...before the WoS. My bad.
I don´t really think Takhisis has anything to do with the Grey Robes´ magic. As I see it they simply draw from the moons just like any other renegade wizard would do.
Ravenmantle
Cheers,
Cam
In other words, they're technically renegades, but they're renegades that the towers are not exactly ready to deal with just yet. If a Renegade Hunter gets the chance to off a Thorn Knight, he'll take the shot, but he won't go looking for them. It's just not worth it.
I thought this was the Grey Robes from the Minotaur Empire on Taladas ...
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Takhisis is, in fact, responsible for providing the Gray Robes with their additional power prior to the end of the Chaos War. The three moons theory was one put forward by the Towers, but they were mistaken.
Heh I guess I should study my DLCS more closely before turning to dusty old appendices from the 2nd edition!
As for my dear dear appendix. How much of it is valid officially? I know I can use any material any way I want, being a DM and all...I´m just curious about the official viewpoint about the "The Second Generation" appendix.
Ravenmantle
I'd rather they were all renegades who worshipped Takhisis but got wizardry the same way as renegades. To me, this would see more reasonable than, the gods can give their people spells, but most dont.
Originally posted by True_Blue
I'd rather they were all renegades who worshipped Takhisis but got wizardry the same way as renegades.
That is going to be my version on the subject. As I see it Takhi would need to conserve her powers for the approaching planet-theft, and the Grey Robes already have one method of wielding magic - the renegade way. Thus she wouldn´t deem it necessary to "waste" her powers in that area.
The Takhi-broke-her-boundaries-theory just adds to the confusion that is magic on Krynn. Aaaah the wonders of being a DM...we get to decide for ourselves
Ravenmantle
As to if other gods could overstep their boundaries and provide magic to their followers, I don't see why they couldn't, they just don't. The moon gods are the children of the pantheon, and I would think the parents of the moon gods have just as much power and then some as the moon gods do. (Paladine and Mishakal being Solinari's parents, Takhisis and Sargonnas being Nuitari's parents, and Gilean somehow being the only parent of Lunitari- huh? still trying to figure that one out) I think the pantheon sorta plays nice with each other out of a mutual agreement. This includes leaving the responsibility of magic in the hands of the moon gods. Takhisis however has a long history of not playing by the rules of the other gods. Trying to enter the world several times. Stealing the world. Introducing the alien dragons to Krynn (Khellendros was more or less brought to Krynn by Tak), providing magic to wizards, etc. etc.
The difference is in the additional power boost provided by the gods of magic to their committed wizards, the wizards who have passed the Test and remain truly focused on high sorcery. They're aligned with one of the moons, and enjoy the benefits of moon phases, Order secrets, and so forth.
Takhisis replaced the moon gods in that sense for the Gray Robes, granting them the additional focus and strengthening their "reception" of the power of arcane magic. This kind of thing may have been possible by other deities, but I tend to think she was the only one who had any success with it (or even tried it) before the gods of magic caught on.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by frostdawn
The only flaw I have with the moon gods granting the gray robes their magic is in "the vision" that NoT were granted. The gray robes/ Thorn knights would have thier 'visions' granted by Takhisis; whether it was a premonition, or helping new knights in 'seeing' their part to fulfill within the order of the NoT. If this is the case, then why on Krynn would Nuitari, Lunitari or especially Solinari grant visions of Takhisis and Takhisis' will to mortals they were giving magic to? If they are receiving the vision from Takhisis (sounds like a clerical gift) and aren't in fact clerics, then that sounds to me like evidence that Tak is actually providing the Thorn Knights their magic.
We have to remember that the three gods of magic does not "grant" wizards high sorcery, as gods grant their clerics magic. The Wizards of High Sorcery do not serve Solinari & Co. They serve magic - bound together by a mutual desire to research and share their magic and to safeguard it from those who would misuse it (renegades). The gods of magic are the channeling force for High Sorcery. If normal renegades are able to tap into High Sorcery then why wouldn´t Grey Robes be able to do the same?
I see absolutely no evidence that the source of the Vision is High Sorcery. Gods grant visions to mortals constantly. The gods of magic aren´t the only members of the pantheon with supernatural powers.
Ravenmantle
Yes, the moon gods provide a certain level of magic to the world which those who can, can use, but Tak provides the Grey robes/Thorn knights a great deal of the power they use, so they aren't merely drawing all of their magic from the moon gods the way WoHS do.The vision is just evidence that Tak does indeed provide the grey robes with some of her power, and since the grey robes are not in fact clerics, that is proof that Tak provides magic to wizards that worship her.
If the situation is different and she didn´t yet plan stealing Krynn (it still sounds extremely weird to me! ;)), then it does seem likely that she´d step in and "granting them the additional focus" as Cam put it. And I honestly cannot remember when Takhi realized that she had the opportunity to do that.
Again I apologize if I seem pig-headed. I just have my reservations about the whole Takhi thing.
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
But I also know that Takhi is a VERY evil and selfish godess. I doubt she´d use that kind of power on her Grey Robes when she knows that they have other means of attaining their magic AND when she has a planet to steal. It´s no so much a matter of it being possible but more a matter of Takhi´s nature.
OR, she knew she was going to take Krynn from the other gods, and wanted her followers to be the undisputed rulers of the planet, and usher in her emergence as the One God once her powers were replenished. The best way to make sure her followers can fulfill that plan is to grant them a small measure of her power to make their task that much easier. It even played right into her hands when she convinced Paladine and Gilean to allow her knights to win their battles in order to 'unify' everyone against the powers of Chaos.
Granting her followers some of her power when you look at the 'bigger picture' or her overall plan actually serves her and her ambitions rather well in that light.
Thus, yes they may receive a few cool abilities from Takhisis, but magic is thus granted from the moon gods, but not to anyone in particular. They just happened to be a little more powerful, which is kind of sad... it really is sad when the worshippers of magic (WoHS) can't beat renegade wizards. The WoHS are supposed to be the wizards. I understand Takhisis was the head of the pantheon, but come on... they are all usuing wizardry and the people who have the backing of the gods of magic can't win? I think I would debate about changing my allegiences right there heh.
Originally posted by frostdawn
Granting her followers some of her power when you look at the 'bigger picture' or her overall plan actually serves her and her ambitions rather well in that light.
I see your argument and it could very well be her reason for supporting her Grey Robes. But still (yes I´m still being stubborn ;)) stealing a planet is a VERY demanding action even for a godess. I simply don´t think she had the power to spare.
And besides once the planet emerged on the other side the moons would be gone anyway so the Grey Robes couldn´t really make use of their previous powers. They´d have to "settle" with the newly discovered wild magic. Takhisis would know this.
I do see the points you´re making and they are well-founded! Personally I´m going to stick with my appendix-theory though and explain the increased powers with extended research by the Grey Robes (guided by Takhisis) and have the Dark Queen conserve her powers for the impending planet-theft. Of course this "research" will have to be fully detailed, as my current campaign revolves around the Knights of Takhisis pre-Summer of Flame.
And I guess the question that started this thread has been answered
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by True_Blue
I would just feel a lot better if the ommitted the whole "Takhisis giving magic" thing. Thus, the Knights of the Thorn are standard renegades who obtain magic the same way as any other renegades, they just happen to work for/worship Takhisis.
Thus, yes they may receive a few cool abilities from Takhisis, but magic is thus granted from the moon gods, but not to anyone in particular. They just happened to be a little more powerful, which is kind of sad... it really is sad when the worshippers of magic (WoHS) can't beat renegade wizards. The WoHS are supposed to be the wizards. I understand Takhisis was the head of the pantheon, but come on... they are all usuing wizardry and the people who have the backing of the gods of magic can't win? I think I would debate about changing my allegiences right there heh.
That's cool, but if your concerned with what is 'canon' then Tak provides her wizards a great deal of the power they use. In your own campaign, your free to do or interpret subtleties like this to your heart's content, so if you want the Thorn knights to be strictly renegades, so be it
As for the WoHS facing off against the Thorn knights, the wouldn't be able to currently since the Thorn knights outnumber them rather badly. Outside of that, the WoHS could rather easily mow down the non-magic using knights, but then that would diminish their powers when they they'd face off against the Thorn knights, and that would be trouble for them.
With the shifting dynamics of the world though, the KoT/KoN no longer have Tak's powers to bolster their forces. All the WoHS need to do is increase their ranks/membership, and in theory, they should be able to proverbially roll right over the KoN and wipe them out in time. (and since the KoN don't have Tak's influence or guidance, their ranks may not replenish themselves as much as they did in the past, especially since a large number of this organization has devolved into mercenaries or left the order altogether)
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
I see your argument and it could very well be her reason for supporting her Grey Robes. But still (yes I´m still being stubborn ;)) stealing a planet is a VERY demanding action even for a godess. I simply don´t think she had the power to spare.
And besides once the planet emerged on the other side the moons would be gone anyway so the Grey Robes couldn´t really make use of their previous powers. They´d have to "settle" with the newly discovered wild magic. Takhisis would know this.
I do see the points you´re making and they are well-founded! Personally I´m going to stick with my appendix-theory though and explain the increased powers with extended research by the Grey Robes (guided by Takhisis) and have the Dark Queen conserve her powers for the impending planet-theft. Of course this "research" will have to be fully detailed, as my current campaign revolves around the Knights of Takhisis pre-Summer of Flame.
And I guess the question that started this thread has been answered
Ravenmantle
That's cool, I just love a good debate now and then.
One last thing to consider, when the gods fought chaos during DoSF, Takhisis did not join them. A direct magical battle with chaos would have sapped a great deal of her power, making taking Krynn almost impossible for her. I seem to remember Sargonnas mentioning that to the main minotaur (forgot his name) in 'Reavers of the Blood Sea". Tak wasn't using her powers in the battle directly, so she could conserve more power like you say.
But like I told True_Blue, if you want to interpret things slightly differently for your own campaign, then go for it. Variety is the spice of life as the old saying goes.
According to cannon, as Cam has stated,
"All wizards, renegade or no, draw on the arcane power that the gods of magic send into the world. "
This means that while Takhisis may provide some special abilities, she doesnt grant a "great deal of power". I think everyone can agree the main power of a wizard is in their spells. And the moon gods grant that. And god I hate when people sound condescending when they talk and say "You are free to change whatever you want in your campaign". I personally think people say stuff like that to belittle the other person because 99.9% of the people know they can change stuff.
Anyways, number 2. I dont even see how in the world there would have been more Knights of the Thorn than WoHS. I mean most Knights of the Thorn were renegades, and there couldnt have been that many. The WoHS had a pure monopoly on arcande magic before the Chaos War. Even if some left or some renegades joined the Knights of the Thorn, there still had to be way more WoHS and they had to have had way more magical items. But I guess thats all speculation.
Number 3, to say that wizards will mow across any of the Knights of Takhisis that arent arcane spellcasters is just true fallocy. Even if you dont include Knights of the Skull (and I'm assuming you arent because yous aid non spellcasting), I just dont see it. They are Knights trained in battle. Do you automatically assume wizards can kill anything that doesnt have spells? Well that takes away from anyone playing fighters, barbarians, rogues, and such in your campaign or anything like it. I just find it amazing that anyone would think the WoHS would automatically win. Yea they might, but I dont see it as so clear cut. Also they do have Skull Knights also, I think clerics would help a lot in the battle. I force of Knights, Clerics and Wizards going against Wizards. I dont see the battle as a definate.
Originally posted by True_Blue
Anyways, number 2. I dont even see how in the world there would have been more Knights of the Thorn than WoHS. I mean most Knights of the Thorn were renegades, and there couldnt have been that many. The WoHS had a pure monopoly on arcande magic before the Chaos War. Even if some left or some renegades joined the Knights of the Thorn, there still had to be way more WoHS and they had to have had way more magical items. But I guess thats all speculation.
The problems for the WoHS when Grey Robes are concerned lies not so much in numbers, but in the fact that the Grey Robes are aided by the Skull Knights and the Lily Knights to form a rather intimidating war machine.
As for the development of the two different factions, well who´s to say what happens in the future? Another Ariakan might come along, bolstering the Knighthood and increasing their numbers greatly. But then again that might not happen...only time can tell.
That´s the tricky part about any post WoS discussions really...a few months have passed and the different factions are only starting to regroup after the war.
Ravenmantle
haha well.. I'll adress a few things at a time.
According to cannon, as Cam has stated,
"All wizards, renegade or no, draw on the arcane power that the gods of magic send into the world. "
True, and I've even stated as much. The moon gods provide magic all the time, so those attuned to it, can use it. The Thorn knights use this power IN ADDITION to the power granted by Tak. Read what I say, not what you want to hear.
This means that while Takhisis may provide some special abilities, she doesnt grant a "great deal of power".
I would think ANY power granted by the gods can be construed as a 'great deal of power'- ie more than a mortal would have on their own. Thorn knights get a boost of power from their patron deity, so I stand by this statement.
I think everyone can agree the main power of a wizard is in their spells. And the moon gods grant that. And god I hate when people sound condescending when they talk and say "You are free to change whatever you want in your campaign". I personally think people say stuff like that to belittle the other person because 99.9% of the people know they can change stuff.
And I'm to assume that your constant retorts with the same questions over and over after they've been answered is ignorance on your part. As for the accusation of condescension, your trite little 'heh's and 'ha-ha's speak volumes as well, mr 'kettle'. If you don't like a friendly suggestion on how to handle something that is canon and you obstinately disagree with, fine, but that doesn't require inciting a flame war like your apparently trying to do.
Anyways, number 2. I dont even see how in the world there would have been more Knights of the Thorn than WoHS. I mean most Knights of the Thorn were renegades, and there couldnt have been that many. The WoHS had a pure monopoly on arcande magic before the Chaos War. Even if some left or some renegades joined the Knights of the Thorn, there still had to be way more WoHS and they had to have had way more magical items. But I guess thats all speculation.
Read Wizard's Conclave. They had what, around 20-40 WoHS after a world-wide summoning of wizards? Not exactly overwhelming numbers. The Thorn knights learned sorcery. The armies of Takhisis were HUGE, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to take control of as much of Ansalon as they did. That size and the relative number of Thorn knights was where I proposed that the Thorn knights were more numerous than WoHS. That is where I came up with that assumption. Again, your free to disagree.
Number 3, to say that wizards will mow across any of the Knights of Takhisis that arent arcane spellcasters is just true fallocy. Even if you dont include Knights of the Skull (and I'm assuming you arent because yous aid non spellcasting), I just dont see it. They are Knights trained in battle. Do you automatically assume wizards can kill anything that doesnt have spells? Well that takes away from anyone playing fighters, barbarians, rogues, and such in your campaign or anything like it. I just find it amazing that anyone would think the WoHS would automatically win. Yea they might, but I dont see it as so clear cut. Also they do have Skull Knights also, I think clerics would help a lot in the battle. I force of Knights, Clerics and Wizards going against Wizards. I dont see the battle as a definate.
Well, Dalamar mowed down Kitiara with an errant lightning bolt, and Kitiara was one of the greatest dragon army generals, and fighters in Takhisis' army history. Low level wizards (ie campaign players) can and should get whupped by fighers. There is a certain threshold in experience though that when crossed, fighters abilities start to plateau, and wizards abilities start getting astronomically more powerful. A large unified group of high level spell casters could and should be able to decimate a large contingent of fighters. In a battle, would you rather be a fighter taking on 2-4 enemies in hand to hand combat, or a wizard firing off a spell from across a football field, taking out 30 or more enemies at once, while being shielded by a veritable shopping list of defensive spells (magic armor, globe of invulnerability, stoneskin, diamondskin, etc ad nauseum)? Plus, the clerics don't have Tak's support anymore, so they are a moot point. That was my point in the 'rolling over' the knights statement.
Originally posted by True_Blue
This means that while Takhisis may provide some special abilities, she doesnt grant a "great deal of power". I think everyone can agree the main power of a wizard is in their spells. And the moon gods grant that.
It isn't granted so much as it is provided to the world and unaligned wizards can make use of it. The focus, the refinement of that power in concert with a commitment to the moon gods, is what should typically be seen as being the source of higher levels of power.
It's unfortunate in some ways that we are limited by such things as prestige classes, feats and special abilities to shape something which is so easily framed in novel terms, but we can forgive the rules a little and adjust our points of view to suit. I think that's what most people do, after all. In the case of wizards of High Sorcery, their greater level of power, attained after they pass the Test, is a result of their dedication and loyalty to the gods of magic. We represent that with the WoHS class and moon magic, order secrets, the +1 spellcaster level progression, and so on.
In the case of the Thorn knights, all of those benefits come from Takhisis, not from the moon gods. She provides the diviner specialization, additional spell resources, special abilities, +1 spellcaster level progression, and so forth. That's why the Thorns were able to take on the WoHS, too - Takhisis was able to provide them with power despite their use of armor and weapons, traditionally exchewed by the WoHS, on top of actual spellcasting power. The WoHS had no idea how this was done, and why the Thorns were always at the peak of their game, and simply attributed it to drawing on all three moons.
The three moons theory has been abandoned by Margaret and current continuity, as it never made any real sense given the revelations since then. In lieu of that, and given that Takhisis has had a thing for giving wizards power in the past (Galan Dracos and Ariakas, for example) it seems only fitting that she flex her godly muscles in this method and circumvent even her own son in the process.
A renegade with high levels in the wizard class and no special prestige classes or feats is our classic example of a very experienced dabbler. He's continued to draw on the broadcast power of the moons without aligning himself with them, so he's missing out on some benefits. By rights, he probably shouldn't have advanced as far as he has without taking the Test, but we can't do that in the game. We need to allow it, so we respond by instituting PrCs and other rules mechanics to differentiate Joe Archmage from Joe Conclave Guy.
Hope this is continuing to make sense! It's one of my favorite subjects, so it's good to be able to articulate it.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by frostdawn
[b]QUOTE]Originally posted by True_Blue
Read Wizard's Conclave. They had what, around 20-40 WoHS after a world-wide summoning of wizards? Not exactly overwhelming numbers. The Thorn knights learned sorcery. The armies of Takhisis were HUGE, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to take control of as much of Ansalon as they did. That size and the relative number of Thorn knights was where I proposed that the Thorn knights were more numerous than WoHS.
We have to remember that the Knights of Takhisis were largly confined to Storm´s Keep. This stronghold was the home of all three orders, their training grounds, storage facilities, laboratries, temples and so on and forth. In addition several dragons also inhabitated the small island. This factor greatly limits the numbers. Of course there were many but they couldn´t raise HUGE armies consisting entirely of Knights. Add to that the fact that the Knights of the Thorn was the smallest order of the three (the Thorn Knigts´ tower was the smaller of the three towers).
I´m not saying there were few knights, but the success of their campaigns came not merely from numbers (the tactics employed by goblinoid races) but also from the element of surprise, the general state Ansalon was in (recuperating from a previous war), the lack of faith in their existance by the leaders of the other factions and their unusual view on honor and discipline (not seen before in forces of evil). They also enlisted the aid of the Brutes.
Furthermore we have to remember that much of the territory controlled by the Knights of Neraka in the 5th Age were given to them by the Dragon Overlords through diplomatic negotiations.
As for the canon thing...well the source of the Grey Robes´ magical powers doesn´t really have a great impact on the story so in my mind it´s "OK" to use alternate examples. I´m saying this because I usually use canon material myself.
Ravenmantle
Edit: Guys guys...please don´t turn this into a personal battle...the focus here should be the Grey Robes and their magic.
Maybe I'm trying to turn Dragonlance into Forgotten Realms, but its so much easier when Mystara controls the Weave. I liked it when I thought the moon gods controlled the magic because it really was balanced...there's a good, neutral, and evil god all trying to balance things out.
Now, any god who wants could theoretically grant their worshippers arcane magic. That is very annoying. Thats the point of clerics, they get sent spells by their patron god. I realize that so far no others have decided to grant arcane spells, but what prevents them from doing so? Nothing. And why in the world wouldnt you, if you were a god. Everyone can talk about balance all they want, but balance isnt static. Balance is maintained by things swinging from side to side. So you can say good gods respect balance, but I could even see a couple of them deciding (for the greater good) that their worshippers should get arcane spells from them. "Their followers will use them right...". Not all good gods are sitting around worrying about the balance so much(at least not in my opinion). Thats why there are neutral gods. And now evil gods, what in the world do they care. They want to rule the world, or whatever else. I could see Sargonnas giving arcane magic to the minotaurs because they are "his chosen". Why should some moon god have dominion over his chosen, when he can just give them access himself and therefore they are totoally under his control.
You could say they dont have the power, or whatever else..but its still theoretically possible and that just makes me itch. If takhisis could find the way to do it, so can the others. And I personally believe that arcane magic should only be focused, givin, whatever by the moon gods.
Originally posted by frostdawn
To Ravenmantle and True_Blue- I apologize if my suggestion to tweak the rules in your campaigns came off as being condescending.
Baah! No need to apologize! In my mind it wasn´t condescending. Unnecessary perhaps (I´ve heard the suggestion before ;)) but not condescending
Ravenmantle
Has been a good argument, just seems like most things I post on end up being with sorcery, and if they arent somehow it gets turned to that heh.
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
As for the canon thing...well the source of the Grey Robes´ magical powers doesn´t really have a great impact on the story so in my mind it´s "OK" to use alternate examples. I´m saying this because I usually use canon material myself.
Ravenmantle
Edit: Guys guys...please don´t turn this into a personal battle...the focus here should be the Grey Robes and their magic.
Not a problem, and again, no offense to the campaign tweak suggestion. Besides your right, it is a rather minor thing that only true fans argue about anyway. :D Bebate on! Huzzah!
True_Blue- I agree with you in that I don't like the gods mucking with magic for wizards either. Stupid Takhisis. Grrr. ;)
Originally posted by True_Blue
As I said before, I just don't like the fact that the gods can all grant magic to their followers if they want. Takhisis providing magic just bugs the crap out of me. I can accept the fact that she gives them special powers, but to me, wizardry is the domain of the moon gods, thats their point.
Takhisis is not "granting wizardry" to the grey robes. Anyone can use magic...it's not granted by the gods. All Takhisis is doing is complimenting their powers much like the Moon gods do. I think any god can do this...but they won't because magic is the domain of Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari...the other gods won't do it becasue they follow the rules (as far as this sort of thing is concerned). By the same token, I believe that the Moon Gods could technically have clerics, but by the same rules (most likely in the Tobril) they grant only wizardry powers. But as we've seen time and again, Takhisis has no problem breaking the rules, doing things her own way, and doing things she should not, by rule of the High God, be doing.
That is why the Grey Robes were such an abomination. They were more than just Renegades. And, they whooped up on the most powerful figures of the Conclave. What Takhisis was doing was very bad, and had things progressed normally (ie, she had not stolen the world) I believe the other gods would have stepped in and done something about it. As it was...they were too busy at the time to be bother by such things...all of them, that is except the three cousins, since it effected them directly.
To me, it makes no sense that the Grey Robes were drawing their extra power from "all three moons." The gods of magic can stem the flow of magic from their moon to whomever they wish. They cannot stop a mortal from casting a spell (hence why there are Renegades), but they can keep the enhanced power from them. So why would they allow the Grey Robes to draw from all of them? It defies logic, to me...which is probably why that explination has been retconned.
Now this might be sort of a sidetrack so bear with me. I really dont ever see the gods of evil as concerned about balance. If they were they would never actively seek out to rule the world because that would go against the balance if they ruled the world forever. It would be evil all the time. And if people say well that wouldnt happen because it would correct itself by the very nature of the Balance, than evil gods are kind of screwed, so are good gods. They might as well not try to do anything because if the world gets too good or too evil, it will automatically swing the other way and attempt to balance. I never saw the Balance as a given, I've always seen it as something neutral's strive for because they see it as the optimal thing. Good gods and characters want the world to be good, eventually everyone having a good heart and doing good deeds. Evil gods and characters want to rule the world and own it, so to speak.
Now, as I said before, this might be just me, but I see the evil gods mainly as not caring about anything. Takhisis made a bid several times for the world and broke the "rules" and eventually died because of it. But I seriously think Chemosh, Sargonnas, etc would too...if they seriously thought they could get away with it. So maybe Chemosh wants all the undead to only get their powers form him, so he tries to grant a little arcane magic, or the +1 level as I'll refer to it. Sargonas wants the whole might of the minotaurs, so he starts to give the +1 level to his minotaurs so they arent under the "whimpy laws of those humans" or whatever.
And again, I never really thought of the grey robes as getting powers from Takhisis. I have always treated them like any other renegade. Whatever the rules thata pply to renegades, apply to them. The onyl difference is that they were in the service of Takhisis.
I realize maybe its just me, since everyone else seems to "get it". But it just annoys the hell out of me.
Originally posted by True_Blue
And again, I never really thought of the grey robes as getting powers from Takhisis. I have always treated them like any other renegade. Whatever the rules thata pply to renegades, apply to them. The onyl difference is that they were in the service of Takhisis.
I realize maybe its just me, since everyone else seems to "get it". But it just annoys the hell out of me.
Well I agree with you. I see the arguments made by the other posters in this thread, but I´m going in the same direction as you. In my campaigns the Grey Robes are considered renegades in every sense of the word. Renegades who worship Takhisis and who have been successful in finding ways of enhancing their powers (probably through extensive research done while the rest of the Knighthood trained military maneuvers)
What a fine debate this has been!
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by True_Blue
I really dont ever see the gods of evil as concerned about balance.
Nor do I. I do think the gods of Good do, though. Because unlike you, I think the Balance will be maintained just because of the nature of the Dragonlance cosmos.
The difference is...just because it "will" be maintained, doesn't mean the gods would just give up and sulk. I see the gods as basically an entity manifestation of specific mortal traits...and that's just what they are. Like Sargonnas...he is Vengence. It makes no difference to him if logic dictates he not seek it (for one reason or another). I see the gods as very single minded...at least the evil gods.
The difference, between them and the gods of good is that I think all good gods share at least one trait with each other, compassion. That compassion tempers their single minded natures a little. Just enough to make them concerned, occasionaly, for what their actions my cause. The Kingpriest is the best example of this. It was not good for the world to allow the Kingpriest to do what he did...but up until the very end, Paladine continued granting his prayers.
Originally posted by True_Blue
Takhisis made a bid several times for the world and broke the "rules" and eventually died because of it. But I seriously think Chemosh, Sargonnas, etc would too...if they seriously thought they could get away with it.
Here's where we differ slightly. Although I don't really think the extreme gods (good and evil) ascribe to the doctrine of Balance, per se, I don't see them following the rules set down in the Tobril by the High God as an issue of Balance...I see it as something different. And, the way the other gods are portrayed...it seems to me that Takhisis is really the only deity willing to defy the High God's rules of the cosmos. But, that's just my take on it...most of what I've been spouting in the past few posts aren't really canonical views...they're my own ramblings and understandings of the workings of the Dragonlance world. It is how I view it that allows me to sleep at night. heh heh
Originally posted by True_Blue
I realize maybe its just me, since everyone else seems to "get it". But it just annoys the hell out of me.
LOL! Hey, I understand where you're coming from on that point. If nothing else...look at the good debate it has sparked. :D
Originally posted by Brimstone
And, the way the other gods are portrayed...it seems to me that Takhisis is really the only deity willing to defy the High God's rules of the cosmos.
Exactly. Circumventing the rules and defying the way things work in order to achieve dominance and further her plans is Takhisis' schtick. She's lawful evil, a tyrant and a manipulator and a thoroughly untrustworthy person. She knows there are rules and there are laws, but she doesn't think they're particularly good ones - she'd rather replace them with her own. Pulling the wool over other's eyes and betraying them, using them, or otherwise just ruining their lives is in her nature. It'd be impossible for her to play nice for very long.
Cheers,
Cam
Now you also brought up that maybe the rules arent exactly the Balance. When Takhisis stole the world, the High god did nothing. When Takhisis gave the +1 to wizards, apparantly is against the rules, the High God did nothing. So if the Balance isnt the reason that the gods are following the rules, the High God part really perplexes me. If I was sargonass I would definately give the +1 to my magic users. I mean whats the chances another god will sacrifice themselves to even out me being taken away?
Now this discussion has turned to gods, but it happens heh,
Originally posted by True_Blue
Now you also brought up that maybe the rules arent exactly the Balance. When Takhisis stole the world, the High god did nothing.
I wouldn't say that. How convenient was it that 40 years later, a kender and the Master of Past and Present manage to do enough that the other gods can track her down before she completes her ultimate plan, leading finally to her death?
There's your High God's law in action.
Cheers,
Cam
I'll try and address the issues one at a time as I see them.
First...the gods will continue to do what they do because that's what they are. I just described it as "single minded" although that's not what it is, really. Sargonnas is vengence...period. Takhisis is evil. Hiddulkel is greed. I really don't know how else to describe it. It makes sense to me. :D
The Balance works because the gods are what they are. They can't not do what they do. I don't know...I had a nice long disseratation a while back on the nature of Balance and how the gods work (in my "Cataclysm" thread). I view the gods in very abstract forms...you can't treat them as human or mortal. Sometimes they act very mortal to mortals...but I don't believe their true selves are that way. A big clue to this, for me, was the way it was described when Paladine became mortal. All the "feelings." I don't know, TB...I really can't describe it. I think it's just sort of a "you just have to accept it" method for me.
The High God did nothing because He does nothing directly. He set down the rules...that's all. There is only one time He directly intervened, and that was before recorded Krynn history...and that's because the gods were about to destroy the world, the cosmos, and themselves.
I don't know...I think I've argued all that I can. It's very difficult to explain how I view the DL gods. I view them more as manifestations of morals or ideals (or ideas)...who can occasionally act human if it suits their purpose...but that is not their true being. I don't like thinking of the DL gods like the Greek pantheon...they were basically just glorified humans, mostly.
Paladine wants to help his children, so does Mishakel. Kiri-jolith thanks that with his insight and his warrior/clerics that he can bring good to the world by defeating evil. Sargonnas wants his minotaurs to take over the world and run it. Tahkisis sees herself as the rightful queen and tries to make this happen. Gilean is worried about the balance and is interested in all histroy as it happens. I see them more as personalities than your "single-mindedness". But maybe some of this is from reading too much Forgotton Realms heh.
I'm really liking the way Eberron does their gods and clergy. I think its revolutionary. I thought of something like it awhile back, but never figured out how to implement it.
I can agree to disagree how we see the gods. Your way may actually be better, just because it seems to go along with what everyone else says. Its still going to be hard to just accept it though heh.
Personally, I never really consider the High God as doing anything. I dont attribute anything really to his doing, except I guess the one time when they almost blasted existance. I think it adds a little bit more drama to the setting and the people's lives when there is no "well everything will work out in the end". Total cataclysm or annhilation, could be, if you dont watch your backs and try to avoid it
Originally posted by slayergirl
Though I suspect the WoHS can do little to strike against them so long as they remain within the protection of the entire KoN organization.
Right. In fact, the Thorn Knights are the largest body of organized sorcerers and users of wild magic on Ansalon at present. I believe Kalrakin and Lothar were ex-Thorn knights (though they're more than a little degenerate).
Cheers,
Cam
In the case of the Thorn knights, all of those benefits come from Takhisis, not from the moon gods. She provides the diviner specialization, additional spell resources, special abilities, +1 spellcaster level progression, and so forth. That's why the Thorns were able to take on the WoHS, too - Takhisis was able to provide them with power despite their use of armor and weapons, traditionally exchewed by the WoHS, on top of actual spellcasting power. The WoHS had no idea how this was done, and why the Thorns were always at the peak of their game, and simply attributed it to drawing on all three moons.
If Takhisis provides the diviner specialization, spell resources, special abilities, and the spellcaster progression pre-war-of-chaos.....who provides it now? I mean, post war-of-souls, they still get those benefits, by the book, sorcerer and wizard alike (because it states that while sorcerers are the prevalent magic users, wizards still exist in the ranks of the knighthood).
Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
If Takhisis provides the diviner specialization, spell resources, special abilities, and the spellcaster progression pre-war-of-chaos.....who provides it now? I mean, post war-of-souls, they still get those benefits, by the book, sorcerer and wizard alike (because it states that while sorcerers are the prevalent magic users, wizards still exist in the ranks of the knighthood).
Technically, nobody grants it to them - they've acquired the means as sorcerers to duplicate it. That's part of their mastery of the darker arts of wild magic during the Age of Mortals. Theo Drawde, the head of the Order, was responsible for bringing stolen information to the Thorn knights in order to restore their power, which had been lost for 20 years after the Chaos War. This, coupled with assistance from the Skull knights, helped them regain the majority of those benefits without the presence of Takhisis.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I wouldn't imagine there are any wizards in the ranks of the Thorns now. If there were, I don't think they'd be able to recover their additional Thorn knight benefits. Not unless they got help from somewhere else.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Theo Drawde, the head of the Order, was responsible for bringing stolen information to the Thorn knights in order to restore their power, which had been lost for 20 years after the Chaos War.
Where does this name come from? I´m not doubting you I just really really really wanna know!
Ravenmantle