Okay, I've inherited a D&D game; former DM's no longer there, long story. Point is, the long term goal for this campaign is to destroy Iuz.
Now, this is my first Greyhawk game, and I don't know the world-specifics that well yet. My question is, of all the people on this board, has anyone ever killed/destroyed Iuz? If so, how did you do it? How did the DM stat Iuz out? What worked, what didn't?
Help appreciated!
I am not really familiar with Greyhawk either. But what I know is: Iuz is a demi god, so let yourself be inspired by something like Gods and Demigods. So your players should really be Epic level or at least 20th level to defeat Iuz. And the even more difficult task should be to make him stay dead!
But of course if you like, you can make him "just" a mighty daemon with a CR of about 20 to 25 depending on your players`levels...
This is what I would do, hope it helps.
My suggestion is to get inspiration in the first edition treatment of Iuz, so that your players can have a chance. As a matter of fact Iuz presence in Greyhawk under 3rd edition rules is odd at best. If a demigod was supposed to be invincible, I don't believe that the designers (Gygax in that case) would allow him to be the ruler of an empire in the Prime Material Plane.
Originally posted by Monteblanco
My suggestion is to get inspiration in the first edition treatment of Iuz, so that your players can have a chance. As a matter of fact Iuz presence in Greyhawk under 3rd edition rules is odd at best. If a demigod was supposed to be invincible, I don't believe that the designers (Gygax in that case) would allow him to be the ruler of an empire in the Prime Material Plane.
Get Deities & Demigods and hunt down a copy of the Living Greyhawk Journal that has the stats of Iuz as a demi-god in 3rd ed.
He's defeatable with a 20th-level party if you allow them an artifact or two. Personally, that's how I'd do it. Have an adventure around the fact that the only way they can defeat him is by using a couple of artifacts and have them hunt for those devices with Iuz on their tail (through his Boneheart minions of course). I'd suggest an artifact of St. Cuthbert and maybe Pelor or Heironeous, or heck, even Mayaheine.
If you intend to use Epic levels, then I'd say he could be defeated by a 25th-level party with a few epic items under their belts.
Originally posted by Tilo
Okay, I've inherited a D&D game; former DM's no longer there, long story. Point is, the long term goal for this campaign is to destroy Iuz.
Now, this is my first Greyhawk game, and I don't know the world-specifics that well yet. My question is, of all the people on this board, has anyone ever killed/destroyed Iuz? If so, how did you do it? How did the DM stat Iuz out? What worked, what didn't?
Help appreciated!
If you go with his 3E stats and the way one deals with a demigod's death (as per the Deities & Demigods accessory), I would suggest adding a wee bit of "GH flavor" to it.
To do that, one has to remember two facts about Iuz:
1) His soul gem is hidden somewhere in the Abyss, so even if destroyed, he will be back after a while
2) The infamous Soul Husks caverns in the Howling Hills hold the key to Iuz's power. Destroy the 6 chrysalises hidden there and watch Iuz kiss good-bye to a good part of his powers
To do that, one has to remember two facts about Iuz:
1) His soul gem is hidden somewhere in the Abyss, so even if destroyed, he will be back after a while
2) The infamous Soul Husks caverns in the Howling Hills hold the key to Iuz's power. Destroy the 6 chrysalises hidden there and watch Iuz kiss good-bye to a good part of his powers
Okay, sounds sensible. Are there any sourccebooks in print on this? I live in Germany, and finding out of print items tends to be a little tricky.
Get Deities & Demigods and hunt down a copy of the Living Greyhawk Journal that has the stats of Iuz as a demi-god in 3rd ed.
He's defeatable with a 20th-level party if you allow them an artifact or two. Personally, that's how I'd do it. Have an adventure around the fact that the only way they can defeat him is by using a couple of artifacts and have them hunt for those devices with Iuz on their tail (through his Boneheart minions of course). I'd suggest an artifact of St. Cuthbert and maybe Pelor or Heironeous, or heck, even Mayaheine.
Hm, which journal is that? Do you have the number?
Thanks!
His stats can be found in Dragon issue #294 which you could get on ebay (since, apparently, Paizo doesn’t offer it for sale).
Back in 2E, a team of high level players in my campaign managed to destroy him (for a short while anyway) by using the major power of the Red Orb of Dragonkind (from the 2E Book of Artifacts) to turn Dorakaa into a lava lake. Needless to say, the Old One wasn’t happy about it
Nowadays, I would send a party of Epic-level characters down the Howling Hills to destroy the Soul Husks. That should get Iuz’s attention :D
Originally posted by Mortepierre
To do that, one has to remember two facts about Iuz:
1) His soul gem is hidden somewhere in the Abyss, so even if destroyed, he will be back after a while
2) The infamous Soul Husks caverns in the Howling Hills hold the key to Iuz's power. Destroy the 6 chrysalises hidden there and watch Iuz kiss good-bye to a good part of his powers
Good call!
I forgot all about that. Was that all in Iuz the Evil or was that detailed elsewhere? I seem to recall an early module that had something about these things. Also, wasn't Philidor involved somehow? Or did he just set up the blue orbs in the Vesve?
According to J.Z index, that's the only place one can find info about the Soul Husks.
Philidor was involved only inasmuch as he knew what they are and where they are hidden. Given their level of protection, even Mordenkainen would think twice about trying to reach them :D
Information on the Soul Husks can be found in the WGR5 Iuz the Evil. You can get it here easily.
His stats can be found in Dragon issue #294 which you could get on ebay (since, apparently, Paizo doesn’t offer it for sale).
O-kay! That helps. Thank you!
He ultimately benefitted in terms of power. His "death" sent him to the Abyss where he managed to possess one of his father Graz'zt's babau guards and he was able to entrap his father's soul in a magical dagger (stabbing him in the back). He seized control of Azzagrat and with the resulting gain in stature achieved lesser god status. But it was a bitter victory for him because as a lesser god with a realm in the Abyss, the rest of the pantheon no longer felt any reason to allow him to be physically present on Oerth and so now he could only govern his realm and servants from the planes like any other god.
Um, yeah; the above was a 'reader's digest' version.
It took about 8 sessions to actually accomplish.
2. Killing Iuz. The 3rd-ed write up I saw in DRAGON has Iuz as a 20-HD outsider - plus Cleric 20, plus Assassin 10 and a couple of Divine Ranks. Iuz has the common divine ability of being able to perceive what his worshippers perceive (should he so choose) and even to hear himself being spoken of: so unless your players have Mordenkainen's private sanctum up, or they've been careful to refer to their adversary simply as "you know who", he's liable to know all about their little plot. Imagine what he'll do with THAT information. (And remember, he may be very very powerful, but he'd prefer to destroy them as cruelly as possible!)
3. A last note. The usual 3rd-ed mindset is "the PCs deserve to live." Deserve? Forget that. They're trying to destroy a demigod - they'd better be willing to - no, EXPECT to die in the process. I'm not saying you should doom 'em beforehand: I'm saying that the odds against success should be good. Too many stories equate "the end of the story" with "success." If only two of your guys make it back after their disastrous defeat - well, that's still a great story. Plus it will give the DM a warm feeling inside.
So, Iuz is central to the setting, as published. That doesn't make it good or immutable. Does Iuz make GH better or worse for his presence?
To the extent he dominates other villians, and he does, I would say he makes GH worse. Circa 594CY, the Scarlet Brotherhood is a bad joke - unsuccessful conquers, the secret society everybody now knows about - the Horned Society has potential but it is undeveloped, Turrosh Mak was and is a bad joke. Vecna is a god and can't interfere directly. Ivid is missing in action. Rary is about the only new villain on the block who can be taken seriously and his "villainy" is subject to much speculation.
Iuz is like the loud, obnoxious party guest who, stinking drunk, won't leave and insists on telling the same story over and over - "And then, I says to Eclavdra, I says, 'Grazzt and Iggwilv can kiss...' wait, where was I, oh yeah! I am destined to conquer the Fleas! No wait, I mean the Flanease! What!?! No. Don't get started on Vecna! Hey! You got any more Soul Husks in the Fridge? I could go for another."
Somebody call this guy a cab.
GVD
Iuz is a diety with his home plane as Oerth, the world of Greyhawk. If you slay Iuz, he will reform after awhile on Oerth because this is his home. This is an extremely important part of the Greyhawk campaign and what makes it fairly unique. To permanently slay a diety, you would need to have a special Artifact (or a collection of them) and/or Epic Level magic items (essentially artifacts) as well as being some of the most potent heroes on Oerth. There would likely be certain plot devices and exact timing and deception needed to get Iuz to fall into the players "trap", because no diety is going risk his existance if he thinks there is a chance he might be destroyed.
In 1st edition, Lloth the Demon Spider Goddess only allowed the PCs to come to her home plane because she was overconfident about personally destroying them (and they stood in the way of her Oerth invasion). Iuz has had time to grow compared to Lloth, had never suffered a temporary death to recover from, and has many more allies and temporal power than Lloth ever had. Most of his power comes from he being on his "home plane" and his extensive knowledge of Oerth (powers, artifacts, secrets, locations) and his Oerth allies and followers are close at hand!
Greyhawk is a world in while heroes and villians very rarely get above 20th. And if they do they almost always get sidelined by dieties of Oerth, "taken out of play" if they were a player character) Such potent characters, it seems are only allowed to indirectly affect things or to work the rare grand scheme that works as a test of the world's Balance. If these super-powers are ever successful then the World of Greyhawk changes greatly, so these plots and schemes are almost always unsuccessful, but make for good stories and adventures. Many of these great oerth heroes and villians (would be Epic level in the new D&D rules) either become reclusive undead (i.e. lich) or become demi-gods, or almost-gods, like Zagyg, Iuz, St. Cuthbert, Mayaheine, Iggwilv, Heward, Murylund, Acerak, Vecna.
Iuz's mother is an extremely powerful human necromancer named Iggwilv. His father, Grazz't, is a powerful demon prince (master of at least 1 abyssal layers) that was briefly summoned to Oerth and bound by Iggwilv. Iggwilv supposedly lost a lot a power (100s of years ago) when her demon-lover broke free of her magical binding, but the only thing that is known for sure is she has not been heard of in a long time. She is now legendary (like other "forgotten powers" that Oertheans hope will never return) but the sages of Oerth fear she is just regaining her power for a titanic return to Oerth. It is very likely that Iuz fears his mother's return, but might enjoy the chance to destroy her once and for all because Iggwilv no longer has her political connections or armies on Oerth (all the benefits that Iuz now enjoys).
It would be very much in the spirit of of Greyhaw to have heroes make unlikely allies with one evil or another in order to gain the tools necessary to defeat a great evil. Evil powers would know their own weaknesses better than anyone else, and could offer that knowledge if they can benefit from it without being threatened.
I just wanted to mention that show that the Greyhawk campaign is largely about gods and super-powers have a hard time staying in a dominant position. PC heroes, or other quasi-deities always seems to interfere to maintain a Balance of Power by knocking down someone before they get too powerful.
Long before the Wars could happen, Iuz was seen as a growing threat so Zagig imprisoned him. This definately pushed back the timeline of the Greyhawk Wars that would change the continent.
Iuz helped build up the Temple of Elemental Evil near Verbobonc in order to keep the attention of the Good Lands away from his borders. Iuz needed time to build his armies and deal with the Horned Society (Evil) that was a major thorn to him at the time.
The forces of good (mainly the Kingdom of Furyondy and Nyrond) were getting too strong, so the forces of Evil (Iuz, Scarlet Brotherhood, Aerdi Kindgom) started the Greyhawk Wars to expand their own power base (which counter-acted the forces of Good).
3. A last note. The usual 3rd-ed mindset is "the PCs deserve to live." Deserve? Forget that. They're trying to destroy a demigod - they'd better be willing to - no, EXPECT to die in the process. I'm not saying you should doom 'em beforehand: I'm saying that the odds against success should be good. Too many stories equate "the end of the story" with "success." If only two of your guys make it back after their disastrous defeat - well, that's still a great story. Plus it will give the DM a warm feeling inside.
Depends on how they plan. I will give them the chance to get out of it with only two casualties, assuming they plan well. Considering what they did last session, it's unlikely they'll manage it.
2. Killing Iuz. The 3rd-ed write up I saw in DRAGON has Iuz as a 20-HD outsider - plus Cleric 20, plus Assassin 10 and a couple of Divine Ranks. Iuz has the common divine ability of being able to perceive what his worshippers perceive (should he so choose) and even to hear himself being spoken of: so unless your players have Mordenkainen's private sanctum up, or they've been careful to refer to their adversary simply as "you know who", he's liable to know all about their little plot. Imagine what he'll do with THAT information. (And remember, he may be very very powerful, but he'd prefer to destroy them as cruelly as possible!)
Of course!
In my old campaign, the characters did a 'four cross'. That's a double, double cross. Made a deal with Graz'zt to defeat Iuz. Betrayed Graz'zt by making a deal with Asmodeus. Left the two locked in mortal combat.
Interesting.
He ultimately benefitted in terms of power. His "death" sent him to the Abyss where he managed to possess one of his father Graz'zt's babau guards and he was able to entrap his father's soul in a magical dagger (stabbing him in the back). He seized control of Azzagrat and with the resulting gain in stature achieved lesser god status. But it was a bitter victory for him because as a lesser god with a realm in the Abyss, the rest of the pantheon no longer felt any reason to allow him to be physically present on Oerth and so now he could only govern his realm and servants from the planes like any other god.
Huh, also an idea. But the idea of this is to get rid if Iuz permanently, and they players already know a few things about how the god-plane-worshippers thing works.
Well, I'll give them the chance to do it, then we'll see what happends. Ta!
Originally posted by GV Dammerung
One of the things I think is very, very wrong with GH is the overreliance on Iuz as always available bad guy. He is cliche. I use him as a red herring because players are so willing to see Iuz behind everything.
So, Iuz is central to the setting, as published. That doesn't make it good or immutable. Does Iuz make GH better or worse for his presence?
To the extent he dominates other villians, and he does, I would say he makes GH worse. Circa 594CY, the Scarlet Brotherhood is a bad joke - unsuccessful conquers, the secret society everybody now knows about - the Horned Society has potential but it is undeveloped, Turrosh Mak was and is a bad joke. Vecna is a god and can't interfere directly. Ivid is missing in action. Rary is about the only new villain on the block who can be taken seriously and his "villainy" is subject to much speculation.
Iuz is like the loud, obnoxious party guest who, stinking drunk, won't leave and insists on telling the same story over and over - "And then, I says to Eclavdra, I says, 'Grazzt and Iggwilv can kiss...' wait, where was I, oh yeah! I am destined to conquer the Fleas! No wait, I mean the Flanease! What!?! No. Don't get started on Vecna! Hey! You got any more Soul Husks in the Fridge? I could go for another."
Somebody call this guy a cab.
:bounce:
Originally posted by GV Dammerung
Iuz is like the loud, obnoxious party guest who, stinking drunk, won't leave and insists on telling the same story over and over - "And then, I says to Eclavdra, I says, 'Grazzt and Iggwilv can kiss...' wait, where was I, oh yeah! I am destined to conquer the Fleas! No wait, I mean the Flanease! What!?! No. Don't get started on Vecna! Hey! You got any more Soul Husks in the Fridge? I could go for another."
Somebody call this guy a cab.
GVD [/b]
Also, call him "Eee-ooz", instead of "Eye-ooz". He hates that.
This is in sharp contrast to the Forgotten Realms where Epic characters litter the landscape, mostly sitting around picking their noses (those that still have noses).
Zagyg can't be bothered with Iuz because he's having a grand old time running extraplanar errands for Boccob, often in the company of his near-divine cronies.
However, this touches an important point. Zagyg & Co., possibly the most powerful adventuring party ever assembled (for the gods' sakes, their cleric was an avatar of St Cuthbert!!) forced their way into Dorakaa and kidnapped Iuz so that Zagyg could use him as a guinea pig.
If you choose to extend your Greyhawk campaigns into the Epic levels then you should indeed consider taking on Iuz. Just remember that Epic PC's aren't like lower-level PC's. They don't go out bashing baddies because some loser aristocrat tells them to. The Overking of Aerdy could have tried issuing marching orders to Zagyg, he probably would have been turned into a Cirque de Soleil contortionist (of the opposite gender) in response.
Epic PC's a likely to be more self-motivated and less interested in politics. They are people who can take on the Boneheart the way that low-level PC's faced kobolds. And such an adventure will almost certainly spill over into the planes where the PC"s will probably lose interest in ever hanging around Oerth again (gods know Zagyg, Muryland, Keoghtom and Heward haven't).
It could be great fun and part of a quest for divine ascension.
Epic PC's a likely to be more self-motivated and less interested in politics.
Well, my guys are completely self-motivated. The whole campaign is. The former DM arranged it so that one of the characters is nothing special really, but there's a prophecy attached to him and Iuz is after him. So we were in deep trouble already by the time I took over. Iuz won't stop hunting prophecy boy, so, well, either they get rid of Iuz or Iuz is going to get lucky.
Luckily they all like the PC...
Originally posted by Kar-Vermin
Death to those who double-post! Err, wait a minute...
oops, I started to open fire...sorry about the bullet holes in your chest...
:embarrass
Originally posted by Gadodel
oops, I started to open fire...sorry about the bullet holes in your chest...
:embarrass
Gaaargh...Cleric!
Anyhoo, back to the topic at hand. I honestly find the idea of being able to slaughter the Old One permanently a little hard-to-swallow, even for Epic characters (they might have the raw power to do so, but he's going to know about them long in advance). If they're really considering this deed, there's probably going to be a retributive strike coming at them beforehand.
Happy Gaming.
The bad would fade... --> in DL, the age of Istar and Aurim was the consequence of that attempt. You would simply have to develop a new world of Greyhawk, much less evil... and that's great thing to do.
I would not do it because this could be a handicap for any further campaign in Oerth - you never know when the Old One could come in handy...
In any case, a character tough enough to kill Iuz would be unbearable for me as a DM - this class of people will sooner or later start to play birthright style and begin shaping Oerth like they want it.
The point is, you will have to do a LOT of world - engineering if you want to kill a god and so disturb the supernatural balance. I as a DM would try to evade such tremendous consequences.
Let them banish Iuz - so they don't have to be that strong AND you can use him whenever you want by bringing him back someway.
If GH cannot be imagined without Iuz, I think the setting is being sold way short.
So saying, you need not "kill" Iuz.
You can imprison Iuz.
You can ascend him to lesser godhood, ala Vecna.
You can drastically cut back Iuz' empire, confining him to a much smaller area.
IMO, Iuz too much seen to be taken seriously. All the great villains/nemisis wax and wane. Moriarty, Dr. Doom, Q, Blofeld, name your genre. Smart authors don't keep going to the well and smart authors, when they do reuse villains keep the villain interesting by changing the villain's circumstances. The villain's position is not guaranteed.
Moriarty goes to jail, and for a time is no longer a threat.
Dr. Doom is desposed in Latvaria and his threat is greatly reduced.
Q loses his powers, is thrown out by the Continum etc.
Blofeld is apparently killed.
If the villain is a constant, the villain is a cartoon, a joke and ultimately ineffective in any serious way. Any villain who is a constant becomes by turns cliche, over-exposed and cheesy. Iuz is no exception.
In the GH story arc, Iuz was imprisoned, then freed, then conquered an empire and presently holds that empire, albeit with difficulty since almost all the fiends were banished. Iuz has waxed.
Now, it is time for him to wane. All good villains get defeated. They may come back but they get defeated. Statis is simply not an option in anything other than a cartoon, and not even in the better of cartoons.
Iuz has had a good run. Now, it time for heroes to take him down. He may be back; he may not. But he won't be a joke this way.
IMO
GVD
Not to mention that if Iuz did fall permanently, there would be plenty of others to replace him as a major threat.
Wastri for one could become must nastier with his "down with the non-humans" creed.
The Pale could become the worst example of an intolerant society in history (inquisition anyone?)
The Horned Society lurks in the shadows, ready for a come-back.
In short, I don't think Iuz "needs" to exist for WoG to go on. Besides, even a certain elven seer has hinted that he would be gone some day...
Besides, even a certain elven seer has hinted that he would be gone some day...
Whaaat? Really? Who, how did it happen, what circumstances? And where can I find the material? Please?
It just seems like he has to be taken down a notch or three. He's too powerful and he holds too much territory, he's bound to cause major problems sooner or later.
As for killing him, I've always felt he must be 'cheating' somehow. He may be gaining power from external source, or he somehow is preventing celestial forces from confronting him.
I'm thinking maybe a journey into Hell to shut off his infernal powerstation, or maybe killing mom and/or dad would be helpful.
I'm also toying with the idea of the PCs having to become divine heros, but I'm not sure how that would work. Is there any precedence for a whole adventuring group becoming hero-deities at the same time? Any standard way of becoming one?
Originally posted by Tilo
Whaaat? Really? Who, how did it happen, what circumstances? And where can I find the material? Please?
High Priestess Calandryen (of Labelas Enoreth) of the Timeless Tree (Vesve)
WGR4 The Marklands
page 53
second column
first paragraph
Got to love her quote .. :D
Originally posted by Elendur
I'm also toying with the idea of the PCs having to become divine heros, but I'm not sure how that would work. Is there any precedence for a whole adventuring group becoming hero-deities at the same time? Any standard way of becoming one?
Yeah, it's called Zagyg, Keoghtom, Murlyland and Heward. Okay, I'm fudging a little. Zagyg became a demigod not long after. The others have been moving up gradually since then. But the point is what I touched on earlier.
Going all the way back to 1E when I've played in Greyhawk we always followed what was a logical progression (driven by the modules of those days) towards greater extraplanar adventure, awesome magic and cool stuff. It wasn't until sometime in 2E that somebody decided that Greyhawk was a "low-level" setting for adventures.
The aspiration to divine status is not an unhealthy motivator of adventures, and certainly better than gold pieces.
High Priestess Calandryen (of Labelas Enoreth) of the Timeless Tree
Hey, cool... this ties in well with what's going down in the campaign. Ta!
In my campaign, the Crook of Rao banished all of the devils and angels. This has had some serious impact on the world.
Many of the more militant do-gooders have decided that this is now the perfect time to restart hostilities, only covertly this time. The have adopted the tactics of the Scarlet Brotherhood and begun to sow even more confusion and chaos in the lands of Iuz.
It would not be a stretch for a party to take it into their heads that this is probably the weakest Iuz is going to be for a good long time and so is the best opportunity they will get to off the Old One.
My question: should I just let a high level NPC party knock him off and let my current party deal with the fall-out or should I create a campaign around this and make the party the heroes of the story?
Option one is appealing- it shows the world is dynamic with other people not standing still waiting for "our heroes" to do something. It also makes sure the world changes like I want it to change. It is also much less work intensive for me, always a plus.
Option two has appeal too though. Talk about Epic Storytelling! And the party gets to see its actions have a real impact, for good or ill.
Which way should I go?
2. At first this is met with great doubt, but as time goes on and Iuz's various servants start doing mad grabs for power, it should seem solid. Good time for PCs to venture right into Dorakaa, looking for evidence to the contrary - or to fight Boneheart and similar...
3. Even if you decide Iuz was imprisoned (yet again!) instead of slain, there's no guarantee he'll be freed in THIS century. Leaves your options open.
As they said in the Usual Suspects "the best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".
Works the same for old Iuz.
And like that...he's gone...
P.
Halber