Which are everyone's favorites?
What are they up to with regards to restoring their orders, dealing with the remaining Dragon Overlords and trying to rectify things on Krynn?
How much do you see them intervening directly in mortal affairs?
As for my fave, Sirrion the living flame. He's awesome.
Originally posted by talinthas
As for my fave, Sirrion the living flame. He's awesome.
Have you ever read anything in a novel or short story that gives you that impression?
Or is it your own version of Sirrion as used in your games that you like?
Cheers,
Cam
As for what happens after their return, though I havn't read a book dated after War of Souls it really seemed to me that the Gods of Good would have a bit of an infighting. I always thought Kiri-Jolith would want to be the new head of the Gods of Good and this didn't sit well with the more peace loving ones who would think Kiri-Jolith would start a holy war. Then the Gods of Evil would take advantage of this infighting to try and spread out and extend their grip back upon mortal lands.
Though of course the books published after WoS probably said something less dramatic.
I´m really looking forward to Amber & Ashes. Seeing what Weis´ take on CHemosh is will be very interesting
Ravenmantle
Does that mean no one can think that the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage is awesome because theres never been one in a novel or short story? Can the noble draconians not be awesome because they arent in a short story or novel. Or a Loremaster or any other class, race, or god? There are writeups of every god.
This isnt intended to give offense and maybe I read your comment a little off Cam, just seemed kind of mean. Who knows maybe its late at night and my mind isn't clear.
Although, after A&A, i really appreciate Chemosh, kinda. he's cooler than i'd have thought. and his clothes rock.
Also, i find myself playing majerean clerics alot, though i don't like how weis wrote him as much.
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
I think Cam asked simply because he was interested in knowing more about talinthas´ fascination with Sirrion...
Yeah, that was pretty much what I was after!
Cheers,
Cam
In my taladas, Sirrion holds a special place in the hearts of the gnomoi, inspiring creativity and expression in their inventions, and probably helped fight the war against the fire minions.
Elemental minions are traditionally summoned and directed to perform tasks, usually combat, by wizards and clerics of varying alignments. If the wizard or cleric is evil, then the minion follows suit.
Elementals in general are used for the most part by the neutral deities, much as the evil deities use fiends and the good deities charge celestials to perform tasks. This doesn't stop them from being summoned or bound by evil or good spellcasters, but it's a nice rule of thumb.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dea ex Machina
Myself I am rather impressed with Mr. Vengence god Sargy.
As for what happens after their return, though I havn't read a book dated after War of Souls it really seemed to me that the Gods of Good would have a bit of an infighting. I always thought Kiri-Jolith would want to be the new head of the Gods of Good and this didn't sit well with the more peace loving ones who would think Kiri-Jolith would start a holy war. Then the Gods of Evil would take advantage of this infighting to try and spread out and extend their grip back upon mortal lands.
Though of course the books published after WoS probably said something less dramatic.
I would tend to think it would be jsut the reverse. The gods of evil would infight and the gods of light could take advantage of that...but who knows..hehe.
I beleive in one of the Source books it says Mishakal has taken the rains of leadership of the gods of light. so there really shouldn't be any infighting. she is even looking for "combat" oriented clerics for her clergy. she is definately changing with the times.
Sargonnas on the other hand has two major problems. One is Chemosh, who doesn't fear him the way he did Takhisis. The other is his daughter Zeboim, who is erratic but formidable, and who could reasonably make a bid for control of both the Knights of Neraka and the minotaurs. Sargonnas also has lesser problems in the form of Morgion, who has become majorly paranoid, and Hiddukel, who may cut deals with Chemosh and/or Zeboim. Finally, Nuitari is in a position to be far more independent than he was towards his mother.
It looks to me like the Gods of Darkness are more lined up for conflict than the Gods of Light.
GCS
Originally posted by Psionycx
Sargonnas on the other hand has two major problems.
I count three, the last being his chosen ones - the minotaurs. Their shift in worship from Sarg(onn)as to the Forerunner religion must´ve weakened him. That is if we assume that the deities gain their power from their worshipers...but some may not.
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
That is if we assume that the deities gain their power from their worshipers...but some may not.
Krynn's gods aren't like those of the Realms - they don't rely on worship to give them power. They do rely on mortals to further their individual divine goals, but the gods of Krynn could go 350 years after the Cataclysm without worship and not be affected negatively.
Cheers,
Cam
Ravenmantle
I think Morgion and Chemosh r prety cool 2
My understanding was that the gods of Krynn are sort of "mixed" in where their power comes from. They have a certain amount of innate divine power endowed into them by the High God that has been their's since they came from the Beyond. But they could also supplement and enhance that power with the faith of mortals.
Originally posted by Psionycx
My understanding was that the gods of Krynn are sort of "mixed" in where their power comes from. They have a certain amount of innate divine power endowed into them by the High God that has been their's since they came from the Beyond. But they could also supplement and enhance that power with the faith of mortals.
The faith that mortals possess when they die might be the trick, here. That spiritual investment, borne by their souls as they pass out of the world, might return to the deities for whom it was made, thus completing the cycle and giving the gods a reason to want mortals to choose them over others.
While they're alive, however, I don't believe it makes any real difference, outside of the usual "what can you do for your god today" sort of stuff.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Psionycx
Mishakal is the mother of Kiri-Jolith, Habbakuk and Solinari. I don't think any of them would challenge her. I also don't see Majere and Branchala as being motivated to do so. Mishakal is not likely to stand in the way of her son Kiri-Jolith adopting the primary role as patron of the Knights of Solamnia. And she herself is even adopting some more militant worshippers. I don't think her leadership will be challenged, which is ironic because I don't think she wants it.
I've always envisioned Kiri-Jolith as Paladine's successor, with Mishakal and Majere as his advisors. But then, I've always pictured Mishakal with Paladine's last child to bring the number of Good gods back up to 7.
As for my favourite god... I don't know.
Certainly I'd like to see more of Sargonnas in his "Bloody Condor" aspect, since I really don't care about the Minotaurs.
I'd like to see Zivilyn become a more proactive in his prophecy and fate roles, and dispatching messengers to see that the timestream flows to its fate as it should. Takhisis' and Raistlin's actions over the past century would doubtless encourage this.
Originally posted by person with the stuff
Sargonnas won't have that many problems as leader of the evil gods. Since the spirits are able to move on and takhisis is dead,the forerunners are basicly null, so Sargonnas won't have much trouble ruling over the minotaurs. He seems to be the Knights of Neraka type god, so he is so he may end up being their cheif diety too(Knights of Sargonnas?).
It´s not a matter of ruling...Sargonnas isn´t the king of the minotaurs. Even though Takhisis is gone the forerunner religion might still be strong through some good propaganda work and the support of the emperor. It takes hard work for Sargonnas to win back the trust of his beloved minotaurs, who´ve been abandoned twice within very short time.
As for the Knights of Neraka...I hope not!! They´ve been betrayed by their god once...it´s highly unlikely they´ll just jump into the arms of another (Takhisis´ loverboy at that) and risk being betrayed again. As I see it they will most likely reassemble without a patron god (maybe even openly defying the gods)...
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
[b]It´s not a matter of ruling...Sargonnas isn´t the king of the minotaurs.
I guess i worded that wrong . What i meant was more as just him being the cheif religeon. since the forerunners still would have mystical powers they won't be completley gone, but definatley weakened. I can see some tension between the forerunners and the church of sargonnas in the future.
With the knights,i think of Sargonnas as more of the most respected diety for them. I can't see the knights officialy worshiping any diety any more.
Given his typical lack of subtlety, I don't expect him to enter a philosophical debate with the Forerunner faith. I would expect him to his usual wrathful self and do something violent, like have Nepherra killed (or even do it himself). Hodak has stepped a little out of line by changing the minotaur succession from trial-by-combat to heredity and that would be enough for traditionalist minotaurs to back a challenge to the throne if Sargas called for one. He could easily pump up some servant with boosted abilities or other divine gifts to the point where they could defeat the emperor.
As for the gods of Good, I doubt Kiri-Jolith would stand in the way of his mother should she desire rulership over the pantheon of Light. But yes, Kiri-Jolith is essentially a shoe-in for the next greater god of Light.
As for the gods of Darkness, expect outright divine warfare. While ther Good gods might discuss matters of succession in a peaceful and productive manner, the Evil gods will fight tooth and nail for the "honor" of rulership. Me, I'd place my bets on Zeboim. Yes, she's wildly chaotic and incapable of controlling herself, but Sargonnas may back her bid in an attempt to have a easily-manipulable goddess taking Takhisis' place. (But of course, Sargonnas will not rest until he holds the throne Takhy once held, with another Dark God in distinct second place...)
--but that's just my thought on the matter NB
I think Zeboim and other intermediate god of Evil will sire a new Dark God, and that Mishakal will discover that she is carrying Paladine's final child. Thus, once two of the old gods are raised to greater god status, two new younglings will be born that will restore Balance.
Which brings up a note of interest. Does anyone remember the old 2e DL modes that introduced a demi god.
I can't remember the name of the mode series but it was based in Ansalon and the demi god was the off spring of Chemosh and Zeboim. She was in league with some mutated draconian.
I have the books buried at home somewhere.
Originally posted by Sysane
I can't remember the name of the mode series but it was based in Ansalon and the demi god was the off spring of Chemosh and Zeboim. She was in league with some mutated draconian.
That's Artha, the grotesquely fat daughter of Takhisis and (depending on who you believe) Hiddukel or Chemosh. Zeboim didn't have anything to do with her.
Cheers,
Cam
--so, Zeboim and Mishakal will discover that they are pregnant NB
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
So, logically, the gods will not raise mortals to divinity in order to fill the gap in the pantheons of Light and Dark; rather, they'll simply get to shaggin' and produce new ones the old-fashioned way.
Of course, since the creation of the world, no god has sired another god, either. Even questionable sources that mention characters like Artha, Bast, or Malfesus (the demonic hydra in New Tales) are certain to point out that these beings are demigods at best, monstrous creatures at worst.
Cheers,
Cam
I think Artha could perhaps be something if she was tweaked a little, becoming perhaps a mortal wizard who is the daughter of Takhisis and Hiddukel. We certainly know that children of the dieties that are not divine themselves certainly exist. Ariakan being the case in point.
There might be room for a "divine offspring" template in the dragonlance world, though such a template might have the implications that divine children are common.
Myself, I just recast Malfesus (another child of Takhisis and Hiddukel) as a high CR demon with excellent ability scores, and left it at that.
That would be Artha, she isn't a fan favourite. The module sucked, and some were upset about a demigod when Krynn has only ever had the 21 dieties.
I didn't find the mods that bad. I only ran the first one though. I did think they were just rip offs of the Taladas module series however. I thought those were great IMO.
Favorite Neutral God/Goddess: Reorx (I'm a Dwarf fan)
Favorite Evil God/Goddess: Morgion (awwwwww you have scarlet fever, well if you worship me I'll ease your suffering)
Originally posted by ferratus
We certainly know that children of the dieties that are not divine themselves certainly exist. Ariakan being the case in point
If we are going to get technical here (and we often are on these boards) Ariakan did have a mortal father - the late Ariakas. That might explain Ariakan being mortal. I doubt that Takhisis and Hiddukel (an example) would sire a mortal...where would that mortal blood come from?
Ravenmantle
If we are going to get technical here (and we often are on these boards) Ariakan did have a mortal father - the late Ariakas. That might explain Ariakan being mortal.
Wouldn't that make Ariakan an Assimar or Teifling of some sort? Or maybe a Cambion and whatever a half-celestial is called?
As for Arthas, wouldn´t it be possible to create her as an abomination, using the Epic Level Handbook?
Ravenmantle
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Of course, since the creation of the world, no god has sired another god, either. Even questionable sources that mention characters like Artha, Bast, or Malfesus (the demonic hydra in New Tales) are certain to point out that these beings are demigods at best, monstrous creatures at worst.
Cheers,
Cam
Your post is meaningless. You admit gods can reproduce and sire new gods, yet you seem to be arguing with my point.
--thus, the point of your post is what, exactly? NB
Hmm I don´t think so...after all Zeboim isn´t a fiend and definitely not a celestial...she is a evil godess. I don´t know if there are any templates out there concerning half-gods (other than demigod of course)...
Well I did say of some sort not exact but no big deal.
Iuz is the Cambion son of the abyssal lord Grazzt in Greyhawk. He is almost of near deity status. Grazzt that is. Iuz is a god.
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Your post is meaningless. You admit gods can reproduce and sire new gods, yet you seem to be arguing with my point.
--thus, the point of your post is what, exactly? NB
My point is that the gods haven't produced any more divine children since the creation of the world. Thus, I don't expect there to be any more.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
My point is that the gods haven't produced any more divine children since the creation of the world. Thus, I don't expect there to be any more.
Cheers,
Cam
Gee, guess what? Gods have never died and/or been stripped of their divinity before.
--totally new situations call for a revamping of old ways of thinking NB
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Gee, guess what? Gods have never died and/or been stripped of their divinity before.
Uh... sure. Well, thanks for the lesson in lateral thinking. Who peed in your cornflakes this morning?
Cheers,
Cam
(and hey, they had Raistlin standing RIGHT THERE!
One of the problems with Wizards Conclave was the idea that the three moons were bickering cousin's that needed followers for power.
For a favorite deity, Kiri-jolith has really been the only one to capture my favor. Reorx would have been decent, if not for the Redhammer stuff.
Yes, Raistlin, pity they didn't decide to promote him.
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Gee, guess what? Gods have never died and/or been stripped of their divinity before.
Sure they have.
In that alternate reality where Raistlin became a God, he killed all the other Gods.
In one of the short stories in the anthology Dragons of Chaos, there was an alternate reality where the Kingpriest became sole deity of Krynn, having reduced the traditional pantheon of Gods to mere mortals because he had directly stripped their divine power from them and taken them for himself.
Originally posted by Psionycx
Given his typical lack of subtlety, I don't expect him to enter a philosophical debate with the Forerunner faith. I would expect him to his usual wrathful self and do something violent, like have Nepherra killed (or even do it himself). Hodak has stepped a little out of line by changing the minotaur succession from trial-by-combat to heredity and that would be enough for traditionalist minotaurs to back a challenge to the throne if Sargas called for one.
I agree that he might just(and probably will) purge the Forerunners, but i can't realey see him killing Hotak. I beleive at the end of the war of souls he mentioned to that one armed minotaur (i forget his name and i don't feel like looking it up) that the minotuars are taking their rightful place in the world, or somthing like that. It sounds he aproves of hotak's invasion of silvanesti. But then again he could kill hotak and go through with the invasion anyways.
This has a great potential. I have long felt that the rest of the gods were eclipsed by Paladine and Takhisis. Now the time has come for the rest of the pantheon to become more visible. The big thing they have to offer that mysticism cannot are the benefits of divine guidance and patronage.