First of all, I'd like to state that they're complete RL first-timers, and some of them had a large amount of bull-crap information about RL by other "old and experienced" players. (yeah right :rolleyes
Anyway, after some sessions in Souragne (my all-time classic favorite outlanders starter) I decided to let them out. However, due to some outside problems the last session before summer vacations was cut in half. Now, the problem is that noone seems to understand the Borders closing part of RL. They think that I'm playing lame tricks on them, to "take them where I want to because RL sucks and there's really no depth in it, only BBEGs..." Needless to say, the conductors in all this are the two "experts" mentioned before.Btw, in (unfortunately stale) Greece the only vastly accepted worlds are Krynn, Oerth and Faerun. The "experts" have the funny "knowledge" that RL is (in exact words) "a stupid world with mists where every DM with no imagination can move parties from one place to another in order to disguise their inability to create a normal world background..."!!!!! Idiotic!!
My point is not to discuss their -wrong- idea or how to deal with them. I'd really like your help on how to change their view on mistways and the DPs moving them around (in fact, the only moving them around I did was the "Wherever you go, there you are" effect of Closed Borders. Kept them in the same area, always reaching the "Trispepas Crossroad").
Finally, I'd like to say that I've been keeping my players away from the RL books (PHB, DMG, Gazeteers) except the feat, skills and Char classes parts of the PHB, since they're Outsiders and -unfortunately- obsessed metagamers. Didn't want to spoil the fun to the rest of them...
Cheers!!
If they're such meta-gamers, try to pull them inside a story, try to avoid rolling dice for one or more sessions. Take time to make them feel uncomfortable in the world.
Closing borders should work on them being imprisoned. If they don't get that, give them a copy of 'Gauntlet' and wish them good luck with hack & slash-gaming.
Players generally like to believe their PCs are more powerful and/or heroic than their real world selves. Its all about the myth of the individual who can make a difference. Ravenloft can powerfully tamper with all that. Many aspects of the realm can make PCs feel powerless (ie. closed borders) - which is frustrating, especially if you are expecting Greyhawk, Krynn or the Realms.
You need to gain your PCs trust. I have several thoughts that ought to help. As an experienced DM you are probably already doing many of them. Keep working these angles:
(1) Comminicate with your players. I think you're doing your players a diservice (and creating headaches for yourself) by not encouraging them to learn the basics of RL. If all they know is Greyhawk no wonder you're having some bumps. As a DM with new players its your job by default to teach them about the setting. While it sounds cool to have their outlander PCs know nothing and go through the school of hard knocks, I can understand why someone who is expecting to play in Realms might have a different take on RL. The fastest way to educate them would be to have them read the entire RL CS/RL PHB to get a feal for the setting. Find ways to funnel parts of the Gazateers or Gaz like diaries to them. Let them hear how others in the world cope with the things they are grappling with for the first time (you mention the mistways and closed borders for example). providing the PCs with a somewhat knowledgable mentor figure can also work.
(2) Don't railroad the players. Most domains don't have their borders closed for long periods of time. Most DLs shouldn't become aware of the players early on (well unless they're all Paladins running around with holy swords and consecrating territory). A closed border ought to be really scarry and a denial of something taken for granmted - that anyone who can brave the roads can go where they want.
(3) Give the PCs choices. Don't expect that the PCs will bite at every (or any) plot hook. The best DM I ever played under had three hooks for every one our party jumped at. God knows its a lot of hard work, he poured heart soul into the campaign.
(4) Choices have consequences. If the PCs don't help the village "X" at some later point the only one who has the knowledge they need lived at village X. Probably they fled and the PCs now have to find where they've settled at - if they're alive at all. On the other hand, if the PCs have been true heroes then if its reasonable to expect that they have allies they can call favors in from. Getting what they need from village "X" is easy, and the people there remember them warmly. Additionally while Bob the barkeep isn't much use in a fight but he has some good uses. He hears and see plenty of things which he is now willing to tell the party despite some risks to himself. He might even be willing to intervene and vouch for the party with other he knows due to traffic into and out of his tavern setting up future contacts.
(5) Recruit the players to your side and you are three legs up on setting the mood. Have you ever asked your players what their PCs worst fear is? If they put some thought into it then you might be surprised what kinds of responses (read:opertunities) you'll get. This might be the first time the "metagammers" think about this. Even if they try to metagame they may be making your work easier. Supposed a dedicated metagamer replies "being burried alive" as his character's worst fear because he figures unlike spiders or blood, the circumstance can't come up in ordinary play (thus avoiding fear checks). Ahh, but you are a crafty DM and willing to think outside the box. When some dark adversary goes to send the warning "to back off" does he just write it on the walls with blood? No, the PCs room is covered several inches of grave soil and coffins have replaced the beds. There are corpses left inside dressed roughly like the PCs. And there are scratch marks on the insides of the coffin lids as if the corpses tried to claw their way out. Should the PCs be creeped out? I would be! No fear checks needed, and good luck explaininmg things to the Inn's owner. Assuming (for a second) he isn't in on it, you now a role-play intensive encounter as the PCs try to expalin what happened and why they shouldn't be thrown out into the night!
If you start to earn the trust of the players, their PCs will buy in more to your world. The more the PCs buy in, the more oppertunities you have as a DM to do "cool things" without worrying if the PCs will feel railroaded. The more cool things that happen, the better the time your players will have...leading to more trust from your players (wash rinse repeat). Victory.
Hope something there helps. Sorry the post is so long.
-Eric Gorman
We all know the stereotypes running around based on false impressions and half-understood truth:
- RL is a setting for killer DM
- in RL the DM is out to s**** his players
- the Mists are nothing but a DM's deus ex machina
etc...
The one and only way I have found to beat those is to enhance the role-play of my gaming sessions and NOT use the monsters they expected (thanks to the vet) me to throw at them (read: vampires, lycanthropes, etc..)
I do agree, however, that in one respect players have a valid point of view. The closing of a domain's borders can really be seen as a DM denying his players free will.
For a long time, I wondered how to make it seem more "logical" (for lack of a better word). Then, the Gazetteer I enhancement pdf came and my world turned upside down. Here at long last was a credible explanation, even if it was tied to local legends. I only wish Sword & Sorcery had bothered to include such info in ALL their gazetteers!
Now, to a more in-depth analysis:
~~~~~~~~~~HvF~~~~~~~~
Well, what can I say... I really
you man!! Every time I read your posts, I 
down before you!! ...well...I got carried away :embarrass . Now, on the angles you wrote, I have to admit that I really abused the first part, with them having no knowledge at all and me denying them all access to the RL PHB. It's just that I have a deep, almost irrational hate/fear of lawyers/munchkins, having more than two or three crucial sessions (which led to whole campaigns) lost to moments of sheer meta-thinking. Except the two-three forementioned metas, the rest of the party responds quite well so far and I think it would turn out well if I could somehow focus on the others. One of the reasons I haven't shown the PHB to them is one HELL of a lawyer, who on one point went as far as to start a ruleswar with me on the +/- I should give on a current horror save!
!Jeezz!!I'm thinking of sucking the party-poopers (no pun intended :smirkOn your other points, I would like to think of myself as a semi-seasoned RL thinker, as in having spent much time reading, investigating, ploting, feeling Ravenloft. (I didn't have the chance of extended playing though). So, I tend not to misuse either the mists or the DLs as means of railroading. As I said in my first post, the only border closing I did was like a demonstration of "this is Ravenloft, nice to meet you".
Btw, I just LOVED YOUR IDEA of the coffins!!!!! OOwww, I could never think of something like that. Twisted man, twisted...:D Thanks alot!
~~~~~~~~~~Mortepierre~~~~~~~
Actually the part of veteran false-prophets sowing seeds of despair(sp?) is one I like. Let them create all the paranoia they can, then use it for fun's sake on its own!! Yes, I agree with you that a really RP-heavy experience can be good for showing RLs true face but as I said, most of them are really new not only to RL but to D&D as well, lacking the experience needed to navigate through difficult territory via RP. Well, I thnk they'll learn eventually...
THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE, YOU ROCK
Cheers!!