Several questions from a new member and DM. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Several questions from a new member and DM.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Aug 09, 2004 13:31:55 Hi,
Since this is my first post (and I intend to make more) I'll introduce myself and the group: we are a group of seven players (six PCs and myself as DM) who are about to embark on a Dark Sun campaign. We play 2nd Edition, and so are not particularly interested in the third edition conversion process at the moment. We use the non-revised campaign setting, and have a few supplements including Earth, Air, Fire and Water, Elves of Athas, and several others.

We are currently in the process of making characters, and already I have encountered a few problems (or potential problems); the first of these is that the PCs include one druid and one defiler. Is this combination ever workable? I get the impression that a druid would be severly neglecting his duties should he travel with a defiler, let alone allow him to use magic. Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions?

Another problem is with the use of character trees (and to some extent this problem is of my own doing). I agree with the use of character trees for the reasons given in the Campaign Setting, but I do not want the players to be able to choose any class for their inactive characters. I have also limited them to having only one other character of the exact same class within their tree. This is because 1) I feel that if all the inactive characters have the same class as the active PC, they stop being separate characters and instead become replacements or spares, and 2) although I encourage variety within the options for secondary characters, I do not particularly want the player's role within the party to change as he changes characters (for example priest spell user, fighter, thief etc). Some of my players know a fair amount about AD&D already, but some do not. To have players with a thief, a preserver, a cleric and a fighter just does not appeal to me whatsoever, and it requires the players to change their playing style or role within the party.
Has anyone ever done anything similar to this is their campaign?

The problem arises when players come to creating their inactive characters. First, they do not always qualify, in terms of statistics, for the classes I have allowed them to choose - the psionicist, for example, had no other characters who would qualify for another psionicist or multi-classed psionicists. Second, with a group such as wizard the choices for race are very restricted, and the defiler player was becoming disappointed with his limited choices of race (and I empathised with this). Admittedly I had not forseen these potential problems.
Can anyone provide me with any help on this one? I am open to suggestions.

My final concern, but one that has not actually caused any problems thus far is with the half-giant. One player has a half-giant character with a strength of 24 and a constitution of 19, and hit points in the 40's. Now, I am all for half-giants being powerful fighters, and he did roll these stats perfectly fairly (4D4 + 4 method). However I am a little concerned that the half-giant might over-shadow the other PCs, and/or I will have to use monsters that are just the right difficulty for the half-giant, but therefore far too hard for the other PCs.
Again, and ideas?

Well, my first post has been a lengthy one - I hope someone takes the time to read it and offer their experience!
Thanks,

Mark.
#2
zombiegleemax
Aug 09, 2004 13:52:06 I see little reconciliation between the defiler and the druid. The only way I see for them to adventure together is if they are somehow forced (imagine a powerful psionicists cursing them to be close together or lose their abilities). I seem them killing each other as soon as the campaign starts out.

The Half-giant will not be a big problem. A lot of combat in Athas occurs through psionics, and he (or she) will find that charging into battle will very likely get you killed. You should definetly make the player feel that early on. Athas is harsh and cruel, and not even a 24 in STR will save you.
#3
zombiegleemax
Aug 09, 2004 14:27:55 It's lost everything I typed....

if you don't like the system you are playing it under try changing the system.

Personally I am only playing Dark Sun again now because of the release of 3E.

Revised Dark Sun changed a few of the ability score tables. making high strength scores a bit more balanced. also (though IMHO broken) the new psionic rules are definately flavourful (MAC and MThac0- Mental AC and Mental Thac0). It should at least address the issue of your over-powered half-giant whilst still letting him shine. Under the first DS setting, the gap between 18 and 19 strength was just to big, any player with a decent score would be out of his mind to not try and boost it up past the 18 mark via race selection. Worse was a thri-kreen with 19 or 20 str. 5 atts/rnd with +9 damage...yikes.

3E would also address some of your issues, such as abilitiy score requirements and race/class limitations. I know you said you don't want to make the change just yet, but I am pointing these out to you so you will know at least one way of fixing these problems.

I gave up playing DS long ago because I found that DS should be a skill based world and the old proficiency system just didn't cut it. When I first read 3E all I could think of was "OMG, DS could actually WORK now!". It's a world that more than any other that rewards skills that aren't just related to combat (find water/survival/somatic concealment etc).
#4
zombiegleemax
Aug 09, 2004 14:35:40 sorry, servers playing up on me.
#5
zombiegleemax
Aug 09, 2004 16:14:42
Is this combination ever workable?

Sure it is, it just takes quite a bit of creativity on the part of the two players to make characters that would want to travel together (or at least, have the need to travel together). Encourage the two players to develope backgrounds and personalities that ensure that the party will make it past the first adventure. It shouldn't be up to the DM to constantly settle disputes and/or come up with creative ways to keep the two from killing each other by placing a zippo lighter next to their character sheets.

Has anyone ever done anything similar to this is their campaign

After the first few months into DS, we opted to ditch the character tree system. It saved a lot of preliminary work to get a campaign going, and since character death became quite common, we found ourself making 'quick replacements' that were fleshed out more after the end of the night's game. Replacements simply started 1 level lower than the lowest member (or two levels lower than the average for the group if there was a hefty spread).

My final concern, but one that has not actually caused any problems thus far is with the half-giant

DS has the problem in that it can quickly turn into a hack and slash only game with all half-giants and thri-kreen gladiators walking around like sherman tanks wreaking havoc. Never let those seemingly 'superior' races get egotistical about themselves. The half-giant has quite a few weakeness that are inheirent; exploit each and every one of them. His size (and hence his limited mobility) is one, enforced interaction isn't likely to turn out well with the half-giant due simply to stereotypes. Add that to the fact that no matter how big and bad you are on Athas, there's hundreds of things bigger, badder, and far more hungry than you. It helps too in combat if you have a mind for tactics. Swarm tactics can whittle down a half-giant fairly quickly (toss a dozen small sized grappling beasts at the half-giant and watch how well he does). Or simply let him take the brunt of a rampager or nightmare beast's trample a few times and see how big and bad he thinks he is.
#6
zombiegleemax
Aug 10, 2004 21:44:28
Originally posted by Skole

Revised Dark Sun changed a few of the ability score tables. making high strength scores a bit more balanced. also (though IMHO broken) the new psionic rules are definately flavourful (MAC and MThac0- Mental AC and Mental Thac0). It should at least address the issue of your over-powered half-giant whilst still letting him shine. Under the first DS setting, the gap between 18 and 19 strength was just to big, any player with a decent score would be out of his mind to not try and boost it up past the 18 mark via race selection. Worse was a thri-kreen with 19 or 20 str. 5 atts/rnd with +9 damage...yikes.

).

I didnt like the revised stat table. so number1.) I went back to second ed tables, except for nonfighter extra hitpoint adjust, I did keep that. 2.) with Warriors receiving a +1d4 str adjust they no longer get % adjustments, if the extra d4 brought you to 18 you were stuck there. 3.)Nonwarriors got % str. Clerics just rolled, theives/psions -25%, wiz -50%, (feel free to modifie) And you can treat a neg result as 18(firm) Look, I dont read long post so if your new and need any info, I still just play 2nd Ed. One last thing, buy combat and tactics.... 4.) Create an expanded Str chart. In my game if a halfgiant rolls allthe way to 28 I let them have it, and I think a Mul can go to 26. (I let players have there strength, cause I can kill them other ways)
#7
zombiegleemax
Aug 16, 2004 11:36:33
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
One last thing, buy combat and tactics....

Why, what's in 'Combat and Tactics', and why do you recommend it?

Mark.
#8
zombiegleemax
Aug 16, 2004 16:44:58 The Player's Option: Combat and Tactics book wasn't bad. It gave combat a lot more detail, but it nicely let you pick and choose a lot of the pieces. It gave a few ways to make weapon proficiencies actually cool, defined a lot of action types, introduced things like attacks of opprotunity, threatened ranges, facing . . . basically, it was pre 3e. Call it Advanced Advanced D&D, or 3E lite, whichever you prefer (but basically, alot of 3E combat, in fact, almost all of it, comes from that book). Critical hit rules, seige rules; just lots of extra crunchieness.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 09, 2004 13:31:55	Hi, Since this is my first post (and I intend to make more) I'll introduce myself and the group: we are a group of seven players (six PCs and myself as DM) who are about to embark on a Dark Sun campaign. We play 2nd Edition, and so are not particularly interested in the third edition conversion process at the moment. We use the non-revised campaign setting, and have a few supplements including Earth, Air, Fire and Water, Elves of Athas, and several others. We are currently in the process of making characters, and already I have encountered a few problems (or potential problems); the first of these is that the PCs include one druid and one defiler. Is this combination ever workable? I get the impression that a druid would be severly neglecting his duties should he travel with a defiler, let alone allow him to use magic. Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions? Another problem is with the use of character trees (and to some extent this problem is of my own doing). I agree with the use of character trees for the reasons given in the Campaign Setting, but I do not want the players to be able to choose any class for their inactive characters. I have also limited them to having only one other character of the exact same class within their tree. This is because 1) I feel that if all the inactive characters have the same class as the active PC, they stop being separate characters and instead become replacements or spares, and 2) although I encourage variety within the options for secondary characters, I do not particularly want the player's role within the party to change as he changes characters (for example priest spell user, fighter, thief etc). Some of my players know a fair amount about AD&D already, but some do not. To have players with a thief, a preserver, a cleric and a fighter just does not appeal to me whatsoever, and it requires the players to change their playing style or role within the party. Has anyone ever done anything similar to this is their campaign? The problem arises when players come to creating their inactive characters. First, they do not always qualify, in terms of statistics, for the classes I have allowed them to choose - the psionicist, for example, had no other characters who would qualify for another psionicist or multi-classed psionicists. Second, with a group such as wizard the choices for race are very restricted, and the defiler player was becoming disappointed with his limited choices of race (and I empathised with this). Admittedly I had not forseen these potential problems. Can anyone provide me with any help on this one? I am open to suggestions. My final concern, but one that has not actually caused any problems thus far is with the half-giant. One player has a half-giant character with a strength of 24 and a constitution of 19, and hit points in the 40's. Now, I am all for half-giants being powerful fighters, and he did roll these stats perfectly fairly (4D4 + 4 method). However I am a little concerned that the half-giant might over-shadow the other PCs, and/or I will have to use monsters that are just the right difficulty for the half-giant, but therefore far too hard for the other PCs. Again, and ideas? Well, my first post has been a lengthy one - I hope someone takes the time to read it and offer their experience! Thanks, Mark.
#2 zombiegleemax Aug 09, 2004 13:52:06	I see little reconciliation between the defiler and the druid. The only way I see for them to adventure together is if they are somehow forced (imagine a powerful psionicists cursing them to be close together or lose their abilities). I seem them killing each other as soon as the campaign starts out. The Half-giant will not be a big problem. A lot of combat in Athas occurs through psionics, and he (or she) will find that charging into battle will very likely get you killed. You should definetly make the player feel that early on. Athas is harsh and cruel, and not even a 24 in STR will save you.
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 09, 2004 14:27:55	It's lost everything I typed.... if you don't like the system you are playing it under try changing the system. Personally I am only playing Dark Sun again now because of the release of 3E. Revised Dark Sun changed a few of the ability score tables. making high strength scores a bit more balanced. also (though IMHO broken) the new psionic rules are definately flavourful (MAC and MThac0- Mental AC and Mental Thac0). It should at least address the issue of your over-powered half-giant whilst still letting him shine. Under the first DS setting, the gap between 18 and 19 strength was just to big, any player with a decent score would be out of his mind to not try and boost it up past the 18 mark via race selection. Worse was a thri-kreen with 19 or 20 str. 5 atts/rnd with +9 damage...yikes. 3E would also address some of your issues, such as abilitiy score requirements and race/class limitations. I know you said you don't want to make the change just yet, but I am pointing these out to you so you will know at least one way of fixing these problems. I gave up playing DS long ago because I found that DS should be a skill based world and the old proficiency system just didn't cut it. When I first read 3E all I could think of was "OMG, DS could actually WORK now!". It's a world that more than any other that rewards skills that aren't just related to combat (find water/survival/somatic concealment etc).
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 09, 2004 14:35:40	sorry, servers playing up on me.
#5 zombiegleemax Aug 09, 2004 16:14:42	Is this combination ever workable? Sure it is, it just takes quite a bit of creativity on the part of the two players to make characters that would want to travel together (or at least, have the need to travel together). Encourage the two players to develope backgrounds and personalities that ensure that the party will make it past the first adventure. It shouldn't be up to the DM to constantly settle disputes and/or come up with creative ways to keep the two from killing each other by placing a zippo lighter next to their character sheets. Has anyone ever done anything similar to this is their campaign After the first few months into DS, we opted to ditch the character tree system. It saved a lot of preliminary work to get a campaign going, and since character death became quite common, we found ourself making 'quick replacements' that were fleshed out more after the end of the night's game. Replacements simply started 1 level lower than the lowest member (or two levels lower than the average for the group if there was a hefty spread). My final concern, but one that has not actually caused any problems thus far is with the half-giant DS has the problem in that it can quickly turn into a hack and slash only game with all half-giants and thri-kreen gladiators walking around like sherman tanks wreaking havoc. Never let those seemingly 'superior' races get egotistical about themselves. The half-giant has quite a few weakeness that are inheirent; exploit each and every one of them. His size (and hence his limited mobility) is one, enforced interaction isn't likely to turn out well with the half-giant due simply to stereotypes. Add that to the fact that no matter how big and bad you are on Athas, there's hundreds of things bigger, badder, and far more hungry than you. It helps too in combat if you have a mind for tactics. Swarm tactics can whittle down a half-giant fairly quickly (toss a dozen small sized grappling beasts at the half-giant and watch how well he does). Or simply let him take the brunt of a rampager or nightmare beast's trample a few times and see how big and bad he thinks he is.
#6 zombiegleemax Aug 10, 2004 21:44:28	Originally posted by Skole Revised Dark Sun changed a few of the ability score tables. making high strength scores a bit more balanced. also (though IMHO broken) the new psionic rules are definately flavourful (MAC and MThac0- Mental AC and Mental Thac0). It should at least address the issue of your over-powered half-giant whilst still letting him shine. Under the first DS setting, the gap between 18 and 19 strength was just to big, any player with a decent score would be out of his mind to not try and boost it up past the 18 mark via race selection. Worse was a thri-kreen with 19 or 20 str. 5 atts/rnd with +9 damage...yikes. ). I didnt like the revised stat table. so number1.) I went back to second ed tables, except for nonfighter extra hitpoint adjust, I did keep that. 2.) with Warriors receiving a +1d4 str adjust they no longer get % adjustments, if the extra d4 brought you to 18 you were stuck there. 3.)Nonwarriors got % str. Clerics just rolled, theives/psions -25%, wiz -50%, (feel free to modifie) And you can treat a neg result as 18(firm) Look, I dont read long post so if your new and need any info, I still just play 2nd Ed. One last thing, buy combat and tactics.... 4.) Create an expanded Str chart. In my game if a halfgiant rolls allthe way to 28 I let them have it, and I think a Mul can go to 26. (I let players have there strength, cause I can kill them other ways)
#7 zombiegleemax Aug 16, 2004 11:36:33	Originally posted by Tha Nomad One last thing, buy combat and tactics.... Why, what's in 'Combat and Tactics', and why do you recommend it? Mark.
#8 zombiegleemax Aug 16, 2004 16:44:58	The Player's Option: Combat and Tactics book wasn't bad. It gave combat a lot more detail, but it nicely let you pick and choose a lot of the pieces. It gave a few ways to make weapon proficiencies actually cool, defined a lot of action types, introduced things like attacks of opprotunity, threatened ranges, facing . . . basically, it was pre 3e. Call it Advanced Advanced D&D, or 3E lite, whichever you prefer (but basically, alot of 3E combat, in fact, almost all of it, comes from that book). Critical hit rules, seige rules; just lots of extra crunchieness.