Presently I am building my campaign as a pre-Kalak's death 2nd ed campaign, using a combination of Dark Sun, Dark Sun revised and expanded, and some unoffical rules.
(shameless plug)Mainly due to system issues, 2e kept some nice flavor for DS, which then broke the system more than it was. However, 3e/3.5 isn't bad.
I am working on D20/3.5 rules for my own campaign based on what we have put out so far from athas.org, so you have that option as well.
On another note, if one were to play 3.x how many levels in what classes do you think borys would have?
Originally posted by Jaedaken
On another note, if one were to play 3.x how many levels in what classes do you think borys would have?
He would definately be very Epic.
I would say no less than 50 or 60 levels, especially if you are using Xlorep's rules for Advanced Beings.
That's my personal preference anyways.
On another note, if one were to play 3.x how many levels in what classes do you think borys would have?
Ooo, now there's a question on mechanics I can answer. Borys has exactly twice the total number of levels of all your party members combines at any point in time. If you have five members, all 17th lvl, then the Dragon has 170 total levels, which should be sufficient enough to stomp the party even in a comatose slumber. Okay, not really, but simply put, he is the biggest and baddest of a group of immortals. There should never be a time in your party's lives when going after and taking down Borys becomes easy. Even if they quest their arses off for years and hit ungodly levels, the Dragon should still be the second most daunting encounter they can ever think of facing (only taking on Rajaat himself would be even more challenging). If you simply have to have numbers, then I'd say around 40 or even more total levels, split up between psionicist, defiler, and warrior (in that order of preference, or the equivalent in some PrCs). Sounds rough? He damn well should. He made 9 other very powerful immortals cower in fear for a few hundred years.
(edit) Nyt's numbers beat out mine even (though I admit, I haven't been following any of the advanced being talks much). I say, the higher the better. 70 was always a nice sounding number)
Originally posted by Mach2.5
70 was always a nice sounding number)
70 works for me too. :D
With my write-ups, I have Borys as:
Borys, the Dragon (Level 70)
Class/Levels: Psychic Warrior 20/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Advanced Being(dragon) 30
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Dwarves), Sorcerer-Monarch
Notes: Borys only had begun the Dragon metamorphosis before using the power of the Dark Lens with the assistance of the other new Sorcerer-Kings, resulting in him effectively getting the effects of the Stage-2 -> Stage-4 spells being cast upon him simultaneously. As such, he has only 8 levels of Advanced Being(dragon) using the Stage-1 spell, but he has 22 levels of it as the effects after the 4th & final spell. As such, he's an underdeveloped dragon by my rules, and is lacking certian features associated with "normal" dragons - like wings.
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Of the Sorcerer-Kings that survived the events of the Prism Pentad, I have:
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Dregoth, the Undead Dragon-King, Dread Lord of New Giustenal (Level 75)
Class/Levels: Erudite 8/Wizard(defiler) 3/Cerebmancer 4/Arch-Defiler 10/Metamind 10/Arch Psion 5/Archmage 5/Advanced Being(Dragon) 30
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Giants), Sorcerer-Monarch, Kaisharga
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Hamanu, King of the World, and Lion of Urik (Level 65)
Class/Levels: Commoner 3/Marshal 15/Tactical Soldier 5/War Mind 10/Wizard(defiler) 17/Advanced Being(Dragon, unique) 15
Templates: Champion of Rajaat II (Trolls, other Champions and all rebirth races not already covered by the other Champions including Humans), Sorcerer-Monarch
Notes: Hamanu did not receive the same changes that the other Champions of Rajaat did, nor did he receive the same Dragon Metamorphosis. He is a unique case, and does not require incremental metamorphosis spells to move him along in the process, instead, time and use of his magic advances the metamorphosis automatically. He also is the only Sorcerer-King known to be able to regularly strike down and kill other Sorcerer-Kings, and has a completely different set of damage reductions than the others. All weapons that are “dragon-bane” heal Hamanu the amount of points that the weapon's normal bonus damage against Dragons would inflict.
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Nibenay, the Shadow King of Nibenay (Level 60)
Class/Levels: Psion(seer) 5/Wizard(defiler) 10/Shadow Wizard 10/Archmage 5/Shadow Mind 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 15
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Gnomes), Sorcerer-Monarch
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Lalai-Puy, the Oba, Forest-Goddess of Gulg (Level 55)
Class/Levels: Psion(telepath) 15/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Thrallherd 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 10
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Aaracokra), Sorcerer-Monarch
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Oronis, the Avangion of Kurn (Level 51)
Class/Levels: Psion(egoist) 11/Wizard(preserver)17/Sangehirn 10/Advanced Being(Avangion) 13
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Lizard Men), Sorcerer-Monarch
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Daskinor, the Mad King of Eldaarich (Level 50)
Class/Levels: Wilder 25/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 5
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Goblins), Sorcerer-Monarch
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Those that did not survive the events of the Prism Pentad (borys is outlined above, but didn't survive):
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Andropinis, the Dictator of Balic (Level 58)
Class/Levels: Aristocrat 3/Psion(nomad) 20/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 15
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Elves), Sorcerer-Monarch, Blacktouched
Notes: Technically, he's not dead, only imprisoned.
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Abalach-Re, the Great Vizier of Raam (Level 54)
Class/Levels: Psion (telepath) 26/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 8
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Orcs), Sorcerer-Monarch
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Kalak, the Tyrant of Tyr (Level 53)
Class/Levels: Psion (shaper) 11/Wizard (defiler) 13/Arch Defiler 10/Archmage 5/Advanced Being(Dragon) 14
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Ogres), Sorcerer-Monarch
Notes: Some people prefer he does not have the "Champion of Rajaat" Template, which is possible.
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Tectucktitlay, the Father of Life and Master of the Two Moons for Draj (Level 52)
Class/Levels: Warrior 5/Psion (kineticist) 20/Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 7
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Wemics), Sorcerer-Monarch
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Note: The templates "Champion of Rajaat" (and "Champion of Rajaat II", "Sorcerer-Monarch" and the Class "Advanced Being" will all be up on my new site once I get it going again.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Dregoth, the Undead Dragon-King, Dread Lord of New Giustenal (Level 75)
Class/Levels: Erudite 8/Wizard(defiler) 3/Cerebmancer 4/Arch-Defiler 10/Metamind 10/Arch Psion 5/Archmage 5/Advanced Being(Dragon) 30
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Giants), Sorcerer-Monarch, Kaisharga
I was under the impression that Dregoth was a 29th lvl dragon before his death...
I was under the impression that Dregoth was a 29th lvl dragon before his death...
In 2e he was 29th, but more than likely would have been higer level in 3e. This is xlorepdarkhelm take on the Dread King.
Originally posted by az_zel
I was under the impression that Dregoth was a 29th lvl dragon before his death...
Thats right. This would make him 20th\20th\9th dragon in 2e which would convert to 49th level in 3e but like Sysane says, it should be higher really
Stages-1 through 3 each give a dragon template and allow you to take 10 levels of dragon (the prestige classes are called "Stage-1 Dragon"...). Then when reaching Stage-4 you get a template but your progression has ended and there are no levels availlable. That stage represents the 30th level of 2E.
Also, at each stage a dragon can try to skip taking levels in the stage's PrC so he can attain the next stage faster. That way he gets more powerful dragon magic and psionic enchantments but loses on the physical transformations the classes give. That is what the SKs did with Borys when they helped him become the Dragon, that's why he doesn't have wings.
Now xlor has redesigned his rules on dragons and has added the possibility of taking dragon levels after having completed the metamorphosis. Those are epic dragon levels. Dunno what they do but that's a fun concept.
So Borys is a finished dragon and has lots of post-30th epic levels of "dragon", while Dregoth has not yet finished his transformation but has dutifully followed every level in each stage. So he's closer to what a dragon is supposed to look like than Borys ever was.
Originally posted by columbob
Still, good work all the same! I really like your work. Will those feature in the DS epic rules on Athas.org?
Not necessarily. These are based off of my own rules, which are not necessarily the same thing as those from Athas.org. These are rules that I had been working on for a while now, and the new incarnation which will be on my website when it's up again, will technically be the 3rd iteration of my Dragon & Avangion rules - streamlined even further from the last version.
Originally posted by az_zel
I was under the impression that Dregoth was a 29th lvl dragon before his death...
There's a few things about this, which had been pointed out by others, but I just want to reaffirm, since I'm the one that actually built the system that I used there:
My Dragon progression is decidedly different than the progression from 2E. I found that the old 2E system quite honestly seemed contrieved, and far too hastily put together - it seemed like something that was added into Dragon Kings in the last 5 minutes before being sent to the editor, then got a lot of it's depth ripped out before being published. It also had not been updated when Defilers & Preservers was released. It did not mesh at all with the rest of the setting - specifically anything in novels or fluff from other game products that mentioned dragons and their transformations, the planar connections (or lack thereof), and more. It also, to me, was far too restrictive at the beginning, but was also far too short. So, I redesigned it, borrowing ideas from all sorts of 2E books, as well as some concepts from other non-DS sources for inspiration. I built it originally as a 4 PrC and 4 Epic Spell system. I then restructured it, due to the relative pointlessness of a 1-level PrC at the end, to a 3 PrC, 4 Template and 4 Epic Spell system which worked better structurally, but is rather complex to juggle for a lot of people (who didn't want all the excess mechanics of templates *and* spells *and* multiple PrC's). So, I have since restructured it once more, only this time to a simgle, all-inclusive broad Epic PrC called "Advanced Being" - which Dragons, Avangions, Spirits of the Land and Cleric-Elementals all take levels in. The unique changes for each are outlined into each of the Advanced Being's Epic Spells, everything from immediate transformational effects (which used to be the templates), to level-based, long-term metamorphosis effects (which used to be the PrC changes).
The process takes about 30 levels from start to finish, to get the full effects of it. And, the most-likely-candidates for initiating this process actually come out to being around levels 26 - 28, but it is technically possible to be able to start as soon as level 21 - the longer one waits tho, the better their chances of survival. My process is very robust (as in the opposite of simplistic), and yet simple (which is not the same thing as simplistic) to use. Hopefully soon, I'll have my site back up again, and people will get to see what I've done. Of course, I'm also currently still in the process of developing & designing my new site, so even if I had it up tomorrow, it wouldn't be ready.
Originally posted by Prism
Thats right. This would make him 20th\20th\9th dragon in 2e which would convert to 49th level in 3e but like Sysane says, it should be higher really
Actually, it converts into 3E (straight level conversion, by the method presented in the conversion booklet) as 20 + (20 + 9)/3, or 29 levels in all. That, to me, seems awefully weak and inept for a being that has been around for milennia, had slaughtered giants (as a race), and has created his own distorted rewrite of humans known as Dray. He's also undead, and I personally believe has been doing more than playing patty-cake with his dimentional portal - I bet he's been out, using it, and learning whatever he needs. His focus seems to be on becoming a god (just from the name of the unreleased module "Dregoth Ascending"), so I bet he's been researching divinity while exploring the outer planes.
nik
And don't the few advanced beings in your game deserve the time and attention anyway? Not to mention that DMs who are not you will have most of the advanced beings largely made for them only needing the tweaking that is appropriate for the specific game.
Perhaps I am too much of a 2nd ed purist, where, among other things, the more convoluted something is, the more intriguing I find it to be.
That is the area of psionics, I know as soon as I say this a million people are probably going to pounce on me and say that second ed psionics were terribly unbalancing, but as DM i control all the right levers to put things back into place including how good the monsters psionics are and the experience PCs actually get for them.
So we have a rich second ed system, that was greatly fleshed out and expanded in The Will and the Way. And a bland 3rd ed system that seems a lot like sorcerers with different powers (and if you use Unearthed Arcana’s spell points, Psions get outclassed in every way by sorcerers). Yes there are some neat things about 3rd psionics, don't get me wrong. But I feel that as soon as powers got levels assigned to them a small part of me withered up and died inside. And I still don't understand how having a good dexterity gives you the ability to harness more psionic potential, assuming that is, that you are a nomad. Lastly, one of the things that irritates me the most about psionics is that it goes from the way of the unseen, to the way of the blatantly obvious. I know that is easy enough to fix as the DM where I can just drop the displays, however it irks me every time I play in someone else’s campaign (I know, now I am just whining, but hey not like I haven’t heard you do it either).
How do you all feel about the handling of psionics in the two different editions?
They fixed some things in the expanded psionics handbook (3.5), e.g. a psions relevant attribute is now always Int, wether he is a nomad or a savant.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Borys, the Dragon (Level 70)
Class/Levels: Psychic Warrior 20/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Advanced Being(dragon) 30
Dregoth, the Undead Dragon-King, Dread Lord of New Giustenal (Level 75)
Class/Levels: Erudite 8/Wizard(defiler) 3/Cerebmancer 4/Arch-Defiler 10/Metamind 10/Arch Psion 5/Archmage 5/Advanced Being(Dragon) 30
Hamanu, King of the World, and Lion of Urik (Level 65)
Class/Levels: Commoner 3/Marshal 15/Tactical Soldier 5/War Mind 10/Wizard(defiler) 17/Advanced Being(Dragon, unique) 15
Nibenay, the Shadow King of Nibenay (Level 60)
Class/Levels: Psion(seer) 5/Wizard(defiler) 10/Shadow Wizard 10/Archmage 5/Shadow Mind 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 15
Lalai-Puy, the Oba, Forest-Goddess of Gulg (Level 55)
Class/Levels: Psion(telepath) 15/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Thrallherd 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 10
Oronis, the Avangion of Kurn (Level 51)
Class/Levels: Psion(egoist) 11/Wizard(preserver)17/Sangehirn 10/Advanced Being(Avangion) 13
Daskinor, the Mad King of Eldaarich (Level 50)
Class/Levels: Wilder 25/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 5
Andropinis, the Dictator of Balic (Level 58)
Class/Levels: Aristocrat 3/Psion(nomad) 20/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 15
Abalach-Re, the Great Vizier of Raam (Level 54)
Class/Levels: Psion (telepath) 26/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 8
Kalak, the Tyrant of Tyr (Level 53)
Class/Levels: Psion (shaper) 11/Wizard (defiler) 13/Arch Defiler 10/Archmage 5/Advanced Being(Dragon) 14
Tectucktitlay, the Father of Life and Master of the Two Moons for Draj (Level 52)
Class/Levels: Warrior 5/Psion (kineticist) 20/Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Advanced Being(Dragon) 7
I have been waiting for smth. like, and I am afraid that the athas.org version will be of the same sort too.
The problem is that your SKs are VERY multiclassed, so they have the same offence/defence disbalance as deities from Deities and Demigods and 3e FR sources.
I see a SK with n HD to have offensive powers of n level wisard AND n level psion.
Originally posted by Jaedaken
Hmm, so did streamlining the process make it better or just simpler? I know that 3rd is supposed to be easier to manage but do you really need to make it less of a headache for your PC to pick up advanced being levels? I find that in game challenges rarely stop a PC for getting something done, but hassling the player almost always works.
And don't the few advanced beings in your game deserve the time and attention anyway? Not to mention that DMs who are not you will have most of the advanced beings largely made for them only needing the tweaking that is appropriate for the specific game.
Perhaps I am too much of a 2nd ed purist, where, among other things, the more convoluted something is, the more intriguing I find it to be.
The streamlining process actually took none of the lavor away, it only eliminated some extraneous rules mechanics that weren't needed. Please understand, however, that when I say it's more simple, I do not mean it is simplistic. There is a radical difference between those two words. Simple means that it's not complex. Simplistic means you've taken away features of the class in order to make it smaller. Frequently, for some reason, people assume the two words are interchangeable. The opposite of Simple is Complex. The opposite of Simplistic is Robust.
I personally, find anything that is complex, to be a waste of energy. It becomes overly entangled in a bunch of mechanics that are not really necessary. As such, I am always looking for a more efficient method to my designs on anything, streamlining and making them more simple andeasier to work with. I also believe that going in, and ripping out the heart of a game mechanic, and casually tossing it aside, along with many others, just to "simplify", destroys the original purpose of the mechanic, and kills the project. There's a major difference between the two.
Originally posted by Jaedaken
So we have a rich second ed system, that was greatly fleshed out and expanded in The Will and the Way. And a bland 3rd ed system that seems a lot like sorcerers with different powers (and if you use Unearthed Arcana’s spell points, Psions get outclassed in every way by sorcerers). Yes there are some neat things about 3rd psionics, don't get me wrong. But I feel that as soon as powers got levels assigned to them a small part of me withered up and died inside. And I still don't understand how having a good dexterity gives you the ability to harness more psionic potential, assuming that is, that you are a nomad. Lastly, one of the things that irritates me the most about psionics is that it goes from the way of the unseen, to the way of the blatantly obvious. I know that is easy enough to fix as the DM where I can just drop the displays, however it irks me every time I play in someone else’s campaign (I know, now I am just whining, but hey not like I haven’t heard you do it either).
How do you all feel about the handling of psionics in the two different editions?
Apparently, you must be referring to the Psionics Handbook for 3rd Edition. Personally, I NEVER liked the 2nd Edition system. It's far to easily abused without demanding that the DM be almost totally focusing on what people are doing with it to stop it from being abused, rather than focusing on the game itself. I Detested all things 2nd Edition AD&D - I found it to be complicated for the sale of complexity, and unnecessarily divided. Each class literally was playing pretty much by a different ruleset. I had no desire to ever run a 2nd Edition game.
3rd Edition, however, pretty much made me take a complete 180 on my view. I now enjoyed D&D, and worked with it. the original Psionics Handbook Psionics were, well, problematic and weakened, but the Expanded Psionics Handbook made them useful and independent once more - a viable alternative to Magic. So, I have no problems with psionics using the Expanded Psionics Handbook at all.
Originally posted by monastyrski
I have been waiting for smth. like, and I am afraid that the athas.org version will be of the same sort too.
The problem is that your SKs are VERY multiclassed, so they have the same offence/defence disbalance as deities from Deities and Demigods and 3e FR sources.
I see a SK with n HD to have offensive powers of n level wisard AND n level psion.
What do you mean offense/defense disbalance? Why limit to wizard & psion only? I am at a loss as to what the problem is, apparently you don't like multiclassed characters? Please, elaborate, so I have at least an idea as to what to respond to.
As far as psionics go, I have never had a psionic campaign get to terribly high levels in second ed and so I never ran into some of the balance issues that people warn me about. Perhaps they are too daunting to over come. To start looking into this and to see what a high level psioninicst could do, I made a high level psionicist for my campaign. I spent a few hours a day for several days trying to make a 30th level psionicist. And I am still not done, but he will be truly preposterous when he is done. Of course I am sure that any 30th level character who takes full advantage of their abilities (including followers and whatnot) would also be preposterous.
Originally posted by Elonarc
As you mentioned the Dex-score for the nomad, I assume you are talking about psionics 3.0
They fixed some things in the expanded psionics handbook (3.5), e.g. a psions relevant attribute is now always Int, wether he is a nomad or a savant.
...oh, I hadn't been to the store in a while, I didn't realize they had made a new one. >quickly rushes out to purchase it<
Originally posted by Jaedaken
I see what you mean about simple and robust darkhelm, and I agree with you on many levels. I guess I am just willing to take more complicated in exchange for even more robust, to an extent which exceedes that of many DMs. But yes, there is a point where it is just silly. I wasn't trying to suggest you made a bad move, only inquire more into the nature of your change.
True enough. I personally believe that there is a point where you can make something simple, and yet fully robust. Where you can make the gamesystem mechanics mesh correctly with the flavor of a setting, rather than either a) being opverly simplistic and completely different, or b) be extraordinarily complicated and has an inordinate amount of a learning curve. I actually like how the video game developer known as Blizzard Entertainment puts it, "Easy to learn, difficult to master". Make something that people can quickly grasp the ideas and use, but also make it so that it's flexible and expansive enough that you don't cut out quality for the sake of simplification.
...oh, I hadn't been to the store in a while, I didn't realize they had made a new one. >quickly rushes out to purchase it<
And if that doesn't work for you, try incorporating Mindscapes from Malhavoc Press (and the newer Hyperconcsious book as well), both of which do one heck of a job adding the spicy flavor back into the bland 3e psionicist.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
What do you mean offense/defense disbalance?
I mean that both magic and psionics of D&D 3(.5)e are balanced for single-class casters. E. g., Boccob in Deities and Demigods, p. 61, with his saves=77-80 and wisard spell DC=30+spell level, looks like a battleship armed with a machine gun.
Why limit to wizard & psion only?
No need. SKs may have access to any spells/powers, feats, skills etc. as their prestige class abilities, but their magical or psionic duel has to be finished with a few save-or-die spells/powers - they do not shoot, they throw nukes.
It does not mean that SK must be vulnerable to puny Sadira. But, once again, offence and defence must be balanced. The good examples of such balance are IMHO wizards from ELH, app.1.
I am at a loss as to what the problem is
There is no problem. At least, I seek no one.
There is only a remark. It would be great to see the complete stats of your SKs.apparently you don't like multiclassed characters?
I like 2e multiclassed characters very much. In 3(.5)e, I see multiclassing to be a punishment, and I like it if a character is to be punished.
Originally posted by monastyrski
[b]I mean that both magic and psionics of D&D 3(.5)e are balanced for single-class casters. E. g., Boccob in Deities and Demigods, p. 61, with his saves=77-80 and wisard spell DC=30+spell level, looks like a battleship armed with a machine gun.
I like 2e multiclassed characters very much. In 3(.5)e, I see multiclassing to be a punishment, and I like it if a character is to be punished.
While I agree with the premise, I've included such defficiencies in my advanced being designs. Basically, I don't require that a character be 20th level spellcaster/20th level manifester. I rely off of the level of the spells and powers they can do, and have weighted it more towards magic than psionics, under the premise that it uses psionics to enhance magic - so, my requirements are able to cast 9th level spells and manifest 6th level powers. I also have an automatic +1 spellcaster/+1 manifester level at each level of the Advanced Being prestige class, thereby making it so they gain in both equally, and soon enough, will have their psionic caiabilites filled out. Of course, your very arguments are the arguments I gave *for* my revision of the Advanced Beings, and I find it rather ironic that someone's using an argument I bring up for reasons to not do a straight 1:1 conversion from 2e Advanced beings to 3.5e Advanced beings, as being their reason they dislike the idea of 3.5e advanced beings (who have to multiclass).
I have higher than necessary development of classes for the Sorcerer-Kings, above and beyond the requirements for becoming a Dragon in the first place, because for several thousand years, they had not been Dragons. As such, they would have a great many other things going on in their make-up than just making the requirements for being a Dragon. Hamanu's an exception, but he's the exception to pretty much any rule when it comes to Dragon Kings.