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Fourth Avangion?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gforce99
Aug 10, 2004 8:15:38 Can someone tell me about the Fourth Avangion, Amiska?
Supposedly she/he was hunted by Hammanu.

Thank you
#2
Pennarin
Aug 10, 2004 9:55:40 Read Heat Lightning, the short story found within the adventure Dragon Crown.

She's an old lady who's hunted down into the wastes - were she will transform - by a member of one of Urik's long-standing templar families. The templar is chosen by Hamanu's twisted sense of fun, since the kid during his templarhood ceremony has showed a weird reaction thast has put doubt in the King's mind as to the trust he normally puts into that long-standing family. The young man, once upon his meditating quarry, betrays the King and allies himself with the transforming avangion. He communicates with Hamanu from afar and calls him down upon the creature the King wants exterminated. But the young templar uses his wild talent, which he also used during the templar's ceremony, to make himself appear as the avangion. The gathering power of Hamanu strikes at him and kills him, then retreats. When the old lady, rejuvenated and transformed, comes about she brings the young templar back to life and makes him her agent within Urik's walls since she knows that the templar's family, and thus the young man, will wield considerable power with the King for having removed the avangion.
#3
gforce99
Aug 10, 2004 10:01:51 Thank you very much.

So the Avangion list would include:

#1-Oronis
#2-Nerad (dead)
#3- Korungard (dead)
#4-Amiska

soon #5 Sage

Correct?
#4
Sysane
Aug 10, 2004 10:31:52 Sage? That name doesn't ring a bell. The only other up and coming Avangion I knew of was one of Ablech-Ra's many children (can't remember her name). She has ties to the VA in Raam.
#5
gforce99
Aug 10, 2004 11:10:00
Originally posted by Sysane
Sage? That name doesn't ring a bell. The only other up and coming Avangion I knew of was one of Ablech-Ra's many children (can't remember her name). She has ties to the VA in Raam.

Sage also known as the Wanderer in the Tribe of One series. He was a elf (which makes no sense, so lets so half-elf) that was the grandfather of Sorak, the Nomad. Sage was in the process of becoming a Avangion at the end of the Tribe of One series.

Only this Amaski and Oronis would be actual Avangions in the post-Prism Pentad area.

Tell me more about Ablech-Ra's many children that maybe Avangions, please.
#6
Pennarin
Aug 10, 2004 11:11:00 Yes, but many don't consider most of ToO canon and as such will not count the Sage as an avangion.

Nanda Shatri, leader of Raam's Veiled Alliance and daughter of the Queen, is well on her way to becoming an avangion, although to succeed she will have to meet with Oronis to get the spell, as all other avangions had to do (presumably Amiska and the Sage did too).
#7
gforce99
Aug 10, 2004 11:21:18 Thank you again. Are there any other perservers out in Athas that are close to becoming Avangions?
#8
Pennarin
Aug 10, 2004 11:24:23 Outside of homebrew that's about it.
#9
theocracity
Aug 10, 2004 11:38:03 Just curious...why is Tribe of One not considered canon?
#10
gforce99
Aug 10, 2004 11:45:30
Originally posted by Theocracity
Just curious...why is Tribe of One not considered canon?

Because the author of the Sorak novels knew less about DS than many on this board or the DS email list would like. Also there is relatively happy & positive-ending to the Tribe of One that many DS fans hate. Masacistic I guess. If anyone has read Broken Blade, you know that Hawke's endings weren't always so rosey.

I personally think their great with a few big mistakes. All of which, if ignored, can still allow a DS reader the fun of reading more about Athas.
One of the cool ideas I got from reading them (and I am re-reading right now), is that the Nomad's grandfather was trying to become a Avangion and that it reveals ancient history of the elves and their chance for renewal.
#11
Sysane
Aug 10, 2004 11:46:42
Just curious...why is Tribe of One not considered canon?

A lot of inconsistances to core DS are in that series. I myself liked the series but wouldn't consider much of it canon. Especially the wanderer being an Avangion. Thats complete kank dung.
#12
gforce99
Aug 10, 2004 11:48:09
Originally posted by Sysane
Especially the wanderer being an Avangion. Thats complete kank dung.

Why exactly?
#13
Sysane
Aug 10, 2004 11:59:18 If you have read what they have on the wanderer in the campaign books the last thing the wanderer would have been was an Avangion.

Granted, some of the info wasn't out on the wanderer when the ToO series hit the shelves but the whole concept of him being an advanced being and being Sorak's father to boot reeks of cheese.
#14
nytcrawlr
Aug 10, 2004 21:25:54
Originally posted by GFORCE99
If anyone has read Broken Blade, you know that Hawke's endings weren't always so rosey.

Yeah, no kidding.

Classic DS ending for that series at the end of that book.
#15
nytcrawlr
Aug 10, 2004 21:26:57
Originally posted by Sysane
Granted, some of the info wasn't out on the wanderer when the ToO series hit the shelves but the whole concept of him being an advanced being and being Sorak's father to boot reeks of cheese.

Agreed.

I liked the novels too, but that was my least favorite part of the series.
#16
zombiegleemax
Aug 10, 2004 22:24:26 I wouldn't say that Nanda Shatri's contact with Oronis is mandatory. Through her VA position, perhaps she came into possession of some of Korungard's notes, combined with her own access to her mother's dragon metamorphisis research (purely speculation, I have no clue as to the relationship with her mother) she might be able to puzzle it out herself.

Alternatively, there is really no reason to think that someone else couldn't come to the same research and process as Oronis, especially someone who might have reason to be aware of the dragon and the avangion metamorphisis in the first place, and be at the stage of their own development where they would understand the potential for a combination of magic and psionics.
#17
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Aug 10, 2004 22:27:40
Originally posted by GFORCE99
Thank you again. Are there any other perservers out in Athas that are close to becoming Avangions?

Umm, doubtful. Since Oronis kinda invented the process, and I believe in Defilers and PReservers it states he's not about to share the process again, the individual would have to convince him that it's a good idea and stuff.
#18
zombiegleemax
Aug 10, 2004 22:30:19 Or simply 'invent' the process themselves (something I highly doubt I would ever allow a player to do).
#19
Pennarin
Aug 10, 2004 22:46:34
Originally posted by Barmoz
Alternatively, there is really no reason to think that someone else couldn't come to the same research and process as Oronis, especially someone who might have reason to be aware of the dragon and the avangion metamorphisis in the first place, and be at the stage of their own development where they would understand the potential for a combination of magic and psionics.

This should not be attempted by a DM for one of its players or NPCs, IMO, since it took 1000 years for Keltis, a dragon and Champion or Rajaat with profound understanding of magic, to come to developp the avagion metamorphosis spell. He knew that advanced beings were possible since he was one, yet mortal researchers today would have no info on advanced beings - outside of maybe knowing they exist or are a possibility - and would start at an even lower place in the research ladder. It would take more than a thousand years.
#20
korvar
Aug 11, 2004 2:36:41 I may allow my players to, but then they have access to a defiler's Dragon Transformation notes (compiled by a genius who worked out the Dragon Transformation by themselves during the time of the Cleansing wars). They should be able to study them and (eventually) work out the corresponding Preserver Transformation (Avangion) from that.

But that's a very long term goal...
#21
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Aug 11, 2004 4:06:19 I'm one of the stricter DM's. basically - the players a)have to discover that it exists, and b) set themselves out to find it. and I don't make that information very easy to get. There's als the problem of convincing Oronis to basically go against his current decision, and teach you the process.
#22
zombiegleemax
Aug 11, 2004 7:22:45 I can certainly understand not allowing it, but I don't really agree that the process should be so hard to figure out.

In my mind, the biggest barrier should be the requirements to qualify in the first place. It's not clear that it took Dregoth (or Rajaat or whoever you believe did it) a thousand years to develop the dragon process in the first place. It could be that Oronis took so long because he had to undo the dragon process, not because the avangion process was so difficult to discover once you were looking for it.
#23
Sysane
Aug 11, 2004 7:53:36 I could see a SK leaking out a fake spell for the Avangion metamorphsis which would actually destory the would be advance being if not bind them to the SKs will.
#24
elonarc
Aug 11, 2004 8:42:51 There was a post some months ago in which a DM told about his last campaign. A player thought he had a book with the avangion metamorphosis spell and spent ages to research it and to get all the components.
He transformed into an animalistic stage Dragon
#25
gforce99
Aug 11, 2004 8:51:38
Originally posted by Elonarc
There was a post some months ago in which a DM told about his last campaign. A player thought he had a book with the avangion metamorphosis spell and spent ages to research it and to get all the components.
He transformed into an animalistic stage Dragon

Man, thats cruel!
So Dark Sun-like.
#26
zombiegleemax
Aug 11, 2004 9:04:22 Back to tribe of one for a sec, and its cheesyness. Sorak, Roleplayed, that was retarded I had to skip that part.... So yea, keep it to say its in your collection, but dont use it.... Unless you wana use that crack plant that they had.... It could bring down your halfgiant quick
#27
gforce99
Aug 11, 2004 9:15:03 I thought the part where Sorak, Ryana and Valsvis(sp?) were RPing in the casino was kinda cool. Oh well.
#28
Sysane
Aug 11, 2004 9:24:32 I like some parts of ToO. It introduced the gambling game Hawke's Gambit (its not the role playing one) which I use in my campaign. If only Hawke had done a bit more research on DS as a whole he could have pulled off a good novel series.
#29
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Aug 11, 2004 12:29:13 hnestly disliked a great many things, ranging from kank-riding elves, to the rather poorly developed storyline, to the extremely un-athasian setting Hawke developed for it. But, like in all things, I did take some nibbles of ideas to work with, like, for instance, the idea that Avangions get artifacts and use their energy to achieve the next stage of their metamorphosis - even if I pretty much scrap everything else about Avangions he has.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gforce99 Aug 10, 2004 8:15:38	Can someone tell me about the Fourth Avangion, Amiska? Supposedly she/he was hunted by Hammanu. Thank you
#2 Pennarin Aug 10, 2004 9:55:40	Read Heat Lightning, the short story found within the adventure Dragon Crown. She's an old lady who's hunted down into the wastes - were she will transform - by a member of one of Urik's long-standing templar families. The templar is chosen by Hamanu's twisted sense of fun, since the kid during his templarhood ceremony has showed a weird reaction thast has put doubt in the King's mind as to the trust he normally puts into that long-standing family. The young man, once upon his meditating quarry, betrays the King and allies himself with the transforming avangion. He communicates with Hamanu from afar and calls him down upon the creature the King wants exterminated. But the young templar uses his wild talent, which he also used during the templar's ceremony, to make himself appear as the avangion. The gathering power of Hamanu strikes at him and kills him, then retreats. When the old lady, rejuvenated and transformed, comes about she brings the young templar back to life and makes him her agent within Urik's walls since she knows that the templar's family, and thus the young man, will wield considerable power with the King for having removed the avangion.
#3 gforce99 Aug 10, 2004 10:01:51	Thank you very much. So the Avangion list would include: #1-Oronis #2-Nerad (dead) #3- Korungard (dead) #4-Amiska soon #5 Sage Correct?
#4 Sysane Aug 10, 2004 10:31:52	Sage? That name doesn't ring a bell. The only other up and coming Avangion I knew of was one of Ablech-Ra's many children (can't remember her name). She has ties to the VA in Raam.
#5 gforce99 Aug 10, 2004 11:10:00	Originally posted by Sysane Sage? That name doesn't ring a bell. The only other up and coming Avangion I knew of was one of Ablech-Ra's many children (can't remember her name). She has ties to the VA in Raam. Sage also known as the Wanderer in the Tribe of One series. He was a elf (which makes no sense, so lets so half-elf) that was the grandfather of Sorak, the Nomad. Sage was in the process of becoming a Avangion at the end of the Tribe of One series. Only this Amaski and Oronis would be actual Avangions in the post-Prism Pentad area. Tell me more about Ablech-Ra's many children that maybe Avangions, please.
#6 Pennarin Aug 10, 2004 11:11:00	Yes, but many don't consider most of ToO canon and as such will not count the Sage as an avangion. Nanda Shatri, leader of Raam's Veiled Alliance and daughter of the Queen, is well on her way to becoming an avangion, although to succeed she will have to meet with Oronis to get the spell, as all other avangions had to do (presumably Amiska and the Sage did too).
#7 gforce99 Aug 10, 2004 11:21:18	Thank you again. Are there any other perservers out in Athas that are close to becoming Avangions?
#8 Pennarin Aug 10, 2004 11:24:23	Outside of homebrew that's about it.
#9 theocracity Aug 10, 2004 11:38:03	Just curious...why is Tribe of One not considered canon?
#10 gforce99 Aug 10, 2004 11:45:30	Originally posted by Theocracity Just curious...why is Tribe of One not considered canon? Because the author of the Sorak novels knew less about DS than many on this board or the DS email list would like. Also there is relatively happy & positive-ending to the Tribe of One that many DS fans hate. Masacistic I guess. If anyone has read Broken Blade, you know that Hawke's endings weren't always so rosey. I personally think their great with a few big mistakes. All of which, if ignored, can still allow a DS reader the fun of reading more about Athas. One of the cool ideas I got from reading them (and I am re-reading right now), is that the Nomad's grandfather was trying to become a Avangion and that it reveals ancient history of the elves and their chance for renewal.
#11 Sysane Aug 10, 2004 11:46:42	Just curious...why is Tribe of One not considered canon? A lot of inconsistances to core DS are in that series. I myself liked the series but wouldn't consider much of it canon. Especially the wanderer being an Avangion. Thats complete kank dung.
#12 gforce99 Aug 10, 2004 11:48:09	Originally posted by Sysane Especially the wanderer being an Avangion. Thats complete kank dung. Why exactly?
#13 Sysane Aug 10, 2004 11:59:18	If you have read what they have on the wanderer in the campaign books the last thing the wanderer would have been was an Avangion. Granted, some of the info wasn't out on the wanderer when the ToO series hit the shelves but the whole concept of him being an advanced being and being Sorak's father to boot reeks of cheese.
#14 nytcrawlr Aug 10, 2004 21:25:54	Originally posted by GFORCE99 If anyone has read Broken Blade, you know that Hawke's endings weren't always so rosey. Yeah, no kidding. Classic DS ending for that series at the end of that book.
#15 nytcrawlr Aug 10, 2004 21:26:57	Originally posted by Sysane Granted, some of the info wasn't out on the wanderer when the ToO series hit the shelves but the whole concept of him being an advanced being and being Sorak's father to boot reeks of cheese. Agreed. I liked the novels too, but that was my least favorite part of the series.
#16 zombiegleemax Aug 10, 2004 22:24:26	I wouldn't say that Nanda Shatri's contact with Oronis is mandatory. Through her VA position, perhaps she came into possession of some of Korungard's notes, combined with her own access to her mother's dragon metamorphisis research (purely speculation, I have no clue as to the relationship with her mother) she might be able to puzzle it out herself. Alternatively, there is really no reason to think that someone else couldn't come to the same research and process as Oronis, especially someone who might have reason to be aware of the dragon and the avangion metamorphisis in the first place, and be at the stage of their own development where they would understand the potential for a combination of magic and psionics.
#17 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Aug 10, 2004 22:27:40	Originally posted by GFORCE99 Thank you again. Are there any other perservers out in Athas that are close to becoming Avangions? Umm, doubtful. Since Oronis kinda invented the process, and I believe in Defilers and PReservers it states he's not about to share the process again, the individual would have to convince him that it's a good idea and stuff.
#18 zombiegleemax Aug 10, 2004 22:30:19	Or simply 'invent' the process themselves (something I highly doubt I would ever allow a player to do).
#19 Pennarin Aug 10, 2004 22:46:34	Originally posted by Barmoz Alternatively, there is really no reason to think that someone else couldn't come to the same research and process as Oronis, especially someone who might have reason to be aware of the dragon and the avangion metamorphisis in the first place, and be at the stage of their own development where they would understand the potential for a combination of magic and psionics. This should not be attempted by a DM for one of its players or NPCs, IMO, since it took 1000 years for Keltis, a dragon and Champion or Rajaat with profound understanding of magic, to come to developp the avagion metamorphosis spell. He knew that advanced beings were possible since he was one, yet mortal researchers today would have no info on advanced beings - outside of maybe knowing they exist or are a possibility - and would start at an even lower place in the research ladder. It would take more than a thousand years.
#20 korvar Aug 11, 2004 2:36:41	I may allow my players to, but then they have access to a defiler's Dragon Transformation notes (compiled by a genius who worked out the Dragon Transformation by themselves during the time of the Cleansing wars). They should be able to study them and (eventually) work out the corresponding Preserver Transformation (Avangion) from that. But that's a very long term goal...
#21 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Aug 11, 2004 4:06:19	I'm one of the stricter DM's. basically - the players a)have to discover that it exists, and b) set themselves out to find it. and I don't make that information very easy to get. There's als the problem of convincing Oronis to basically go against his current decision, and teach you the process.
#22 zombiegleemax Aug 11, 2004 7:22:45	I can certainly understand not allowing it, but I don't really agree that the process should be so hard to figure out. In my mind, the biggest barrier should be the requirements to qualify in the first place. It's not clear that it took Dregoth (or Rajaat or whoever you believe did it) a thousand years to develop the dragon process in the first place. It could be that Oronis took so long because he had to undo the dragon process, not because the avangion process was so difficult to discover once you were looking for it.
#23 Sysane Aug 11, 2004 7:53:36	I could see a SK leaking out a fake spell for the Avangion metamorphsis which would actually destory the would be advance being if not bind them to the SKs will.
#24 elonarc Aug 11, 2004 8:42:51	There was a post some months ago in which a DM told about his last campaign. A player thought he had a book with the avangion metamorphosis spell and spent ages to research it and to get all the components. He transformed into an animalistic stage Dragon
#25 gforce99 Aug 11, 2004 8:51:38	Originally posted by Elonarc There was a post some months ago in which a DM told about his last campaign. A player thought he had a book with the avangion metamorphosis spell and spent ages to research it and to get all the components. He transformed into an animalistic stage Dragon Man, thats cruel! So Dark Sun-like.
#26 zombiegleemax Aug 11, 2004 9:04:22	Back to tribe of one for a sec, and its cheesyness. Sorak, Roleplayed, that was retarded I had to skip that part.... So yea, keep it to say its in your collection, but dont use it.... Unless you wana use that crack plant that they had.... It could bring down your halfgiant quick
#27 gforce99 Aug 11, 2004 9:15:03	I thought the part where Sorak, Ryana and Valsvis(sp?) were RPing in the casino was kinda cool. Oh well.
#28 Sysane Aug 11, 2004 9:24:32	I like some parts of ToO. It introduced the gambling game Hawke's Gambit (its not the role playing one) which I use in my campaign. If only Hawke had done a bit more research on DS as a whole he could have pulled off a good novel series.
#29 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Aug 11, 2004 12:29:13	hnestly disliked a great many things, ranging from kank-riding elves, to the rather poorly developed storyline, to the extremely un-athasian setting Hawke developed for it. But, like in all things, I did take some nibbles of ideas to work with, like, for instance, the idea that Avangions get artifacts and use their energy to achieve the next stage of their metamorphosis - even if I pretty much scrap everything else about Avangions he has.