Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Pennarin Aug 10, 2004 21:43:26	I sent an email to Gab on this but the answer was unsatisfactory, and a little confusing at that (thanks for answering me anyway Gab ). Mach2.5 doesn't know what to make of the text found in TotDL either. See page 19, TotDL, under Ritual. Read from the section that starts with: "For every level above 20th, [...]" Here is my question: Its unclear weither they're saying that, a) levels above 20 when in the process of becoming a t'liz are detrimental to your chances of survival, or that b) *after* your transformation is completed, any levels above 20 that you get over the years bring you 10% closer to destruction (which would give you a straight 10 levels of advancement and then whack you're dead). Interpretation a) makes more sense but who would become a t'liz if research showed you that by becoming a t'liz you would sign your death sentence, as b) seems to imply?
#2 zombiegleemax Aug 10, 2004 21:47:54	Either view means that there can never be any t'liz of lvl 30 or higher. Just seems rather messed up. My take on it is that there is a 10% chance, after one has become a t'liz, or the energies killing the t'liz (again), but that percentage is non cumulative. The other view, of a 10% chance per level above 20 that the transformation doesn't work and the prospective t'liz dies, just sounds like backwards logic; that the more powerful you are, the less chance of surviving the transformation?
#3 Pennarin Aug 10, 2004 22:04:06	It says there's a "10% cumulative chance that the t'liz's body, robbed of its soul, simply ceases to function; it can no longer support the energies of the spirit". But earlier in the paragraph it says that "Once the spell is cast, the t'liz is simply an animated, intelligent creature, completely without life or soul - the soul is irrevocably lost to the body". Nowhere in the sections does it say that the Gray spirit with which the t'liz makes a pact actually enters the t'liz's body to occupy it. Now which is it: does the t'liz has a spirit or not? and whose?
#4 nytcrawlr Aug 10, 2004 23:15:32	Originally posted by Pennarin [b]It says there's a "10% cumulative chance that the t'liz's body, robbed of its soul, simply ceases to function; it can no longer support the energies of the spirit" I'd say nuke all of that, cause that is just damn silly. Especially when it says earlier that it doesn't even have a soul.
#5 Kamelion Aug 11, 2004 4:28:22	The limit of 30th level is a legacy from 2e, where there were no t'liz of higher than 30th level (although no reason was given in 2e for this cap). As written, I'd say the TotDL t'liz only runs the risk of ceasing to function during the actual ritual. There isn't anything that specifically states that a spirit enters the body of the t'liz, only that its energies sustain the undead. The t'liz is controlled by its own mind, which still functions after undeath. Note that under 2e there was no mention of contacting a spirit from the Grey - instead the t'liz was sustained by magical ointments and the like. I had the impression that these ointments eventually ceased to be effective, once the t'liz got to be too old, leading to its disintegration and the level limit. Under 2e it seemed to me that the really old t'liz simply fell to bits over time. The TotDL version does seem a little extreme and I'm not sure it captures the intent of the 2e version (although I may just be being dumb and reading it wrong). If we are going to stay with the idea that a t'liz deteriorates, perhaps a cumulative Constitution penalty would work better. You could then conceivably have very old t'liz literally held together by Con-enhancing spells and items. Idle thoughts...
#6 elonarc Aug 11, 2004 4:56:06	perhaps a cumulative Constitution penalty would work better An Undead with a Constitution score? Kamelion, Kamelion...
#7 Kamelion Aug 11, 2004 7:12:32	Take their starting Con score before becoming undead and apply a cumulative penalty to that total to get a duration before dissolution. No need to give them an actual stat
#8 elonarc Aug 11, 2004 7:19:03	Nice try to get out of that one...;) but it should work to show the detoriation (sp?) of the individual t'liz.
#9 Kamelion Aug 11, 2004 7:36:13	Well, it's just an idle thought. I like the image of a t'liz slowly crumbling away over time and, seeing as I would have the "mortal" stats on-hand, using a physical stat like Con to get a duration of dissolution would work for me. For the official t'liz in TotDL I'm not sure that a level cap is even necessary. If included, it would need a system that doesn't require the mortal stats but still represents physical deterioration somehow - assuming you go with the 2e rationale. Under 3e, with the spirit from the Gray involved, you can move it away from the physical, which (given the immunities of the undead in 3e) is a smoother solution.
#10 gab Aug 11, 2004 19:35:16	Yes, the 30th-level limit is a legacy item from 2E. Remember, TotDL came out before the Epic-level rules; I had no idea how higher levels would be treated. The original release of TotDL was in 2001. Terrors beyond Tyr states that t'liz vary in level from 18 to 30th. The cumulative 10% chance was a way of ensuring that the t'liz never got above 30th level. The pact the wizard makes with the spirit from the Gray eventually consumes the body. The more powerful you are, the more power the once-living body must endure. The wizard's mind is controls the power, but the body has to contain it. I agree a better mechanic could be in place for that process. Suggestions welcome.
#11 zombiegleemax Aug 11, 2004 19:50:48	A simple change: just make it non cumulative.
#12 Pennarin Aug 11, 2004 20:03:08	I'd say every level or every King's Age, the t'liz is forced to make a d% check to see if its body finally gives out: 10% straight chance it crumples every time.
#13 nytcrawlr Aug 11, 2004 20:52:02	Yeah, a 10% non-cumulative chance works for me too.
#14 jon_oracle_of_athas Aug 12, 2004 3:00:55	If we need a replacement mechanic for an obsolete mechanic at all.
#15 zombiegleemax Aug 12, 2004 3:15:25	I rather like the fact that all of the undead templates are a win and lose situation. None of them are perfect; there's a seriously inheirent flaw built into each one of them. I say leave it for the flavor.
#16 Pennarin Aug 12, 2004 3:43:08	Originally posted by Mach2.5 I rather like the fact that all of the undead templates are a win and lose situation. None of them are perfect; there's a seriously inheirent flaw built into each one of them. I say leave it for the flavor. After making it something other than a lose-lose situation (its not the right terminology but what the heck).