The worst so far I've read is Thoughts of Darkness the book directly tells the DM to fudge saving throws, fake madness checks and auto-fail/save them for the PCs, force PCs to be captured, give enemies immortality contingencies, and generally be a dishonest DM to further the weak story along. It totally betrays the trust PC's might have in their DM. I've always been of the opinion that a DM should obey the rules for the most part, fudge only if it makes for a more exciting and fun experience for a player (and make it believable), and have contingency plans that don't involve magical necklaces that teleport a dead enemy away and automatically cast limited wish and restoration on them (so that they can then fight until the PC's are 'subdued'). This isn't in the flavor of Rloft at all. There are entire Duregar encounters of 20 at a time each armed with plate mails +2 and shields +2!
Only slightly better is The Forgotten terror, which traps the PCs in the domain within the pommel gem of a magical dagger. Great premise, terrible railroading. They have to collect facet rubies and jump from facet to facet like some kind of king's quest video game. Still, at least this adventure idea has some merit, but the endless "You are now in a room, there are lovely nymphs that circle a stone slab with a beatiful lady on it, what do you do?" then when they figure out the trick to getting out it becomes "You are in a room, there are ogres here that cry out in rage, the floor is covered in ash, and your companions are trapped in ruby monoliths, what do you do?" and so forth and so on until they finally get out (after they are forced to fight the 'End boss').
The best Ravenloft adventure product in my opinion is Castles Forlorn, which is a great chaotic time-twisting series of adventures that pleases any DM or group who enjoy free-flowing sessions. I strongly suggest picking it up.
Anybody else read these adventures and agree/disagree or have worse/better ones to share? We've all got Night of the Walking Dead, which is a passable and enjoyable adventure (with just a little railroading), but are there others which are downright disgusting in thier railroading like ToD?
I still shudder at the thought of such a heresy ...
I think Ship of Horrors and Touch of Death are also strong contenders for the 'worst-ever'-title...
These kind of adventures are the ones that drive players away from ravenloft, in my opinion. I mean, the first time you're forced into becoming a flesh golem no matter what and losing your character (even temporarily) is the kind of thing that would make me quit playing with that particular DM, even though it may be scripted in the adventure. Now, possibly turning one player into a flesh golem, if they inadvertantly die somewhere and were harvested by evil golem-making minions, now that's an interesting plotline. I applaud your players for running away from such a fight like good ravenloft adventurers should.
Personally I don't think Touch of Death is as bad as all that, but maybe that's because I have a fondness for good old Stone Prophet. Isn't Touch of Death the one with the cat goddess? At least the players don't have to be turned into mummies or something in that one, though there is a fair share of railroading.
I still need to get my mits on Ship of Horror.
Anybody played/read Requiem (the one that turns the players undead)? How's that one?
I think Ship of Horrors and Touch of Death are also strong contenders for the 'worst-ever'-title... [/b]
Actually, the first party of Ship of Horrors is very interesting.
The second part can be salvaged.
The third part, where they meet the necromancer, is dumb.
Joël
Hour of the Knife also kills the players to advance the story. It is slightly creepier as you don't have to play the deaths and the rest of the party does not know. But the end result is the same.
~~~
On the other end of the scale, "Roots of Evil" was just godawful. I tend to pretend it never existed. "From the Shadows" is better, but not much.
While I don't have anythng against "Vecna Lives" or indeed against anything Vecna related (I actually think he's cool) I happen to believe he should NEVER have been brought into the Ravenloft setting. Mega-powerful demigod liches JUST DO NOT MAKE FOR GOOD GOTHIC HORROR. Remove it from it's Ravenloft context and you'll probably have a decent Greyhawk adventure in your hands...
(btw, NotWD had cover art by Robh Ruppel. That alone is almost enough reason to like it! :D )
Originally posted by valhallan
Ah yes, the "Killed to become x and further plotline" style. A similar thing happens with the puppet one (I can't remember the name). Carnival of Souls? Maybe that's a novel. Maybe its the From the Shadows one, well, in any case, the PCs are all turned into puppets at the same time, and its totally unbelievable and unfair to the players.
I believe that you are thinking of The Created, valhallan. The is the adventure where the characters are in Odaire when Maligno, the carrionette, becomes the darklord. The other carrionettes then begin killing off the adults and/or stealing human bodies for their own purposes.
Hour of the Knife also kills the players to advance the story. It is slightly creepier as you don't have to play the deaths and the rest of the party does not know. But the end result is the same.
Seeing as how i'll most likely never get my hands on this adventure, care to spoil it for me? What happens?
Originally posted by Enoch Van Garret
Seeing as how i'll most likely never get my hands on this adventure, care to spoil it for me? What happens?
It takes place in Pardion and as such has many, many dopelgangers. If a player is ever left alone with someone who is really a dopelganger or seperates from the party near one, even for a second, they are assumed to have been killed and been replaced by one. When there is only one PC left they are assumed killed as well.
Part One of the story continues until everyone has been killed and replaced after which they are ressurected.
This is the perfect Ravenloft adventure, it has history, story, Strahd, NE gypsies (like they should be), great maps, great description of the villagers' attitudes, fortune-telling that gives bonuses to locations based on the cards, multiple possible secondary objectives of Strahd based on the cards, locations of important items based on the cards... its fantastic.
If anyone was considering finding this sucker sometime I would highly suggest it. I can see how this adventure sparked an entire campaign world.
Originally posted by The_Jester
It takes place in Pardion and as such has many, many dopelgangers. If a player is ever left alone with someone who is really a dopelganger or seperates from the party near one, even for a second, they are assumed to have been killed and been replaced by one. When there is only one PC left they are assumed killed as well.
Part One of the story continues until everyone has been killed and replaced after which they are ressurected.
Oh man, that's solid gold.
Originally posted by Mortepierre
Let's not forget that the Forgotten Terror was a FR/RL crossover.
I still shudder at the thought of such a heresy ...
That was so lame. I believe that the adventure took place inside a realm which was in a jewel that was in Ravenloft. So the players went to Ravenloft, but couldn't do anything besides break the jewel. Why bother
Worst? Thoughts of Darkness is flawed for the reasons already posted. I also am not a big fan of PCs "die" and get turned into "X" mods.
As an aside: The best 2E RLesque adventure put out for a non Ravenloft setting is the Mystara mini-Box set adventure "Night of the Vampire". For 1-3rd level PCs, the characters wind up at a wedding ceremony where a vampire has decided to claim the bride as his own. As all hell breaks loose the PCs have to hole up for the night against the "bad things", possibly trying to save as amny NPCs as possible. Assuming they live till morning they have to go stake the vampire or endure more nights of terror.
-Eric Gorman
Worst: Ship of Horrors. God I hated this module. Poorly written, incohesive, stupid resolution (I hate "kill the darklord at the end of the module" adventures more than "kill PCs turn them into 'X'" modules). Requires too much DM-salvaging (if I wanted/had time to make stuff up on my own I wouldn't have paid $10 for a module). The darklord is uninspired.
Originally posted by HvF
I will second that Meredoth is currently the least inspired DL.
Indeed. I hope the Gaz covering this sea will reabilitate him.
Joël
Made the villagers in the town really wierd and the players got really freaked out, a great atmosphere with the storm coming, dead things, a swamp - and a bunch of inbred hicks. Definitely better than some of the other adventures ive read.
Its a good example of a railroading story that hides the tracks, they dont have much choice, but its easy to make it LOOK like they do.
Were the
Original Van Richten's guides
Forbidden Lore box set (with the Tarokka deck)
Campions of the Myst
Islands of Terror
Carinval
I also thought the Children of the Night series was very useful.
Revised Boxed Set
Islands of Terror
Darklords
All Van Richten Guides
Monster Compendium 1 &3
Masque of the Red Death
Worst:
All the modules (just not a module guy at all)
Monster Compendium 2: Children of the Night (waste of money)
Worst:
All the modules (just not a module guy at all)
Monster Compendium 2: Children of the Night (waste of money)
But, but, but... Jezra Wagner! The Brain! The Midnight Slasher! Jacqueline Montarri! Desmond LARouche! So many, many, great NPC's!Let's just say, I disagree.
Domains of Dread
Monstrous Compediums all (these and planescape's are the best)
Darklords
Carnival
Nightmare Lands
almost all novels
Van Richten's all
Champions of mists,children of the night
all gazzeteers and netbooks for unique elements and flavour (faiths,holidays, etc)
WORST
all but a few (4-5) adventures which should be primarily used to get info from places,people and some ideas for -however- entirely different scenarios
Personally, i've used the Dominia plot from Bleak House, When Roses Bloom not till the end cause it sucks to see Soth humiliated(try attach the Spectre of the Black Rose instead after some time), Castles Forlorn, and the Requiem Trilogy is unfolding(not exactly the same), NOTWD and well, maybe a few more might come to memory
On the other hand I must say I6 was completely blew me away. Without that module I would not be playing Ravenloft. Well, I guess none of us would be considering it's what started the Ravenloft campaign setting.
As for being all huffed over an FR/RL crossover, don't forget that a lot of Darklords, including some rather well-liked ones, came from that land.
And is FR/RL really as improbable a crossover as Planescape/RL? (Die Vecna Die!)
I also don't like the CotN series btw.
Domains of Dread
House of Strahd
Carnival
The Nightmare Lands
I, Strahd (only the first one)
The Evil Eye
CotN:Ghosts
All the Van Richten Guides
Worst:
Adam's Wrath
CotN
ampiresRoots of Evil
1- How many of the domains (and lords) from Islands of Terror were reprinted in Domains of Dread (the DoD hardback did come out after the revised boxed set for 2e correct?)?
2- Were there any new domains introducted in the Forgotten Lore boxed set and, if so, how many were reprinted in either DoD or the revised boxed set (whichever was printed last)?
3- There was a dark lord who was a doctor in charge of a mental hospital...where was this domain first detailed?
4- What was the 2e product (I think it was 2e at least) The Shadow Rift like? Any details on that place, like the 3e version, or something totally different?
Ok, thanks in advance for taking the time to read this and for all the help.
2: Just one, Kalidnay. It was in DoD but many wished they'd saved the space.
3: Dominia, detailed in Red Box and heavily detailed in the adventure Bleak House.
4: It was a fight-fest. Mega combat. It came complete with a map and several building outlines as well as many descriptions. The Gaz entry takes the best of that and keeps it.
Oh, and the print order went like this:
Black Box, Darklords, Islands of Terror, Red Box and then many, many years later Domains of Dread.
And, if you don't mind...
How many domains found in Islands of Terror didn't make their way into DoD (ie: is it worth picking up Islands of Terror if I have DoD)?
If I'm looking for information on Dominia should I pick up the red box or Bleak House?
And beyond the information on Dominia is there anything interesting in the red box not found in DoD?
Again, thanks for all the help.
I guess I just wished it wasn't included.
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Main%20Page.htm
Gives the list, just use the process of elimination...
Although Wildlands and Nidala were mentioned they weren't detailed. Not enough room.
Domains of Dread is far superiour to the Rec Box in most ways. Much of the text is copied over directly but the rules for Fear and Horror were updated and make DoD a worthier book. And there is a wad of other information.
That said the Red Box does come with a set of Tarroka cards and a couple poster maps which are very nice. And DoD doesn't have the stats of Rudolph VanRichten.
But if you're going for a second edition campaign DoD is the way to go.
As for the Bleak House/Red Box argument it really is a no contest. Red Box has a very, very brief description of the island and Darklord but no real details. Bleak House, in addition to detailing the 'Death' of VanRichten and detailing his familial home has a complete and huge work up on Dominia.
Maps of the land, the assylum, the treatment techniques, the stats of multiple people and a new strain of vamparism. There is an insane amount of detail behind that product.
And when you mentioned the death of Van Richten I noticed you highlighted it...was there something which suggested he didn't really die or some other mystery which was connected with his death?
Edit: And while we're at it...I tried to pick up Bleak House but wasn't able to find a copy as of yet (though I'll keep at it). So can anybody relate the story of Van Richten's death (in as much or little details as you want)? Thanks.
VanRichten is stricken with horrible nightmares and seeks psychiatric treatment, but unfortunately ends up in the asylum in Dominia. Physically and mentally shattered he relies on the help of adventurers to escape (or they rely on him) and together they journey to Martira Bay where they find the cause of the night terrors.
This leads VanRichten to confront Baron Metus, the vampire who killed his son, and then back to the ancestral VanRichten home. There Rudolph confronts the ghost of a Vistani he slew and the spirits of those companions killed by his curse.
There are four different endings to the story, all determined by a random draw of the cards. In each ending VanRichten becomes trapped in the house or dies, but does not necessarily stay dead. In each ending though, VanRichten is one with the spirit of the house and in a position to return in 25 years for the Time of Unparalleled Darkness.
I assume that Metus being killed has a lot to do with the actions of the PCs or is that a "railroad" death (or is he even killed for that matter)?
And according to Domains of Dread van Richten died destroying the darklord of some domain (female vampire as I recall). Is that one of the endings or something that was latter written up for pure fluff? And (according to DoD) do only the PCs know of his death or is that generally left up to the DM?
And, last question, where was this ancestral house located and what was its history (did van Richten live there, did he even know of it before the adventure, etc)?
Once more, thanks for helping out my campaign until I can get my hands on the boxed set. I'll be sure and check out ebay asap.
Edit: Whoops, almost forgot; Did another product (2e or 3e) ever explain what this "Time of Unparalleled Darkness" was all about or was this something that simply got lost in the TSR/WotC transfer?
By the way Jester, if you're ever up for a most helpful forumer award, please let me know where to vote. lol
I assume that Metus being killed has a lot to do with the actions of the PCs or is that a "railroad" death (or is he even killed for that matter)?
I think the PC's will proablably kill him, but may avoid it. Metus caused the nightmares using a crippled vistani psion trapped in a machine. I think freeing him stopped the nightmares.
And according to Domains of Dread van Richten died destroying the darklord of some domain (female vampire as I recall). Is that one of the endings or something that was latter written up for pure fluff?
The Richten Haus, his family's estate became a pocket domain ruled by the ghost of Madame radanovich, the Vistani Raunie who sold Erasmus to Metus in the first place.
And (according to DoD) do only the PCs know of his death or is that generally left up to the DM?
Probably left to the DM, but in the 3E materials, his heirs the twins refer to him as "missing and presumed dead." They've erected an empty grave for him, but don't know anything for sure.
And, last question, where was this ancestral house located and what was its history (did van Richten live there, did he even know of it before the adventure, etc)?
he lived there as a child in darkon, but the house became an island domain when Radanovich died cursing him.
Edit: Whoops, almost forgot; Did another product (2e or 3e) ever explain what this "Time of Unparalleled Darkness" was all about or was this something that simply got lost in the TSR/WotC transfer?
Not lost, but not yet explained. It's still in the far future of the timeline, 775BC. I forget exactly, but at the current rate of game years vs. real years, we won't hit it until something like 2015. It's aluded to in several places as a coming apocolypse.
So then Radanovich was a ghost and not a vampire? I'm not sure where I got the impression she was a vampire. Is it stated anywhere how she died in the first place (originally that is)? And I assume the domain (and thus the house) collapsed after her death (assuming you're using DoD which says van Richten killed her as he died)?
And as a side note, van Richten died in 750 (according to DoD in 2e at least) so that would make 25 years later right at 775. Has something been changed for 3e as to the time of his death or was the 25 years mentioned above something else altogether (I'm just curious here as I won't be playing using the 3e material anyway but it's still an interesting topic)?
So thanks again for all the help to one who has been gone from the lands of Ravenloft for far too long.
So then Radanovich was a ghost and not a vampire? I'm not sure where I got the impression she was a vampire. Is it stated anywhere how she died in the first place (originally that is)?
After she and the other Vistani who were with her revealed to van Richten that they had sold Erasmus (Rudolph's son) to a vampire, he snapped and set the zombies Azalin had lent him on them, tearing nearly everyone to pieces. It's all in Tales of Ravenloft.
So then Radanovich was a ghost and not a vampire?
I'm pretty sure of that. It's been a while, though.
And I assume the domain (and thus the house) collapsed after her death (assuming you're using DoD which says van Richten killed her as he died)?
I think it depends on the outcome of the adventure. I think in some it persists and VR is trapped there.
And as a side note, van Richten died in 750 (according to DoD in 2e at least) so that would make 25 years later right at 775.
Yup.
Has something been changed for 3e as to the time of his death or was the 25 years mentioned above something else altogether (I'm just curious here as I won't be playing using the 3e material anyway but it's still an interesting topic)?
No, it's the same, 775BC (barovian calendar.) What I meant by 2015 was real world (A.D.) time when we could expect a product detailing the ToUD. It's currently 757BC or so in the latest products. (I may be off by a couple years). And the RL timeline progresses 2 or 3 years per real year.
While I'm here, I'll just say that even if you don't use 3e rules, the Gazetteers are a wonderful series for any RL DM. Heavy on details, plot hooks, and descriptions. You can ignore or convert the few rules if you want.
I wasn't even aware that van Richten ever had any dealings with Azalin much less borrowed any zombies from him. ;)
Thanks for clearing up the little details as well guys. And I see where I was confused about the timeline. Before, you mentioned that it was currently 775 but that the Time of Unparalleled Darkness was still a while off (if it was 775 it should be right around the corner). But in this last post you said it was currently 757 (not 775). So I'm clear on that now, thanks. ;)
How many RL Gazetteers are out for 3e and are they all currently in print? If so I may have to give those a good look.
I've never read "Tales of Ravenloft" I'm afraid. I'll have to try and pick that one up.
It's a collection of short Ravenloft Stories. Some are very good (Bluebeard), others are just plain boring.
How many RL Gazetteers are out for 3e and are they all currently in print? If so I may have to give those a good look.
There's 5 Gazetteers and they are all in print. They detail all of the 20 continental Core Domains with their Darklords and important NPCs (most of them) fully stated.
(Just so you don't get further confused, VRGttSF wasn't written posthumously by the doctor. The Weathermay-Foxgrove Twins took over Van Richten's legacy and have "written" two guides since his disappearance (and editted one "unpublished manuscript.") (and compiled a sort of monster hunters handbook called Van Richten's Arsenal))
But, for me, one of the big problems with 3e in general is the tons and tons of books thrown at you. I think I've probably got all the details I'll need from 2e products. Especially considering I don't like many of the directions that 3e took Ravenloft. Removing Lord Soth and bringing back Azalin are two good examples.
In fact, if I could lay my hands on Bleak House I'd probably have everything I'll ever need. So back to the search!
Thanks for the information guys, I'll have to look some of those books up.
But, for me, one of the big problems with 3e in general is the tons and tons of books thrown at you. I think I've probably got all the details I'll need from 2e products. Especially considering I don't like many of the directions that 3e took Ravenloft. Removing Lord Soth and bringing back Azalin are two good examples.
In fact, if I could lay my hands on Bleak House I'd probably have everything I'll ever need. So back to the search!
Well, getting rid of Lord Soth was a legal matter, forced upon the designers by higher management in the old days of TSR, and it happened back in 2e, so 3e Ravenloft is hardly to blame for it. As for bringing back Azalin... he's just been one of Ravenloft biggest crowd-pleasers from day one. As a fan who has had issues with 3e Ravenloft myself, I still recommend you give the new products a chance. the Gazetteers are very good material, no matter which edition you use. So are the new Van Richten's Guides.
And yes, Radanavitch is a ghost. Before reading Bleak House, I had assumed she was a vampire too, probably based on a phrase in DoD about "the great vampire hunter" falling in the hands of the "evil Madame Radanavitch". Kinda gives out a mental picture of her being a vampire chick.
And it's not that the 3e products are bad material...it's that they're more than I need. I can't imagine wanting more details than I have now. I don't like having that many lands, places, or people described in great detail. That's just more stuff I have to own, keep track of, and look up. And it's less stuff I get to make up myself...which is what I enjoy the most. And that's the 3e problem I was talking about above. The need to detail everything they can find simply to put out another book you "need" to buy. I'd rather just make it up myself...but that doesn't mean I won't take a look at the 3e books just to grab an idea or two. But I doubt I'll spend my money on them.
As for Radanavitch, I think you're right actually. I went back and read the passage myself and I'm sure that's what gave me the impression she was a vampire. Funny how those things work.
I've read that Soth isn't even mentioned in 3e as ever being in Ravenloft. Of course, I don't have the material so I'm just going by what others have said in various places and I could be wrong. ;)
He isn't mentioned by name, which would violate some copyright or another, and is instead called "the Black Rose." So yes, he certainly was in Ravenloft, no matter what some people say.
I'm just more an original Ravenloft fan I guess. My favorite version is the revised 2e boxed set as it had all the history and fluff of the original but was also an expanded setting. I did really like the formatting of DoD though. In any case, I'm doing a conversion for another system altogether so I'm taking things from whatever source and putting it in my Ravenloft.