so. my question posed here is what folks' ideas concerning the powers and levels of everyone ought to be. Tithian a flatout lvl 17 templar, agis a psion 16, rikus and neeva similar and so forth? what about kalak?
When my player killed Kalak (and they were very lucky), they were average level 7-8.
One Elfe psionic/Thief/Preserver 7/8/7
A Gladiator Mul level 9 using the Hearthwood spear
A thri-kreen Water cleric level 9
A Half-elf ranger lvl 7
Of course, the hearthwood spear did all the job. Kalak was defenssless agaisnt the mUL and only hsi bodyguard (3 Rock golem) could arm the gladiator. And of course Kalak was struck pant down while transforming so... they got very lucky.
For futher detail, see the thread about my campain.
Its a one year campaign.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=223716
if you are playing 2nd ed Kalak is a 21 level dragon, otherwise darkhelm suggests the following
Kalak, the Tyrant of Tyr (Level 53)
Class/Levels: Psion (shaper) 11/Wizard (defiler) 13/Arch Defiler 10/Archmage 5/Advanced Being(Dragon) 14
Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Ogres), Sorcerer-Monarch
Notes: Some people prefer he does not have the "Champion of Rajaat" Template, which is possible.
Note, what ever edition you play Tithian must have some levels in psion(icist) to reflect his time in the academy as a youth, note that he struggled with his studies and dropped out in favour of a more easy (yet fraught with danger) progression as a Templar.
As for the "heroes," taking it straight from 2nd ed rules Tithian is Templar 17, Neeva is Gladiator 8, Agis is Psion 16, Sadira is Wizard 10 and Rikus is Gladiator 15. Should I ramp some of these up and make the average like 16 or 17 or what? Neeva and Sadira are the weaklings. One could say that when she became a sun wizard Sadir traded in some wizard levels for what amounted to levels in a prestige class. Anyway . . . yeah
To top this off, even with the Heartwood spear, the players did not kill Kalak, only slowed him down for a couple decades.
Originally posted by Cap'n Nick
Secondly, I don't think he'd have so many levels in dragon. I got swayed to the side that thought Kalak wasn't a dragon at all until he started sucking the life from the people of Tyr.
Wooo...I never thought that could be someone's main argument!
Of course Kalak sucks the life out of the city's populace, that's part of the ritual. In fact its the first act of defilement perpetrated on animal life that the defiler does when first starting to become a dragon.
When you're not yet a dragon but are in the act of casting the first spell, that's when you first "defile life". So that bit lets the door open for the possiblity that Kalak was not already a dragon when he used the ziggurat.
Originally posted by Pennarin
So that bit lets the door open for the possiblity that Kalak was not already a dragon when he used the ziggurat.
OK, well it has been quite a while since I read those books or played in Dark Sun, but I seem to recall that the Ziggurat was going to be used to complete the transformation that would make Kalak into the Dragon he wished to be.
But again, it has been a while...
The way the ritual involving the ziggurat as been penned says it allows, in one swoop, to become a 30th level dragon. It doesn't say you need to already be a dragon to take part in the ritual.
Where did you get your hands on the info regarding the original writers of DS and the interpretation of kalak being 25/25? if so, and if they are ok with it please please please please please post it here so we can see what they had envisaged with the whole dragon transformation process.
cheers
Jaanos
Originally posted by Pennarin
Yeah they let it vague, they never said at wall level of dragon, if any, Kalak started to use the ziggurat. Anyway the same people who designed the whole idea wrote Kalak as a straight defiler 25/psionicist 25 with no mention of dragonhood prior to that fateful day of the Games.
The way the ritual involving the ziggurat as been penned says it allows, in one swoop, to become a 30th level dragon. It doesn't say you need to already be a dragon to take part in the ritual.
I can't tell what you're saying Pennarin . . . I mean whether that was a jab at me for not knowing my stuff or jumping on the band-wagon with me. I know oodles about this stuff, and regarding Kalak I like the idea that he wasn't even a champion and that, in 2e terms, before his ziggurut stunt he was not even a dragon, maybe just a lvl 20/20 defiler/psion, and the ziggurut stunt not only turned him into a first-stage dragon but would have eventually finished the entire process for him. As for not what he seems, of course. I imagine he would have done all sorts of kooky things over the years to enhance himself and his power, stave off impending death (though his immortality woulda been different from champion- or dragon-hood . . . he didn't look like he'd been agin' so well) and just generally be a scary scary man.
In any case, I don't know why but I have a soft spot for good ol' Kalak and the idea of his return, bolstered by a Brom painting, sure does give me a little tickle inside.
Originally posted by Cap'n Nick
"City-State of Tyr" has a write-up for Kalak, wherein he's a level 25 dragon.
He's described as being a human male, not a dragon. The fluff lower down says he discovered ancients texts that showed a way to make a man into a dragon in one giant step. That's the ziggurat gig. To me that's evidence enough that he was not a dragon to begin with.
I can't tell what you're saying Pennarin . . . I mean whether that was a jab at me for not knowing my stuff or jumping on the band-wagon with me. I know oodles about this stuff, and regarding Kalak I like the idea that he wasn't even a champion and that, in 2e terms, before his ziggurut stunt he was not even a dragon, maybe just a lvl 20/20 defiler/psion, and the ziggurut stunt not only turned him into a first-stage dragon but would have eventually finished the entire process for him.
No jab was involved or been mistreated in the making of that post! Seriously, sorry if it lented itself to negative interpretation. What you're saying on Kalak in the above section is my thoughts exactly.
As for not what he seems, of course. I imagine he would have done all sorts of kooky things over the years to enhance himself and his power, stave off impending death (though his immortality woulda been different from champion- or dragon-hood . . . he didn't look like he'd been agin' so well) and just generally be a scary scary man.
I support Cap'n Nick on this. Being a dragon or Champion, by any existing rules (Xlor's, for example), does not increase your stats too much. So if you're super-strong or fast it comes from Ability Increases (those you get every few levels) or from Wish or Reality Revision, used many times over the centuries. You're super-strong because you have a +10 inherent bonus to your Strength scrore. For that you don't need to be a dragon or Champion. Plus Kalak is not wrought in glamours, he always appears to be a plain old man. Thus it suggests that his immortality is not of the dragon or Champion type, and that it is inferior in design (it may not even be immortality per say but just a succession of rejuvenation spells).
I have a fever, and man you should see the stuff i'm dreaming about right now. yay convulsions. I should see a doctor.
Your the only other person I found who likes, even prefers, that interpretation. Others keep looking, and finding, loopholes to have him be a dragon.
Others give him xlorepdarkhelm's Champion of Rajaat and Sorcerer-Monarch templates, but I don't. Although that is not cannon: it goes against the Timeline (cursed be its name).
In Abbey's books he's descibed as syphoning Sacha and Wyan's ability to grant spells to templars. Plus Abbey describes Champions as already having the dragon metamorphosis imposed on them at creation. Considering that, I can say he's not a Champion (although he does have the title) nor can he grant templar energy by himself. So he's really just an uber old man, just the way I like him. It makes it way cooler that he's managed to wipe out a whole race and keep hold of a city for millenias without being a dragon or Champion.
So, I've considered a version of Kalak who had the Sorcerer-Monarch template of mine (and could provide his Templars spells), he had recieved the equivalent of the 1st Stage metamorphosis from Borys when he used the Dark Lens, just never got around to advancing and developing along the process like the others.
Kalak I see as this guy who already was immortal, a uber defiler, whom Rajaat asked to eradicate a race. He did it in good time and earned for himself Tyr as a reward. After Rajaat's betrayal, he got his hands god knows how or when on the two floating heads and perverted them to believe he was the source of Dark Lens magic (i.e. templar magic) and not they. He should be I believe an even more powerful defiler than his 2E stats, bringing down somewhat his psion levels: wizard 30/psion 20.
In 2E rules it wasn't possible to advance past 20th level as a wizard without being an advanced being.
Originally posted by Pennarin
Considering that, I can say he's not a Champion (although he does have the title) nor can he grant templar energy by himself.
I thought that the Champions where just the people that Rajaat tasked with wiping out a race, which, based on the Timeline, he does achieve. Or is that what you mean when you say he has the title?
was just catching a little bit on the boards (the one entitled Kalak's Defeat if I remember correctly) talking about the possibility of Kalak not being a dragon at all. Well, I thought to look in the Prism Pentad to find the little bit where the halflings describe him as one (thus proving this little idea wrong). Yet, to my surprise it states quite the opposite. Its on page 280 of said book, and it says -
"Kalak is the Dragon?" she gasped.
"No. There are many dragons throughout the world," the halfling said. "Kalak is not yet one of them."
My response was to the effect that maybe Nok (and the rest of Athas) only considered a full-blown 10th stage dragon as a dragon; up until then, you're just turning into one. It makes a bit of sense, but then that statement opens a whole other can: it suggests that there are other dragons out there of Borys's stature (or maybe more powerful?).
it suggests that there are other dragons out there of Borys's stature
Or it affirms that Kalak was never a dragon in the first place. Either one.
Originally posted by Skole
that he was already a 21st level dragon, and was trying to jump from 21 to 30 under 2E rules. The way I see it in games mechanics is that he had acquired all the xp he needed to be 30th level but had never cast the Dragon metamorphosis spells to gain those levels. Why not? Because look what the other Sorceror Monarchs did to Dregoth as soon as he grew close. Much safer to go straight from 21st to 30th in one fell swoop. They can mess with you AFTER you become a full dragon.
Where did you read that? I don't recall any of it. Please do find the reference and point to the book and page.
Originally posted by Skole
In 2E rules it wasn't possible to advance past 20th level as a wizard without being an advanced being.
It somewhat changed at one time, dunno when though: undead NPCs in DSMCII were defilers of 20+ levels.
Originally posted by az_zel
I thought that the Champions where just the people that Rajaat tasked with wiping out a race, which, based on the Timeline, he does achieve. Or is that what you mean when you say he has the title?
Yes, I believe that at least, and probably only, one of Rajaat's Champions did not have the Champion of Rajaat template (which in Abbey's book confers dragonhood and templar magic; but the Timeline says both come from right after the Champions' rebellious battle against their master). Kalak is a very powerful sorcerer and mindbender that Rajaat used to achieve his ends. He was a Champion in title, not in flesh.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
But dragon isn't stated as "dragon:" it's "Dragon." That "D" makes a big difference, in my opinion. Besides, Wanderer's Chronicle backs up the fact that Kalak was a Champion. I'd say if you want it, in your campaign, that Kalak was not a dragon or champ, that's totally cool (I might even go this route when I move to CO and get new players), but, officially, Kalak's a dragon (but not the Dragon).
I don't see the problem here Dawn. The fact that all of Rajaat's Champions are also dragons has been rehashed endlessly on the Boards, but I personnaly don't remember if it's actually said so anywhere (it might just be the general knowledge that the SKs are dragons and that the SKs were Rajaat's former Champions).
Kalak doesn't need to be a dragon, especially regarding the above post by SQUIDFUR. I think its splitting hairs to interpret the above PP reference on the plurality of dragons as meaning there are many Borys-class dragons out there. It just means that there is more than one dragon in the world besides the only dragon that everyone knows about, being Borys, which they know simply as the Dragon (the word starting with a capitol letter demonstrates that its seen by the populace as more of a proper noun than a common noun; the people do not think he his the dragon because they know him to be the greatest amongst its peers, but they call him so because they know him to be unique; Nok shatters that certainty in Sadira, and Denning shows us the inflections that Nok employs when he says that, thus the use of capitol and non-capitol starting letters to give new meaning to the words).
I think, as you said, the topic has been drilled over and over. Basically, if you look at all the material in print from TSR (books too), you have a 50-50 split as to whether or not he was a dragon.
Wise words. So choose for yourself what you believe, and if athas.org ever does choose between two probables, know that the choice could equally have gone the other way.
Now on that note is one (city state of tyr or dragon kings) typically considered cannon, as they disagree on Kalak by four levels (and potentially whether or not he is a dragon)?
All of the sorcerer-kings of the Seven Cities are at least 21st-level dragons.
Although I don't remember conflicting sources on Kalak's levels. I think he's only stated in City-State of Tyr.
Another one of the many DS inconsistencies, akin to halflings being incapable of using arcane magic in PP5 and yet using it in PP1. That was because halflings in 2E could be illusionists and then later Denning decided that it would go better for the story to make them incapable of using arane magic at all. That inconsistency is solved in 3E, with careful addition of fluff in the halfing's racial description.
Kalak's dragonhood won't be so easily solved though. May never be.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Or it affirms that Kalak was never a dragon in the first place.
Works for me.
:D
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
But dragon isn't stated as "dragon:" it's "Dragon." That "D" makes a big difference, in my opinion.
Splitting hairs. Just like the whole Champion and champion thing in PAoA. Captilizing a word isn't enough of an argument for me, heh.
I just love the fact that my wee little brain thought about this, then I decided to write an article about it, and since then it's been respawning as a topic on these boards every few months.
Tis a beautiful thing!
Especially when more and more evidence, from official sources, is starting to make it seem that I just might be right. :D
If Denning is at GenCon this year, be prepared for another article, if not a small interview if I can swing it.
I think the problem is that the Prism Pentad, and the Verdant Passage in specific, were written in 1992 or before. I'm sure the world was not fleshed out at this point - it was just a series of ideas that kind of pulled together as a whole. It was not until Dragon Kings was released that Dark Sun started to hit its stride. Dragon Kings was the first book that really tried to answer the questions raised in the novels. Of course, conflicting information in later books means it will always be your word against mine.
In short, there is no resolution to this argument. Kalak either was a dragon or he wasn't. As I say at the end of nearly every statement I make like this: Use what works in your campaign. You and I can never "prove" our side of the argument because canon backs up both sides. Go fig: Athas was kind of a disjointed world and a lot of us were left in the wake when TSR collapsed.
Prolly right - my heart isn't in this argument, anymore. In my opinion, novels are just fluff and the information within should always be taken with a [large] grain of salt. Even so, the DS world was written by the same guy who wrote the novels, so go fig. Basically, Dragon Kings states that all the SKs were dragons, so that would make Kalak a dragon by default.
I couldn't agree with this more.
Look at the Drizzt books in the FR. How many incarnations for Drizzt's stats has their been over the years? He went from being a ranger, to a fighter, to a ranger/fighter, to a ranger/fighter with 1 level barbarian and I wouldn't be suprised if he had some rogue levels in there by now. Same can be said of Elminster as well. All these changes were from books later pulished to explain these characters' past histories which were written after the fact.
Thats how I view the whole Kalak debate. He was written one way at first and then another way in a later source that is considered canon.
Game terms: In game terms, Kalak tried to go from 21-st level to 30-th level dragon all at once
Like I said doesn't really matter, it's all about how the DM wants it for his game, but that was the information I was referring to.