1. The city of Teyr is described as being a dwarven city that originated 200 years prior to the first Cataclysm, a satellite community of Thoradin.
Problem: Pre-cataclysm maps indicate that the area where Teyr would be located is in the middle of the sea, with the nearest shore being dozens of miles away.
Possible Solution(s):
a. Teyr was built on an unmapped island.
b. Teyr was built in a submerged mountain beneath the sea, with tunnels leading to Thoradin, or at least to the mainland.
c. Teyr was an underwater city inhabited by aquatic dwarves. Hehe.
2. The settlement of Robann is featured in the novel, Middle of Nowhere.
Problem: The novel indicates that east of Robann is nothing but desert or barrens, yet when looking at the DLCS map, we see that the Great Moors, a massive swamp lies east of Robann.
Possible Solution(s):
a. The novel and the DLCS are discussing two identically-named but otherwise totally different towns.
b. The author didn’t do his homework on DL geography, and the Robann in his novel is actually the same Robann in the DLCS.
3. The Khur town of Pashin featured in Key of Destiny is described as originating as a pre-cataclysm outpost of Istar.
Problem: Consulting pre-cataclysm maps, we find that if the above statement were true, then this Istaran outpost would be located within the northern woods of the forest of Silvanesti (the woods extended further north in pre-cataclysm times). This just doesn’t seem right … would xenophobic Silvanesti elves really allow a human outpost in the middle of their forest? Not likely. It also doesn’t seem likely that Istar could have forcibly built the outpost in the Silvanesti forest, as the last time Istar fought Silvanesti in armed conflict, it lost.
Possible Solution(s):
a. Pashin was actually a Silvanesti outpost leased to Istaran forces …
b. The authors didn’t do their homework on Krynnish geography and we are now faced with a conundrum.
c. Leave everything as it is, merely move the town further north, so that at the very least it does not reside in the Silvanesti forest, adjust travel times in KoD accordingly.
d. Pashin was actually a Silvanesti settlement that was later abandoned in the chaotic times following the Cataclysm, with the uneducated humans that arrived in the town's vicinity mistakenly believing the half-ruined settlement was Istaran in origin because of the plethora of Istaran outposts located in the general vicinity of Pashin.
Originally posted by Hatrel
One thing that you must remember about any Pre-/Post-Cataclysm comparisons is that people may remember a city in that general vicinity, so named a new city that same name. It happens.
I've already covered that eventuality.
Originally posted by iltharanos
I’m a stickler for geographical consistency. It's one of those things that lend a sense of realism to a shared fictional world. Here I've compiled a small list of “things that bother me” about Krynnish geography. Here are all the interesting little geographical anomalies of Krynn, in no particular order. My examples should make it fairly clear what I mean by anomalies. If anyone knows of any other “anomalies”, please post them here!
1. The city of Teyr is described as being a dwarven city that originated 200 years prior to the first Cataclysm, a satellite community of Thoradin.
Problem: Pre-cataclysm maps indicate that the area where Teyr would be located is in the middle of the sea, with the nearest shore being dozens of miles away.
Possible Solution(s):
a. Teyr was built on an unmapped island.
b. Teyr was built in a submerged mountain beneath the sea, with tunnels leading to Thoradin, or at least to the mainland.
c. Teyr was an underwater city inhabited by aquatic dwarves. Hehe.
All righty let's see here... I've got the DL Atlas open to the page were the Pre and Post maps overlap each other. (I'm not sure if you have the same thing.) Looking at this map I can see where Teyr was Pre-Cataclsym. It would be on/near the shores of the inland sea/bay (that was eventually replaced by Nordmaar). It fit's just fine and the Astivar Mountains would have risen just to the north west of them.
[/b]
2. The settlement of Robann is featured in the novel, Middle of Nowhere.
Problem: The novel indicates that east of Robann is nothing but desert or barrens, yet when looking at the DLCS map, we see that the Great Moors, a massive swamp lies east of Robann.
Possible Solution(s):
a. The novel and the DLCS are discussing two identically-named but otherwise totally different towns.
b. The author didn’t do his homework on DL geography, and the Robann in his novel is actually the same Robann in the DLCS.
[/b]
Well... that description was created before the DLCS or the map for the DLCS was created. So in this case I would say the map was incorrect. Even then to me (personally) I don't think of the Great Moors as the same thing as Sable's swamp near the new sea. More sparse, more desolate than that swamp by far. Yeah the map doesn't mesh perfectly according to the novel. *shrug*
[/b]
3. The Khur town of Pashin featured in Key of Destiny is described as originating as a pre-cataclysm outpost of Istar.
Problem: Consulting pre-cataclysm maps, we find that if the above statement were true, then this Istaran outpost would be located within the northern woods of the forest of Silvanesti (the woods extended further north in pre-cataclysm times). This just doesn’t seem right … would xenophobic Silvanesti elves really allow a human outpost in the middle of their forest? Not likely. It also doesn’t seem likely that Istar could have forcibly built the outpost in the Silvanesti forest, as the last time Istar fought Silvanesti in armed conflict, it lost.
Possible Solution(s):
a. Pashin was actually a Silvanesti outpost leased to Istaran forces …
b. The authors didn’t do their homework on Krynnish geography and we are now faced with a conundrum.
c. Leave everything as it is, merely move the town further north, so that at the very least it does not reside in the Silvanesti forest, adjust travel times in KoD accordingly.
d. Pashin was actually a Silvanesti settlement that was later abandoned in the chaotic times following the Cataclysm, with the uneducated humans that arrived in the town's vicinity mistakenly believing the half-ruined settlement was Istaran in origin because of the plethora of Istaran outposts located in the general vicinity of Pashin. [/b]
I'd go with something like "a" on this one. :D
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
All righty let's see here... I've got the DL Atlas open to the page were the Pre and Post maps overlap each other. (I'm not sure if you have the same thing.) Looking at this map I can see where Teyr was Pre-Cataclsym. It would be on/near the shores of the inland sea/bay (that was eventually replaced by Nordmaar). It fit's just fine and the Astivar Mountains would have risen just to the north west of them.
We're talking about Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Krynn, right?
Check page xiii of the Atlas. The Astivar mountains rise right out of the sea, and Teyr is east of those mountains. Using the scale provided in the Atlas we find Teyr is 25 to 30 miles offshore in pre-cataclysm times. That's a hell of a long swim!
Aquatic dwarves are looking more and more likely. ;)
Originally posted by iltharanos
We're talking about Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Krynn, right?Yup, That's it.
Check page xiii of the Atlas. The Astivar mountains rise right out of the sea, and Teyr is east of those mountains. Using the scale provided in the Atlas we find Teyr is 25 to 30 miles offshore in pre-cataclysm times. That's a hell of a long swim!
Aquatic dwarves are looking more and more likely. ;)
LOL, as much as I do like the aquatic Dwarves theory... heh.
Actually only half of the Astivar Mountains rise up out of the ocean. The southern half is still on land. But your absolutley right that the placement of Teyr on both the DLCS and the 4th Age map would apparently put it in the water...I was thinking it was more to the south.
So you got me on that one.
Originally posted by jonesy
Of course the Cataclysm could have (in addition to raising and lowering) moved some land masses to new locations. Maybe the area Teyr was in moved ~30 miles towards the former sea in addition to the rise of the mountain range.
That is a distinct possibility. AFAIK there have been no recorded instances of this lateral movement ... but that doesn't necessarily mean it didn't occur somewhere on Ansalon.
Using the Atlas, it still bugs me a bit as to the location of Teyr pre-cataclysm. Assuming it was on the nearest bit of land and that land just shifted eastward after the Cataclysm ... there's still the fact that there were no mountains anywhere near the area until after the Cataclysm. The only reason that fact bugs me is because all other known dwarven cities/regions have always been built in mountainous terrain, such as Thorbardin, Kaolyn, and Thoradin.
The War of the Lance will hopefully be a first step to exploring Krynn. Gaffs will continue, given the massive geographical changes that Krynn has undergone, and the fact that nations are going to have to be created whole-cloth.
Questions are going to arise like "How does this city support itself?" , "Who do they trade with?" and "When exactly was this city founded?".
Some things won't make much sense, but will require a solution for the next time.
1) Teyr: Well the simplest solution would be to take a pre-cataclysm map and push the land out a little farther. Otherwise, we might want to push it closer to the Taman Basuk region. Another solution might be to make it a post-cataclysm settlement that did not succeed.
2) Istarian Outpost: This might not be Istarian at all. After all, did Istar go all the way to Silvanesti's Borders? I know they had an empire of the lands now under the Blood Sea, much of the Taman Basuk, and some desert kingdoms in Balifor... but the whole eastern half of the continent? Granted, it is a small continent, and Ergoth has been described as controlling the lands as far away as Sanction. Silvanesti in Tonya Cook's and Paul B. Thompson's book had the Silvanesti expanding into the Plains of Dust. Qualinesti used to be double its current size.
Anyway, I don't think you can count the forest's border as a definative line, but rather an area in which the foliage gets gradually thicker. Even then, given the Silvanesti attitude towards mastering nature and their tendency to shape and prune every leaf and branch, they might not consider their entire forest their kingdom. After all, we do have a definative border in their wall of greenery and animated plants known only as "the Hedge". Did the hedge extend farther in the past, or has it always been its current dimensions? After all, we also have the Balifor forest to the west which was south of the desert kingdoms, and was also outside of Silvanesti. Mayhaps there was forest land to the North that Silvanesti did not claim.
3) I think the problem with Robann is quite a minor thing and easily ignored. I'm more worried about what exactly the culture of Nordmaar is with names like "Wulfgar" and "Valkinord". See that is the problem with not describing cultures and doing the map first. You just stick down random stuff without really considering the implications of it.
Take Solamnia in the DLCS for instance. There is a road between Vingaard Keep and Palanthas, but none to Solanthus. Does that mean the river is the only connection? If so, then why isn't there a place to unload goods closer to Solanthus, or another road linking Solanthus to that river? Fangoth in Lemish allows for contact with the Vingaard River with the Newsea, but the interior of Solamnia seems completely isolated.
That's an example of "we needs some roads here" but not thinking to the next step of "what are these roads for". One should have a vivid picture of the region already in mind before one draws the map. With a fantasy world, that's very hard to do. It took Forgotten Realms 20 years to get a map that made sense and was completely thought out, so I don't expect a perfect map any time soon, when we are first starting to explore Krynn.
Originally posted by iltharanos
The only reason that fact bugs me is because all other known dwarven cities/regions have always been built in mountainous terrain, such as Thorbardin, Kaolyn, and Thoradin.
Well, I think that is just because we haven't looked at the Hill Dwarven Kingdoms yet. I'd like to see more on the Hill Dwarven nation of Hillow for instance. Plus, I imagine there are lots of places inside human nations for Hill Dwarven villages and cities as well.
Unfortunately though, Teyr's description makes it quite obvious that it was originally built into the side of a mountain. Besides, lateral movement is possible for earth, but buildings and subterranian passages wouldn't survive the trip except through magic.
Originally posted by ferratus
1) Teyr: Well the simplest solution would be to take a pre-cataclysm map and push the land out a little farther. Otherwise, we might want to push it closer to the Taman Basuk region. Another solution might be to make it a post-cataclysm settlement that did not succeed.
Some retconning with the pre-Cataclysm map sounds in order ...
2) Istarian Outpost: This might not be Istarian at all.
Except for the fact that it's specifically called Istarian in the Key of Destiny's description of Pashin. This may not be too difficult to retcon, as I don't think Pashin's past as an Istarian outpost is crucial to the adventure (though I'm not 100% certain, since I haven't read through the whole adventure yet).
After all, did Istar go all the way to Silvanesti's Borders?
Yep, it sure did.
Anyway, I don't think you can count the forest's border as a definative line, but rather an area in which the foliage gets gradually thicker. Even then, given the Silvanesti attitude towards mastering nature and their tendency to shape and prune every leaf and branch, they might not consider their entire forest their kingdom. After all, we do have a definative border in their wall of greenery and animated plants known only as "the Hedge". Did the hedge extend farther in the past, or has it always been its current dimensions?
Not sure about the pre-Cat. status of the Hedge ... but, going on the political boundaries indicated in the Atlas of pre-Cat. Silvanesti, the site of Pashin is located 100 miles from the nearest spot of Istarian land. The Silvanesti of pre-Cat. times have always been remarkably territorial and aggressive (for elves), it's highly unlikely that they would tolerate the presence of a human outpost in the very borders of the Silvanesti forest ... let alone 100 miles from established national boundaries. If we were talking about the Qualinesti, it would make much more sense given the Qualinesti habit of mixing with non-elves ... but for the xenophobic Silvanesti to allow humans so far into elven territory just doesn't look right.
After all, we also have the Balifor forest to the west which was south of the desert kingdoms, and was also outside of Silvanesti. Mayhaps there was forest land to the North that Silvanesti did not claim.
Well, the Balifor forest was east of Silvanesti and was not contiguous with the Silvanesti forest, so the fact that Silvanesti did not control it isn't too surprising. In contrast, the forest land in which pre-cat. Pashin is located is forest that is contiguous with the forest that surrounds Silvanost.
3) I think the problem with Robann is quite a minor thing and easily ignored. I'm more worried about what exactly the culture of Nordmaar is with names like "Wulfgar" and "Valkinord". See that is the problem with not describing cultures and doing the map first. You just stick down random stuff without really considering the implications of it.
I totally agree, the problem with Robann is a minor one. If it was an isolated problem, then it wouldn't even bear mentioning. Unfortunately, there are quite a few of these minor problems in Ansalon's geography ... and my worry is that these little problems will start stacking up to the point where geographical maps of Ansalon will become pointless because no two sources can agree to where anything is located. We aren't at that level, and hopefully by paying more attention to geography we will never get there.
It took Forgotten Realms 20 years to get a map that made sense and was completely thought out, so I don't expect a perfect map any time soon, when we are first starting to explore Krynn.
Um, isn't Dragonlance already 20 years old? It's not as if Dragonlance is a yearling babe fresh from the creative womb, it's been around for a long time, certainly long enough to have one small continent (Ansalon) thoroughly mapped out, pre- and post-Cataclysm. The geographical "anomalies" listed above could quite easily have been avoided through a simple process:
1. How old is my ?
a. If answer = younger than Cataclysm, then consult post-Cataclysm map of Ansalon.
b. If answer = older than Cataclysm, then consult both pre- and post-Cataclysm maps of Ansalon.
... and there we go. That should take all of 5 minutes to help insure some geographical continuity.
In all honesty, I think we're nitpicking here. I'd rather have DL writers writing new sourcebooks and adventures - not becoming geographers/cartographers. Just make adjustments when you find an inconsistency. It's really no big deal.
Originally posted by iltharanos
Some retconning with the pre-Cataclysm map sounds in order ...
Except for the fact that it's specifically called Istarian in the Key of Destiny's description of Pashin. This may not be too difficult to retcon, as I don't think Pashin's past as an Istarian outpost is crucial to the adventure (though I'm not 100% certain, since I haven't read through the whole adventure yet).
Yep, it sure did.
Not sure about the pre-Cat. status of the Hedge ... but, going on the political boundaries indicated in the Atlas of pre-Cat. Silvanesti, the site of Pashin is located 100 miles from the nearest spot of Istarian land. The Silvanesti of pre-Cat. times have always been remarkably territorial and aggressive (for elves),
it's highly unlikely that they would tolerate the presence of a human outpost in the very borders of the Silvanesti forest ... let alone 100 miles from established national boundaries.
Actually, Sithel built the city of Sithelnost for the express purpose of trading with other nations, to keep them out of the holy mother city of Silvanost. That was well inside their borders, just across the lake from said mother city.
If I was to guess, I would say it would become pretty much useless as a trading hub once Istar seized control of the entire eastern continent, making Istar and the Dimernesti their only trading partners. After all, there is no need to congregate if the Istarian merchant houses have trade pretty much wrapped up. The logical thing to do would turn the warehouses into storehouses and begin trading with the Istarian in Istar's cities, using the legendary elven ships.
geographical maps of Ansalon will become pointless because no two sources can agree to where anything is located. We aren't at that level, and hopefully by paying more attention to geography we will never get there.
Yep, which is why you have to approach the geography chapter with the intent of beleiving that it is a real place, and what it would be like to live there.
Um, isn't Dragonlance already 20 years old? It's not as if Dragonlance is a yearling babe fresh from the creative womb, it's been around for a long time, certainly long enough to have one small continent (Ansalon) thoroughly mapped out, pre- and post-Cataclysm.
Well, you may have noticed quite a lot of bitterness from long-time fans who have stayed, and the generally repeated complaints have been:
1) The book line refuses to stop beating the dead horse that is the Heroes of the Lance.
2) The lack of any setting detail makes playing in the world difficult, if not impossible.
But, I once again am hoping the second is about to change, and am ecstatic that the first already has.
The geographical "anomalies" listed above could quite easily have been avoided through a simple process:
I'm not sure if that is entirely fair, given that previous maps and geography had no real borders, no real cultural distinctions, and no real trade routes to speak of. When you are continually grasping at snippets of information at a myriad of sources you are bound to miss a few, interpret it differently than intended, or just ignore it. Indeed, you might get so used to not finding the information that you just make it up first without going through it exhaustively.
Originally posted by iltharanos
it's highly unlikely that they would tolerate the presence of a human outpost in the very borders of the Silvanesti forest ... let alone 100 miles from established national boundaries.
Actually, Sithel built the city of Sithelnost for the express purpose of trading with other nations, to keep them out of the holy mother city of Silvanost. That was well inside their borders, just across the lake from said mother city.
If I was to guess, I would say it would become pretty much useless as a trading hub once Istar seized control of the entire eastern continent, making Istar and the Dimernesti their only trading partners. After all, there is no need to congregate if the Istarian merchant houses have trade pretty much wrapped up. The logical thing to do would turn the warehouses into storehouses and begin trading with the Istarian in Istar's cities, using the legendary elven ships.
geographical maps of Ansalon will become pointless because no two sources can agree to where anything is located. We aren't at that level, and hopefully by paying more attention to geography we will never get there.
Yep, which is why you have to approach the geography chapter with the intent of beleiving that it is a real place, and what it would be like to live there.
Um, isn't Dragonlance already 20 years old? It's not as if Dragonlance is a yearling babe fresh from the creative womb, it's been around for a long time, certainly long enough to have one small continent (Ansalon) thoroughly mapped out, pre- and post-Cataclysm.
Well, you may have noticed quite a lot of bitterness from long-time fans who have stayed, and the generally repeated complaints have been:
1) The book line refuses to stop beating the dead horse that is the Heroes of the Lance.
2) The lack of any setting detail makes playing in the world difficult, if not impossible.
But, I once again am hoping the second is about to change, and am ecstatic that the first already has.
The geographical "anomalies" listed above could quite easily have been avoided through a simple process:
I'm not sure if that is entirely fair, given that previous maps and geography had no real borders, no real cultural distinctions, and no real trade routes to speak of. When you are continually grasping at snippets of information at a myriad of sources you are bound to miss a few, interpret it differently than intended, or just ignore it. Indeed, you might get so used to not finding the information that you just make it up first without going through it exhaustively.
Originally posted by ferratus
Actually, Sithel built the city of Sithelnost for the express purpose of trading with other nations, to keep them out of the holy mother city of Silvanost. That was well inside their borders, just across the lake from said mother city.
Well, first off, what lake? There is no lake anywhere near Silvanost. Silvanost may be on an island, but it's an island created by the splitting of the Thon-Thalas river. Also, Sithelnost isn't exactly near Silvanost, it's over 60 miles away to the northwest of said capital.
Couple of important distinctions that make Sithelnost entirely different from Pashin the Istarian outpost. Sithelnost was built and controlled entirely by the Silvanesti. This would hardly be objectionable to them, as it is their city. Pashin on the other hand was built and presumably manned by the humans of Istar ... in Silvanesti land, which makes no sense.
If I was to guess, I would say it would become pretty much useless as a trading hub once Istar seized control of the entire eastern continent, making Istar and the Dimernesti their only trading partners.
Istar did not even control all of eastern Ansalon. Heck, they didn't even control Balifor or Thoradin. The last time Istar tried to conquer Balifor it failed, and never tried again.
After all, there is no need to congregate if the Istarian merchant houses have trade pretty much wrapped up. The logical thing to do would turn the warehouses into storehouses and begin trading with the Istarian in Istar's cities, using the legendary elven ships.
I wouldn't say the Istarians had trade wrapped up to the point that the Silvanesti couldn't trade with anyone but the Istarians.
Ergoth was still entirely independent of Istar all the way up to the Cataclysm, and there's quite clearly an obvious sea route between the two nations.
I'm not sure if that is entirely fair, given that previous maps and geography had no real borders, no real cultural distinctions, and no real trade routes to speak of. When you are continually grasping at snippets of information at a myriad of sources you are bound to miss a few, interpret it differently than intended, or just ignore it. Indeed, you might get so used to not finding the information that you just make it up first without going through it exhaustively.
Previous maps did indeed have definitive borders, though they did lack cultural info. and trade routes. As for having to make something up because you don't desire to plow through a myriad of sources ... that's why you only need look at the Dragonlance Atlas, which was published in 1987. Pages xii through xvii of that Atlas have all the maps anyone writing in Dragonlance could possible need to avoid creating geographical snaffoos.
Oh, and Wayreth Forest. I keep looking at different maps, and people put it in different places! Why can't these 'cartographers' make up their minds? Too many of them are kender, I bet. It's a wonder these Ansalonian maps aren't covered in notes saying 'pretty tree' or 'rock with sword stuck in' and so on.
Originally posted by pddisc
Oh, and Wayreth Forest. I keep looking at different maps, and people put it in different places! Why can't these 'cartographers' make up their minds? Too many of them are kender, I bet. It's a wonder these Ansalonian maps aren't covered in notes saying 'pretty tree' or 'rock with sword stuck in' and so on.
But Wayreth moves. It doesn't have an accurate location. The most accurate way to place it on a map would be not to do it at all.
Originally posted by iltharanos
Well, first off, what lake? There is no lake anywhere near Silvanost. Silvanost may be on an island, but it's an island created by the splitting of the Thon-Thalas river. Also, Sithelnost isn't exactly near Silvanost, it's over 60 miles away to the northwest of said capital.
Well, that's what I get for just relying on my hazing memory of reading the elven nations trilogy. ;)
Couple of important distinctions that make Sithelnost entirely different from Pashin the Istarian outpost. Sithelnost was built and controlled entirely by the Silvanesti. This would hardly be objectionable to them, as it is their city. Pashin on the other hand was built and presumably manned by the humans of Istar ... in Silvanesti land, which makes no sense.
Granted, but I think you're overstating the case that Silvanesti was completely xenophobic throughout its history. It seems to have been fairly close to Istar before the hammer fell, and Sithelnost is an example that non-elves were allowed inside the kingdom, deep inside the kingdom even.
The xenophobia of the Silvanesti had grown over the centuries, but the Cataclysm was the event that made them shut the gates.
Istar did not even control all of eastern Ansalon. Heck, they didn't even control Balifor or Thoradin. The last time Istar tried to conquer Balifor it failed, and never tried again.
Well, we know that if Istar's empire extended to the borders of Silvanesti Forest, then they controlled all of Khur. That surprised me because I would have assumed that Khur was pre-cataclysmic.
Anyway, so they control Khur, Nereka, Karthay, Saifum, and Kern. Nordmarr hadn't risen from the ocean yet, and the goodland penninsula were deserts that Istar had control over as well.
That leaves only Mithas, Kothas, Balifor and Silvanesti for everything East of Estwilde. That is pretty much control of the eastern half of the continent.
I wouldn't say the Istarians had trade wrapped up to the point that the Silvanesti couldn't trade with anyone but the Istarians.
The only rivals for close trading partners would have been the kender, the Minotaurs, the Ogres of Blode and the Plainsmen. So really, only the plainsmen. ;)
Ergoth was still entirely independent of Istar all the way up to the Cataclysm, and there's quite clearly an obvious sea route between the two nations.
There is only so much trade you can do with markets that far away. Besides, that still means it is easier to bring your markets to them than for them to bring it to you unless you assume that Silvanesti is importing large amounts of raw materials.
Previous maps did indeed have definitive borders, though they did lack cultural info. and trade routes.
The only definative borders we had of what territories the dragonarmy wings controlled. We didn't know what nation-states they had overrun, or where Solamnia ended and Estwilde began.
As for having to make something up because you don't desire to plow through a myriad of sources ... that's why you only need look at the Dragonlance Atlas, which was published in 1987.
The Dragonlance Atlas was good for describing where the HotL specifically went, but not as a gazateer of the world as a whole. Though you are correct in that it did have the physical maps of both precataclysm Krynn and post-cataclysm Krynn. They even have the one map overlaying the other so you can see the difference.
Originally posted by ferratus
Granted, but I think you're overstating the case that Silvanesti was completely xenophobic throughout its history. It seems to have been fairly close to Istar before the hammer fell, and Sithelnost is an example that non-elves were allowed inside the kingdom, deep inside the kingdom even.
The xenophobia of the Silvanesti had grown over the centuries, but the Cataclysm was the event that made them shut the gates.
Well, we do have to take into account that Sithelnost, if it was built by Sithel, was built over 2,000 years before the Cataclysm. The following entries from the Iconochronos all have lead me to believe that Silvanesti was extremely xenophobic during the last few centuries before the Cataclysm (or the height of Istar's power) to the point that it no longer allowed non-elves into it's borders.
673-630 PC: Istar and Silvanesti clash due to Istar expansion threatening Silvanesti naval merchants. Silvanesti blockades Istar, forcing Istar to sign the Swordsheath Scroll.
280 PC: Silvanesti grows antagonistic toward Istar.
250-100 PC: The elves, disgusted at human arrogance, withdraw into their forests.
Well, we know that if Istar's empire extended to the borders of Silvanesti Forest, then they controlled all of Khur. That surprised me because I would have assumed that Khur was pre-cataclysmic.
That's the thing, Istar's border did not extend all the way to the Silvanesti forest. The pre-cataclysm nation of Silvanesti extended well beyond the borders of its forest. Silvanesti's pre-Cataclysm border with Istar was 100 miles away from the closest portion of the forest of Silvanesti.
The only rivals for close trading partners would have been the kender, the Minotaurs, the Ogres of Blode and the Plainsmen. So really, only the plainsmen. ;)
The only reason I disagree with the statement of Istar controlling all of eastern Ansalon is because Silvanesti is in eastern Ansalon ... and I don't think Istar had any sort of control over the elder elven nation.
The minotaurs were actually under the Istarian heel ... so they wouldn't have been any sort of rival at all. Solamnia did technically border western Silvanesti ... though of course Solamnia was effectively part of Istar by the last few centuries before the Cataclysm.There is only so much trade you can do with markets that far away. Besides, that still means it is easier to bring your markets to them than for them to bring it to you unless you assume that Silvanesti is importing large amounts of raw materials.
Silvanost is only about 800+ miles away from Daltigoth and we do know that Silvanesti has a powerful fleet, one powerful enough to hand the Istarian's their own butts in previous engagements (presumably it had a powerful merchant fleet as well). It only makes sense that as Silvanesti begins to withdraw from dealing with the world that it's goods would be in more demand (e.g. fine elven wine, elven crystal, etc). Since non-elves would no longer be welcome in Silvanesti, Silvanesti's source of trade would be relegated to its navy. Although antagonistic towards Istar, there's no indication that Silvanesti would be averse to trade with other human nations (Kharolis, Ergoth).
Originally posted by pddisc
Just adding the Sanction-lava-into-sea thing. Also, it's story of being founded by a lost Kingpriest doesn't work if you take into account it's on the New Sea. And a harbour with boiling water and lava flowing around also doesn't strike me as a particularly safe one.
Yeah, I'm a little bugged by that as well. Although there is mention in one of the Bertrem novels that if the lava flow is unchecked that Sanction harbor will be entirely closed off by the lava flows in 100 years. 100 years? The only way that'd make sense is if Sanction harbor is extremely deep, perhaps in the order of miles deep. Another possibility is if the lava flow isn't continuous ... though from the novels I've read, it seems as though Sanction has had lava flowing into it's harbor at a continuous rate since at least the time of the War of the Lance.