But what about Psionics. How does it work? Is it simply there without an explenation? Is there an oficial answer to this question and what are peoples homebrewed explenations?
My therey :
This first part is based off my views of the real world;
The Mind views reality according to it's percepion of what rality is. Perception and relaity are effectivley the one and the same. If somebody beleives something to be real, then it is effectivley real for the purpose of that persons reality. The mind can convince it's self that the body is cold, warm, painfull or painless. In the right state of mind, you can convince yourself that something that is not logically possible is real.
Now for the Other part;
If a mind creates it's own reality, what is there to stop a strong enough mind's reatity from meshing its self into and conjoining with the realitys of others?
This is, personally, the best explanation that I have come up with yet, although I havent explained it that well.
Originally posted by The People
But what about Psionics. How does it work? Is it simply there without an explenation? Is there an oficial answer to this question and what are peoples homebrewed explenations?
Well, the proliferation of Psionics can be most likely traced back to the Githyanki (or was it 'zeri?) Bomb that caused the development of the Athasian Giths. It also is pretty much why Psionics appeared. I've always figured that Magic came from an external source, while Psionics came from an internal source. Psionic energy forms from within an individual, who learns how to harness and use it. It is something that anyone can potentially do, and as such, is also the most easily explainable to the common people, and most widely accepted - it doesn't steal from nature, it doesn't use otherworldly energies (from the elemental planes), and it doesn't demand that it's users follow it's will. Psionic development results from focused training and study to bring the mind and spirit together and produce the desired effect.
and Xorlep? what is this event with the Gith, I've never heared of it before (sorry for my newbness)
what is this event with the Gith, I've never heared of it before (sorry for my newbness)
This was info from the Black Spine DS adventure. Basiclly the Githyanki had a strong/city hold beneath the Black Spine Mt. called Yathazor. I think it may predate the Green Age. Not entirely sure on that. The Githzeri planted and set off a mind bomb to cripple the Githyanki. The end result was that the Githyanki were left near mindless. The Gith are beleived to be the devovled decendace of the Githyanki.
The side effect of the bomb was that it imbued the rest of the life on Athas with a sort of psi gene mutation that has been passed down from generation to generation.
Hence why everyone one pretty much has a wild talent. I don't know if this is considered canon though.
In my game, I made it all but impossible not to notice that arcane magic was being used. You could feel the defiling and see the life force of plants rising as dark, whispy tendrals into the air. It would not directly point to the person, but you would know that someone cast an arcane spell...probably that newcomer, the one you didn't like the look of in the first place...
In 3e it would a bit harder to differentiate between the two. The only real tip off would be material components. I think it would be safe to say that it is easier for a wizard to conceal his talent for magic in the 3e world than it was in 2e. That is unless he openly defiled.
This begs the question if there should be some additional visual effects to acrane magic for DS purposes beyond open defiling.
Originally posted by Sysane
Back in 2e psionics didn't have a visual or somactic effects like magic. ...
That is something I'm not too fond of. I do not believe that there was any real need to add flashy effects to Psionics. It makes them feel like just another form of magic.
Originally posted by Sysane []
The Githzeri planted and set off a mind bomb to cripple the Githyanki. The end result was that the Githyanki were left near mindless. The Gith are beleived to be the devovled decendace of the Githyanki.
The side effect of the bomb was that it imbued the rest of the life on Athas with a sort of psi gene mutation that has been passed down from generation to generation.
Hence why everyone one pretty much has a wild talent. I don't know if this is considered canon though.
That is exactly how a DM of mine explained wild talents. Obviously it must be written down somewhere if two people have such similar views on the matter.
That is exactly how a DM of mine explained wild talents. Obviously it must be written down somewhere if two people have such similar views on the matter.
Its all in the DS adventure Black Spine. It was a good module.
I saw you mentioned Black Spine in the original post, but I misread the wording of your post.
Originally posted by The People
Ok, the gith mind bomb sorta makes sence, but how does the standard person tell the difference between magic and psionics? Do they know insticavely? or do they sometimes mistake one for the other? It seems that in 3e and 3.5 they share too many similaritys. but I like 3.5 and don't want to change too much of it. help?
Well, based on the Prism Pentad novels, the average person *doesn't* usually know how to distinguish between the two. Many seem to categorize it all as magic, and it takes a practitioner or someone else familiar with it to help point it out. Then, usually, it is pointed that wizardds cause a "ever growing circle of black ash" around them, so people see all wizards as defilers, and may think that a preserver is actually a psion. Defining the differences between preservers and defilers can make for a very interesting session for a group to deal with, as well as the differences between arcane and divine magic.
I dunno, I usually play a very supersticious world, where the average person fears magic, and sees both magic and psionics as "magic", and sees it all as frightening. This does produce a large number of lynch mobs to the character who just casually starts using it in a city. Tyr is a little more lenient, but it's not something completely accepted yet - more like a work in progress.
Just to ask: in 2nd Ed, Psionics didn't need V,S or M components; is that still the case? Because in my campaign, it works like this:
Psionics: The wielder doesn't say anything or wave their arms around. There is occasionally a signatory gesture from people formally trained in Schools of the Way (simply habits picked up from a particular way of being trained - those trained in Tyr tend to hold two fingers to their temples when they use the Way, for example). And Psionic powers are common enough that most of them will be familiar.
Clerical Powers: The wielder will have an obvious Holy Symbol that they use as part of the casting (thrusting it towards their foe, passing it over the person to be healed, etc), and they will give their invokations in clear language, and will mention their Patron ("May the Powers of Earth heal this injury!", "In the Name of Hamannu the God of War, I call the Lightning from the skies!"). Again, many people will have seen Clerical Magic (in the cities, Templars dealing with troublemakers). Not quite as often as Psionics (how often have you seen Police dealing with trouble?), but still, most people have an idea of what Clerical powers can do.
Arcane Spells: The caster speaks some weird language that nobody around recognises, and makes strange gestures. Even without a Honking Big Circle Of Ash, plants nearby may react. There may even be a greenish light drawn up from the ground. Their magics do Strange Things that are subtly different from The Way or Templar Powers, and are unfamiliar.
So most people (in cities, anyway) are familiar enough with the other two to recognise Arcane Spells - or at least guess it's Something Unfamiliar And Therefore Bad. It won't be perfect - a Templar from another city might be thought of as a Sorcerer, especially if they aren't using Common. Someone from a distant School Of The Way might use an unusual Power, and his casual School Gesture might be misinterpereted.
And, of course, there's always Somantic Concealment, or however that works in 3.5.
Just my two bits.
I usually have the effects of a psi power only visible, etc., to the target of the power, because the battle is taking place between that person and the mindbender.
If a master of the way(psion, psiwarrior, etc.) is attacked or is sure a companion is attack, I usually give them a spellcraft(or psicraft if you are treating psi as a totally different force then magic) in order to determine what exactly is going on.
Just my bit on how to deal with psi, but what do i know :D
In the DS novels, when anyone is attacked by the way they are always shifted into a reality of the mind, hence the visual, audio manifestations of the way in 3e.
That is almost exactly how mindscape combat works, which is why I so much prefer it to the 'defunct' standard psi combat. You can easily use such audio and visual aspects of spell powers in the mindscape that forms between psionic combatants to liven up the mental battlefield a bit, including such signiture aspects.
Originally posted by Korvar
Psionics: The wielder doesn't say anything or wave their arms around. There is occasionally a signatory gesture from people formally trained in Schools of the Way (simply habits picked up from a particular way of being trained - those trained in Tyr tend to hold two fingers to their temples when they use the Way, for example). And Psionic powers are common enough that most of them will be familiar.
Clerical Powers: The wielder will have an obvious Holy Symbol that they use as part of the casting (thrusting it towards their foe, passing it over the person to be healed, etc), and they will give their invokations in clear language, and will mention their Patron ("May the Powers of Earth heal this injury!", "In the Name of Hamannu the God of War, I call the Lightning from the skies!"). Again, many people will have seen Clerical Magic (in the cities, Templars dealing with troublemakers). Not quite as often as Psionics (how often have you seen Police dealing with trouble?), but still, most people have an idea of what Clerical powers can do.
Arcane Spells: The caster speaks some weird language that nobody around recognises, and makes strange gestures. Even without a Honking Big Circle Of Ash, plants nearby may react. There may even be a greenish light drawn up from the ground. Their magics do Strange Things that are subtly different from The Way or Templar Powers, and are unfamiliar.
This is how magic and psionics work in my campaign as well. I think that the changes made to psionics, specifically the outward signs, just make everything look the same and it makes the world more generic.
Psionics do not require physical anything since they are part of the mind. This is very differen though in mindscape, where these powers take on very real aspects. It is here where you can see manifestations for each power.
I'm not sure I remeber this well, but at some point, Psionics combat in Athas was further subdivided into more attacks/defenses, each of which was related to something in Athas (the mekillot, the dragon, etc..) Anybody remeber this? Or perhaps is was something my DM used himself?
Originally, as in from 1st ed. AD&D, Psionics had 5 attack modes and 5 defence modes, which had various plusses and minuses against each other.
Then, in The Will And The Way, each mode was subdivided into four sub-modes, each of which was represented by an image, and there was a honking big 20 x 20 table showing how each attack mode interacted with each defence mode.
I always wanted to make it into some kind of card game, where you would lay down your attack mode and defence mode, as did your opponent, then *flip*, you see how you did.
Originally posted by Korvar
I always wanted to make it into some kind of card game, where you would lay down your attack mode and defence mode, as did your opponent, then *flip*, you see how you did.
That is definetly an interesting idea which I believe has merit. It would definetly make combat a little more interesting. It introduces an element of chance which is always present in a battle.
1. a superstitious, cloistered world where the townspeople think that it's all magic, so kill them all.
or
2. A world where people know enough to differentiate between the different types of spelcasting.
But there is a third possibility; in a world where psionics is the norm, preserver magic, and occasionally divine magic could be mistaken for psionics.
I like the idea of the mindscape battles, could someboddy explain this in a bit more detail?
So, does the mindscape leave an impression/have any effect on the real world? and who can see what is happening within the mindsape?
The source of the power is the Black, everything that could be.
Most psionic creatures/people never develop their foci, while psionicists develop this foci which allows them to access greater amounts from the black.
Wild Talents/Psi Creatures are like teaspoons, getting a tiny amount of power, enough to create a single effect or a limited number of effects (since things like tigons have more power, but are still wild talents).
Psionicists increase their capacity, they have a bucket to fill with energy, and use.
This capacity is what is called "power points".
The Dark Lens, the physical representation of the black, can increase the amount a person can use, in effect allowing the mindscape to come through to reality.
Also why is the mindscape in the gray? not disagreeing, just curious what your points to support that are (since i always assumed it was all in people's minds, a waking dream).
Originally posted by DracoChapel
Also why is the mindscape in the gray? not disagreeing, just curious what your points to support that are (since i always assumed it was all in people's minds, a waking dream).
There is a website which has an (unofficial) map of the cosmology of DS. I forget which one exactly (any help here, guys?). IIRC, they used some of the events in the novels involving Sadira as supporting evidence for doing it that way.
Let me go see if I can find the link...
The mindscape therefore could resemble whatever the psychic wished: a flat, rolling plain, pillars descending into an abyss, etc.
I just have the two dueling psychics have their battle out in the blink of an eye; the other characters usually don't even know it happened except when one of the psionicists keels over or they sense it with their own psionics.