Druid working with a defiler? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Druid working with a defiler?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Aug 12, 2004 15:08:22 Hi

I've posted this question before, but it was originally part of a very long post and so may not have been read by many people...

The question is - could a PC party ever realistically include both a druid and a defiler? If so, what solutions would other DMs suggest? I don't want to tell my players they can't be these classes because of the clash, but equally I am rather stuck as to how the druid can be in the party without blatantly ignoring his duties.

Any suggestions? (Thanks if you replied to my original, longer post!)

Mark
#2
dawnstealer
Aug 12, 2004 15:25:38 PC Defiler with PC Druid? I'd say no. If one's an NPC, and happens to be a sorcerer king, maybe, especially if that king happens to be a Queen of Gulg. If the defiler is REAL secretive an no one knows they're a defiler, MAYBE. Other than that? Nope.
#3
monastyrski
Aug 12, 2004 16:57:58 I suggest that the druid makes an Int check and the result is treated as a sort of diplomacy check maid on himself. If they see each other for the very first time, the initial attitude is hostile. So, if the check result is <20, the druid HATES. If the check result is 20-24, the druid considers the possibility of cooperation as long as he is forced by situation. If the check result is >24, the druid is free of any prejustice, and estimates this defiler as he would estimate a member of any other class.
While it is not very kosher, nothing prevents using this check in 2e as well.
#4
zombiegleemax
Aug 12, 2004 18:04:01 Sorry Mona, but your asking for a DM to make a die roll to determine a PC's reaction, rather than letting the player of that character decide for himself how to react?

Anyhow, I can't for the life of me think of anything that would bring the two together besides the threat of death itself (and depending on the players, even that may not be enough). Even if the two had a perfectly matching alignment, their fundamentals are simply too different. Its most likely that the spirits of the land that provide the druid with divine magic would take steps to warn or alert the druid of his or her plight (refusing spells or other abilities) unless the druid took action. The defiler on the other hand, may not have any innitial reservations beyond 'These types of people normally kill defilers' and so he could at best be defensive and protractive. Really, its the druid part of the equation that doesn't work. Even an evil druid still guards the lands and life of Athas and see defilers as destroyers of what they protect.
#5
Wizardman
Aug 12, 2004 18:39:45 I can only envision two possible scenarios in which this could work:
a) if the druid has taken it upon him/herself to try to redeem the defiler; or
b) if the druid is aiding the defiler in killing other defilers (and when it is done, if both survive, the druid should either try to convert or turn on the defiler).
#6
zombiegleemax
Aug 13, 2004 11:36:55 Sorry, I didn't buy the "Spirit of the Land warns the druid about the defiler" thing. The druids couldn't be hunted to almost extinction if such thing would work for them.

The defiler by default makes it's knowledge a secret if he wants to live. And if the druid doesn't know that the guy standing there is a defiler he won't take an action.

If the guy in question turns out to be a defiler than the druid has to be the first to take action. Doing otherways the mentioned loss of spells and things like that is right. But not before.

IMHO Athas has it's own enmities which can't be ignored without failing the style and spirit of the world. The defiler-druid is the most prominent. For a short term (one adventure max.) they can work together (if they need the other to survive), but after that only one can remain. It's the same as if you want to force Legolas and Gimli in a team with some Uruk-Hai orks. Can work a for a scene, but you can't keep them together much longer without raping the LotR world itself.

The best solution for this is planning. The DM should decide the style of campaign and allow choosing character classes accordingly. If the party is restorationist than the DM should say no to defiler characters. If the party is a freelancer mercenary unit than either a druid or a defiler can participate but not both. If they working for an SK than druids are not allowable. It's that simple. Of course the trick here is to know your players and set the style accordingly (and then set the allowable characters accordingly).
#7
monastyrski
Aug 13, 2004 17:46:16
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Sorry Mona, but your asking for a DM to make a die roll to determine a PC's reaction, rather than letting the player of that character decide for himself how to react?

Pls., read the original question once again.
Toxophilly says that he doesn't want to tell his players they can't be these classes. Well, let a die tell!
As for me, I often tell my players that they can do something only after a successful Int or Wis check. After all, it encourages them not to generate Wis 3 wizards or Int 3 fighters.
Even if the two had a perfectly matching alignment, their fundamentals are simply too different.

I think that alignment is not of paramount importance here too. Druids think different. The grace of good druid or the personal gain of evil one has nothing in common with social expectations, so the alignments cannot match.
The defiler on the other hand, may not have any innitial reservations beyond 'These types of people normally kill defilers' and so he could at best be defensive and protractive.

Defiler knows very well that ANY type of people normally kill defilers. Moreover, a druid may provoke defiler's curiosity, because he does things that other types of people never do normally, and does not share the social hatred.
Even an evil druid still guards the lands and life of Athas and see defilers as destroyers of what they protect.

It is not a problem if we use Paizo rules, where any defiler can easily defile never again. Retribution is a social idea, not druids'. With original 2e or athas.org rules, it is more important, but, once again, a high-Int druid can consider numerous reasons not to hate.
#8
zombiegleemax
Aug 13, 2004 19:35:09 The one cannot be without the other. They are dependent on each other. If there were no defilers, the druid would have no purpose. If there were no druids, there would be no fuel for the defiler.

A druid and defiler can work if they are brothers or bound to each other. Or they could have joined together to defeat an even greater threat.
#9
jaanos
Aug 13, 2004 19:44:19 I can see some circumstance where it could happen.

1. Defiler is on a quest (with the party) to learn 'pure' magic, i.e how to cast magic without defiling (become a preserver).

2. If the Defiler was a shadow mage, who only defiled when not in contact or able to tap the black for thier power

3. as above, but a nercomant - harder to get along with the druid methinks, so they probably would have to share common elments of alignment.

4. Multi-class character who uses spells as a last resort (think thief / deflier who uses spells to get out of tight jams) or other similar situations.

5. The defiler activley hunts down other more powerful defilers becuase he hates mages (kinda an anti-hero, think blade or spawn, is what he is, but also kills those like himself) and works with the druid to that end. However, both know that one day the defiler will have to atone, change or be killed. The defiler defiles because he thinks it's the only way they can compete with the power of other mages - very useful if you use the path rules from 2e, which made it a little harder for preservers to be offensive type mages.

that's my idea's anyways.
#10
korvar
Aug 14, 2004 4:16:53
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
The one cannot be without the other. They are dependent on each other. If there were no defilers, the druid would have no purpose. If there were no druids, there would be no fuel for the defiler.

There's plenty of threats against one's Guarded Lands without defilers. People trying to chop down all the trees for wood, bad farming practices polluting the groundwater, huge armies of the Sorcerer Kings despoiling everything they can for fodder.

And I suspect most Defilers aren't going to be forward-thinking enough to see Druids as anything other than a threat.
#11
zombiegleemax
Aug 15, 2004 11:04:01 Thanks for the comments - I've decided that it would be too great a deglect to the druid's responsibilities to travel with a defiler, and so the druid player is changing to a psionicist (which he had expressed some interest in before becoming a druid).

I acknowledge that unusual circumstances could require cooperation between the two for a short period of time, but I don't want to start my campaign in unusual circumstances; if such a situation were to arise I'd rather it was part of the plot later.

Thanks,
Mark.
#12
zombiegleemax
Aug 17, 2004 22:11:27 I am normaly a fan of looking at the player who just anounced his plan to me like he has some mental defect, before telling him (or her) OK and let the NPC teach him (or her) the short comings of their idea. However unless you wanted to be really evil and take one or both of the players aside and coach them to kill each other (i find establishing a simple covert code to communicate during the game without tipping off other players is very helpful), your solution is best in this case where it is PCs that oppose each other.
#13
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Aug 17, 2004 22:59:26 My personal view: I require that if my group has a Druid with *any* Arcane spellcaster, of either the Defiler or Preserver persuasion, that both characters better give me a good damned reason for the two of them to work together. The baseline I work from is Druids see both Preservers and Defilers as stealing from life around them, it's only a matter of amount. And every Preserver is a potential Defiler. The players have to convince me otherwise, or else, it just doesn't happen. But, like I said, that's how I run my campaigns. Plenty of room for those who want to flesh out, and build their characters, and make the character act and react to the campaign setting as if it is a real world, and for those who don't, they have the typical steriotypes to work with, and can't go past them.

This way, I'm not coming up with rational, reasonable explanations for how the party works together, the players do the work on their end, leaving me free to, oh, make the campaign and stuff. To convince me, it also means my players become more familiar with the setting, based on the information I provide them (in print, and verbally), thus they are able to mesh with the world better. All in all, it makes for a rather effective method of getting the group into the campaigns.
#14
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2004 2:10:42 I'd have to say no.
Case in point, the Pyreen are druids. If defilers approach their groves, they automatically sense them and attack them on sight, until they are driven off or killed.

If a PC druid happens to go to the advanced stage, a Spirit of the Land, he/she/it's going to have a serious problem with defiler, even if alignments are similar- and especially if the defiler advanced to dragonhood, in which case that's an alignment shift. So definitely no group harmony when you look at the long-term.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 12, 2004 15:08:22	Hi I've posted this question before, but it was originally part of a very long post and so may not have been read by many people... The question is - could a PC party ever realistically include both a druid and a defiler? If so, what solutions would other DMs suggest? I don't want to tell my players they can't be these classes because of the clash, but equally I am rather stuck as to how the druid can be in the party without blatantly ignoring his duties. Any suggestions? (Thanks if you replied to my original, longer post!) Mark
#2 dawnstealer Aug 12, 2004 15:25:38	PC Defiler with PC Druid? I'd say no. If one's an NPC, and happens to be a sorcerer king, maybe, especially if that king happens to be a Queen of Gulg. If the defiler is REAL secretive an no one knows they're a defiler, MAYBE. Other than that? Nope.
#3 monastyrski Aug 12, 2004 16:57:58	I suggest that the druid makes an Int check and the result is treated as a sort of diplomacy check maid on himself. If they see each other for the very first time, the initial attitude is hostile. So, if the check result is <20, the druid HATES. If the check result is 20-24, the druid considers the possibility of cooperation as long as he is forced by situation. If the check result is >24, the druid is free of any prejustice, and estimates this defiler as he would estimate a member of any other class. While it is not very kosher, nothing prevents using this check in 2e as well.
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 12, 2004 18:04:01	Sorry Mona, but your asking for a DM to make a die roll to determine a PC's reaction, rather than letting the player of that character decide for himself how to react? Anyhow, I can't for the life of me think of anything that would bring the two together besides the threat of death itself (and depending on the players, even that may not be enough). Even if the two had a perfectly matching alignment, their fundamentals are simply too different. Its most likely that the spirits of the land that provide the druid with divine magic would take steps to warn or alert the druid of his or her plight (refusing spells or other abilities) unless the druid took action. The defiler on the other hand, may not have any innitial reservations beyond 'These types of people normally kill defilers' and so he could at best be defensive and protractive. Really, its the druid part of the equation that doesn't work. Even an evil druid still guards the lands and life of Athas and see defilers as destroyers of what they protect.
#5 Wizardman Aug 12, 2004 18:39:45	I can only envision two possible scenarios in which this could work: a) if the druid has taken it upon him/herself to try to redeem the defiler; or b) if the druid is aiding the defiler in killing other defilers (and when it is done, if both survive, the druid should either try to convert or turn on the defiler).
#6 zombiegleemax Aug 13, 2004 11:36:55	Sorry, I didn't buy the "Spirit of the Land warns the druid about the defiler" thing. The druids couldn't be hunted to almost extinction if such thing would work for them. The defiler by default makes it's knowledge a secret if he wants to live. And if the druid doesn't know that the guy standing there is a defiler he won't take an action. If the guy in question turns out to be a defiler than the druid has to be the first to take action. Doing otherways the mentioned loss of spells and things like that is right. But not before. IMHO Athas has it's own enmities which can't be ignored without failing the style and spirit of the world. The defiler-druid is the most prominent. For a short term (one adventure max.) they can work together (if they need the other to survive), but after that only one can remain. It's the same as if you want to force Legolas and Gimli in a team with some Uruk-Hai orks. Can work a for a scene, but you can't keep them together much longer without raping the LotR world itself. The best solution for this is planning. The DM should decide the style of campaign and allow choosing character classes accordingly. If the party is restorationist than the DM should say no to defiler characters. If the party is a freelancer mercenary unit than either a druid or a defiler can participate but not both. If they working for an SK than druids are not allowable. It's that simple. Of course the trick here is to know your players and set the style accordingly (and then set the allowable characters accordingly).
#7 monastyrski Aug 13, 2004 17:46:16	Originally posted by Mach2.5 Sorry Mona, but your asking for a DM to make a die roll to determine a PC's reaction, rather than letting the player of that character decide for himself how to react? Pls., read the original question once again. Toxophilly says that he doesn't want to tell his players they can't be these classes. Well, let a die tell! As for me, I often tell my players that they can do something only after a successful Int or Wis check. After all, it encourages them not to generate Wis 3 wizards or Int 3 fighters. Even if the two had a perfectly matching alignment, their fundamentals are simply too different. I think that alignment is not of paramount importance here too. Druids think different. The grace of good druid or the personal gain of evil one has nothing in common with social expectations, so the alignments cannot match. The defiler on the other hand, may not have any innitial reservations beyond 'These types of people normally kill defilers' and so he could at best be defensive and protractive. Defiler knows very well that ANY type of people normally kill defilers. Moreover, a druid may provoke defiler's curiosity, because he does things that other types of people never do normally, and does not share the social hatred. Even an evil druid still guards the lands and life of Athas and see defilers as destroyers of what they protect. It is not a problem if we use Paizo rules, where any defiler can easily defile never again. Retribution is a social idea, not druids'. With original 2e or athas.org rules, it is more important, but, once again, a high-Int druid can consider numerous reasons not to hate.
#8 zombiegleemax Aug 13, 2004 19:35:09	The one cannot be without the other. They are dependent on each other. If there were no defilers, the druid would have no purpose. If there were no druids, there would be no fuel for the defiler. A druid and defiler can work if they are brothers or bound to each other. Or they could have joined together to defeat an even greater threat.
#9 jaanos Aug 13, 2004 19:44:19	I can see some circumstance where it could happen. 1. Defiler is on a quest (with the party) to learn 'pure' magic, i.e how to cast magic without defiling (become a preserver). 2. If the Defiler was a shadow mage, who only defiled when not in contact or able to tap the black for thier power 3. as above, but a nercomant - harder to get along with the druid methinks, so they probably would have to share common elments of alignment. 4. Multi-class character who uses spells as a last resort (think thief / deflier who uses spells to get out of tight jams) or other similar situations. 5. The defiler activley hunts down other more powerful defilers becuase he hates mages (kinda an anti-hero, think blade or spawn, is what he is, but also kills those like himself) and works with the druid to that end. However, both know that one day the defiler will have to atone, change or be killed. The defiler defiles because he thinks it's the only way they can compete with the power of other mages - very useful if you use the path rules from 2e, which made it a little harder for preservers to be offensive type mages. that's my idea's anyways.
#10 korvar Aug 14, 2004 4:16:53	Originally posted by Ral of Tyr The one cannot be without the other. They are dependent on each other. If there were no defilers, the druid would have no purpose. If there were no druids, there would be no fuel for the defiler. There's plenty of threats against one's Guarded Lands without defilers. People trying to chop down all the trees for wood, bad farming practices polluting the groundwater, huge armies of the Sorcerer Kings despoiling everything they can for fodder. And I suspect most Defilers aren't going to be forward-thinking enough to see Druids as anything other than a threat.
#11 zombiegleemax Aug 15, 2004 11:04:01	Thanks for the comments - I've decided that it would be too great a deglect to the druid's responsibilities to travel with a defiler, and so the druid player is changing to a psionicist (which he had expressed some interest in before becoming a druid). I acknowledge that unusual circumstances could require cooperation between the two for a short period of time, but I don't want to start my campaign in unusual circumstances; if such a situation were to arise I'd rather it was part of the plot later. Thanks, Mark.
#12 zombiegleemax Aug 17, 2004 22:11:27	I am normaly a fan of looking at the player who just anounced his plan to me like he has some mental defect, before telling him (or her) OK and let the NPC teach him (or her) the short comings of their idea. However unless you wanted to be really evil and take one or both of the players aside and coach them to kill each other (i find establishing a simple covert code to communicate during the game without tipping off other players is very helpful), your solution is best in this case where it is PCs that oppose each other.
#13 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Aug 17, 2004 22:59:26	My personal view: I require that if my group has a Druid with any Arcane spellcaster, of either the Defiler or Preserver persuasion, that both characters better give me a good damned reason for the two of them to work together. The baseline I work from is Druids see both Preservers and Defilers as stealing from life around them, it's only a matter of amount. And every Preserver is a potential Defiler. The players have to convince me otherwise, or else, it just doesn't happen. But, like I said, that's how I run my campaigns. Plenty of room for those who want to flesh out, and build their characters, and make the character act and react to the campaign setting as if it is a real world, and for those who don't, they have the typical steriotypes to work with, and can't go past them. This way, I'm not coming up with rational, reasonable explanations for how the party works together, the players do the work on their end, leaving me free to, oh, make the campaign and stuff. To convince me, it also means my players become more familiar with the setting, based on the information I provide them (in print, and verbally), thus they are able to mesh with the world better. All in all, it makes for a rather effective method of getting the group into the campaigns.
#14 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2004 2:10:42	I'd have to say no. Case in point, the Pyreen are druids. If defilers approach their groves, they automatically sense them and attack them on sight, until they are driven off or killed. If a PC druid happens to go to the advanced stage, a Spirit of the Land, he/she/it's going to have a serious problem with defiler, even if alignments are similar- and especially if the defiler advanced to dragonhood, in which case that's an alignment shift. So definitely no group harmony when you look at the long-term.