I'll start....
1. Death ashes caused by the dying throes of anchient athasian gods, leaving a grey anti-life and anti-divine energy 'grey' metaphysical dust lying between athas and the outerplanes....
2. Accumulated athasian spirits rotting, unable to reach the outer planes....
Its a natural facet of the athasian universe, like the christian's Heaven, and did not "appear" at one time or another. All life-energy, once the shell that holds it gives up, goes there.
Originally posted by Jaanos
1. Death ashes caused by the dying throes of anchient athasian gods, leaving a grey anti-life and anti-divine energy 'grey' metaphysical dust lying between athas and the outerplanes....
Mine's similar to 1: the Grey was originally the home of the gods, where the souls of the faithful went to die. When Rajaat killed the Gods (which is why he doesn't appear in the Cleansing Wars), all that was left was the Grey. The Dead still are drawn there, but now there is no afterlife for them to inhabit, so they fade away...
Originally posted by Pennarin
Hoo hoo!! I got one:
Its a natural facet of the athasian universe, like the christian's Heaven, and did not "appear" at one time or another. All life-energy, once the shell that holds it gives up, goes there.
Originally posted by Korvar
Mine's similar to 1: the Grey was originally the home of the gods, where the souls of the faithful went to die. When Rajaat killed the Gods (which is why he doesn't appear in the Cleansing Wars), all that was left was the Grey. The Dead still are drawn there, but now there is no afterlife for them to inhabit, so they fade away...
The Hollow (That Which Is Not) is separated from existence (That Which Is) by the possibilities of the Black (That Which May Be). You have a progression from nonexistence, through possibility, realised as existence. Beyond this lies the Grey - That Which Was - the echoes of all that has been.
(Beyond this might lie That Which Should Not Be, or some other far-realm type place with even more capital letters...)
Athas has no gods. This is canon. Thus, the Grey, however it arose, did so independently of deities or overgods. Rajaat did not kill a pantheon of Athasian gods, because no such pantheon has ever canonically existed.
My personal theory is that since Athas is so connected to the concept of "lifeforce" that the Grey is simply a natural container for spent lifeforce. Just as how the cosmology of Dark Sun came about in a naturalistic-yet-magical manner, so did the Grey.
--and that's that NB
Athas has no gods. This is canon. Thus, the Grey, however it arose, did so independently of deities or overgods. Rajaat did not kill a pantheon of Athasian gods, because no such pantheon has ever canonically existed
Nice way to shoot down people's person brains storms there, Nero. Yes, we are all well aware of canon, I don't think all that many people here need reminded. Yes, we all know that by canon there are no gods, etc, etc, yaddah, yaddah. Allow people some breathing room though if they want to discuss something that is 'cananically' impossible though. Not trying to be mean; I'm just not a big fan of tossing around the word canon like a mallet to crush down individual creativity.
Maybe the Gray is the boundaries of an Ether Gap. A theory presented by above adventure is that Ether Gaps are proto-realities, alternate universes that represent "could have beens". Perhaps Athas *is* an alternate reality; what the universe would have been had there not be gods. The Gray represent the boundaries of that reality, from a planar perspective. There could be cracks through the "walls" of that reality, allowing gith in and & that undead sorcerer-king to come and go, but such gaps are all but impossible to traverse.
Anyhoo, just some ramblings
Adam
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Athas has no gods. This is canon.
Present tense. Nothing's said about any gods existing previously.
1. most people are well aware of the old 2e cannon that gods don't currently exist on athas and can't as the metaphysical pathways to link them to thier worshippers doesn't exist. Within that cannon material however, are references to anchient ruins which contain relics to anchient pantheons etc. Whilst gods don't exist on athas now, they could have in the past, it's not impossible. The other thing to consider is using 3.0e deities and demigods, gods which don't depend on worhsippers for divine ranks may not be overly concerned or affected by athas's unique metaphysical situation.
2. The common themes in this thread (and other threads on the same subject )have been: grey is somehow connected to lifeforce, grey somehow connected / caused / designed by anchient (long departed) gods, grey is the barrier to the outer planes (from cannon), rajaats research of the involvement, it's connection to the black. each of these deseve to be explore in more detail.
3. Grey connected to life force: From cannon material, we know that the grey is where the souls of athas's dead go to... to what? meld with the grey, or linger as spirits. This concept is solid. I suppose, from a creative view, what's intriguing is WHY the souls go to the grey, why some stay around, and why some creatures seems to live in this realm completely independantly of any previous physical existance on athas (forgotten dreams or nightmare of athas's extinct gods or proto-gods?). The key to this question is intriguing....
4. The grey was somehow caused by the anchient gods of athas: Xlors concept is intriquing, as it raises the possibilty of reversing the process. For a truly epic level campaingn. It also raises the distinct possibility of ONE day, a god returning (either to 'save' the anchient homeland, or because they need to hide from the rest of the pantheon...) Other takes on this connection between the grey and gods includes my idea that the grey is the ashes of dead gods, or that the grey was created deliberatly by the gods (maybe in a war against rajaat) or he's another one: the anchient athasian gods were distant, uninterested entitites (again from dieties and demigods 3.0e) and only 'sealed' athas to prevent rajaat from ascending to godhood (limited source of divine power?).
5. We know from cannon that the grey is THE barrier in regards to outerplanar travel. We also know that it's possible for mortal wizards to breach it, and that it MAY be getting thicker.
6. We also have good idea's on the concepts that the grey and black are somehow linked, and that rajaat was heavily researching the grey during his lifetime. All worthy of exploring.
Anyway, that's my view of the views presented thus far. I don't mind if people throw cannon around, but hey, it's a creative process so if people want the spectre of an evil, mass-divine-murderer- godly - refugee one day turing up on athas to hide out from the rest of the pantheon, that's fine with me
Originally posted by Jaanos
From discussion thus far, some key points seem to have arisen:
1. most people are well aware of the old 2e cannon that gods don't currently exist on athas and can't as the metaphysical pathways to link them to thier worshippers doesn't exist. Within that cannon material however, are references to anchient ruins which contain relics to anchient pantheons etc. Whilst gods don't exist on athas now, they could have in the past, it's not impossible. The other thing to consider is using 3.0e deities and demigods, gods which don't depend on worhsippers for divine ranks may not be overly concerned or affected by athas's unique metaphysical situation.
I'd rather Divine Ranks are kept clear of Athas myself. Divine Ranks, by virtue of their system, would imply a deity or at least some sort of partial deity (like a demigod). I don't think they should be around in the present Athas.
2. The common themes in this thread (and other threads on the same subject )have been: grey is somehow connected to lifeforce, grey somehow connected / caused / designed by anchient (long departed) gods, grey is the barrier to the outer planes (from cannon), rajaats research of the involvement, it's connection to the black. each of these deseve to be explore in more detail.
Which have been repeatedly in other threads, for the most part. If I remember correctly, Greyorm has an Athasian Cosmology thread, there's an Inconsistancy thread about it, and there's a handful of others.
3. Grey connected to life force: From cannon material, we know that the grey is where the souls of athas's dead go to... to what? meld with the grey, or linger as spirits. This concept is solid. I suppose, from a creative view, what's intriguing is WHY the souls go to the grey, why some stay around, and why some creatures seems to live in this realm completely independantly of any previous physical existance on athas (forgotten dreams or nightmare of athas's extinct gods or proto-gods?). The key to this question is intriguing....
Because the souls are attempting to reach the Outer Planes, so as to become petitioners for some gods' domain. However, the Gray bars this, and the spirits get trapped there. Without the access to the divine, the spirits eventually get dissolved and absorbed into the Gray itself.
4. The grey was somehow caused by the anchient gods of athas: Xlors concept is intriquing, as it raises the possibilty of reversing the process. For a truly epic level campaingn. It also raises the distinct possibility of ONE day, a god returning (either to 'save' the anchient homeland, or because they need to hide from the rest of the pantheon...) Other takes on this connection between the grey and gods includes my idea that the grey is the ashes of dead gods, or that the grey was created deliberatly by the gods (maybe in a war against rajaat) or he's another one: the anchient athasian gods were distant, uninterested entitites (again from dieties and demigods 3.0e) and only 'sealed' athas to prevent rajaat from ascending to godhood (limited source of divine power?).
I'd think the only way to reverse the process would be for a god to do it within the Gray's "bubble" itself. As there are no gods here, that makes the possibility reeduced to zero of actually happening.
5. We know from cannon that the grey is THE barrier in regards to outerplanar travel. We also know that it's possible for mortal wizards to breach it, and that it MAY be getting thicker.
Actually, we know, if anything, that it isn't possible for mortal wizards to breach it. The Planar Gate is not a magical device, it is a psionic artifact. And the Psurlons, as well as Githyanki and Githzeri are psionic creatures. If anything, Psionic creatures could potentially figure out how to breach it. I have a possibility I'm working on how to get around it, dealing with the Plane of Mirrors from the Manual of the Planes, as I've described in the other recent thread to appear about Outer Planes. The Plane of Mirrors is the only transitive plane that has not been mentioned being blocked by the Gray - and I feel that it is rather unknown. However, the Planar Gate could very well be using the Plane of Mirrors to escape the Gray.
6. We also have good idea's on the concepts that the grey and black are somehow linked, and that rajaat was heavily researching the grey during his lifetime. All worthy of exploring.
Well, the fact Rajaat was exploring it, I believe is in the official timeline, as the explanation for the development of the Deadlands. I would say that if he couldn't breach the Gray, then [arcane] magic will fall short of it as well. The fact that the Planar Gate is a unique artifact in the possession of an Undead Sorcerer-King, also suggests just how rare and precious such travel is, and how unlikely people would even know of the possibility without some significant discoveries.
Originally posted by Jaanos
From discussion thus far, some key points seem to have arisen:
1. most people are well aware of the old 2e cannon that gods don't currently exist on athas and can't as the metaphysical pathways to link them to thier worshippers doesn't exist. Within that cannon material however, are references to anchient ruins which contain relics to anchient pantheons etc. Whilst gods don't exist on athas now, they could have in the past, it's not impossible. The other thing to consider is using 3.0e deities and demigods, gods which don't depend on worhsippers for divine ranks may not be overly concerned or affected by athas's unique metaphysical situation.
I'd rather Divine Ranks are kept clear of Athas myself. Divine Ranks, by virtue of their system, would imply a deity or at least some sort of partial deity (like a demigod). I don't think they should be around in the present Athas.
2. The common themes in this thread (and other threads on the same subject )have been: grey is somehow connected to lifeforce, grey somehow connected / caused / designed by anchient (long departed) gods, grey is the barrier to the outer planes (from cannon), rajaats research of the involvement, it's connection to the black. each of these deseve to be explore in more detail.
Which have been repeatedly in other threads, for the most part. If I remember correctly, Greyorm has an Athasian Cosmology thread, there's an Inconsistancy thread about it, and there's a handful of others.
3. Grey connected to life force: From cannon material, we know that the grey is where the souls of athas's dead go to... to what? meld with the grey, or linger as spirits. This concept is solid. I suppose, from a creative view, what's intriguing is WHY the souls go to the grey, why some stay around, and why some creatures seems to live in this realm completely independantly of any previous physical existance on athas (forgotten dreams or nightmare of athas's extinct gods or proto-gods?). The key to this question is intriguing....
Because the souls are attempting to reach the Outer Planes, so as to become petitioners for some gods' domain. However, the Gray bars this, and the spirits get trapped there. Without the access to the divine, the spirits eventually get dissolved and absorbed into the Gray itself.
4. The grey was somehow caused by the anchient gods of athas: Xlors concept is intriquing, as it raises the possibilty of reversing the process. For a truly epic level campaingn. It also raises the distinct possibility of ONE day, a god returning (either to 'save' the anchient homeland, or because they need to hide from the rest of the pantheon...) Other takes on this connection between the grey and gods includes my idea that the grey is the ashes of dead gods, or that the grey was created deliberatly by the gods (maybe in a war against rajaat) or he's another one: the anchient athasian gods were distant, uninterested entitites (again from dieties and demigods 3.0e) and only 'sealed' athas to prevent rajaat from ascending to godhood (limited source of divine power?).
I'd think the only way to reverse the process would be for a god to do it within the Gray's "bubble" itself. As there are no gods here, that makes the possibility reeduced to zero of actually happening.
5. We know from cannon that the grey is THE barrier in regards to outerplanar travel. We also know that it's possible for mortal wizards to breach it, and that it MAY be getting thicker.
Actually, we know, if anything, that it isn't possible for mortal wizards to breach it. The Planar Gate is not a magical device, it is a psionic artifact. And the Psurlons, as well as Githyanki and Githzeri are psionic creatures. If anything, Psionic creatures could potentially figure out how to breach it. I have a possibility I'm working on how to get around it, dealing with the Plane of Mirrors from the Manual of the Planes, as I've described in the other recent thread to appear about Outer Planes. The Plane of Mirrors is the only transitive plane that has not been mentioned being blocked by the Gray - and I feel that it is rather unknown. However, the Planar Gate could very well be using the Plane of Mirrors to escape the Gray.
6. We also have good idea's on the concepts that the grey and black are somehow linked, and that rajaat was heavily researching the grey during his lifetime. All worthy of exploring.
Well, the fact Rajaat was exploring it, I believe is in the official timeline, as the explanation for the development of the Deadlands. I would say that if he couldn't breach the Gray, then [arcane] magic will fall short of it as well. The fact that the Planar Gate is a unique artifact in the possession of an Undead Sorcerer-King, also suggests just how rare and precious such travel is, and how unlikely people would even know of the possibility without some significant discoveries.
1. mortals can breach the grey, there is a sidebar about getting lost in the grey and using the contact spell, i think it's in preservers and defilers (not near my books atm)
2. Divine rank 0 is appropiate for powerful immortal beings, it doesn't make them a god - i think the book states that mortal being don't have divine rank 0, they lack it altogether. It's a neat game-mechanic way of explaing the sk's INMHO, but hey we can differ on that one - i can see some munckin players going "if they have divine rank 0, you gotta be able to increase it!" but no, as there is no way to GET divine rank, bar snagging another proto-god (elemental vortex, again my personal take) or brining it to athas with you.
Originally posted by Jaanos
Just a couple of quick ones Xlor, didn't want to quote the whole post:
1. mortals can breach the grey, there is a sidebar about getting lost in the grey and using the contact spell, i think it's in preservers and defilers (not near my books atm)
I'd like to know where. I know people can get lost in the gray, and I know they can enter the gray, just not get past the Gray into the Outer Planes - that is stated in Defilers & Preservers.
2. Divine rank 0 is appropiate for powerful immortal beings, it doesn't make them a god - i think the book states that mortal being don't have divine rank 0, they lack it altogether. It's a neat game-mechanic way of explaing the sk's INMHO, but hey we can differ on that one - i can see some munckin players going "if they have divine rank 0, you gotta be able to increase it!" but no, as there is no way to GET divine rank, bar snagging another proto-god (elemental vortex, again my personal take) or brining it to athas with you.
1) I have Deities & Demigods. Divine Ranks are also included in the SRD.
2) What relevance does the fact that all mortals don't have Divine Rank 0, have to do with that Divine Rank 0 doesn't equate to being a god?
3) Divine Ranks, of any rank, even that of 0, implies, by virtue of the name, that an individual is either a god, or somehow linked to Gods. it sets, what I feel, is an extraordinarily bad precident for Athas, which is supposed to be deviod of, well gods. There is better, less "clunky" means of defining a SK's power, than resorting to making them use a game mechanic which simply should not be used at all in Dark Sun (at least, in a standard Dark Sun environment).
Preservers and defilers, page 10:
" barriers exist between athas and other places. In the case of other planes of existance, the grey impedes travel."
"...consequently, travel via spelljamming is impossible, and planar travel is much more difficult ."
"When it comes to magical means of planar travel, the buffer formed by the grey imposes some restirctions. Both wizard and preist spells that provide acces to or contact with other planes from astral spell to gate to plane shift, require an additional check to see if the energy of the spell cuts through the barrier formed by the grey"
"The same holds true for those trying to contact or reach athas. The barrier formed by the grey impedes travel in both directions"
OK, now that is settled onto the next one...
Dieties and demigods, page 25:
"Rank 0... These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores far above the norm for thier species. They may have some worhsippers. Ordinary mortals do not have have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank althogether "
and from page 8 of the same book:
"The default assumption of the D&D game is that, while powerful outsider and elemental lords exist, they are not gods and they cannot grant spells to clerics they way deities do. Though they are powerful and often revered by those that share thier alignment, they reach no higher than divine rank 0."
And later on... page 8...
"The alternative is to maintain these powerful creatures at divine rank 0 but give them the special ability to grant spells to their servants. " If you want to limit this ability in some way, you can allow them to grant access to only a single domain"
To me, the above fits perfectly for clerics on darksun that worhshiop the elements, and templars and their SK's. Divine rank 0, special ability to grant spells, limited domain.
So there is the proof. Good that we could settle that
Originally posted by Jaanos
Dieties and demigods, page 25:
"Rank 0... These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores far above the norm for thier species. They may have some worhsippers. Ordinary mortals do not have have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank althogether "
and from page 8 of the same book:
"The default assumption of the D&D game is that, while powerful outsider and elemental lords exist, they are not gods and they cannot grant spells to clerics they way deities do. Though they are powerful and often revered by those that share thier alignment, they reach no higher than divine rank 0."
And later on... page 8...
"The alternative is to maintain these powerful creatures at divine rank 0 but give them the special ability to grant spells to their servants. " If you want to limit this ability in some way, you can allow them to grant access to only a single domain"
To me, the above fits perfectly for clerics on darksun that worhshiop the elements, and templars and their SK's. Divine rank 0, special ability to grant spells, limited domain.
So there is the proof. Good that we could settle that
What the hell does this have to do with the price of tea in china. I wanted to know the relevance of this sentance's first part, to the second part:
Originally posted by Jaanos
Divine rank 0 is appropiate for powerful immortal beings, it doesn't make them a god - i think the book states that mortal being don't have divine rank 0, they lack it altogether.
I know what divine ranks are, that was not in dispute. I just wanted to know how mortals not having divine rank 0, proves in any way shape or form, that divine rank 0 doesn't necessarily mean that the being is a god.
Your sentence made no sense. I was not asking for a complete listing of what was in the books, only for you to make some sort of sense of this sentence, which you still haven't done. No bother, since you apparently have gotten upset again, and aren't thinking clearly.
Now, I personally, simply do not want any relation to the idea of gods on Athas. Divine Rank, by virtue of it's name implies divinity. Divinity implies a god. Therefore, it is a mechanic that implies there are gods on Athas, when there are none. So, rather than using Divine Ranks at all, simply find or develop something else.
About the Gray - I coulda sworn the book said it wasn't possible to get to the outer planes. If not that book, then I know there's another one that does. I do know that, the First Sorcerer, who friggin created Arcane Magic, couldn't get to the Outer Planes, and had expended a TON of resources during the Cleansing Wars in an effort to do just that. However, it was all for naught, and only caused the Deadlands. So, if he couldn't do it - the closest thing to a Deity on Athas, with virtually inifinite power with magic, then I'm prone to believe nobody else can either.
The exceptions to the rule: Gihyanki & Githzeri - which shows that maybe, with intense study and attempts to crack it from the outside, the Githyanki, who, once again, live in the Astral Plane, probably figured it out.... twice. And the Githzeri could have gotten the process from the.... once. But apparently, it didn't become a full door for them, or else there'd be more of the Githyanki on Athas, y'know?
The Planar Gate: I tend to think the way it gets around everything is through the Plane of Mirrors. Some very smart Psionic manifesters discovered the Plane of Mirrors, and rigged up an Artifact that uses it. As the Plane of Mirrors is little to almost unknown, it has become the only known portal that escapes Athas. Further, I am thinking other outsiders (like Psulons) actually came through the Plane of Mirrors to Athas, or maybe, like the Githyanki, cracked the shell once - but apparently it is substantially harder to leave than to get in, and it already is very hard to get in.
Divine Rank, by virtue of it's name implies divinity
Okay. Xlore, I've respected you as a fellow board member and intelligent poster for a long time now. But I have to admit that your having a brain fry on this one. Of course the name implies divinty. Now, this is where I think your mental block is coming from: you can rename it. Yup. You can in fact quite easily seperate the concept of divine ranks from the actual mechanics that the system of adding increasing levels of power to an NPC or creature. I've noticed that in your arguments, you seem to be missing this most crucial point that I think many other people are taking for granted. Let's try out a few and see. We have 'power ranks' (sounds Super Heroe-ish), 'potency ranks' (sounds WoD-ish), 'force ranks (star wars-ish), metamorphic ranks (for those who want to assign this to SKs and such), or ascendancy ranks (hmmm . . . I like this, a little mystical sounding without seeming overly religeous in connotation). Of course, I'm sure someone else can come up with something better, but it will do for now. Now, since many people have expressed how they like the mechanic of it, we just have to rewrite and reinterperate the background workings of it. Now, I'm presuming (and maybe incorrectly) that the mechanics behind the rankings will not include the addition of being able to grant spells to followers. That's an ability that should be inheirent in the actual creature, being, or force in question (vortices, elemental beings, spirits of the land, etc). So, who do we slap these kinds of ranked abilities on? We could of course give them to a few elemental lords, the pinnacle of their kind. There's SKs for those who want that route, though one has to keep in mind some of the heightened senses gained by even rank 1; an SK would be fully aware of everything that transpires within his or her city without fail, so I wouldn't really suggest it (besides, Xlore's got plenty of beef in his metamorphosis aspects that there really isn't a need). Everyday heroes who somehow manage to become legendary? If that's your thing, sure; runs a little against the grain for my own home game, but whatever floats your boat. Other advanced beings? Why not?
Personally, I have most elemental lords, intangible and ephemereal beings who have advanced beyond even their own physical element, having quite a few ascendancy ranks, without the granting of spells. It was a simple, efficient way to figure out what to do with a powerful being before there was the ELH (which I still don't have, curse me), and its worked quite well. On the few jaunts the PCs have taken to the elemental planes, it made it all to easy for me to write up stats for them on the fly (and it really unnerves a group of players when they see you perusing through Dieties and Demigods book and then tossing a few dice about).
Well, sorry for comming across a little condescending Xlore. You just tend to get more than a little agitated sounding sometimes when you disagree with someone. Keep it cool; its only a game.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Okay. Xlore, I've respected you as a fellow board member and intelligent poster for a long time now. But I have to admit that your having a brain fry on this one. Of course the name implies divinty. Now, this is where I think your mental block is coming from: you can rename it. Yup....
And you apparently missed the boat on my argument there. Lemme requote it:
Now, I personally, simply do not want any relation to the idea of gods on Athas. Divine Rank, by virtue of it's name implies divinity. Divinity implies a god. Therefore, it is a mechanic that implies there are gods on Athas, when there are none. So, rather than using Divine Ranks at all, simply find or develop something else.
The very first part of that argument, defines it as my own opinion, and not something everyone else must accept, or even remotely implies that I think it's the way it has to be. Just my personal belief on the subject. I gave an explanation to it, to help define my very reason which I have disqualified the use of Divine Ranks within my own Dark Sun campaigns for anything, much less for Sorcerer-Kings.
Personally, I have most elemental lords, intangible and ephemereal beings who have advanced beyond even their own physical element, having quite a few ascendancy ranks, without the granting of spells. It was a simple, efficient way to figure out what to do with a powerful being before there was the ELH (which I still don't have, curse me), and its worked quite well. On the few jaunts the PCs have taken to the elemental planes, it made it all to easy for me to write up stats for them on the fly (and it really unnerves a group of players when they see you perusing through Dieties and Demigods book and then tossing a few dice about).
It's an interesting idea, just not something which I'll be using in my own Dark Sun campaign, and, when it comes to working out an idea that meshes with everyone, it should be taken into account that there are those who simply do not desire the mechanics of Divine Ranks, no matter how you rename them, to be used in Dark Sun. Now, at the same time, I've meshed together an alternative before, and when I get my website up again, it will be there for people to peruse.
Well, sorry for comming across a little condescending Xlore. You just tend to get more than a little agitated sounding sometimes when you disagree with someone. Keep it cool; its only a game.
When my argument is ignored, misinterpreted or otherwise disregarded, yes, I do tend to get a little agitated. My argument, which he decided to respond to, had absolutely nothing to do with his counter argument - which means he didn't even bother to read my argument, or he misinterpreted it, or simply didn't care. That is rather insulting. Now, the anger was primarily because, as with the sentence originally in question that Jaanos made, his counter argument had absolutely no relevance to the question I made.
The very first part of that argument, defines it as my own opinion, and not something everyone else must accept, or even remotely implies that I think it's the way it has to be.
Which is:
I personally, simply do not want any relation to the idea of gods on Athas.
Equals:
You can in fact quite easily seperate the concept of divine ranks from the actual mechanics that the system of adding increasing levels of power to an NPC or creature
Which your not really getting. As you said, you don't want any relation to gods on Athas. I'm not refering to gods, divinity, or even dieties. I'm refering to a mechanic. Had the ranking system been posted in the MM as a selection of ascending power templates, would there still be the same association? Sorry, I guess I don't associate the mechanic specifically with divinine beings when its not being used on, well, divine beings. As I said, I think alot of other people who favor the idea are able to dissasociate the mechanic from the background of where it came from.
Anyhow, I'd still rather something different for SKs, advanced beings, Rajaat, etc. So hurry up and get your site back, dang it!
1. Mortals don't have divine rank 0 - they lack it entirely
2. Immortal creatures, that have a special ability to grant spells should be given divine rank 0 - as i posted previously from deities and deimgods, which explains the reasoning very well.
3. Creatures with divine rank 0 don't have to be gods. Other people have already made the point about re-naming it (divine ranks) if you need.
4. SK's are immortal. They grant spells. That fits the criteria for a creature with divine rank of 0, with the special ability to grant spells which is not a god.
5. Just because you have divine rank 0 doesn't mean you can progress to divine rank 1, which would imply god-hood. This is also covered in deities and demigods.
I hope that assists you in seeing what other have been able to, but you haven't. The rules for immortal creatures that can grant spells (i.e SK's) that are NOT gods already exist in 3.0/3.5 format in Dieties and Demigods - so let's use them.
You said:
I know what divine ranks are, that was not in dispute. I just wanted to know how mortals not having divine rank 0, proves in any way shape or form, that divine rank 0 doesn't necessarily mean that the being is a god
Now, again, nice a slow:
Divine rank 0, as stated in cannon material (deities and demigods) is an appropiate rank for immortal, powerful beings that can grant spells to thier worshipers (ie SK's) to describe thier ability, but lack of true divine power or divity. Divine rank 0 is beyond mortal, not divine. You can split hairs about the naming all day, go ahead, i won't stop you :embarrass
Now as to above question, YOU are the one who is trying to make a link between mortals lacking divine rank, and divine rank 0 not being a god, and for the life of me, i don't see what's gotten a bee in your bonnet so bad
i mean, it's in a book, i understand it, others understand it, mortals not having divine rank 0 - does it prove that that rank 0 is truly divine? have i said that? no. Have i said that it doesn't prove? no. I simply stated it from a game mechanics point of view. So Xlor, go build a bridge - get over it As for your question about the outer planes, read the description of gate spell my dear forum member, if you can cast that (even with a chance of failure) you can reach, physically, the outer planes.
Now, i've made my points, they have been understood by other members. I'm not interested in getting into pointless petty arguments with you anymore.
From a game mechanic point of view, Divine Rank 0 is a perfectly suitable way of describing the SK's immortality, ability to grant spells AND thier lack of true divine power. It's there, already in 3.0/3.5 version, so let's use it in the advanced being rules being developed. It's entirley appropiate. If you don't like it, i'm sure the bridge your hopefully building will help you get over it.
Now, finally, as to your comments about me getting angry, mate, i'm totally chilled, couldn't be happier! the Springboks slammed the all-blacks, leaving the tri-nations way open, things are peachy in my life, and... yeah, angry? no. Now, i did read your post, and if i mis-understrood it, well, it happens - miscommunications is a part of life. Far be it for me to start ranting and raving because someone 'misses' the 'point' that i have so 'clearly spelled out'. I could take all your arguments and reverse them to your dealings with my posts, it might actually be amusing....
yeah, ok, here we go:
Xlor, when my argument is ignored, misinterpreted or otherwise disregarded, yes, I do tend to get a little amused. My point of view, which you have decided to respond to, had absolutely nothing to do with your attacks on my views - which means you didn't even bother to read my argument, or you misinterpreted it, or simply didn't care, or worse still, Xlor, you just don't 'get' it.
That is rather insulting. Now, the amusement was primarily because, as with the sentence originally in question that I made, which you seem to have made a tenous connection to a non-existant argument, your attack had absolutely no relevance to the point I made about divine rank 0 being appropiate for SK's, and more particually, about travel to other planes being possible. Getting back on topic, this thread is supposed to be about how the grey was formed. So let's stick to that. One thing i can count on in this forum, any idea i put up will be attacked by Xlor. That's fine, i find it comforting that someone cares enough to spend the energy on my idea's. You never know Xlor, oneday we may agree one someting
Seriously now that i've poked a little fun mate, i do need to say, i really don't care, i'm not angry, just amused. When someone tells me i'm wrong, and i have proof to back my claims, i just spell it out. That's what i did in regards to travelling to other planes, and divine rank 0 and the whole SK issue. You were wrong, i had the proof to back up my claims, so i did. Comes from working in Academia. You need to try and de-personalise it, but if you want to carry on like this, that's fine, i find it amusing and funny, and it makes me laugh, wich is cool.
Hope when you read this you can have a belly chuckle, smile a little and have some fun with the whole thing.
:D :D
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Whatever. Enjopy your soapbox. It's not worth it.
Originally posted by Jaanos
To me, the above fits perfectly for clerics on darksun that worhshiop the elements, and templars and their SK's. Divine rank 0, special ability to grant spells, limited domain.
If anything Rajaat may have a divine rank of 0, not the elements or SMs since either can grant more than one domain and aren't all that limited.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
If anything Rajaat may have a divine rank of 0, not the elements or SMs since either can grant more than one domain and aren't all that limited.
"Through mastery of both magic and psionics, Rajaat found a path to transformation an a higher level of existance. The First Sorcerer wasn't pleased, however, for this higher existance wan't the one he dreamed of."
Hmmm....
and another big HMMMM....
Dragon transformation, which he found ugly becuase it was / is an ugly process and deep, deep down, Rajaat just want to be loved and be like the other pyreen?
Avignon transformation, but to hard to do, given the taint he acquired by using defiling magic?
Or a path to Divinity, not appealing becuase of.... ????
Intriguing to say the least....
[You may begin throwing eggs now]
As for the other topic, I believe Xlor is right. However you splice it, Divine Ranks implies divinity. If you are going for an Athas with no gods, then Divine Ranks should be thrown out the window, because, by definition, Divine Ranks define gods.
Personally, I view it as an issue of semantics. The elves partake in ancestor worship, there are clerics who worship the elements, some templars see their SK as a god. So there obviously 'are' gods on Athas, despite the sentences that says there aren't. It is a question of how the worship is interpreted. Some might say that the worshipers are lonely voices crying out into the night. Others may say that they are prophets and holy men with a direct connection to some higher power.
I deviate from canon here. I believe their are gods on Athas. However, these gods are defined differently than the D&D rules define them. They are supernatural beings that embue power to their worshipers. A SK is a supernatural being, an Elemenal Lord is a supernatural being, an Ancestrial Spirit is a supernatural being, etc.
However, if you're being canonical, as Xlor is, you cannot help but accept that all of the Dark Sun material emphasizes that gods do not exist. Since Divine Ranks are a definition of gods, Divine Ranks do not exist either.
-ZG
If anything Rajaat may have a divine rank of 0, not the elements or SMs since either can grant more than one domain and aren't all that limited.
Now why did you have to bring Space Marines into this, Nyt? This is another subtle attempt to inject space hamsters into the conversation, isn't it.
[Not that I don't appreciate Dawnstealer's humor... Heck, I have a soft spot for artists anyway.... especially those who devote their time to DarkSun (a more worthy pursuit, I know not).]
Originally posted by Zeitgeistgeist
I wonder why it is that whenever I post to this board, Dawnstealer always replies with a joke.....
Eh, because mainly I think this thread is mostly about splitting hairs.
I don't see divine ranks as an automatic label of divinity, and if they are fine, Rajaat will be the only one in my campaign with one, and it will be 0. None of the SMs or other powers that can grant divine energy will have one.
Heck, then you can give Elemental Lords the same powers as various Divine ranks, although they have "Elemental Stupendousness" ranks instead. Washed clean of any ikky traces of godliness.
Okay, so I'm being a bit (a bit?) facetious, but the point's still good, I think.
Korar, possessed of Sarky Git Rank 0
Originally posted by Korvar
Yeah. If we can change the "Barbarian" to the "Brute"
I've actually opposed this the whole way...
Heck, then you can give Elemental Lords the same powers as various Divine ranks, although they have "Elemental Stupendousness" ranks instead. Washed clean of any ikky traces of godliness.
Okay, so I'm being a bit (a bit?) facetious, but the point's still good, I think.[/i] [/b]
Oh stop.
:P
Yeah. Yeah, I like that.
Originally posted by Korvar
Yeah. If we can change the "Barbarian" to the "Brute" and make it work in Athas,
What was wrong with the original Barbarian class? I thought barbs where just people who'se beliefs and living condition where not as "advanced" as the civilized people. There is no shortage of this type of person in Athas.
Originally posted by az_zel
What was wrong with the original Barbarian class? I thought barbs where just people who'se beliefs and living condition where not as "advanced" as the civilized people. There is no shortage of this type of person in Athas.
Eggsactly!
Others at athas.org felt otherwise and felt the need to change it's name for "flavor reasons".
Yeah, I'm not going to let this go till it gets corrected, heh.
What was wrong with the original Barbarian class? I thought barbs where just people who'se beliefs and living condition where not as "advanced" as the civilized people. There is no shortage of this type of person in Athas.
Oh, God! Not this argument again! Nyt and I argued long and hard to keep Barbarians barbarians and lost to the brutes. I'm going to go cry myself to sleep, now.
If the Grey is a melding of the Astral and Ethereal planes, but not exactly either, how does that explain the Inner planes? Are they just Athas' Inner planes or pieces of them broken off just for DS? They certainly don't act like the typical elemental planes since you can survive there without much trouble.
Or was the Grey formed as a barrier to deliberately isolate Athas from the rest of the multiverse? If so, when was it done? Has it always been like this, or did it happen when Rajaat began preening his champions, by some busybody divine being? (I favor the always theory myself) Was Athas left 'unfinished'?
And of course, with this 'not finished' thing, you have a whole lot more questions to answer, but then, that's what us DMs are for...:D
Originally posted by Ablamar
Okay, let's see if we can't swing this back onto topic here...:D
Never thought I would see another West Texan on these boards, let alone one that like DS. :D
Where in West Texas are you from? If you don't want to answer PM it to me because I am curious. I lived in the Midland-Odessa area for 16 years myself.
If the Grey is a melding of the Astral and Ethereal planes, but not exactly either, how does that explain the Inner planes? Are they just Athas' Inner planes or pieces of them broken off just for DS? They certainly don't act like the typical elemental planes since you can survive there without much trouble.
I'm going with the broken off theory myself. I tend to like that one more, especially since they are quite different from the norm.
Or was the Grey formed as a barrier to deliberately isolate Athas from the rest of the multiverse?
I think that was part of it, yes. Think of it as a really bad clogged sink drain now.
If so, when was it done? Has it always been like this, or did it happen when Rajaat began preening his champions, by some busybody divine being? (I favor the always theory myself) Was Athas left 'unfinished'?
I'm split between it always being there and it coming around in the Blue Age, when the Pristine Tower took out the Brown Tide and started the Rebirth. Seems like a good focal point to do something like that on a wordly scale.
And of course, with this 'not finished' thing, you have a whole lot more questions to answer, but then, that's what us DMs are for...:D
That, in essence, is the beauty of Athas and why I like it so much.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Never thought I would see another West Texan on these boards, let alone one that like DS. :D
Where in West Texas are you from? If you don't want to answer PM it to me because I am curious. I lived in the Midland-Odessa area for 16 years myself.
I'm not that paranoid. :D I live in Big Spring, 40 miles East of Midland, which is where I shop for my D&D stuff.
Originally posted by Ablamar
I'm not that paranoid. :D I live in Big Spring, 40 miles East of Midland, which is where I shop for my D&D stuff.
Cool.
Been there a few times.
Bout one of the only places to go fishing without driving halfway across the state (which takes a better part of the day).
:D
So before i explain my theory on the grey a quick bit of my world view.
I think that the Blue Age is where Athas began to go wrong, that the "original" world was supposed to be like an atheist/naturalist Earth. There was no magic, no psionics, no elemental clerics, no afterlife, no gods. When halflings died, or animals, or plants, they returned to the planet, their essence rejoining it. I think that the end of the Blue age signalled the descent of Athas into what it has now become. That Rajaat and his Champions, and the actions of the defilers, are not the disease, but are a symptom of the disease.
But it happened because the halflings did something wrong. (not the Brown Tide which is something different again) They developed the art of lifeshaping. This process cut off their tie to the land, the more the halflings practiced lifeshaping the less of their "essence" returned to Athas. This tainted/wasted essence, which was thousands/millions of halflings, over time became the Gray, a plane of the dead. The Gray was completely inaccessible to the halflings (except when they died) and since it was not supposed to exist the spirits of the dead slowly fade away into oblivion(unlike in other realms), their minds/thoughts gone, and their tainted essence trapped as part of the Gray.
Since all creatures still existing on athas are now descended from the halflings, and are effectively life-shaped creatures hardly anything is returning to Athas, it has become impossible for it to recover and the Gray grows constantly. Undead are even worse, since NONE of their essence is returned to Athas in any form until they are finally killed - imagine the thousands in the Deadlands, and they affect athas while they remain.
Necromancer spells use the "essence" from the Gray and make them basically the same as Defilers (they just get their energy from the dead). Dragon Magic is the worst because it actually uses the essence of living beings and totally annihilates them in any form essence/physical.
This is what a caffeine overload causes. Sad, isn't it? :D