We know the Athasian cosmology has no gods now, nor has it ever had gods. So, logically, while the Athasian Outer Planes will likely have potent entities, they will not in general be stronger than, say, the average sorcerer-king.
--thoughts? Opinions? NB
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
How do you feel Outer Planes would function in a Dark Sun high-level campaign? I'm well aware that the Inner Planes can fulfill endless years of gaming, for those inclined to go plane-hopping. Still, Athas does have Outer Planes, as spells like gate are not outlawed in 3e DS. Also, Dregoth was using the Planar Gate to go somewhere with a truckload of baatezu!
We know the Athasian cosmology has no gods now, nor has it ever had gods. So, logically, while the Athasian Outer Planes will likely have potent entities, they will not in general be stronger than, say, the average sorcerer-king.
--thoughts? Opinions? NB
1. I don't think the Outer Planes are accessable, save for through Dregoth's Planar Gate. Rajaat, the First Sorcerer, spent a lot of time, energy and resources attempting to crack the Gray, and failed, which resulted in that big black slab of volcanic glass to the south filled with Undead. True, Githyanki & Githzeri had figured out how to get into Athas - but honestly, the Githyanki *live* in the Astral Plane, and could have spent even more time attempting to crack the egg. If there was any one race that leaps to mind that could have gotten through the Gray, it would be the Githyanki. The Githzeri could have simply stolen that knowledge from the Githyanki during one of their feuds. And even so, the Githyanki apparently have quite a bit of trouble accomplishing this, or else there'd be more than 2 incursions. Psurlons could have garnered the idea from the Githyanki as well.
2. To me, for an epic-level group to have found the outer planes, they would have had to get ahold of a live Githyanki with knowledge as to how to get through it, or have somehow gone through Dregoth's most prized possession, the Planar Gate. Neither of those options jumps to mind as even remotely likely. Or, the players would have to find the people who made the Planar Gate, and quizzed them, or would spend potentially countless years, decades, centuries and potentially millenia attempting to solve the riddle - and I'd not make it even remotely easy - this would be something that could take literally years of game sessions to accomplish, akin to the idea of a character figuring out how to escape the mists of Ravenloft. And even then, I'd throw all the monkeywrenches into the mix I could, including a trip or three to Ravenloft itself.
3. The transitive planes, which normally provide the means for travel to and from the Outer Planes, are what is broken. Ethereal and Astral have merged to become the Gray. The Plane of Shadows is become separated from the rest of it, trapped within the same barrier that Athas is, by virtue of the Gray, only the Plane of Shadows piece trapped here is now referred to as the Black.
4. One possibility, bu it once again would have to be something that any players in my game would have to figure out for themselves, is the Plane of Mirrors - the "optional" transitive plane from the Manual of the Planes. Nothng in the Athasian sources ever mentions that Mirrors don't work, and in many ways, the Planar Gate does seem to be a large mirror of sorts. So, concievably, I'd maybe allow travel through the Plane of Mirrors, if, of course, the players realize this is even a possibility, or that the Plane of Mirrors even exists. Once they realize it exists, and travel can be possible, then it's a matter of figuring out how to go about doing it, or even how to find the other worlds once they've entered the Plane of Mirrors.
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
How do you feel Outer Planes would function in a Dark Sun high-level campaign? I'm well aware that the Inner Planes can fulfill endless years of gaming, for those inclined to go plane-hopping. Still, Athas does have Outer Planes, as spells like gate are not outlawed in 3e DS.
True, but that does not change the fact that they do not work on a reliable basis. Travelling yourself could terminate your career plan permanently. ;)
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
We know the Athasian cosmology has no gods now, nor has it ever had gods. So, logically, while the Athasian Outer Planes will likely have potent entities, they will not in general be stronger than, say, the average sorcerer-king.
That is not correct. Athas might have no gods, but there are still gods on other planes. Dregoth learned about them when travelling the planes and therefore decided to become one himself.
Kilamar
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Still, Athas does have Outer Planes, as spells like gate are not outlawed in 3e DS.
3e gate has no need of Outer Planes. As for their existence, the official sources are contradictory: p.65 of Dragon Kings, and p.10 of Defilers and Preservers say that Outer Planes do exist and are accessible via Astral Plane, while p. 60 of Dungeon #110 says that they do not. I assume the last.
Also, Dregoth was using the Planar Gate to go somewhere with a truckload of baatezu!
Athas is officially accessible from other Prime Material Planes - s. f. p. 14 of Marauders of Nibenay, so the fiends may come from their Outer Planes - who knows the limits of Planar Gate's power?
On to the topic at hand. I have the Gray surrounded by the Veil, which, if you can actually find it, is a barrier that has locked Athas away from the rest of the multiverse. It was made by gods (on the outside - I'd tell more, but one of my players recently discovered this forum) outside in the multiverse. So gods exist, but Athas is completely isolated from them (either to protect Athas from the gods or to protect the gods from Athas).
Breaching the Veil is nearly impossible, requiring either an artifact (read: Dregoth's Mirror) or a similar (campaign-length) expenditure of power. Getting to the outer planes is not impossible in my campaigns, but it is very, very (very) difficult.
Getting to the outer planes is not impossible in my campaigns, but it is very, very (very) difficult.
Agreed.
I have it that rare devices like big D's mirror and the scarce (even more so on Athas) planar portals as detailed in Planescape are the only way to travel to the outer planes.
