The last canonical appearance of the High God was at the rebellion of the Gods of Darkness. He laid down the three laws that underpin the cosmology, and then...vanished. For what apparently is forever.
In fact, it seems like the High God might not even be there anymore. When Krynn was stolen, the 20 remaining gods didn't seek out the High God to find out where the frickin' planet was. This leads to one of several conclusion:
1)The High God left the Krynnish cosmology, thus truly rendering anything done by Chaos, Takhisis, or any other fool with delusions of challenging the overgod meaningless, as he's no longer around to even challenge.
2)He left the gods no means of communicating with him. This has repercusions discussed below.
If 1 is true, then Krynn is on its own, and the Balance only exists in the minds of the three pantheons. There is no ultimate judge waiting to ensure the Balance is maintained. Thus, Good could triumph, and nothing would be the worse for wear. Gilean is just a stick in the mud, and Takhisis and co. are just simply brats who don't want to share anything with anyone.
If 2 is true, this leads to several interesting theories. One, it's possible the High God is an observer running an experiment, and the 22 gods of Krynn are simply rats in a maze. Thus, it would be inappropriate for a good scientist to interfere with an experiment, and thus the High God does nothing. Two, it could be the High God is sleeping. Perhaps forging Something from Nothing is a draining afair, and the overgod is simply slumbering, recovering his strength.
--thoughts? Opinions? NB
I have had problems with the whole "balance" thing. While it sounds good and makes for something in the "writing process", I always thought it did not make sense for the Gods of GOod to strive for Nuetrality...it just did not make them as good as they should be.
I would also mention the lack of 'enforcement' on deals. FOr example, the Dragons of LIght made their oath not to involve themselves in the War of the Lance in exchange for the safety of their eggs. And instead of honoring that agreement, the forces of Evil used them to create the Draconians.
AND THEN, the Dragons still made an oath after the War of the Lance not to attack the dragons of evil unless they attacked first. And then the Dragon's of Light (along with Paladine) agreed to let Takhisis win the events leading up to the Chaos War. As a reader, the moment I saw that being mentioned, I knew 100% that Takhisis would try to undercut everyone in some way, to the point that when she did try to betray the others (or rather, when she did) it came as absolutely no suprise.
After the betrayal over the egg's, I would have never bargained in good faith with anything of Takhisis ever again. It would be stupid to have done so yet they did it continually.
Even with the support of their gods, it is still up to the mortals to do the legwork of achieving their own goals and learning their own lessons. Ariakan didn't just submit his ideas to Takhisis and then sit around eating bon-bons while she put them into action. Paladine pushed the Heroes of the Lance in the right direction but didn't do their job for them.
The High God should not, in my opinion, simply be a pumped-up Paladine. A transcendent divinity is not going to be poking it's nose very often, as it operates on a time scale mortals cannot even imagine.
Chaos was imprisoned by the action of the gods and relased by action of mortals. It may be that the High God wanted both gods and mortals to have to deal with the consequnces of their decisions, and understand the effect that their actions have on each other.
The All-Saints War was different, because the world was still in it's formative stages and the conflict threatened to abort the whole process of creation. But now that the "experiment" is up and running, the High God wants to let it run.
I figure that creation itself was the high god forcing chaos through a matrix of order into the universe. Thus, the ordered Here, and the unordered Beyond. From there, the high god called the gods to do something with this order, while HG spent his energy maintaining it. it's not that he doesnt do anything, so much as he's got other things to deal with.
Takhisis stole the world? It's OK. Thanks to the omnipresent and pervasive balance that exists down to the tiniest level of existence, something will happen to make it work out. People may die, nations may crumble, gods may be stripped of their divinity, but sooner or later something like a kender and a dead wizard will come along and connect the dots.
The Highgod shouldn't even come into the campaign. He's as aloof and omnipresent as any other supreme being, content to let the gods and the mortals who worship them sort things out. It doesn't make him useless, it just makes him outside of common experience.
Cheers,
Cam
What actually triggered it? I don't know. Was the High God watching and listening at that moment? Maybe. Maybe whenever a God or Goddess speaks like that, it causes such reactions. All we know for sure is that the banishment worked.
I can't imagine how any oath ever made with Takhisis would not be done in such a manner. She wants to hold our eggs untill her war is complete? Ok, then let her swear by the High GOd that she will return them (or rather, promised to do not destroy them, and in her view, she was not destroying them, only corrupting them) with the Draconians.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
Now, there is apparently some sort of enforcement mechanism within the pantheon of God's. As we saw in LEGEND OF HUMA< Huma forced Takhisis to make the Oath to the High GOd that "she would not return to Krynn or her dragons as long as the world was whole" and then swore by the High God. And by that combined word alone, she was banished from Krynn. She clearly struggled to say those words (more from the pain of the Dragon Lance in her then anything else) and there was that moment, after Kaz the Minotaur removed the DragonLance that she reigned supreme for a moment....and in the next moment was banished from Krynn.
What actually triggered it? I don't know. Was the High God watching and listening at that moment? Maybe. Maybe whenever a God or Goddess speaks like that, it causes such reactions. All we know for sure is that the banishment worked.
I can't imagine how any oath ever made with Takhisis would not be done in such a manner. She wants to hold our eggs untill her war is complete? Ok, then let her swear by the High GOd that she will return them (or rather, promised to do not destroy them, and in her view, she was not destroying them, only corrupting them) with the Draconians.
OK big deal. She swore by the High God and was banished to the Abyss, but then from that moment on she plotted and planned to re-enter Krynn. The War of the Lance is a perfect example. She took the corner stone (or whatever it was) from the Kingpriests Temple, corrupted it, and placed in Neraka. She would have entered Krynn if not for those pesky kiids and their dog...er... I mean Berem and his sister. The world was still "whole" then and she tried to enter it again.
Originally posted by Koranith
OK big deal. She swore by the High God and was banished to the Abyss, but then from that moment on she plotted and planned to re-enter Krynn. The War of the Lance is a perfect example. She took the corner stone (or whatever it was) from the Kingpriests Temple, corrupted it, and placed in Neraka. She would have entered Krynn if not for those pesky kiids and their dog...er... I mean Berem and his sister. The world was still "whole" then and she tried to enter it again.
Without the Cataclysm, Kryrnn would still be whole, and thus her "banishment" was complete and she could NOT come back to Krynn no matter what untill that part of her oath was complete and chances are, she knew it. Otherwise, it would have been very easy, in order to "tip the balance" to have returned her Dragons and herself once again to the world.
Sure, she plotted endlessly, but knew she could not even bother returning to Krynn untill it was no longer whole. ONce the Cataclysm had happened, only then was the door really now opened to her. I can imagine that Paladine and Gilean were well aware of Huma's Banishment of her and realized that the Cataclysm was going to give her the opportunity to return. It was probably because of that, that Fistandantilus KNEW he could not just open the Portal to the Abyss and draw out Takhisis to do battle just like that. He knew he needed the cataclysm to ensure she could even be drawn into the world.
Otherwise he would not have needed to wait 100 years after the Cataclysm to do so. He could have just ran off with Denubis the instant the Conclave left the Tower of High Sorcery in Palanthus and done it then.
In 2E On Hallowed Ground, High God has the portfolio of energy, truth, justice and chance, with worshipper's alignment of "any good".
I would agree with NB that High God is not contactable with the gods. He may be working behind the scene, but nobody knows it. So I suppose he may be a bit useless as a DM plot device. Not that Ao is that much better.
One problem about this whole Highlord issue is the confusion over the events of the War of Souls. I've mentioned in another thread that there was a lot going on in the legal department at the time that those books were being written so probably some of the storyline got changed due to the hectic events. remember that each Krynnish diety is represented by a celestial object, (constellation, planet, moon) the Highlord was once associated with the sun, and that apparently stayed the same during the age of mortals (as far as anyone said anyway)
Originally posted by Ares
...the Highlord was once associated with the sun, and that apparently stayed the same during the age of mortals (as far as anyone said anyway)
It's High God. Highlords were those dragon dudes from the 4th age.
And no, the sun wasn't the same.
Originally posted by Ares
And the reason goodness strives for balance is because of Istar.
That's not necessarily true. Istar is definately an example of what happens when the good gods let things get to far out of balance...but they adhered to the doctrine of Balance in the past as well (Third Dragonwar comes to mind).
Originally posted by Ares
One problem about this whole Highlord issue is the confusion over the events of the War of Souls.
Well...calling him by the wrong name isn't helping the confusing factor at all. LOL!
Originally posted by Ares
the Highlord was once associated with the sun, and that apparently stayed the same during the age of mortals (as far as anyone said anyway)
I'm not sure where you read that...I don't recall it, but that doens't mean it's not written anywhere.
That said, however, it was clearly stated in the Age of Mortals books (even Dragons of Summer Flame) that everything was different. The stars, the moon, and the sun. (hence the titles of the War of Souls novels as well)
The balance has been pursued since the gods fought each other directly in Krynn's primordial past. the gods of light felt bad about all the damage to the planet the war caused. but never before or after in Krynn's history has the pendulum swung so far into the light. this is why a cataclysm was needed to stop the whole system. don't you think that Paladine would have stopped the kingpriest the moment it started to look like corruption was on the horizon? Removing access to spells is one thing, but directly saying "know your place, jabroni" to the current kingpriest a century before thing get out of hand is another thing entirely.
Originally posted by Ares
read it again then. it talks about how the moon and stars looked strange. no mention of good ol' mister sun. and teh Highlord and High God are both names refering to the same being. both names have been used in the past.
It might be mentioned that the High God was represented by the sun, I don't remember for sure. But I guarantee that it was mentioned (several times) that the sun was different in the 5th Age as well.
And I've never heard of the High God being called the "Highlord."
There is the supreme god, the High God. The leader of the wings of the Dragonarmies, the Dragon Highlords. The minor dragon regents, the Dragonlords. And the super dragon regents the Dragon Overlords.
It's confusing, especially when people (including WotC and Sovereign Press) use the terms incorrectly.
Originally posted by Ares
read it again then. it talks about how the moon and stars looked strange. no mention of good ol' mister sun. and teh Highlord and High God are both names refering to the same being. both names have been used in the past.
The balance has been pursued since the gods fought each other directly in Krynn's primordial past. the gods of light felt bad about all the damage to the planet the war caused. but never before or after in Krynn's history has the pendulum swung so far into the light. this is why a cataclysm was needed to stop the whole system. don't you think that Paladine would have stopped the kingpriest the moment it started to look like corruption was on the horizon? Removing access to spells is one thing, but directly saying "know your place, jabroni" to the current kingpriest a century before thing get out of hand is another thing entirely.
I quote page 523 of Dragon's of a Vanished Moon, the last paragraph on the page.
"There were now three moons in the sky instead of one. Yet the sun that rose every morning was the same sun that had ushered in the Fifth Age."
Next Point....
No, High God and Highlord are not two terms that refer to the same being. The High God is the uber god of Krynn. Highlord refers to the commanders of the dragonarmies during the War of the Lance.
No...Paladine would not have stopped the Kingpriest the moment he became corrupt. Paladine would have violated the gifts of the pantheons if he had done so....The gods of neutrality gifted mortals with Free Will. To have stopped him would have violated that gift. Instead the kingpriest was allowed to choose his own fate, and the consequences that came with it. And yes, if the kingpriest would have paid attention to the warnings, he would have realized the dangerous path he was treading down.
So then one wonders...did Paladine want the Cataclysm? Well...for the ultimate god of good...that doesn't seem to make much sense either. So the question is...why didn't he stop the Kingpriest?
I agree with Serena that he wouldn't actually step in and try and persuade the Kingpriest one way or another...at least, not interfere with his free will. (which is probably why the 13 warnings were so obscure in the first place) But why did he keep granting the Kingpriest's spells? I don't know. I speculate that the Myceram(sp) had something to do with it. Perhaps Paladine was trapped by his own dogma? That wouldn't surprise me either. But even the final spell that the Kingpriest was casting...Paladine was granting that spell to him...until the Kingpriest lost his concentration, and the magic got away from him. Then the Myceram fell off, and Paladine let him have it (in what I still believe is the most powerful scene in any Dragonlance book).
A lot of it just doesn't make sense. Although after writing this post...I think I'm a fan of the "trapped by his own dogma" scenario. I'm going to look into that some more.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Then the Myceram fell off, and Paladine let him have it (in what I still believe is the most powerful scene in any Dragonlance book).
Which book is this please?
I've avoided most of the prequel stuff, just curious.
Thanks
Originally posted by VoceNoctum
Which book is this please?
I've avoided most of the prequel stuff, just curious.
That would be Sacred Fire...book 3 of the Kingpriest Trilogy. Some of the most excellent DL reads. And the scene where Paladine finally confronts the Kingpriest at the end of the book (and the subsquent chapter of the Cataclysm itself) is extremely powerful. Spoilers ahead....
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The Kingpriest finally sees at the end what he has caused...what is going to happen because of his blindness by fear. He prostrates himself in front of Paladine, weeping, begging his forgivness. Then Paladine refused to forgive him...the whole scene...just wow. I get goose bumps just thinking about it. It is the one and only time I got teary when reading a book. Absolutely amazing...
When Goldmoon made her prayer as the Queen of Darkness killed her, that prayer "somehow" made it's way to Paladine (in the second or last book of the WoS trilogy, can't remember which). Either Goldmoon's prayer was very strong or she had help. But, well thats just how I like to see it.
Taky messes with the river of souls, and then someone further upstairs takes it personnel.
But that just me. ;)
Originally posted by Brimstone
The Kingpriest finally sees at the end what he has caused...what is going to happen because of his blindness by fear. He prostrates himself in front of Paladine, weeping, begging his forgivness. Then Paladine refused to forgive him...the whole scene...just wow. I get goose bumps just thinking about it. It is the one and only time I got teary when reading a book. Absolutely amazing...
I know. That was really, really, REALLY well written, the way those final moments of the Kingpriest played out. Reading it just made me go back and re-read it over and over to better get the gravity of it.
As far as the High God goes. My first and only real exposure to him was when Takhsis was forced to swear by the High God against Huma. Her oath was to leave along with her Dragon's "As Long as the World is whole" And then swore by the High God.
Kaz the Minotaur then scaled the Queen of Darkness at Huma's request. After much trepedation, Kaz pulled the DragonLance from her body.
it then send, for one instant, Takhisis reigned supreme, at full power. IT said she was triumphant for that one instant, at full strength and roared to the skies.
And then there is an explosion of fire and energy or something like that. ANd then, the Queen of Darkness is banished.
Takhisis may not have even intended on her own to honor the agreement. She may well have been hoping the High God did not hear it, perhaps in her heart it meant nothing.
BUt the fact is, that next instant, she was gone.
She was probably just as suprised as anyone was at her banishment from Krynn. But regardless, it was 100% clear that she was gone.
Has it ever been established just how Takhisis entered Krynn in the time of Huma? LEGEND OF HUMA was somewhat vague on that. We know that for The War of the Lance she entered thru the Foundation Stone of the Temple of Ishtar thanks to Berem. We know in The TWINS TRILOGY, she was supposed to have entered after Raistlin exited the Abyss thru the Portal.
I know it had something to do with what Galan Dracos tried to do, but it was never clear just whom or what was behind it.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
Has it ever been established just how Takhisis entered Krynn in the time of Huma? LEGEND OF HUMA was somewhat vague on that. We know that for The War of the Lance she entered thru the Foundation Stone of the Temple of Ishtar thanks to Berem. We know in The TWINS TRILOGY, she was supposed to have entered after Raistlin exited the Abyss thru the Portal.
I know it had something to do with what Galan Dracos tried to do, but it was never clear just whom or what was behind it.
I believe this was around the time that the mages first made the Portals and there was mention in the Legends trilogy of the belief that at the first creation of these Portals one of the Black Robes used one to enter Takhisis' realm (where he got to know her in intimate detail), after which Takhisis used the open portal to enter Krynn.
But I was pleased overall that mentioning the kingpriest did spark some debate... There's hope for this little section of the board yet...
Originally posted by Brimstone
You know...this has been bothering me for a while. Why didn't Paladine just stop granting the Kingpriest his spells?
"There was a time when good held sway. Do you know when that was? Right before the Cataclysm!
Yes," he continued, " the Kingpriest of Istar was a good man..."
That's from Fizban in Spring Dawning. I'm sure you've read it before; I'm just using it to emphasize my point here. You mentioned free will, and I would imagine that Paladine hoped, right until the final day, that the Kingpriest would see the error of his ways. It's not to hard to believe that if the Kingpriest stopped receiving his spells that he would imagine "evil" was somehow interfering with his prayers, or some such nonsense. The way his character is projected, he certainly wouldn't see the fallacy as his.
I haven't read the Kingpriest Trilogy, so I can only really base my comments on what I've seen in Chronicles and Legends.
It probably was not untill that time before the Cataclysm that things really got put into motion. I try to imagine that some sort of meeting of the God's was called (probably against Paladine's will).
I imagine all the gods of Darkness were in favor of the Cataclysm. I am sure that came as no suprise to any of the god's of light.
THen the Gods of Neutrality would actually have sided with the gods of evil on this. Claiming that they were in just as much danger of being destroyed as anyone else might have come to a suprise to the God's of Light.
And I imagine that when Solinari stood against the god's of Light, as her followers were being just as decimated as any one else, with the balance of Magic being pushed out of the world and actually standing against the God's of Light would have been a suprise.
I imagine that things were put into motion at that time. The Night of Doom was orderered. The Signs would be sent, and I am sure Paladine did so with the 100% certainty that it would be enough to asway everyone else's fears. And I am sure Gilean and Takhisis made it 100% clear that if the KingPriest did what they were claiming, they would do the Cataclysm.
I imagine that also, Mishakall sent the omen to Lord Soth, to try to get him to stop the Cataclysm as well.
In any event, we know what happened. In Book 3 of the KingPriest Trilogy, when the Kingpriest is about to make his demands, he realizes the precence of others in the chamber. While some believe that the others in attendance were something to do with Crysannia and Tasselhoff's listening in as was seen in TIME OF THE TWINS, I believe it was probably Takhisis and Gilean, ready to do what needed to be done if the Kingpriest did what he was trying to do.