Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sildatorak Aug 15, 2004 2:15:19	Today I had an idea for what could be the ultimate neutral evil act undertaken by the arcanoloths (or at least a sizable subsection of them). It is extremely lawful in execution, extremely chaotic in intent, and possibly the most evil betrayal that I can think of. This one act is the collective destruction of the entire rank of ultraloth, a cohesive plan on the part of arcano's to lift themselves to the pinacle of 'lothdom by eliminating the only fiends that stand between them and running the whole show. This though raises a few questions, obviously. 1) Is the 'loths racial bond strong enough to prevent backstabbing of this magnitude? 2) How would the arcanoloths even begin to accomplish something like this? 3) Which arcanoloth will end up betraying his or her kindred to their superiors at the last minute? I have a few rough ideas for this plan, but I'm not quite sure how it will all fit together. Shemmy and Rip, I expect you to put out some kick-ass ideas about this because you are the resident 'loth and overachiever, after all. Here are my very rough answers to the questions. 1) Yes. Not all arcanoloths will be involved, but a large percentage will be. A few assassinations keep those who are asked to join in but refuse from ever revealing the dark of it. 2) Something with the Heart of Darkness? Perhaps draining the lawfulness and chaos from a large number of greater baatezu and true tanar'ri and channeling it into the ultraloths will cause them to fall away from Neutral Evil and loose their place as favored children of the Baern. 3) I also had the crazy idea that Shemeska is a "risen" yugoloth tonight. She is still evil (and [evil]), but she doesn't have the racial dedication to the goals of the baern anymore. She is an outcast who works only for herself. A'kin still holds allegiance to the 'loth race, and will find out about this plot and attempt to blow the whistle. Shemeska will try to stop him so that the plan can come to fruition and the ultraloths who cast her aside will face the same fate.
#2 Tevish_Szat Aug 15, 2004 3:32:09	It is not too evil, but it still dosn't seem like something the 'loths would do. Sure the arcanaloths are fully capable of commiting such a betrayl without remorse, but the loths are also very complex creatures. they seem to be surprisingly stable as far as command chain goes, with less in fighting than either the baatezu ot Tanar'ri. this may be just because i haven't seen as much exposure for the 'loths, or it may be as I bveleive it to be: the 'Loths, the grand manipulators, know their places. they know their schemes in the long, perhaps million or more year run for the Blood War, their plans of the other fiends, and for the Multiverse. Perhaps a single Loth only knows their part and the parts of those they must order around, or perhaps the lowest castes only know that such things exist, but the loths to not engage in such brazen evil among their own kind because it does not suit the ultimate goal of multiversal evil. As such, it's nto a real racial bond preventing such a magnitude backstabbing, but their dedication to evil in its abstract. Of course, this is only my take. I'm not as knowledgable about my fiends as a lot of people around here are, so perhaps i'm wrong.
#3 Shemeska_the_Marauder Aug 15, 2004 10:39:00	*grin* I can see it happening on some level, and in fact *points at own storyhour* that's somewhat close to portions of my own campaign in which there is a 'loth civil war and a wholescale purge of the upper ranks (Ultroloths) of the ruling heirarchy by a cabal of Arcanaloths calling themselves the 'wheels within wheels' (though at least that's what happens on the surface that is obvious anyways). It goes deeper than any sort of racial subtype betrayal on their part, and the leaders of the cabal have their own personal reasons unknown to their followers, but it happens nonetheless and the Ultroloths while still higher in the heirarchy than the arcanoloths, are both reduced in number and largely subservient to a very small number of arcanaloth elite ruling the 3 'loth towers. The fact that the crawling citadel of the general of Gehenna vanished just before the war breaks out is more food for thought. I'll comment more but I'm on one of my players laptops and about to run my game. So I can now officially say that I drove two hours through a hurricane to run. ;)
#4 incenjucar Aug 15, 2004 11:21:05	A few issues: 1) Ultroloths are rather powerful and rather canny. Remember, they ALL were arcanaloths themselves. 2) Altraloths, or however you spell it. 3) Most arcanaloths want to BE ultroloths eventually. Being cute and fluffy doesn't compare to having more power. 4) Unless the arcanaloths have found an alternative form of ascension, they will weaken their race (and, if diverting the ultros elsewhere, strengthening others). The ultroloths PROTECT the arcanaloths to a degree.
#5 factol_rhys_dup Aug 15, 2004 12:19:48	I just don't think that the arcanoloths have anything to gain from offing the ultraloths. Their little system works, in its own corrupt way.
#6 sildatorak Aug 15, 2004 13:02:36	Originally posted by Incenjucar 3) Most arcanaloths want to BE ultroloths eventually. Being cute and fluffy doesn't compare to having more power. I came up with that dilema when I thought about it a little bit more. Perhaps it isn't just offing the ultroloths so that the arcanoloths now hold the highest rank in the race, but rather draining that caste of all its 'lothy power and absorbing it for their own. An arcanoloth with an ultraloth's power in addition to its own might result (or something else that ends up being moderately stronger than an ultroloth, at least). This would result in the arcanoloths who are in on the plot rising up and assuming the role currently occupied by the ultroloths. Any ideas on what this new caste should be called or look like? I think they need to be something completely distinct from ultroloths or arcanoloths, but I'm not sure exactly how yet.
#7 freefall Aug 15, 2004 18:38:32	It would probably be easier for the Arcanaloths to ascend to the Ultroloth state than figure out a way to somehow unlock the Ultro's potential while still in the Arcana state. Also, any Arcanaloths who are cunning and evil enough to come close to succeeding in such a scheme would probably evolve into an Ultroloth in the process anyway, so then they'd have no reason to continue with the scheme, and they'd probably kill any non-ascended accomplices they had in the matter so that they wouldn't have to worry about their new-found power being threatened. It's an interesting idea, but considering that Arcanaloths turn into Ultroloths once they are neutral-evil enough, I don't think that it would be particularly worthwhile for them to try it. And this isn't even considering the fact that Ultroloths are smarter than Arcanaloths (and probably more paranoid).
#8 incenjucar Aug 15, 2004 23:44:11	Canny Arcanaloths would, instead, work on another method of ascension under the noses of the ultroloths (perhaps trying to focus on what ALLOWS them to ascend), that could be more easily forced. Mayhaps a doggy version of an altroloth. Perhaps ending up in a faintly reptilian humanoid with an ultro's smooth skin?
#9 ripvanwormer Aug 16, 2004 23:26:59	The way arcanaloths become ultraloths is by defeating them. If a group of arcanaloths defeated all the ultraloths, they would be entitled to become ultraloths themselves. But with no ultraloths left (what? Even as pets?) who would perform the requisite surgeries? Well, they would be able to do it themselves, probably, seeing as there would be no one to stop them. Except the baernaloths, of course. And the altraloths, but they're too few to be a real threat. Not that the baernaloths aren't few, but their mastery of the secrets of the Waste and its madness belies their numbers. But if they decided not to transform themselves into ultroloths, and the baernaloths didn't force them to become ultroloths anyway, they could stay arcanaloths. They wouldn't be able to get ultroloth powers, but they could continue to develop their arcanaloth powers and maybe find more through secret bargains with the baernaloths, or they could bargain with the night hags to become altraloths. Anyway, the easiest way for them to kill all the ultraloths would be to seize control of the Siege Malicious in the Wasting Tower of Khin-Oin and use its power to create a disease tailor-made to kill only ultraloths. Some might escape by hermetically sealing themselves away from the plague vectors, but they might kill off a lot of them. I can also imagine them finding a completely different artifact and using it to shield themselves from divinations while they teleport en masse into the ultroloths' bodies, devouring their internal organs and bursting out of their hollow husks.
#10 zombiegleemax Aug 19, 2004 14:05:56	It seems like betrayal on that scale is more appropriate to the tanar'ri, but I can see it being attempted. The danger of course is that pitfiends or balors will seize the moment to enslave the NE fiends, or Apomps will rise up to take advantage of the ensuing chaos to destroy the hated yugoloth race. Of course, killing ultraloths is like killing the Lady of Pain in some ways, you have to find them first. And who knows what the baerns will do? What I always found scary about the loths is their bizarre yet almost selfless dedication to Evil. The baatezu want an empire, the tanar'ri want a playground, but the loths really believe in the superiority of Evil itself. The gehelreths have religion, but the loths seem to have more true devotion...brrrrrr.....
#11 PJammaGod Sep 01, 2004 4:30:21	Evil without law or chaos, pure, indiluted and not marred by petty ideologies or ethos. That is what the Yugoloths represent and why I consider them so dangerous. Sadly most primers I talk too seem more fearful of the Blood War and its immediate consequences. That is always the case in such things, the Yugoloths plan for the long term -Serai, Eloi Planeswalker