I was wondering what prestige classes and core classes people thought were appropriate for a DL game. I have a few thoughts but I dont have my books on me at the moment so I'll come back and post my few thoughts on this so far.
Any thoughts, comments or whatever would be appriciated.
GCS
Originally posted by OzyBurrfoot
I tried getting some help on the fansite boards with this and basically got ignored so lets see what happens here.
I was wondering what prestige classes and core classes people thought were appropriate for a DL game. I have a few thoughts but I dont have my books on me at the moment so I'll come back and post my few thoughts on this so far.
Any thoughts, comments or whatever would be appriciated.
Are you asking about from specific books or just in general? In genreal most, but not all, classes will work, it's a very PC and PrC friendly world. If you are asking about a specific book or class just post it and you'll get all sorts of helpful, albeit contradictory opinons.
Originally posted by Koranith
Are you asking about from specific books or just in general? In genreal most, but not all, classes will work, it's a very PC and PrC friendly world. If you are asking about a specific book or class just post it and you'll get all sorts of helpful, albeit contradictory opinons.
He's talking about the "Complete" line of books, of which there are two so far:
Complete Warrior
Complete Divine
I have neither the Complete Divine or Warrior, but currently one of my players is working toward becoming a spellsword.
Some wouldn't work at all - bardic type ones wouldn't work so well (Bladesinger is probably out), hexblade doesn't quite fit the setting, and the warrior/mage classes run into some weapon prohibitions of the Orders of High Sorcery (though it would be fine for sorcerers - it would be handy for a Legion Sorcerer to have a few levels of spellsword). Aside from that, you could squeeze just about anything in, if you don't mind getting a little creative with the setting. A Samurai could be a member of a knightly order from far across the sea, perhaps. Invisible Blade or Master Thrower are a perfect PrCs for Rogues or Mariners.
We're also modifying and incorporating classes from the Dragonomicon and from Unearthed Arcana (Monte Cook's book, I can never remember which is which).
Originally posted by clarkvalentine
Some wouldn't work at all - bardic type ones wouldn't work so well (Bladesinger is probably out), hexblade doesn't quite fit the setting
Not to give away anything major, Clark, but the hexblade class has been working out pretty well in the campaign you're in so far. ;)
We're also modifying and incorporating classes from the Dragonomicon and from Unearthed Arcana (Monte Cook's book, I can never remember which is which).
Arcana Unearthed is Monte's book, Unearthed Arcana is the one from WOTC. The class in question is the akashic, which is just perfect for Aesthetics of Gilean! Oddly enough, the swashbuckler is also the akashic, and also has 2 levels in a half-janni racial class. She really is the oddest character in the group, and it has nothing to do with the fact that her player is married to the DM...
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Not to give away anything major, Clark, but the hexblade class has been working out pretty well in the campaign you're in so far. ;)
I thought we'd already wondered about that and been told "No, that isn't it." But it is the only thing that made sense - it doesn't register on the wizard's Spellcraft radar, and his mysterious nosebleeds with every effort...
Originally posted by clarkvalentine
I thought we'd already wondered about that and been told "No, that isn't it." But it is the only thing that made sense - it doesn't register on the wizard's Spellcraft radar, and his mysterious nosebleeds with every effort...
I never denied a thing. I just didn't confirm anything, either.
It's the same with Rand Lucas and the brass dragon, y'know.Cheers,
Cam
The Invisible Blade (Complete Warrior)
Follower of the Black Flame(Or something like that I forgot the exact name.) , (Complete Divine)
Frenzied Berserker (Complete Warrior)
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We just had our Half-Kender Rouge go into Hex-Blade, and we have a Ranger with the optional no spell casting from the Complete Warrior I think it is. I believe its called the Urban Ranger, any ways I love how these other classes work into DL so good its great. I think thats all the optional classes we have, I like the Swashbuckler class i was playing one for a bit and worked really cool, but i'm more a spell casting guy which is wierd cause i never used to be. Damn that Raistlin Majere changing my life....
GCS
Originally posted by talinthas
i dunno, i don't like the fact that the favored soul has two dependent ability scores. Besides, DL has a ready made spontanious divine caster that fits flavor anyway.
I allow the Favored Soul. One of the classes, from the Miniatures Handbook; which btw is not a Complete book, I do not allow is the Healer class.
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Originally posted by clarkvalentine
Some wouldn't work at all - bardic type ones wouldn't work so well (Bladesinger is probably out)
Actually the Bladesinger works pretty well in the campaign I'm running. They have to join the White Robes but it probably works better if you don't enforce the ToHS Prestige Class. In this case the player has levels in the ToHS PrC and Bladesinger PrC and it works. Ideology wise there is an interesting conflict between loyalty to elven kind and magic. That was part of the Test, would a bladesinger draw his blade against his fellow elves if they sought to destroy/corrupt magic?
Originally posted by talinthas
i dunno, i don't like the fact that the favored soul has two dependent ability scores. Besides, DL has a ready made spontanious divine caster that fits flavor anyway.
Two dependent ability scores makes up for the fact that it has about the same spellcasting potential as the mystic as well as all good saves. ;)
The split-dependency is a great trick to employ these days in class design. The kender nightstalker uses it, I think.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I allow the Favored Soul. One of the classes, from the Miniatures Handbook; which btw is not a Complete book, I do not allow is the Healer class.
The favored soul was reprinted in Complete Divine, which is where many folks may have seen it for the first time. The healer's a good choice for a Mishakalite character, though after a point it's a little purple sparkly for most people.
It's called "the girlfriend class" by the R&D guys at WOTC.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Actually the Bladesinger works pretty well in the campaign I'm running. They have to join the White Robes but it probably works better if you don't enforce the ToHS Prestige Class. In this case the player has levels in the ToHS PrC and Bladesinger PrC and it works. Ideology wise there is an interesting conflict between loyalty to elven kind and magic.
That's funny. I've always had the view that that was the ideological case with all elven mages (well Silvanesti anyway). ;)
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The favored soul was reprinted in Complete Divine, which is where many folks may have seen it for the first time.
Doh! Your right I remember seeing it in there as well. I believe it was listed in the first couple of pages ? I forgot which forum I was in but I was reading a thread where they were ripping the Complete Divine apart. They said the book was full of errors; although I did not see any in the copy we use.
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Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Actually the Bladesinger works pretty well in the campaign I'm running.
I was thinking that Bardic song magic doesn't work on Krynn (the Bard class isn't supposed to be used, sayeth DLCS). I thought the Bladesinger had a spontaneous spellcasting requirement, and then ethere's the weapon prohibitions of the Orders of High Sorcery. But as always the important thing is that it works in your version of the world.
As far as Elves vs. Magic goes, recall that there are many Elven White Robes. If the Bladesinger has a conflict, there are people he can go to for guidance.
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I remember asking something about this earlier on in another thread(About elves using song magic.). What initially sparked my interest on this was the novel ElfSong written by Elaine Cunningham. One of the best novels I have ever read.
I think I've read that. Its a Forgotten Realms books right.
Elaine Cunningham also wrote Vampire in the Mists. A Ravenloft novel. One of the best books that I've read
Originally posted by Sysane
I think I've read that. Its a Forgotten Realms books right.
Elaine Cunningham also wrote Vampire in the Mists. A Ravenloft novel. One of the best books that I've read
Yup. The entire Song & Swords series(I believe that is what it is called.) are great literary works!
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Originally posted by clarkvalentine
I was thinking that Bardic song magic doesn't work on Krynn (the Bard class isn't supposed to be used, sayeth DLCS).
Sure it works ... in the Fifth Age.
I thought the Bladesinger had a spontaneous spellcasting requirement, and then ethere's the weapon prohibitions of the Orders of High Sorcery. But as always the important thing is that it works in your version of the world.
Nope, the only spellcasting requirement for Bladesingers is the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells. Let's not forget that the weapon restriction for the Orders of High Sorcery is merely a suggestion, it's not a specific requirement of either the PrC or Organization.
And I agree Elaine Cunningham is an excellent writter. The only writter I know to have ever use a bladesinger, although in a nagitive fashion in my opinion. Bladesingers don't assassinate elven royalty...
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Clark, remember that the weapon restriction is consider more tradition than a rule. At one point the Head of the White Order was a mariner/wizard.
Dunbar Mastersmate may have been a mariner, but he didn't use a cutlass as a wizard. ;) Most of the wizards of High Sorcery abide by the traditional restrictions of the Orders, especially in the years before the Age of Mortals. Post-War of Souls era mages are much less tradition-minded in that sense, but it's a mandate passed down from the gods, not something made up by the Conclave on a whim.
Cheers,
Cam
And I agree Elaine Cunningham is an excellent writter. The only writter I know to have ever use a bladesinger, although in a nagitive fashion in my opinion. Bladesingers don't assassinate elven royalty...
Which book did this happen in ? Was it in ElfSong ?
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Originally posted by iltharanos
Sure it works ... in the Fifth Age.
Yup, you're right. Brain cramp on my part - I'd been doing a lot of thinking about a game where there were no Bards, got 'em mixed up in my head.
And regarding the weapon restrictions, yes it's a suggestion, but it just doesn't feel Dragonlance to me to have sword-swinging wizards. But that's just me - the primary criterion should always be "Is it fun for you & your group?"
Originally posted by clarkvalentine
And regarding the weapon restrictions, yes it's a suggestion, but it just doesn't feel Dragonlance to me to have sword-swinging wizards. But that's just me - the primary criterion should always be "Is it fun for you & your group?"
True enough. I'm running a post-WoS campaign now and I've got two wizards of high sorcery in the game. Since I've relaxed the weapon suggestion (especially in the mainly wizard-less post-WoS era) the two Red Robes are radically different. The first is a pure spellcaster in the truest sense of the term and is very much the classic DL wizard, for he doesn't carry any weapons on his person, making use primarily of his spells. The other is a spellsword (from CW) and wields a greatsword as his primary weapon.
Since the former actually has levels in the WoHS PrC and is a pure spellcaster, I've actually had it where the current Conclave of Wizards views the more traditional Red Robe as being of higher rank than the spellsword Red Robe, and thus the spellsword's superior in matters of magical importance. It's been quite amusing to see the one Red Robe command the other ... though the player of the former Red Robe has been good about not abusing his in-game authority over the other.
One full-out fighter. One wizard/thief. This character should be interesting, since they are TOTALLY against the Conclave, and all for sowing a little chaos against them. He hasn't done anything yet, but things will get rather interesting if he crosses that delicate line. As you can guess, he has no intentions of taking the test of High Sorcery.
The real eyebrow raiser in the group, is the one that may spark some response from you guys. One of the group is progressing toward the Mystic Theurge class (ie, wizard AND cleric)- So we have a renegade wizard/ cleric, but it goes a step further. He worships both Shinare and Zivilyn for the different things they represent. Shinare for trade, Zivilyn for insight, visions, yadda yadda. Basically, this person is all into politics and commerce in real life, so this concept REALLY appealed to him. Besides, he's using borrowed magic from the moon gods ("free") and worships 2 neutral gods, so the alignments don't contradict what he is doing. *flinches* What do you all think of that last character concept? Too crazy?
Originally posted by frostdawn
The real eyebrow raiser in the group, is the one that may spark some response from you guys. One of the group is progressing toward the Mystic Theurge class (ie, wizard AND cleric)- So we have a renegade wizard/ cleric, but it goes a step further. He worships both Shinare and Zivilyn for the different things they represent. Shinare for trade, Zivilyn for insight, visions, yadda yadda. Basically, this person is all into politics and commerce in real life, so this concept REALLY appealed to him. Besides, he's using borrowed magic from the moon gods ("free") and worships 2 neutral gods, so the alignments don't contradict what he is doing. *flinches* What do you all think of that last character concept? Too crazy?
I think it is a great idea, as long as he only gets access to 2 domains total, not 2 per god.
Originally posted by frostdawn
Besides, he's using borrowed magic from the moon gods ("free") and worships 2 neutral gods, so the alignments don't contradict what he is doing. *flinches* What do you all think of that last character concept? Too crazy?
You can be a multiclassed wizard/cleric, that's not the problem. A mystic theurge would be quite doable, in fact, so long as the character doesn't mind the renegade status! But the multiple gods thing is a big issue. No god shares a cleric with another god in the saga - even neutral gods. The covenant a cleric makes with a deity is a unique arrangement with no room for others in its place, and its why you can't be a wizard of High Sorcery and a cleric, or a cleric of Paladine and a druid of Habbakuk, or any number of other arrangements with multiple patrons.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The covenant a cleric makes with a deity is a unique arrangement with no room for others in its place, and its why you can't be a wizard of High Sorcery and a cleric, or a cleric of Paladine and a druid of Habbakuk, or any number of other arrangements with multiple patrons.
Cheers,
Cam
I agree with this ... but still, frostdawn's idea is a bit intriguing. In my own campaign I have the whole Mishakal family of Gods(minus Solinari) as being quite close, so close that their respective churches actively cooperate with one another. While I don't think I'd ever allow what frostdawn has allowed, I could see where certain deities could have a close enough collection to have such an arrangement (Mishakal and her sons Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk).
Originally posted by Koranith
Quick questions on Bards. On this site I've heard it stated that they use High Sorcery and Primal Sorcery. Which is it? Give that the DLCS and AoM say that the Bard is an unusable class prior to the 5th Age and the way the PHB has them laid out, that they use Primal Sorcery.
Bardic spells are primal sorcery.
Along those lines, when the cleric of Shinare (trade, commerce, etc) found out about the cooling rods in the Temple from KoD, the group got rather excited. They're talking about removing the rods and starting up a Krynnish refrigeration business. Old Shinare ought to love that. :D
Originally posted by clarkvalentine
...but it just doesn't feel Dragonlance to me to have sword-swinging wizards.
We do have Guerrand DiThon with his (probable) single level of cavalier and sword as a weapon.
He's aiming for Sacred Fist (of Habbakuk) from Complete Divine, which is thankfully not as stupidly powerful as 3.0's Sacred Fist (in an old high level campaign I knew a 19th level SF with effectively +9 hands for the purposed of bypassing damage reduction.)
Seems to me that once he gets there, it'll take awhile with the +2 level adjustment, in fact I'm quite sure it wont be untill Spectre of Sorrows. Anyway this seems very themely considering the Phaethon's belief that they're decended from Habbakuk. I've also made the decided that once he get the sacred fire ability from Sacred Fist and activates it those firey wings of his are going to turn blue (since Habbakuk is the Blue Phoenix) for the durration.
In Krynn, it's difficult to find wizard spells above 2nd level if you're a renegade. I wonder if that's an issue in any of your campaigns...
In my campaign I've had the Conclave make it illegal to sell, teach, provide spells above 3rd level to anyone, not limited to to just non-WoHS wizards. So for a any non-WoHS to acquire a 3rd or higher level spell is rather difficult but not impossible. One could find such "illegal" spells in any number of places; in a dead WoHS belongings, a monster's treasure trove, any number of places in a ruin, hire a Spellfilch to steal a few, bribe a not-so-loyal WoHS, etc. I don't think this is any different from way things are currently being handled, but in my campaign I came right out and said it.
You can be a multiclassed wizard/cleric, that's not the problem. A mystic theurge would be quite doable, in fact, so long as the character doesn't mind the renegade status! But the multiple gods thing is a big issue. No god shares a cleric with another god in the saga - even neutral gods. The covenant a cleric makes with a deity is a unique arrangement with no room for others in its place, and its why you can't be a wizard of High Sorcery and a cleric, or a cleric of Paladine and a druid of Habbakuk, or any number of other arrangements with multiple patrons.
Cheers,
Cam
One thing I have noticed among the players who have joined the games I have run, is that they often forget that while a god may be of magic, this god will still have chosen clerics, knights, even simple soothsayers. Simply because your god is one of magic doesnt mean you HAVE to be a wizard to worship that god. So yeah, I agree, you can be a multiclassed character thats devoted to dieties, but under my ruling as a DM, it would be under one god.
Randal
One thing I have noticed among the players who have joined the games I have run, is that they often forget that while a god may be of magic, this god will still have chosen clerics, knights, even simple soothsayers. Simply because your god is one of magic doesnt mean you HAVE to be a wizard to worship that god. So yeah, I agree, you can be a multiclassed character thats devoted to dieties, but under my ruling as a DM, it would be under one god.
That's certainly possible in Greyhawk or the Realms, where the gods of magic (such as Wee Jas, Boccob, Mystra or Azuth) also have clerics. Krynn's three magic gods do not give power to clerics at all, making it therefore impossible to be both a cleric and wizard of the gods of magic.
Cheers,
Cam