One the one hand, it's said that Raist "absorbed" him when he defeated him in the past. But then it's mentioned that Fistandantilus' ghost and his remains are in the bowels of Skullcap. How can this be if Raist had already defeated him?
Then you have the whole Fistandantilus Reborn novel. In there, there are two "versions" of Fistandantilus which seem to contradict earlier information.
Furthermore, in Tanis the Shadow Years, you have Fistandantilus appearing in some kind of afterlife. Again, from what I understand, previous info. would seem to point that he should not be in any kind of afterlife.
And finally, in the anthology Relics and Omens, there's yet another story about Fistandantilus. In this one is says that Fistandantilus has been reborn into the world after one of his spell books has been stolen. Does that mean he's roaming Krynn right now?!
All this seems very confusing to me. Is there any chance we will ever get a definitive explaination as to what really became of ol' Fisty? Maybe we'll see a write up in the upcoming ToHS?
If I'm totally missing something or if anyone has any insight, please feel free to jump in!
1) Fistandantillus chose Denubis over the Kingpriest to help him open the portal because the KingPriest was "too corrupted". Yet, I felt Crysannia was more flawed then the KingPriest was yet it opened for her.
2) We know what happens next. The Gnome's Time Traveling Device caused some sort of interference when Fistandantillus used him spell to open the portal.
3) THe spell fails, Fistandantillus already had it prepared, via his book, that he would someday find his way back to the world. That alone is not enough. Raistlin was aided by Fistandantillus BEFORE he ever got his hands on Fistandantillus's spell books in Xax Tharoth or whatever the place was called.
4) Fistandantillus was able, on at least two or three occasions to directly aid Raistlin. First during his test. Second in Xax Tharoth when he was facing Khishanth the Black. Thirdly in Silvanesti when he cut an additional deal with Fistandantillus to defeat the Nightmare of Lorac and Cyan Bloodbane.
5) Raistlin goes on to get his power, returns back in time. TEST OF THE TWINS is not exactly clear how long ago he replaced Fistandantillus. It could have been as much as a century I suppose before the Cataclysm.
THe real catch I see is this. WHen Raistlin and Crysannia attempted to enter the Abyss, this time they succeeded. FOr one, I think it would have been stupid to allow the Time Traveling Device to remain intact. Had I been Raistlin, not knowing for sure just what this GNome's device did, I would have destroyed it to make sure it did not threaten my plans.
I have theorizedt hat when Raistlin entered the Abyss that final time with Crysannia, he also did so to appear in the Abyss AFTER the War of the Lance, after he had already left for the age of Isthar. Any real interaction with himself and the Raistlin of that time would have been catastrophic for him, I imagine.
Anyway, when Raist suceeded in entering the Abyss....he still needed to somehow "deal" with the fact that the Raistlin that would exist in his own time. The only theory I can throw out is the Bill And Ted's Excellent Adventure Theory. Remember where they run into themselves from the future where they had already gathered a bunch of people before they had actually done it yet, and how Ted reminded himself to wind his watch? Well, in this case, Raistlin knows exactly when he would have to "contact" the Raistlin of the Future, knows that he has to help him during the Test, in Xax Taroth, and in Silvanesti and thus has it prepared before hand.
Food for thought, I guess.
Originally posted by Champ Masters
Then you have the whole Fistandantilus Reborn novel. In there, there are two "versions" of Fistandantilus which seem to contradict earlier information.
I just took those to be time-delayed clones. Seemed logical.
Edit:
Im thinking the author used clones on contingencies, even though it would require Fist to bypass the "only one active at a time" rule (but then again he is Fistandantilus), and then had the contingencies somehow mess each other up.
On Raistlin kills F.: how could he? It was in the past, and he is clearly a human, and thus unable to change the past (according to the specifications of the spell), and as far as I recall no kender, gnomes or anything else was involved. So would 'R kills F' be the original timeline?
Originally posted by Prof Spender
On Raistlin kills F.: how could he? It was in the past, and he is clearly a human, and thus unable to change the past (according to the specifications of the spell), and as far as I recall no kender, gnomes or anything else was involved. So would 'R kills F' be the original timeline?
Well no, but Raistlin took Fistandantilus' place in the timestream after absorbing him. Nothing was really changed by it (since Raistlin even wasn't in the original timeline).
I'm wondering if maybe some of the older info. regarding Fisty has been ruled non-canon?
And as for the Relics and Omens story, do we know if there really is a Fisty "clone" running around in the Age of Mortals?
;)
Originally posted by iltharanos
Perhaps Fistandantilus periodically "popping up" is merely the Krynnish version of Elvis. He's dead, we all know he's dead, it's just that every now and then you'll get some country yokel saying he saw the Dark One (Fisty) himself and how Fisty cursed his milking cow Mabel to only produce sour milk.
;)
Elvis is dead, dude.
Bruce Lee is still alive though
Fist put up a connection to Raist from the past before skull cap. he "put it out there" should he die. after skullcap, probably due to his ingenious necromancy. he lingered as a spirit with the other end of the connection spell attached to him. he connects to the wizard raist, whom he knows will grow quickly and will allow him to suck power from the past to his living self. Then comes the scene in the palanthas library where raist has been sucked to the point he is about to die. He then (through strength of will alone) reverses the trans-time power flow, using it to make him servive. If fist had been inside raist all the time instead of being contacted for certain things, he would have never allowed Raist to get to that point. Raist goes up in power takes control of the tower, learns the time spell and goes back to Fist, and in the course of the fight pickpockets the bloodstone (where the hell is that thing now? talk about an epic artifact) and uses it to absorb Fists' knowledge and power into himself. whatever happened to fist himself is unknown. he could be inside raist, he could be a powerless spirit...somewhere...
As far as Fistandantilus, he mentioned in KINGPRIEST TRILOGY VOlume 3 that he had covered everything. Including sending his spellbooks out with Cathan along with the Disks of Mishakall. With the specific intent that if he failed to open the POrtal, that he would return.
My theory has always been that Fistandantillus knew of other planes out there, and his power was great enough to shunt himself into another dimension, even when his body was destroyed, to prevent his final death.
The only errors I see is this: He was staking everything in KINGPRIEST TRILOGY that his spellbook would someday ensnare someone that he could use to get his foothold back in his world. I can see how his first spellbooks might have "a bit of him in it" to make that work.
But that would require the Spellbooks be found first before he can return. And Raistlin did not find his spellbooks untill long after he had taken his test. Which brinsg us to his "Entry into a different Plane" return technique.
However, I have to offer the following.
1) Fistandantillus knew EXACTLY what would happen in the next 100 years. He knew as the Cataclysm was approaching that the Cataclysm was indeed approaching. There was no "Wait what is all this.....why is all this stuff happening, why did all the True Clerics Disappear? Why are all these crazy omens happening". He knew exactly what was coming.
2) He beleived he knew that the Portal woudl be in Palanthus Tower of High Sorcery, I imagine he got a suprise to find it gone (like Raistlin Did).
3) Fistandantillus KNEW that Takhisis would return to Krynn because of the Cataclysm.
There are some more points to be made, but it leads me to this question....
What if Fistandantillus was not the original to do what he did either? What if Fistandantillus had also come back in time and replaced a Wizard in the exact same manner that Raistlin did?
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
What if Fistandantillus was not the original to do what he did either? What if Fistandantillus had also come back in time and replaced a Wizard in the exact same manner that Raistlin did?
Maybe at that point Fistandantillus WAS Raistlin
It is rather "MATRIX 2" like. Remember that part where the Architect of the System speaks and tells Neo how the situation he is in has been done 7 times already, where everything that he had done had been done before?
(I'm not sure which anthology of the 5th Age it was, but "another" short story hinted that Takhisis was still around, and we know how that turned out).
the mall only has the annotted chronicles...
Originally posted by Amryll
it was to go fist becomes raist becomes fist. when raist figured it out it went fist becomes raist becomes fist becomes raist, thus raist took fists place in history
Wtf does that mean?
There is a dragon frozen (by Fiz´s spell) in the skullcap in the old 1st editon campaing. Is that declared as outcannon in the 3 edition saga? Or is there an explanation how / where did that dragon get there at the time when no dragons were supposed to exist in Ansalon (stories told to children...). I´v allways had a hard time to explain this to my players.
But most importantly...it isnt that dragons dont exist on the world at this time, they are very much there. It is that for the most part they are in slumber of some kind or inactive...the whole point of the children's tales is that the tales were right...there are in fact dragons.
So...explain it to them as this. The dragons have existed upon Ansalon the entire time...its just that no one has reason to beleive they are there....it's much like the One Ring in LotR...so much time had passed since it had exposed itself to the world...so it passed into myth and legend.
Originally posted by Perkele
Little bit off the topic, but does anybody know aswer to this:
There is a dragon frozen (by Fiz´s spell) in the skullcap in the old 1st editon campaing. Is that declared as outcannon in the 3 edition saga? Or is there an explanation how / where did that dragon get there at the time when no dragons were supposed to exist in Ansalon (stories told to children...). I´v allways had a hard time to explain this to my players.
IT was a ShadowDragon named Whisper. The dragon was bound to gaurd Fistandantillus's treasures that he had put in SkullCap over the years. The Dragon did not want to be there. The Dragon in the sourcebook (this is the Silver Anniversary Edition of the WAR OF THE LANCE which had SAGA and 1st Edition stuff in it).
There was also a Bronze Dragon that had somehow gotten involved with the DwarfGate War's. I forget what it's name was.
Cheers,
Cam
I´v allways told my players that this must have been just an individual dragon that came from the deep caves of the Throbardin... And reminded them that he and all others who were there that day "died" and never got to tell any stories about this dragon to anyone.
Originally posted by Perkele
I meant that bronze dragon. Name was "Kizhant" or somenthing like that. He was a part of the assault force that attacked the tower of Zhaman. So he was fighting along with the Thorbardin forces. I understod that the dragon broke in through the Zhamans walls and was about to attack (bite) this goblin warrior that was defending the tower (goblin must have meen part of some "summon monster" spell, because there was no monstrous soldiers in the army of Fiztandantilus) and Fiz´"froze" him with a spell of somekind.
This is the dragon Blaize. The problem with this is that at the time DL3 was written, much of the history of Skullcap and Fistandantilus wasn't really sorted out yet, so Blaize's existence in the tower is a little anachronistic. Still, he's one of my favorite dragons in the modules, although I'm biased towards the "brown" good dragons.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
1) Fistandantillus chose Denubis over the Kingpriest to help him open the portal because the KingPriest was "too corrupted". Yet, I felt Crysannia was more flawed then the KingPriest was yet it opened for her.
Never underestimate the power of love...I think that's the moral.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
This is the dragon Blaize.
Also, I think we should give credit where credit is due. Blaize is a brass dragon, not a bronze dragon. Aside from the fact that the color of Blaize (on the cover) is obviously brass (when the choices are brass or bronze) but he is said to be a brass dragon in two of the three versions of the DL3 modules I have. He is brass in the DL3 mini-book (which is a small reprint of the original module), he is brass in the DLC1, which is a reprint of DL1-4, but he is bronze (I think) in 15th Anniversary Dragonlance Classics. But, just because there was a mistake in one...I don't understand why the fact that Blaize is brass and not bronze has gotten so burried. And why do I care so much? I don't know!
:D
Originally posted by Cam Banks
This is the dragon Blaize. The problem with this is that at the time DL3 was written, much of the history of Skullcap and Fistandantilus wasn't really sorted out yet, so Blaize's existence in the tower is a little anachronistic. Still, he's one of my favorite dragons in the modules, although I'm biased towards the "brown" good dragons.
Cheers,
Cam
Yes, Blaize was his name! Didnt have my DL module at hand at the time to check it out. I like him as NPC too, but not too many PC´s figure it out how to free him. And no spoilers here, please. Im about to DM it to my players soon. :D
Just out of wonder, did Fistandantillus make it public knowledget hat Zhaman was indeed his fortress and that he resided there? How did it survive the campaign against Magic launched by the Kingpriest? Was it under protection via the deal Fistandantilus made with the Kingpriest? It seems based on the location it had, that the Qualinest, Thorbardin, even Xax Tsaroth would not be happy with such a place on their doorstep, although I imagine once the Cataclysm hit, there was a lot more pressing issues on their minds.
Does the War of the Lance sourcebook address this problem?
We're told that Fistandantilus made a deal with Takhisis to avoid his soul from passing on to the next plane or wherever the dead go when they die. I do not think he knew that he was going to die at Zhaman (sp??), but he prepared for that eventualtity by making that deal. For all he knew he could have keeled over the day before the Cataclysm or died in during the Dwarfgate Wars like Raistlin almost did, and *poof* his soul would have still been protected by the deal he made with Takhsis. When he made the deal with her, I have no idea but I'm sure it was before he started his own quest to enter the Abyss to challenge her, otherwise she wouldn't have made it with him. It didn't really matter how he died the deal he made protected his soul so he could invade Raistlin's test and thus become one with him.
You took the words right out of my mouth! Although I don't know why Taky honored her deal when she found out that he was going to open the portal to the Abyss and challenge her. Then there's the question as to why she wasn't able to sneak out through portal that was opened when Raist was able to open it when Zahaman exploded? The portal wasn't destroyed was it?
Little bit off the topic, but does anybody know aswer to this:
There is a dragon frozen (by Fiz´s spell) in the skullcap in the old 1st editon campaing. Is that declared as outcannon in the 3 edition saga? Or is there an explanation how / where did that dragon get there at the time when no dragons were supposed to exist in Ansalon (stories told to children...). I´v allways had a hard time to explain this to my players.
Remember Tak had already returned to the world and had started awakining (sp) her dragons. This would havev caused some of the good dragons to start wakining too(not necessarily all of them, but some). This is kind of what happened in Land of the Minatours, a good dragon hadn't gone to "sleep" and so an evil dragon was allowed to stay up past it's bed time too.
--Fistandantilus was determined that, if he failed, he would come back NB
The way I view the Fistandantilus conundrum is as thus: Fistandantilus was a cagey ol' bastard who knew well that he might die in the event that his bid for godhood failed. Being the second-most-powerful Black Robe to have ever lived, Fistandantilus made certain he had several means with which to come back. He was consumed by Raistlin, his superior in the magical Arts, but this was not the end of him. Fistandantilus had clones, magically-formed copies of his mind and soul, and enchanted spellbooks imbued with pieces of his soul in them.
--Fistandantilus was determined that, if he failed, he would come back NB
I missed something. Since when did Fistandantilus have a clone let alone multiple clones???
Remember Tak had already returned to the world and had started awakining (sp) her dragons. This would havev caused some of the good dragons to start wakining too(not necessarily all of them, but some). This is kind of what happened in Land of the Minatours, a good dragon hadn't gone to "sleep" and so an evil dragon was allowed to stay up past it's bed time too.
Ok, this argument again. So if we go by the DLCS storyline, then Fistandantilus only went 40 years after the Cataclysm into the future and Berem did not remove the Gem untill 240 years after the cataclysm.
If we go off the history that the books entail, it is 100 years after the Cataclysm that Fistandantilus/Raistlin travel to; and it was just a few years after the Cataclysm that Berem did what he did.
Ok, this argument again. So if we go by the DLCS storyline, then Fistandantilus only went 40 years after the Cataclysm into the future and Berem did not remove the Gem untill 240 years after the cataclysm.
If we go off the history that the books entail, it is 100 years after the Cataclysm that Fistandantilus/Raistlin travel to; and it was just a few years after the Cataclysm that Berem did what he did.
Truthfully i like the "couple of years after the Cataclysm" point of view, but most of the stuff I have read points to a 100s thing. Berem was 325+ years old according to what he said. so there is no way he can have "freed" Tak with the first example. But that really doesn't have anything to do with what i was talking about.
My point still stands, tak may have been blocked by Berem's sister's sacrifice, but she still wakened the evil dragons before the good ones. Sooo, if she woke even one up, it is possible that a few (or more) good dragons woke up to so that the balance would be maintained. whether Tak did this 100s years after the Cat. or 2 years after the Cat. my point is the same.
I missed something. Since when did Fistandantilus have a clone let alone multiple clones???
In Fistandantilus Reborn. Like I already suggested. In this very thread even.
In Fistandantilus Reborn. Like I already suggested. In this very thread even.
Sorry I missed that post. Looked like an interesting book when I saw it on the shelves, but it didn't look good enough to pick up. Most likely a non-cannon book so it could say Fistandantilus was from Venus for it really matters.
Remember Tak had already returned to the world and had started awakining (sp) her dragons. This would havev caused some of the good dragons to start wakining too(not necessarily all of them, but some). This is kind of what happened in Land of the Minatours, a good dragon hadn't gone to "sleep" and so an evil dragon was allowed to stay up past it's bed time too.
Takhisis and Paladine were gods and could wake the dragons indivdually or all at once. In the WoS she summoned all the chromatic dragons to her and the metallics to the new moon, so just because she awoke the chromatic dragons doesn't mean any she had to awake any of the metallics. Just because she sent her avatar, or whatever you call it, to wake the chromatic dragons does not mean the metallics had to be awoken by that. The WotL Dragon Isles section covers this.
Sorry I missed that post. Looked like an interesting book when I saw it on the shelves, but it didn't look good enough to pick up. Most likely a non-cannon book so it could say Fistandantilus was from Venus for it really matters.
The book was actually a lot better than I first thought it would've been. As long as you don't except anything Krynn-shattering (or even any actual concrete Fistandantilus background), and just take it as the sidetrack of all sidetracks that it is, it's an enjoyable little adventure. :D
(And there's really only one inconsistency in the book. The battle between Raist and Fist that happens in the beginning takes place in the wrong place.)
Is it just me or with all of those clones doenst Fisty sound very much like the Emperor from Star Wars>
I was just thinking the very same thing. Were these clones "stored" in an area where magic could not be used/detected?