ToA POISONS
Beetle, Dragon-Contact, DC 12, initial and secondary damage 2d6 Con. *Only effective against dray and dragons.
Mulworm-Contact, DC 10, initial damage 2d6 Dex, secondary damage 1d6 Con.
Kivit-Ingested, DC 10, initial and secondary damage 1d3 Con.
Mulworm-Ingested, DC 12, initial damage 3d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con.
Fordorran-Inhaled, DC 16, initial damage 2d6 Dex, secondary damage 3d6 Dex.
Gaj-Inhaled, DC 16, initial damage 1d4 Con and nauseate for 1 round, secondary damage none.
Jalath’gak-Inhaled, DC 16, initial damage paralysis 2d6 rounds, secondary damage none.
Jalath’gak, Giant-Inhaled, DC 21, initial damage paralysis 3d6 rounds, secondary damage none.
Poisonweed-Inhaled, DC 21, initial and secondary damage unconsciousness 2d6 minutes.
Antloid, Soldier-Injury, DC 16, initial damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage none.
Bloodgrass-Injury, DC 13 (DC 19 for jungle variant), initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage paralysis for 2d6 rounds.
Blossomkiller-Injury, DC 17, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage unconsciousness for 2 to 20 minutes.
Boneclaw, Lesser-Injury, DC 10, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 1d6 Con.
Cactus, Hunting-Injury, DC 14, initial damage paralysis for 1 minute, secondary damage paralysis for 1d4+2 rounds.
Cactus, Spider-Injury, DC 12, initial damage paralysis for 2d4 rounds, no secondary damage.
Cha'thrang-Injury, DC 18, initial damage 1 Str, secondary damage 2d6 Str.
Cistern Fiend-Injury, DC 25, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage 2d6 Dex.
Drik, High-Injury, DC 18, initial damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage 1d6 Con.
Dune Freak-Injury, DC 14. Initial damage 1 point Str, secondary damage 1d6 Str.
Dust Glider-Injury, DC 13, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Str.
Floater-Injury, DC 13, initial damage paralysis for 2d6 minutes, secondary damage none.
Hej-Kin-Injury, DC 11, initial and secondary damage 1 Con.
Jankx-Injury, DC 11, initial damage 1d6 Str, secondary damage 2d6 Dex.
Kank, Soldier-Injury, DC 13, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Str.
Mastyrial, Black-Injury, DC 16, initial damage 2d6 Dex, secondary damage 1d6 Str.
Mastyrial, Desert-Injury, DC 18, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con.
Mulworm-Injury, DC 12, initial damage 3d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con.
Psionocus-Injury, DC 13, initial damage sleep for 1 minute plus drain power points, secondary damage sleep for another 5d6 minutes plus drain power points.
Puddingfish-Injury, DC 21, initial damage paralysis 1 minute, secondary damage paralysis 2d4 rounds.
Scorpion, Barbed-Injury, DC 17, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Con.
Scorpion, Gold-Injury, DC 12, initial damage 1d6 Str, secondary damage 1d4 Str.
Silt Horror, Black-Injury, DC 14, initial damage parlysis for 1 minute, secondary damage paralysis 1d6 rounds.
Silt Serpent-Injury, DC 10, initial damage 1d6 Str, secondary damage 1d6 Con.
Silt Serpent, Giant-Injury, DC 13, initial damage 2d4 Str, secondary damage 2d4 Con.
Spider, Crystal-Injury, DC 17, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con.
Spider, Dark Defiler-Injury, DC 13, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage none.
Spider, Dark Psion-Injury, DC 14, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage none.
Spider, Dark Queen-Injury, DC 19, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con.
Spider, Dark Warrior-Injury, DC 15, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage none.
Spider, Mountain-Injury, DC 15, initial and secondary damage paralysis for 2d12 minutes.
Spider, Silt-Injury, DC 13, initial and secondary damage paralysis for 2d6 minutes.
Thri-Kreen-Injury, DC 11, initial damage paralysis 2d6 minutes, secondary damage paralysis 2d6 minutes.
Trin-Injury, DC 13, initial and secondary damage paralysis 2d6 minutes.
Wall Walker-Injury, DC 14, initial damage paralysis 1d6 rounds, secondary damage none.
Wezer, Soldier-Injury, DC 13, initial damage unconsciousness for 1 minute, secondary damage unconsciousness for 2d4 days.
Zik-trin’ak-Injury, DC 17, initial and secondary damage paralysis for 2d6 minutes.
Zik-trin’ta-Injury, DC 15, initial damage paralysis for 2d6 minutes, secondary damage 2d6 Con.
Now if we consider that the average mekillot has a strength of 35 then it would have to do...well at least 10d6 initial damage, which seems a little unreasonable. Instead i would suggest that it does 2d6 or 2d8 initial dex damage.
However all of that becomes irrelivent as the average mekillot has a fort save of +17 and the poision save is 12, something that the average mekillot fails at least half the time would be necessary, 27 or higher would be a more appropriate DC. Anything less would make Rikus' run in with a gold scorpion in The Cerulean Storm insignificant, instead of life threatening.
Whatever it does, it needs to be a challenge for the presumably epic Rikus, who has I am sure, a fantastic fort save prior to taking on Rajaat.
.Under 2e, the gold scorpion's venom could inflict as much as 30 points of damage (SV at -3). A 2e mekillot had 11 HD, with an average of 49 hit points (max 88) so I'd say that the description in the novel is a little generous.
However, if you make the poison do Dex damage instead of Str damage, the gold scorpion can dish out as much as 10 points of Dex damage, which is enough to fell a mekillot, who only have Dex 10 to begin with. This actually might be a good idea and would capture the flavour of the novel at the same time - nice one
. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?As for the DC, however, that is limited by the gold scorpion's HD and Con score. The current 2HD scorpion would need a Con score of 42 to reach the total you suggest. Of course, you could make the gold scorpion 20HD, and then it would only need Con 24. The silliness of this should be readily apparent :D. Remember that mekillots and slap-head muls fail their saves too sometimes...
It would increase the DC by 2.
Btw., can you take this feat multiple times?
Originally posted by Kamelion
Well, as a vermin, the golden scorpion isn't strictly speaking allowed any feats -
Nitpicking: It's not allowed any feats or skills if it has no Int score, heh.
Well, as a vermin, the golden scorpion isn't strictly speaking allowed any feats
Right, I had forgotten this.
with Ability Focus (from MM)
... this one too...
I don't like the poison rules any way ... IMHO poisons shouldn't be based on HDs and/or Constitution.....but I guess that's just a another rule I've to deal with..
Good call on the feat and ability focus. For those of you who suggest that no intelligence means no feats I would agree, assuming that the feat is something to be learned. However, if it was an inate racial attribute I could see the validity in that argument.
Irrespective even without the feat giving it ability focus would mark the scorpion as far more deadly than its appearance would suggest (particularly in the eyes of the average person) which both fits its description in the prism pentad in particular, and the theme of life in Athas in general.
Hmm, I don't belive i have seen rules for 2ed gold scorpion poison before, what book is it found in? And where is the formula for building poison DC for creatures?
The description of the gold scoripon is on page 91 of DMC2.
2nd ed poisons don't have a formula, they are divided in classes (types?). Page 36 of DS1 for example has a table.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Nitpicking: It's not allowed any feats or skills if it has no Int score, heh.
:D It's not nitpicking, it's linguistic precision!
Originally posted by Jaedaken
Good call on the feat and ability focus. For those of you who suggest that no intelligence means no feats I would agree, assuming that the feat is something to be learned. However, if it was an inate racial attribute I could see the validity in that argument.
Most vermin are mindless, which is the cause of the skill/feat restriction, but bonus feats are a way around this - plenty of the vermin in ToA and in the MM have bonus feats of one kind or another, racial skill modifiers etc, all intended to capture non-Int related natural aptitudes. A straight racial modifier to the poison DC is also quite possible and avoids feats altogether.
Fort DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + CON-mod (MM p.15)
So in other words, there's no such thing as deadly poison in the worlds of D&D without the creature being monsterously huge. Sorry, there are times when you have to take logic over the rules. By that token, black widows, sea snakes, poison dart frogs, box jelly fish, or cone shells, couldn't be designed as actual D&D encoutners since all of these are fairly small creatures. Bleh.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
So in other words, there's no such thing as deadly poison in the worlds of D&D without the creature being monsterously huge. Sorry, there are times when you have to take logic over the rules. By that token, black widows, sea snakes, poison dart frogs, box jelly fish, or cone shells, couldn't be designed as actual D&D encoutners since all of these are fairly small creatures. Bleh.
Well, the system maintains verisimilitude at low levels but can't keep pace with PCs as they advance, so yes, you do need to buff your poison DCs to pose a threat to higher level characters.
At the bottom end of the scale, the average commoner Bob would rightly fear venomous critters, especially those known for their venom. At best, Bob can hope for a 50/50 chance of not getting stung. If the creature has a racial bonus, Ability Focus, Potent Venom and/or Con bonus, then he is in real trouble (and any of the venomous beasties you mention would qualify for a bonus or two imho). A Tiny, foot-long sea snake could have Con as high as 15, or a +2 racial bonus to its poison DC. Add just one of the feats and it's poison DC is 14, which will nail poor Bob almost 2/3 of the time. And with poison damage of 1d6/1d6 Con, Bob may well not live through the encounter without aid (much like in the real world).
Of course, higher level characters with decent Con scores and Fortitude saves laugh at such things, but they are hardly the stuff of reality. Although I did see this one guy once at the Miami Serpentarium who apparently had been bitten so many times that his system now required regular booster shots of venom or something like that. Kinda like Wheelock, actually, except without being a murderous psycho with a girly-issue. Well, as far as I could tell, anyhow...
Originally posted by Kamelion
Kinda like Wheelock, actually, except without being a murderous psycho with a girly-issue.
Hey HEy HEY!!!!
Don't be dissing poor Wheelock like that. I happen to like the murderous psycho in him.
:D
(2) The gold scorpion can have the ability
(Ex) Potent Venom
Extraordinary abilities are made for situations like these.
(1) I hope you will have sane prices for these poisons, unlike the ones in the DMG.
I am currently busy with prices for these (Craft DCs will have to wait a while longer, heh) and would welcome any feedback or input based on experience folks have had with pricing poisons. Gab posted a price calculator on his website here and I am currently working with that. It doesn't cover all the bases but it looks like a decent starting point
.(2) The gold scorpion can have the ability
(Ex) Potent Venom
Extraordinary abilities are made for situations like these.
Absolutely. A specific racial bonus or aptitude is always a good way around feat limitations.
When a skilled professional makes a couple of gold a week and herbs, poisonous reptiles, and mushrooms are easily available, poison isn't going to be too expensive. Hundreds or thousands of g.p a dose doesn't make anything close to sense.
You can get a scroll of wail of the banshee for cheeper than the price of some poisons in the DMG.
They obviously intended some game balancing mechanism. Legal consequences are a far better balance. Someone who is willing to sell you poison may also be welling to sell you out or set you up for an ambush.
Antloid, Archer Contact, DC 16, initial damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage none. 1056 cp
Beetle, Dragon Contact, DC 12, initial and secondary damage 2d6 Con. *Only effective against dray and dragons. 1584 cp
Mulworm Contact, DC 10, initial damage 2d6 Dex, secondary damage 1d6 Con. 770 cp
Kivit Ingested, DC 10, initial and secondary damage 1d3 Con. 270 cp
Mulworm Ingested, DC 12, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 1d6 Con. 648 cp
Tree of Death Fruit Ingested, DC 22, initial and secondary damage 4d6 Con. 4752 cp
Fordorran Inhaled, DC 16, initial damage 2d6 Dex, secondary damage 3d6 Dex. 1600 cp
Gaj Inhaled, DC 16, initial damage 1d4 Con and nauseate for 1 round, secondary damage none. 600 cp
Jalath’gak Inhaled, DC 16, initial damage paralysis 2d6 rounds, secondary damage none. 240 cp
Jalath’gak, Giant Inhaled, DC 21, initial damage paralysis 3d6 rounds, secondary damage none. 315 cp
Poisonweed Inhaled, DC 21, initial and secondary damage unconsciousness 2d6 minutes. 210 cp
Antloid, Infantry Injury, DC 16, initial damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage none. 1056 cp
Assassin Bug Injury, DC 10, initial and secondary damage 1d3 Dex. 220 cp
Blight Injury, DC 10, initial and secondary damage paralysis for 2d6 minutes. 330 cp
Bloodgrass (plains) Injury, DC 13, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage paralysis for 2d6 rounds. 500 cp
Bloodgrass (jungle) Injury, DC 19, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage paralysis for 2d6 rounds. 731 cp
Blossomkiller Injury, DC 17, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage unconsciousness for 2 to 20 minutes. 467 cp
Boneclaw, Lesser Injury, DC 10, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 1d6 Con. 660 cp
Cactus, Hunting Injury, DC 14, initial damage paralysis for 1 minute, secondary damage paralysis for 1d4+2 rounds. 462 cp
Cactus, Spider Injury, DC 12, initial damage paralysis for 2d4 rounds, no secondary damage. 198 cp
Cha'thrang Injury, DC 18, initial damage 1 Str, secondary damage 2d6 Str. 891 cp
Cistern Fiend Injury, DC 25, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage 2d6 Dex. 1650 cp
Drik, High Injury, DC 18, initial damage 2d6 Con, secondary damage 1d6 Con. 1782 cp
Dune Freak Injury, DC 14, Initial damage 1 point Str, secondary damage 1d6 Str. 385 cp
Dust Glider Injury, DC 13, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Str. 429 cp
Floater Injury, DC 13, initial damage paralysis for 2d6 minutes, secondary damage none. 215 cp
Golem, Chitin Injury, DC 15, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Str. 495 cp
Hej-Kin Injury, DC 11, initial and secondary damage 1 Con. 181 cp
Jankx Injury, DC 11, initial damage 1d6 Str, secondary damage 2d6 Dex. 726 cp
Kank, Soldier Injury, DC 13, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Str. 572 cp
Mastyrial, Black Injury, DC 16, initial damage 2d6 Dex, secondary damage 1d6 Str. 1056 cp
Mastyrial, Desert Injury, DC 18, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con. 1188 cp
Mulworm Injury, DC 12, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con. 792 cp
Psionocus Injury, DC 13, initial damage sleep 1 min plus drain PP, secondary damage sleep 5d6 min plus drain PP. 480 cp
Puddingfish Injury, DC 21, initial damage paralysis 1 minute, secondary damage paralysis 2d4 rounds. 693 cp
Pulp Bee Injury, DC 14, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Dex. 462 cp
Scarlet Warden Injury, DC 21, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con. 1386 cp
Scorpion, Barbed Injury, DC 17, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Con. 841 cp
Scorpion, Gold Injury, DC 12, initial damage 1d6 Str, secondary damage 1d4 Str. 462 cp
Silk Wyrm Injury, DC 18, initial damage 1d4 Str, secondary damage paralysis 1d4 days. 594 cp
Silt Horror, Black Injury, DC 14, initial damage paralysis for 1 minute, secondary damage paralysis 1d6 rounds. 462 cp
Silt Horror, Red Injury, DC 17, initial and secondary damage paralysis 2d6 rounds. 561 cp
Silt Serpent Injury, DC 10, initial damage 1d6 Str, secondary damage 1d6 Con. 550 cp
Silt Serpent, Giant Injury, DC 13, initial damage 2d4 Str, secondary damage 2d4 Con. 1072 cp
Silt Serpent, Giant (immature) Injury, DC 15, initial damage 2d4 Str, secondary damage 2d4 Con. 1237 cp
Spider, Crystal Injury, DC 17, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con. 1122 cp
Spider, Dark Defiler Injury, DC 13, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage none. 429 cp
Spider, Dark Psion Injury, DC 14, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage none. 462 cp
Spider, Dark Queen Injury, DC 19, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con. 1881 cp
Spider, Dark Warrior Injury, DC 15, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage none. 495 cp
Spider, Mountain Injury, DC 15, initial and secondary damage paralysis for 2d12 minutes. 742 cp
Spider, Silt Injury, DC 13, initial and secondary damage paralysis for 2d6 minutes. 643 cp
S'thag Zagath Injury, DC 21, initial damage 1d4 Dex, secondary damage paralysis for 1 minute. 693 cp
Thri-Kreen Injury, DC 11, initial damage paralysis 2d6 minutes, secondary damage paralysis 2d6 minutes. 544 cp
Trin Injury, DC 13, initial and secondary damage paralysis 2d6 minutes. 643 cp
Wall Walker Injury, DC 14, initial damage paralysis 1d6 rounds, secondary damage none. 346 cp
Wezer, Soldier Injury, DC 13, initial damage unconsciousness 1 min, secondary damage unconsciousness 2d4 days. 214 cp
Zik-trin’ak Injury, DC 17, initial and secondary damage paralysis for 2d6 minutes. 841 cp
Zik-trin’ta Injury, DC 15, initial damage paralysis for 2d6 minutes, secondary damage 2d6 Con. 1361 cp
The game designers just forgot to write it into the rules because it was such a minute detail of mekillot physiology :P
Kam, what about changing that gold scorpion Str damage to Dex?
It's a possibility - what are everyone's thoughts on this? Personally, I am reluctant as the only reason seems to be the mekillot reference fromCerulean Storm. This reference was actually incorrect under 2e rules (as I mentioned above) and I treat rules sources as primary sources when doing conversions. It also has direct effect upon the Tyrian Conspiracy adventure as, iirc, gold scorpion venom is used as a lethal poison by the assassin in that adventure. Still, if there is genuinely enough interest from the community in having it be a Dex poison, I will have another look...
Still, if there is genuinely enough interest from the community in having it be a Dex poison, I will have another look...
I'm interested.
(although not strictly to have it do dex dmg, but to have it be more deadly/potent)