Rajaat is credited with having ‘invented’ magic, where none existed before.
WRONG. Magic did exist, he just DISOVERED it. I’ll give you a real-life example of what I’m talking about. Sir Isaac Newton did not INVENT gravity, but he did discover it, and conducted some pretty empirical experiments (for the day) on the concept. In short, he discovered something ‘new’ that had always existed, studied it, labeled it, taught it to others, and laid the foundations for many of the things we take for granted today about physics.
Now back to Rajaat. He discovered magic, pioneered it, in many ways he’s a magical Sir Isaac Newton / Albert Einstein / Pythagoras (sp?). Made an incredible discovery. Undoubtedly a genius. Laid a great foundation for others to follow…
And at this point, something occurred to me. What about the others that followed? Often the greatest minds make the discoveries, but those discoveries are taken to new heights by other great (but not as great) minds by further study and advancement. So, what do you need to research? A lab. Does Rajaat have that in the hollow? Unsure. But the SK’s DO HAVE THEM and they ARE actively involved in Research (at least Nibenay is). Ok, so it got me thinking – for thousands of years, the SK’s have had access to Rajaats research (after they stole it from him), time and their own research labs. They have great minds; we know that because that’s why they were selected to become champions.
In the time Rajaat has been ‘away’, I have come to a conclusion that some of them may have surpassed Rajaat in understanding and power. I’ve come to that conclusion because even if Sir Isaac Newton came back, or Einstein came back, and had been ‘watching’ from somewhere, but unable to actually research, although they are brilliant, no doubt, and pioneered their fields (which is what Rajaat did) they are still the originators, and not the current ‘instigators’ of the latest and greatest things in science / magic.
Now, before you all shoot me down, I want to make the following points:
1. Above contradicts cannon, I am aware of that, just merely postulating to promote discussion and thought on the matter.
2. If you had to chose a SK who had built on Rajaats research the most, and overtaken him, who would it be and why?
3. How quickly could Rajaat reclaim his glory, if my theory replaced cannon? (and no, I’m not suggesting it should)
4. There is another D&D example of this type of thing: Raistlin, killing a god of magic. Again, building on what others had done before, surpassing their achievements (if not their intellect, and yes, other factors were involved)
Thoughts?
This depends. Reagrding magic, I would say Dregoth. Nibenay would be a good second. Regarding psi, possibly Daskinor, but I think I'm the only one who has wild little crazy person daskinor theories in my head. Overall, I think Hamanu has become more than a match for Rajaat, but it skirts the initial question/set-up you posed (when you get right down to it, but also depending on what you accept as canon, Hamanu was the one who finally got rid of rajaat for good, in the chronicles of rofadik of the hill people)
3.
I'll admit to thinking that Rajaat is crazy insane smart. I think regarding magical awareness he would see something, all but instantly understand how it came about/was developed/what the principles behind it were, and then improve it himself. If one goes with the Dregoth pioneered the dragon metamorphosis line of thinking, it's a prime example: Rajaat snagged this gem from his boy, improved it like crazy and applied it to Hamanu, who is at the top of the food chain when all's said and done regarding end-result dragon metamorphoses. So, to answer the question, not very long at all. Magic is not how to beat Rajaat. Rajaat is not one of those problems you wanna approach with fine-tuned plans with lots of small parts that do wondrous things but have lots of moving parts that could go wrong, you wanna approach him with huge monolithic instruments whose function cannot be subverted.
nick
Originally posted by Jaanos
In the time Rajaat has been ‘away’, I have come to a conclusion that some of them may have surpassed Rajaat in understanding and power. I’ve come to that conclusion because even if Sir Isaac Newton came back, or Einstein came back, and had been ‘watching’ from somewhere, but unable to actually research, although they are brilliant, no doubt, and pioneered their fields (which is what Rajaat did) they are still the originators, and not the current ‘instigators’ of the latest and greatest things in science / magic.
You're forgetting a very important part, the timeline:
King's Age (-8,393)
-Silt's Agitation
Rajaat arrives at the base of the Jagged Cliffs where he conduits experiments with the powers of life for the next 200 years.
84th King's Age (-8,162)
-King's Defiance
After nearly two centuries of experiments Rajaat discovers the basics of magic, but is nearly killed in the process. After recovering he leaves the Jagged Cliffs and travels to the Pristine Tower to refine the magic process, creating defiling and preserving magic. The Time of Magic begins.
125th King's Age (-5,005)
-Guthay's Reverence
After three eons of study, Rajaat emerges from the Pristine Tower to teach magic to the Rebirth races. He teaches preserving magic openly, and defiling magic in secret to those of "questionable" character. For the next 1,500 years Rajaat studies how magic interacts with the Rebirth races, and decides that humans have the most potential of all to suit his needs.
134th King's Age (-4,312)
-King's Agitation
Rajaat begins a jihad against the preservers of Athas for the next thousand years. Preservers across the land go into hiding while fighting a losing battle against the followers of Rajaat.
144th King's Age (-3,542)
-Priest's Contemplation
Rajaat sends all but a few of his students away. Using the power of the Pristine Tower and the mysterious Dark Lens Rajaat creates his Champions. Each Champion is ordered to eliminate one specific race from the face of Athas in an effort to bring about the return of the Blue Age. The Cleansing Wars begin.
Rajaat has about 4,851 years on the Champions at this point, who are barely wet behind the ears.
164th King's Age (-2,002)
-Friend's Contemplation
Hamanu, replaced 4th Champion of Rajaat, kills Windreaver-the last troll of Athas and king of his people.
-Desert Vengeance
Rkard, the last dwarven king of Kemalok, is slain by Borys of Ebe in mortal combat-though Borys himself is gravely injured. The Champion's attendants spirit him from the battlefield leaving his sword, the Scourge, still buried in the dwarf's chest. Before he can retrieve the sword, Hamanu tells Borys of Rajaat's true plans for Athas
Becoming aware that Rajaat intends to wipe out all races except the halflings, Borys leads the Champions in a rebellion against their master-from which they emerged victorious. Rajaat's halfling servants are banished to the Black as punishment for siding with the War-Bringer
Despite their power, the children of Rajaat cannot destroy his mortal remains. Instead, Gallard separates the First Sorcerer's essence from his physical form, placing each in a separate location. Aided by the power of the Dark Lens, Gallard creates the Hollow, where he placed Rajaat's essence. Gallard then creates a cyst of enchanted stone called the Black Sphere in which he places Rajaat's substance. He then hides the Black Sphere in a location known only to him and Borys of Ebe.
Sacha and Wyan, who remained loyal to their master, attempted to breach the cyst before it is hidden away. Their plan is discovered and they are beheaded by Borys.
Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells.
The Champions realize that Rajaat's prison will not hold. Even segmented, Rajaat's power is supreme and he would one day be free. Hence, the Champions once again used the Dark Lens to transform Borys into the Dragon, whose power would keep Rajaat imprisoned for all time.
Borys's transformation causes him to become temporarily insane, beginning a century of rampages across the land. In the confusion, two dwarven knights named Jor'orsh and Sa'ram steal the Dark Lens. The remaining sorcerer-kings each claim a city of Athas and barricade it from the rampaging Dragon.
-Friend's Fury
Lead by Abalach-Re of Raam, the sorcerer-kings storm Guistenal and kill Dregoth, Ravager of Giants just before he is to become a 30th-level Dragon. The battle destroys the city, the land, and most of its population. Afterwards, Hamanu throws the Scorcher into the Silt Sea.
With the aid of his high templar Mon Adderath, Dregoth is returned to life as an undead dragon king. The surviving populace is gathered soon after, and construction of New Guistenal begins.
At this point Rajaat has an additional 1,540 years on the Champions who have been merely growing in power little by little as they take out their designated races, with the exception of Dregoth, while Rajaat has been doing reserach, trying to break through the grey to get to the outer planes etc.
So far, I have a hard time believing that any of the SMs, with the exception of Dregoth, could come anywhere close to the potential he has already obtained.
190th King's Age
-Friend's Vengeance
A templar of Urik removes the golden circlet from the head of the Obsidian Man, which animates and kills him. The artifact is later traced through the streets of Urik, but disappears into the desert.
-Desert's Slumber
After years of investigation into the death of Nerad, a preserver/psionicist named Korgunard learns of Oronis of Kurn. Though reluctant to have another death on his hands, Oronis gives him the preserver metamorphosis spell-but does not allow him to retain a copy.
-Priest's Defiance (Free Year 1)
King Kalak of Tyr is slain by the Heartwood Spear through the combined efforts of Rikus, Agis, Neeva, Tithian, and Sadira. Tithian becomes the next king of Tyr and frees all slaves. Tyr adopts the Free Year calendar.
-Wind's Reverence (Free Year 2)
Hamanu of Urik send his army to capture the iron mines of Tyr from the upstart king. In response Rikus forms the Crimson Legion and defeats the approaching army while wielding the Scourge of Rkard and the Belt of Kings. Afterwards Rikus takes the Crimson Legion to sack Urik in search of the Book of Kemalok Kings, but is defeated by Hamanu himself. The Crimson Legion is destroyed, though a few survived. Rikus returns the Belt of Kings to Kled, but is told to keep the Scourge.
King Andropinis pays an extra 1,000 slaves to make up for Tyr's share of the levy.
Aided by the Veiled Alliance of Urik, Korgunard becomes Athas's third avangion.
-Dragon's Agitation (Free Year 3)
In an effort to protect Tyr from the Dragon, Sadira seeks out the Pristine Tower and its ancient magic. In return for her pledge to slay the Borys of Ebe the shadow giants of the Pristine Tower transform her into the Sun Wizard, giving her power akin to that of a sorcerer-king.
Avoiding Tyr, the Dragon attempts to take his yearly levy from the dwarven city of Kled. In the end he is driven off by Sadira and Rikus bearing his old sword the Scourge. During the battle Neeva gives birth to her mul son Rkard, named for the dwarven king who battled Borys 2,000 year ago.
For the next several years King Tithian of Tyr secretly supplies the Dragon with a levy of 1,000 slaves captured from outlying villages.
-Mountain's Fury (Free Year 4)
The ancient artifact the Psionatrix is activated by the Order, a powerful organization of psionic purists, nullifying psionics across The avangion Korgunard is slain while trying to convince members of the Order to deactivate the Psionatrix. One of the members, a halfling named Pakk, consumes the avangion's remains. Deep within the recesses of the Dragon's Crown, the Psionatrix is deactivated and several members of the Order are slain. The remains of the artifact mysteriously disappear.
-Silt's Vengeance (Free Year 6)
Lead by Queen Trinth, the Githyanki of the Astral Plane discover a way to safely breaches the Gray and invaded Athas from the Black Spine mountains. The githyanki's plans are foiled by a group of heroes that travel through the portal and kill the queen. With Trinth dead, the portal collapses.
-Enemy's Slumber (Free Year 7)
The comet known as the Messenger fails to appear at the prescribe time, and many across the Tablelands take it as a sign of a forthcoming doom.
-Ral's Reverence (Free Year 9)
Armed with information stolen from the dwarves of Kled, Tithian learns of the location of the hidden Dark Lens-with which he can become a sorcerer-king. Agis of Asticles catches up with him and reluctantly aids him in his quest. After the pair retrieve the Dark Lens, Tithian kills Agis.
-Friend's Agitation (Free Year 10)
Dregoth returns to New Guistenal from the Outer Planes with aspirations of becoming a god. Unsure of the condition of Athas he sends his templars to the surface to learn the state of the Tyr region, learning too late the events that lead to the death of several fellow Champions.
Albech-Re is killed on the Ivory Plain. The sorcerer-queen's body is completely consumed by a black ooze leaking from the broken tip. Rikus of Tyr breaks the Scourge of Rkard a second time, this time in the snout of the Dragon. The sword again issues forth a black ichor that completely consumes Borys of Ebe.
Tithian uses the Dark Lens to free Rajaat's substance from the Black Sphere, causing his essence to also be released from the Hollow. After 2,000 years of imprisonment the First Sorcerer is once again free. The result of escaping his prison destroys much of Ur Draxa in a grand explosion.
In the ruins of Ur Draxa Rajaat battles his former Champions. Rajaat imprisons Andropinis of Balic in the Black, then grabs the Dark Lens from Tectuktitlay of Draj and crushes the sorcerer-king's skull. The remaining Champions scatter while Sadira steals the Dark Lens and heads for the Ring of Fire.
Sadira of Tyr discovers that the key to Rajaat's defeat is his shadow, which gives him substance. Using the Dark Lens, the young Rkard casts a sun spell it magnifying its power ten-fold. The resulting brilliance obliterates Rajaat's shadow and sends his essence back to the Hollow, while his body is boiled away by the heat of the spell.
Having been in contact with the Dark Lens as Rkard cast his spell, Tithian becomes mystically connected to the Black and Rajaat's elemental nature. The result is Tithian becoming the Cerulean Storm. Sadira tosses the Dark Lens and the Scourge into the Ring of Fire, placing powerful wards around it so that no one can obtain the artifact and once again free the First Sorcerer.
As Rkard's spell lights up the sky, a great earthquake rocks the Tyr Region. The full force of the quake is centered west of the Tablelands beyond the Ringing Mountains. The resulting quake creates the Great Rift, a passage leading to the Crimson Savannah of the Kreen Empire.
-Desert's Fury (Free Year 11)
The Wanderer discovers the lost halflings, the rhul-thraun, of the Jagged Cliff.
-Priest's Contemplation (Free Year 12)
After leaving the Jagged Cliffs, the Wanderer travels north and learns of the Last Sea. There he discovers the bizarre land of the Mind Lords.
The Coruscation begins, the Day of Light prophesied by the dray when the blood of a thousand unbelievers runs in rivers at the feet of Dregoth. This sign is to bring about the coming of a new age where Dregoth is supreme.
At this point, the current SMs have had a mere 1,945 years, give or take, to research things on their own and gain more power. Meanwhile Rajaat has been doing the same thing in his prison, The Hollow, though probably more contemplating things, and making outside alliances than actual lab experiments.
Even if Rajaat is held in limbo in the Hollow and not able to do this, he still has a good 6,391 years compared to the SMs mere 3,485 years.
Sorry, can't buy it.
2. If you had to chose a SK who had built on Rajaats research the most, and overtaken him, who would it be and why?
Dregoth, you'll see why I think this once DA is released. Dregoth doesn't play nice, at all, and Athas gets dealt a pretty bad blow.
3. How quickly could Rajaat reclaim his glory, if my theory replaced cannon? (and no, I’m not suggesting it should)
Since your theory stomps all over canon and buries it, it's hard to take this seriously. However, I would say no more than a few hundred years going by your theory. that's probably being too harsh too. Hard to judge something as intelligent as Rajaat on any sort of level.
That's what progress is all about, building on the discoveries of your predecessors, increased specialisation. Now, i think that after the SK's imprisoned Rajaat, i'd wager that Boyrs and Dregoth would have taken first 'dibs' on Rajaats research notes, and the rest split amongst the sk's according to interests.
So basically, i think the points you raise about the sheer volume of years are very good. What we don't know is:
* How long it actually took Rajaat to go from discovering that you could tap life force to developing the first spell
* How long it took him to develop each BASIC magic concept.
I mean, we're talking about a guy that has to define the BASIC principles of conjuration / necromancy etc. Much like first pioneers establishing the basic funadmentals of physics, chemistry, or biology. It's those break-throughs that take the longest, but mean the most. So, it's not like Rajaat initially went from noticing that life had a spark, it could be tapped to Magic Missle at 1st level. To get to that point (casting magic missile) so many things had to be figured out - now how much time those things took, is anyones guess.
No doubt Rajaat is one of (if not THE) greatest magical mind, but like all progress, students surpass the teachers in good time. Modern sciences are a classic example of brilliant minds doing the 'hard yards' (developing the key underpinings) and then great minds (arguably not as brilliant) creating, refining key concepts that put them 'ahead' of thier predessors in terms of contributions to the application of the field or further specilised research.
Myself personally.... i think Boyrs and Dregoth are leaders... Nibenay could be the dark horse in the pack. As for Kalak and Oronis, they are intriguing for seperate reasons.
Originally posted by Jaanos
Good points Nyt, and nice use of the time-line. Don't disagree with the sheer amount of time, nor the possibility of Rajaat trying to form outside alliances, but i suppose what i was driving at is that the SK's will get the benifit (if somewhat defused) of Rajaats previous research - all those thousands of years.
I would argue that it is more than just somewhat. If anything Dregoth has the upper hand when it comes to all the SMs and only allowed the others a sneak peek with allowing Borys to be the guinea pig.
That's if you follow that conjecture.
Myself personally.... i think Boyrs and Dregoth are leaders... Nibenay could be the dark horse in the pack. As for Kalak and Oronis, they are intriguing for seperate reasons.
Dregoth is the king of the mountain IMO, under Rajaat of course.
Borys was more or less just a fool that let himself become a guinea pig.
I would agree that good ol Nib is probably the next in line, with Hammanu barely a breath behind him, just with differing powers (Nib being wizard/psi extraordinare, while good ol Manu is Mr. Slice and Dice and Bash and Smash).
Kalak is a fool without a clue, and Oronis I would say is somewhere in the middle, only because it takes awhile to get rid of as many dark side points as he had accumulated, heh.
WRONG. Magic did exist, he just DISOVERED it. I’ll give you a real-life example of what I’m talking about. Sir Isaac Newton did not INVENT gravity, but he did discover it, and conducted some pretty empirical experiments (for the day) on the concept. In short, he discovered something ‘new’ that had always existed, studied it, labeled it, taught it to others, and laid the foundations for many of the things we take for granted today about physics.
Is aimed at me, so I'll respond. Here goes: on most worlds, you cast a spell by calling on energy, going through a little song and dance (somatic, verbal) and maybe tossing a little trinket to complete the formula. In short, in D&D, magic is a "natural" part of the world that magicians are able to tap into.
On Athas, this is not the case - the only place where energy comes from is from living things. You have to "go vampire" just to power spells. Sorry, guy, but I'm not buying that that's a "natural" event.
Using your analogy, that would be like Newton creating quantom teleportation by sacrificing kittens. Not quite the same thing as discovering gravity, eh?
Now if this were the realms, and I had claimed that Elminster had created magic where it shouldn't have existed, you'd have a valid point and would be perfectly within your right to kick me in the junk. Point of fact is that it's my opinion. Deal.
On to the next point. Nyt:
Dregoth, you'll see why I think this once DA is released. Dregoth doesn't play nice, at all, and Athas gets dealt a pretty bad blow.
I agree that out of the known dragons, Dregoth is the one that is likely far more advanced than any of the others, maybe even Borys when he lived. Think about it, Borys spent the last 1500 years or so worrying about Rajaat and trying to keep him imprisoned. Dregoth had no such worry and could just research, research, research. With no checks (read: other SKs thought he was dead) in place, he was free to send envoys out to seek more knowledge, like that inverted pyramid of Rajaat's at the base of the Jagged Cliffs.
I like Nib, too, Mach, but I got to go with Nyt on this one. Nib's, at most, a 24th level dragon. Dregoth's 29th. Also, Nib's been dealing with Lalalai Puy for the last 2,000 years or so, on top of trying to figure out how to not go insane when he "levels up."
Using your analogy, that would be like Newton creating quantom teleportation by sacrificing kittens. Not quite the same thing as discovering gravity, eh?
Thats just plain twisted
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Using your analogy, that would be like Newton creating quantom teleportation by sacrificing kittens. Not quite the same thing as discovering gravity, eh?
Everytime , god kills a kitten....
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I've used Nibenay more than any other SK in my games, so I'm a bit biased to think that he is the most magically knowledgeable of all the SKs. I doubt he can match Dregoth in sheer power, but I rather see him as an astute master of all forms of the arcane research bar none, perhaps even being the root for such alternative casters as shadow wizards, cerruleans, and necromancers.
When it comes to comparing these two, I tend to think Nibenay leans more towards the magical, while Dregoth works on combining both. I also tend to think that Dregoth's been around longer than Nibenay. However, I've also worked off the diea that Nibenay has spent a lot of his time studying the Black (and is the Shadow King in more than just name possibly), while Dregoth, well, he's been busy accumilating power.
When it comes to comparing these two, I tend to think Nibenay leans more towards the magical, while Dregoth works on combining both. I also tend to think that Dregoth's been around longer than Nibenay. However, I've also worked off the diea that Nibenay has spent a lot of his time studying the Black (and is the Shadow King in more than just name possibly), while Dregoth, well, he's been busy accumilating power.
Nib's is one of favorite SK's as well. Never really thought that he had any real connections to the Black though. Just figured he was the Shadow King due to his reclusive nature and his network of spies.
I've had Andropinis return from his banishment from the Black and now make that his province of expertise. His title is now the Lord of Shades or the Shade Lord in my campaign.
Originally posted by Sysane
I've had Andropinis return from his banishment from the Black and now make that his province of expertise. His title is now the Lord of Shades or the Shade Lord in my campaign.
How did you make him get back from there, and after how long?
How did you make him get back from there, and after how long?
I had it that he was only trapped there for about 10 yrss. I had him working with his templars who he still maintained contact with even thru the Black.
A ritual was conducted in which his templars captured the leader of Balic's VA (Can't remember his name. He was a thief though). The ritual was to banish the VA's leader to the Black effectively taking Andro's place there and allowing him to return to Athas. However the ritual was tampered with though by one of Dregoths spies (fearing the return of another SK). Now Andro can only be on Athas during the night. Once the sun appears he is banished back to the Black and replaced by the VA's leader during the day. Sort of a Lady Hawk thing.
Would killing the leader of the VA trap Andropinis back in the Black? It definetly would give him something to look out for. Or pehaps the Templars keep him secured until Andropinis come back at night? Interesting twist...
Thats what I have Andro and his Templar's thinking. They are unsure of the consequences in killing him (I wish I could remember his name!). So better to be trapped in the Black half of the time as opposed to all of the time.
The VA's leader also has a link with Andro and has some control over him granting spells to his templars. When Andro is trapped in the Black the VA's leader can grant spells (or take them away) during the day light hours. This is casued by their now shared link to the SKs Vorceties (a side effect).
Due to this, there is now a small, and growing, group of VA loyal templars in Balic in my campaign.
Beleive me, Andropinis is not happy. He's working diligently to find away to sever his link with him and still stay on Athas.
I agree with you that magic is in inate force in the rest of the d&d universe.
However, Rajaat didnot invent life-force. That, like gravity in the real world, existed before he discovered it. Not only did he discover it, he also learnt how to tap it to affect the environment around him, thus creating magic. The differnce is subtle, but essentially Rajaat created a process that didn't exist before. He didn't create something that wasn't there. He created a process to use an existing force in new and alien ways. Quite creative really. Some more food for thought... creatures with inate magical abilites... on other d&d worlds i'd consider it a natural part of the ecosystem, much like photosynthesis, but on athas.... ???
Not disagreeing that using the force is not 'natural' but the force underneath it (magic) is (INMHO). BTW, loved your analogies!
Sorry about the screwy post(s) last night - my net connection was really, really weird.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I believe this statement:
Is aimed at me, so I'll respond. Here goes: on most worlds, you cast a spell by calling on energy, going through a little song and dance (somatic, verbal) and maybe tossing a little trinket to complete the formula. In short, in D&D, magic is a "natural" part of the world that magicians are able to tap into.
On Athas, this is not the case - the only place where energy comes from is from living things. You have to "go vampire" just to power spells. Sorry, guy, but I'm not buying that that's a "natural" event.
Using your analogy, that would be like Newton creating quantom teleportation by sacrificing kittens. Not quite the same thing as discovering gravity, eh?
Now if this were the realms, and I had claimed that Elminster had created magic where it shouldn't have existed, you'd have a valid point and would be perfectly within your right to kick me in the junk. Point of fact is that it's my opinion. Deal.
On to the next point. Nyt:
Can't delete, but i did edit and add what i had originally intended to.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
That's a great point, Jaanos: I agree with everything you just quoted. :P
If I'm a bit short in my responses, it's because, over the last years, there are a few topics that have just been debated into the ground, beneath it, and then out the other side (and then into space, onto another planet, into that planet's ground, and so on). I've just lost all will to debate these same topics.
Do what works in your campaign, even if it involves giant space hamsters riding in on Rhul Thaun Lifeships.
Rajaat is credited with having ‘invented’ magic, where none existed before.
WRONG. Magic did exist, he just DISOVERED it. I’ll give you a real-life example of what I’m talking about. Sir Isaac Newton did not INVENT gravity, but he did discover it, and conducted some pretty empirical experiments (for the day) on the concept. In short, he discovered something ‘new’ that had always existed, studied it, labeled it, taught it to others, and laid the foundations for many of the things we take for granted today about physics.
I'd say that the energy used in magic was always around, but the method of using this energy (magic) was invented by Rajaat.
I'd say that the energy used in magic was always around, but the method of using this energy (magic) was invented by Rajaat.
I have to agree with that as well.
It took the combined strength of the Sorcerer Kings to imprison him in the first place.
Hardly overrated.
I'd say that the energy used in magic was always around, but the method of using this energy (magic) was invented by Rajaat.
.... I'd say it was invented by the Rhulisti(I know it is not considered as magic neither do I want it to.) and corrupted by rajaat--faster result but on the expense of the defiling of the land.(preserver or defiler, it is still defiling magic what ever the amount of life-energy taken to empower the spell)
And although it does not make the unanimety, I name ''it'', Mindë.
I like to make a reminder of it once in a while
---the rhulisti were not masters for not,.
They just made a terrible mistake.
I'd say that the energy used in magic was always around, but the method of using this energy (magic) was invented by Rajaat.
Yep, gotta agree with this.
But not sure what you are saying Jihun, do you mean that life-shaping was the original and magic is just a less efficient version? (since it makes the life-energy it uses sterile and inert)
What makes life shaping appear to be the precursor of magic? it seems as different as chalk or cheese (or templar and elf to use a dark sun analogy)
If this has been covered elsewhere just say so and ill do a search on the forums when it comes back - rather than having you waste time repeating yourself :D
But not sure what you are saying Jihun, do you mean that life-shaping was the original and magic is just a less efficient version? (since it makes the life-energy it uses sterile and inert)
Maybe he is saying that they both use the same energy source but in different ways. I don't think he meant magic was a less efficient form, just a different form.
Maybe he is saying that they both use the same energy source but in different ways. I don't think he meant magic was a less efficient form, just a different form.
If so, then he's confusing the energy source with the method of using it.... kinda like confusing Gasoline (Petrol) with Plastics. Both were invented, both come from Crude Oil, but they are hardly the same thing. And stating that someone invented plastic doesn't mean that person invented Crude Oil.
If so, then he's confusing the energy source with the method of using it.... kinda like confusing Gasoline (Petrol) with Plastics. Both were invented, both come from Crude Oil, but they are hardly the same thing. .
What I ment by this is that both are using life-energy to acheive their goal. So, although the rhulisti didn't invent magic, they were using the same ''element'' for Ritualistic life-shaping. If it wasn't for them, Rajaat would have never discovered diffiling magic by accident.
To me defiling magic is a much much more faster mean of manipulating the SAME ''element'' (magic has a tendency of procuring instant results) without the hard-work-time-consuming ritualistic art. Like i said, even preservers are defiling--they just dont ''kill'' life around them.--
In your example above, Crude oil would be the base element in wich the Rhulisti would have found a way to change ''it'' into plastic to create many thing. Rajaat would have found a way to greatly enhence that element without being able to do what the Rhulisti could but somehow(accidentaly) he found a better way to produce the same result--better because the result is much faster.
And stating that someone invented plastic doesn't mean that person invented Crude Oil
But without oil, there wouldn't be any of plastic or gaz. That someone didn't created crude oil to start with. It was already a natural part of the world as I beleive life-energy is to Athas so....
I also beleive that Rajaat didn't realy invented magic out of nowhere. I mean with out life-energy, there wouldn't be magic nor life-shaped. He just discovered a better way to use that existing energy and called it magic.But the true discoverers were the Rhulisti. They just used it in a different way. Who's to say that they didn't knew--in their own history,eons before the first Master-benders--- how to defile, but being what they were(they greatly respected life) the Rhulisti chose not to develope that side of art(later rediscovered by Rajaat)
Anyway, all I'm saying is that both arts come from the same ''element'' (DNA of Life itself on Athas) and that without the Rhulisti, Rajaat would have never discovered magic: since it is by studying the rhulisti art that he found magicby accident.
Rajaat would have found a way to greatly enhence that element without being able to do what the Rhulisti could but somehow(accidentaly) he found a better way to produce the same result--better because the result is much faster.
I don't know if I would say Rajaat came up with a "better" method Jihun. I would say that he came up with a "different" method because Lifeshaping and Magic do not work towards the same goal. Therefore the speed at which one achieves a desired result is irrelevant, the results are different.
What I ment by this is that both are using life-energy to acheive their goal. So, although the rhulisti didn't invent magic, they were using the same ''element'' for Ritualistic life-shaping. If it wasn't for them, Rajaat would have never discovered diffiling magic by accident.
To me defiling magic is a much much more faster mean of manipulating the SAME ''element'' (magic has a tendency of procuring instant results) without the hard-work-time-consuming ritualistic art. Like i said, even preservers are defiling--they just dont ''kill'' life around them.--
In your example above, Crude oil would be the base element in wich the Rhulisti would have found a way to change ''it'' into plastic to create many thing. Rajaat would have found a way to greatly enhence that element without being able to do what the Rhulisti could but somehow(accidentaly) he found a better way to produce the same result--better because the result is much faster.
But without oil, there wouldn't be any of plastic or gaz. That someone didn't created crude oil to start with. It was already a natural part of the world as I beleive life-energy is to Athas so....
I also beleive that Rajaat didn't realy invented magic out of nowhere. I mean with out life-energy, there wouldn't be magic nor life-shaped. He just discovered a better way to use that existing energy and called it magic.But the true discoverers were the Rhulisti. They just used it in a different way. Who's to say that they didn't knew--in their own history,eons before the first Master-benders--- how to defile, but being what they were(they greatly respected life) the Rhulisti chose not to develope that side of art(later rediscovered by Rajaat)
Anyway, all I'm saying is that both arts come from the same ''element'' (DNA of Life itself on Athas) and that without the Rhulisti, Rajaat would have never discovered magic: since it is by studying the rhulisti art that he found magicby accident.
You missed the point of my statement there. Yes, I agree 100% completely with what you said. However, the analogy I gave showed why it's important to keep the terminology correct. You can't say that the Rhulisti invented magic. You also can't say that Rajaat didn't invent magic - especially off of a concept that life-energy was always around, so Rajaat didn't invent magic. Those are both flawed arguments. The correct statement is Rajaat didn't invent life-energy (which honestly, would be kinda unnecessary to state, because it should be common sense). And, the statement that there is a possibility that the Rhulisti and Rajaat both used the same kind of energy to use their respective abilities - with Rhulisti Lifeshaping and Arcane Magic, that also can be true.
I also already had argued that it is very much possible that Rajaat attempted to harness Lifeshaping first, but stumbled onto Arcane Magic in the process, and then recognized it's usefulness for his purposes, and then worked on that instead. I can see that as a possibility, as I really doubt Rajaat said to himself one morning "I know, I'll go invent Arcane Magic, whatever that is." and did it. It's much more plausable he was attempting to duplicate what the Rhulisti had done before.
BTW if the Rhulisti were the first spellcasters (I'm assuming they had druids and maybe even elemental clerics) then, for most purposes, it seems that they invented magic on Athas. (Obviously not, since the elementals have more powerful magic.) I got that impression from the timeline, though it doesn't explicitly state that. I'm not sure how any amount of life-shaping could change the color of the sun, however.
Are we sure Dregoth didn't have any distractions, because it seems to me that his quest for godhood is a huge distraction. Plus, he's crazy (well, crazier than Nibenay). However, he did make it to 29th-level without going (more) insane, which shows he has a big heads-up.
BTW if the Rhulisti were the first spellcasters (I'm assuming they had druids and maybe even elemental clerics) then, for most purposes, it seems that they invented magic on Athas. (Obviously not, since the elementals have more powerful magic.) I got that impression from the timeline, though it doesn't explicitly state that. I'm not sure how any amount of life-shaping could change the color of the sun, however.
Dregoth didn't start dreaming of godhood till well after he became undead.
Rhulisti may have used divine spellcasting, but Rajaat created/discovered arcane maigic. Big differance between the two and how they work.