Also have a look on Canonfire to see what information they have about Stonehold.
You might also want to look at info on the Stoneholders' traditional enemies, namely the Rovers of the Barrens, Tenh, and the Thllonrian Barbarians.
Hope that helps!
Originally posted by HANNIBALtheCANNIBAL
i picked stonehold. as far as im concerned the gazietteer is SHYTE. it provided me with almost no information except for the general statistics on stonehold.
To be fair, I don't think anyone ever intended to see players as natives of Stonehold. Evil barbarians having ravaged Tenh for years aren't exactly popular elsewhere in the Flanaess...
Then again, if your players are dying to experience a "barbarian" campaign, this is certainly a good spot
This is just for what I am currently searching - some part of WoG that is less spoken of and gives you the freedom to arrange things like you want.
What exactly do you need?
Maps? NPCs? Story Arks?
Go get the Forgotten Realms Core Setting book. Randomly pick an area there and shove the PC's in it. That area is bound to have half a dozen books on it.
Greyhawk is for people with imagination. Go play using FR.
if i wanted to spend time on this then i would, but seeing as i have a book that tells me whats where and whats going on, then i thought that might make my life a little easier. im sorry were not all 16 years old and jobless like yourself. and some of us dont have the time to spend on making a whole campaign. so whatever help i may get would be greatful.
as for Ivid i would very much appreciate a map, i suck at drawing. can you include some little towns in it too, and some places of interest and if you want we can write up backgrounds for these things (like i said noting big). as for plot hooks i have some of my own but would really like to hear yours if you have any. ive read the other kingdoms that are at war with stonehold and i dont really want to get the players involved in that stuff.
That being said, Stonehold is a land full of cruel, twisted barbarians who menace Tehn. Unless you're running an evil campaign or at the very least a depraved campaign I'd reccommend against setting your game in Stonehold.
If you still insist on using Stonehold, I'd head over the Canonfire.com and use the search option to look for anything pertaining to Stonehold. Besides that, the LGG is the best sourcebook on up-to-date GH material so whatever's not in there is either fan-created or doesn't exist.
Halber
im just asking for source materials guys. if you have any and are willing to share thanks. if not well thanks for taking the time to read the post. i checked out canonfire and it is a good site. thx for the tip i appreciate it.
with all due respect guys if you are just gonna tell me that i shouldnt run a game in this land please keep it to yourselves.
thank you for your time
Your problem is NOT with the LGG. Your problem is that everywhere in Greyhawk has little coverage except the City of Greyhawk itself. That was a design goal of the setting. That is, the reader/DM would get a very tiny amount of info to get started and go on your own way.
The only thing that has been done with Stonehold, outside the small gazetteer entries it has garnered throughout Greyhawk's history, is a two-adventure arc of modules: WGS1 Five Shall Be One, and WGS2 Howl From the North.
Frankly, for those of us with grounding in Greyhawkiana, your statement that the LGG's handling of Stonehold was "SHYTE" revealed you to be edging to trollishness. (That and, for wrong or right, the poor spelling, capitalization, bad punctuation, and the veiled threat to do something which is forbidden by forum rules could only add further to the poor impression.)
Also, the LGG's amount of detail on Stonehold really is magnitudes greater in detail than Stonehold has ever had prior to the LGG's publishing. I know this for a fact. I researched Stonehold in every single published Greyhawk source I could get my hands on to produce this map. The LGG is "da bomb" (Gah, I feel rotten just using that horrid slang. *chuckle*) on Stonehold in comparison to what has ever been done before in published canon, IMO. ;) (That is not a commentary on the creative direction Stonehold took since the '83 boxed set, FWIW, just the depth of detail).
Regards,
Eric Anondson (Flanaess Cartographer)
Originally posted by HANNIBALtheCANNIBAL
and some of us dont have the time to spend on making a whole campaign. so whatever help i may get would be greatful.
Which is why I recommended getting FR instead.
GH is for DM's who need a framework. FR is for DM's who want the kitchen-sink included.
Therefore, GH isn't for you. FR is. Greyhawk requires imagination. FR doesn't.
But of course, I'm just an idiot, so what would I know?
But concerning the general idea, I think it's good; a serious attempt to create a Stonehold - Netbook, and that what it is, in the end, should not be spoiled by the old *a real DM doesn't need sourcebooks* thing.
In my opinion, the problem of WoG in general is the lack of available sources: Means that you can buy most stuff (as PDF or per ebay), but you have to buy it as an easter egg - you don't know the content and if it would be interesting to you (fundamental question for a DM, I think).
Becauseof this, indeed many DMs switch to FR, just because you can run a RPG evening just sitting next to your sourcebook and freestyling; you don't even need adventure modules if you're a bit experienced!
I already posted on my earlier thread "Greyhawk for players starting 2004" that there are quite a lot of younger, less experienced people that enjoy the WoG Setting.
But those, what chances do they have to be introduced in WoG without spending a yet notable amount of money, no matter if they like the setting in the end?
They rely mostly on two or three resources (*for the generic WoG, not to mention the oriental adventures - I am DM for WoG for one year, and never had heard of it):
They have the free Great Kingdom Sourcebook, the two first Lendore Isles modules and a bunch of Oerth Journals! That's too few to keep a game world interesting on the long hand!
I read most posts in these forums with attention, as I think that here at wizard's still gather many of the most experienced fans, Dungeon Masters and game designers. So why don't gather to develop a project to enhance the world of Greyhawk for new players?
*I am sorry, didn't want to speak so EX CATHEDRA and behave like if I was the great teacher; no offense, please*
On topic: As for lack of available sources, you're kidding right? You can honestly tell me that you can't keep the setting interesting with the LGG, Ivid the Undying, Oerth journal, hundreds of fan created articles, and a plethora of ESD's that are for sale?
I only have the LGG and Ivid the Undying and my campaign has and will continue to be interesting. I have more than enough information in the LGG along to span several dozen campaigns. I think you're expecting the book to do all the work for you, you need to apply yourself in order to run a good campaign, the book just doesn't magically make it happen.
Yes, surely, if you say it that way, I can dungeoncrawl and adventures for AGES with all the stuff I collected until now.
I am thinking more about the general situation: How many new players (except those who join that LIVING CAMPAIGN stuff I consider interesting, but don't have the slightest idea how it works, to be honest) DON'T base their campaigns in Ivid the Undying, at least when they're new to WoG?
I once hosted a WoG meeting in my town, and the result was that of 37 players 30 (no kiddin', I made some sort of list) had killed Ivid or conquered the Twin Cities! And the meeting consisted of at least 10 RPG groups...
To start adventures based on official stuff in the western or northern parts of Oerth seemed to be to difficult for most DM, and the majority seemed far more expereienced than I am. (Or at least they pretended...)
In my opinion, we need a new freely avaible region sourcebook, and if wizards doesn't give it to us, then why don't write it all by ourselves?
But you may be right, maybe it's not THAT urgent yet...;)
Originally posted by Ivid
Well, it's not the lack of information in general, but the lack of COHERENT information, in my opinion.
Yes, surely, if you say it that way, I can dungeoncrawl and adventures for AGES with all the stuff I collected until now.
To start adventures based on official stuff in the western or northern parts of Oerth seemed to be to difficult for most DM, and the majority seemed far more expereienced than I am. (Or at least they pretended...)
In my opinion, we need a new freely avaible region sourcebook, and if wizards doesn't give it to us, then why don't write it all by ourselves?
It's not going to happen. Why?
Firstly, because WoG is still the "core" setting of the 3E rules.
Second, because WoG is used by the RPGA LG.
To write that "freely available sourcebook" you'll have to get people together who agree on what exactly "canon" is. Not an easy task to begin with.
Given how many people actually pay to download the "old" GH modules, RPGNow, SVGames, etc.. would have to be complete morons to offer them for free. Why do you think WotC stopped posting free pdf of the old FR accessories?
Sure, I wish they did but I don't expect Santa to show up on my doorstep on Christmas either.
Frankly (and as shocking as that can be), for once I agree with Iskander.
Between the LG Gazetteer, Ivid the Undying, the first two 2E campaign gazetteers (Marklands & Iuz the Evil), a DM with a minimum of imagination should be able to cook up anything anywhere.
No, it won't be a piece of cake but given most WoG cultures are patterned after "real world" nations, info isn't that hard to come by if you have access to a library or the internet (not to mention Canonfire).
And, yes, I am aware not every DM has the free time to work that much on a setting. Guess what? WotC doesn't care. Talk $ and they might listen but that wouldn't be "for free" anymore then, would it?
(to make that clear) I also agree with Iksander, too: Greyhawk is no beginner setting, I think it never was. It's a setting you choose if you like to make up your own campaigns and settings.
A DM with few experience with these things should pick an easier setting - for his/her benefit and that of his/her players!
AND really, for most things in WoG, you don't need to be a master storyteller to find a solution for. Not only because WoG is a World based basically on medieval Europe and fantasy stereotypes known at least from LORD OF THE RINGS, just think of those handy utilities like NETBOOK OF PLOTS and others.
On the other hand, if there is a serious attempt to create some unofficial suppliements for GH, I can only encourage those who give it a try, and offer my help if they need it.
But what nobody is going to do is co-writing a campaign whose DM has to few time to do it for himself.
In any case, if the discussion is to end with "who called whom an idiot earlier, I won't reply to posts here anymore.
Lol - give HANNIBALtheCANNIBAL a break! He posted a sarcastic retort to somebody elses sarcastic comment. This is EXACTLY the sort of attitude that we expect and approve of in England! Did none of you guys see the Hannibal movie trilogy? How cool would he have been w/o the sarcasm, I ask? [rhetorical question btw] He may have been sarcastic, and a cannibal, but that didn't make him a bad person. He only ate Americans (and a couple of Italians I think, but whose counting).
My own problem (i.e. the one relevant to this thread at least) is that, while I do have imagination, I lack geographical, metallurgical, meteorological, map-making, and artistic skills to name but a few. Plus, I find it hard enough to copy and learn other people's stuff without having to make it all up myself! It is possible to make up everything yourself, but it is far more satisfying to build on and into the pre-existing background in my view.
"In my opinion, we need a new freely avaible region sourcebook, and if wizards doesn't give it to us, then why don't write it all by ourselves?"
I already started this about three years ago and trust me, it is a nightmare! I'm including pseudo-canon from Canonfire, LGG, and my own campaign but there is so much information out there about LGG regions that it is a real logistical problem to stitch it all together. I'm wading through the alphabet and am currently working on the Hold of the Sea Princes and Lendore Isles. However, I've been unable to finish a single region off totally to date. The evolving LGG and articles online mean that updating it is a full time job in itself!
I'd favour a card format gazeteer that can be updated and added to as LGG history evolves but the material is copyrighted, or belongs to fan authors etc. The logistics of producing a fully detailed official gazeteer are prohibitive unfortunately.
I haven't got to Stonehold yet, but I'm pretty sure that the only official source material for it is in the sources that I quoted earlier.
However, I would agree that it isn't the best place to start a campaign. The Rovers of the Barrens make better pcs I feel - their culture was detailed in the module Ghost Dance and in Iuz the Evil, they're nomadic so no cities to worry about, you've got villains handy with Stonehold to the east and Iuz to the south, plus the Bandit Kingdoms just a bit further down. Playing a downtrodden, dying people, has more roleplaying potential than playing Stoneholders, but then I've never been a fan of playing evil characters myself, so I'm sure that many others will disagree with me.
i just asked for some source material.
ivid, pauln6, eric A, and halberkill, thanks for what you gave much appreciated
ivid if you need help doing the write up of stonehold for your book or what have you, ill help with that.
as for the rest of you... thank you for your lessons in ettiquette or for pointing out my misspelling, as im sure no one cares, but all i asked for was some source material. lets be honest here this thread is going no where cause people just wanna give their little opinions about stuff when it wasnt asked. completely pointless guys. lets stick to the topic. and it isnt my rudeness, althought i will be happy to contribute to a thread titled "Hannibals is an ASS".
iskander... your right! i have no imagination. but im gonna give it a try. here goes. "i have created a world and im calling it greyhawk. and in this world there are people who live in a place called stonehold. i was wondering if anyone would like to help me write source material for this immaginary world of mine?"
ha? ha? what do you think. pretty good eh?
Originally posted by pauln6
My own problem (i.e. the one relevant to this thread at least) is that, while I do have imagination, I lack geographical, metallurgical, meteorological, map-making, and artistic skills to name but a few.
I highly, highly, highly (very) recommend the maps by our one and only Eric Anondson that are available for download from Canonfire (just do a search for Anondson or maps).
He is a Mapping God.
Not only are the maps incredible to look at, with contours and everything, but he's also gone and done a LOT of research into the areas he mapped, so every little village, ruin or cave from modules, sourcebooks, etc. is also marked on the maps.
The maps alone can spur a million and one adventure ideas without even having the sourcebooks to correlate the names to.
And since he reads this forum (and posted above) I'd like to say just one thing:
WHERE'S MY GREAT KINGDOM MAP YOU PROMISED ME, BIOTCH?!?!?!
Have a nice day
Originally posted by Iksander
I highly, highly, highly (very) recommend the maps by our one and only Eric Anondson that are available for download from Canonfire (just do a search for Anondson or maps).
He is a Mapping God.
Not only are the maps incredible to look at, with contours and everything, but he's also gone and done a LOT of research into the areas he mapped, so every little village, ruin or cave from modules, sourcebooks, etc. is also marked on the maps.
I'll second that. No setting out there has ever seen such high-quality maps.
No matter how much you enlarge them, you keep finding new details. I often feel that if I looked close enough I could watch NPC walk around!
Kudos to you Eric!
I downloaded them at work today. The detail is freakin' amazing. Now all I have to do is wait until the boss is out and use his color laser printer. Shhh!
In CY 591+ campaigns, Stonehold is a land of contradictions, with a military dictatorship (rhelt) supported by a more-or-less loyal warrior class; traditional (Flan-derived) rural people organized into tribes or ethnicities; and nobles (atamans) ruling the urban centers. Also, due to the very successful raid of the Arapahi (Rovers of the Barrens), inspired by Tang the Horrific, one of Stonehold's townships has been sacked, but no evidence points west: instead the rhelt and his military supporter look east and consider how to retaliate against the Suel barbarians. Finally, Stonehold has a ridiculous amount of new wealth -- gained from the sack of Tenh and the platinum mines still controlled by the rhelt. However, the mineral wealth lacks easy access to markets.
Earlier, the Hold of Stonefist is somewhat similar but less consolidated. One imagines latent strife between the power centers developing in the towns and the traditional tribesfolk in the lands. Of course, at the whim of the Master, this strife could be quashed with extreme violence.
Even earlier, the Colten Feodality seems to have been a relatively calm land -- subdued by the Duke of Tenh but interested mainly in continuing to subsist. However, its social organization seems to have privileged intra-tribal solidarity sufficient to resist encroachment by the Suel barbarians.
In the present, I can imagine 1st level characters starting play in the aftermath of the destruction of Vlekstaad. Depending on where you want to begin play, the PCs might have escaped from the Arapahi and be somewhere lost in the Northern Barrens -- perhaps initially attempting to return home but becoming quickly diverted to the ruin of Tenh (or further south into the Bandit Kingdoms). Alternatively, the PCs might be some of the 700 people who somehow avoided the sacking of Vlekstaad. Perhaps they were away from the town and returned only to witness it burn to the ground?
Either way, in whatever way one chooses, I think that Stonehold is a great place to situate a campaign where players roleplay characters who wrestle with morality, with what it means for them to become (anti)heroes. Do they aspire to join the rhelt's warrior elite? Do they identify with ancestral tribe culture? Do they seek revenge against the Suel barbarians? personal power and/or wealth?
Whatever the thing, I think that the unpredictable violence of Stonehold is a greyt place to make it happen.
How many roleplaying nights have you saved my players from a b/w penciled campaign map on crumbled paper, I wonder...;)
To pauln6:
I know it's a nightmare trying to write up something as tremendous as that AND to stay close to the original setting. my deep respect, as I never could aspire to write something so big as a guide for the entire Flanaess.What I am currently thinking about is to focus on a new,relatively small and less explored setting for GH (got a bit bored of the Aerdy Kingdom at last) and to start writing a campaign journal and then a sourcebook.
I am still looking for *my* setting - although I always had Stonehold in mind, as I like that northern, viking atmosphere, but I keep thinking about a guide for the Sea of Dust or the Hepmonaland, depending on what info I can grab.
In any case, during the next three weeks I am about to write down a campaign concept for my Taladas setting (sooner or later avaible on the www) and then will do something about Greyhawk, since I really begin to enjoy writing
Will keep you all informed of my progress, especially those who want stuff for Stonehold - but to get REALLY familiar with this setting will take until september, I am afraid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*Out for Spain*
[Either way, in whatever way one chooses, I think that Stonehold is a great place to situate a campaign where players roleplay characters who wrestle with morality, with what it means for them to become (anti)heroes. Do they aspire to join the rhelt's warrior elite? Do they identify with ancestral tribe culture? Do they seek revenge against the Suel barbarians? personal power and/or wealth?[/b]
Wow - I stand corrected! It sounds like Stonehold has a lot going for it in terms of adventure settings.
I hope you don't mind if I save your comments for inclusion in my gazeteer (if I ever get to the letter S)
And yes - Erik's maps are excellent. Already downloaded and printed! Also Braggi's maps are fab: extremely detailed, including numerous dungeons and quasi-official fan locations.
in the next week or so im gonna make a write up of stonehold with possible additional plot hooks. i dont have a website or know anything about the web except how to navigate it, so if someone wants it to post on their site then by all means, your welcome at it.
Originally posted by HANNIBALtheCANNIBAL
at the begining of this thread people were telling me that stonehold is a bad place to base a campaign because it is evil. on the contrary, i think its one of the best. who wants fluffy bunny type adventures were the players dont ever face real challenges except at the bottom of dungeons. even though thats fine, its just not what i like to run.
Excuse me, but the general assumption at the beginning of this thread was that you wished to base a campaign in Stonehold with players as natives, not visitors.
Thus, most DM were a bit apprehensive at the thought of players assuming the role of bloodthirsty evil barbarians who have plundered their way across Tenh and other neighboring countries.
A party of PC suddenly finding itself in Stonehold is an altogether different thing.
Moreover, I would advise not calling "fluffy bunny" the type of adventures you can have in other parts of the Flanaess.
Fighting Iuz in the Vesve. Reconquering Almor. Pushing back SB invaders in Onnwal. Etc.. isn't exactly a piece of cake.
If you think surviving in Stonehold is tough, go try to infiltrate Dorakaa for king Belvor and you'll discover a whole new meaning to the word pain.
That said, best of luck with your campaign.