There is some implication based on Wizard's Conclave that the difference between wild magic and High Sorcery is readily discernable within the Tower of High Sorcery. Anyone among the Tower population who is seen as going that way would probably face explusion at best, death at the worst.
Outside a Tower he would most definitely have to maintain the pretense of memorizing spells while around wizards. Deviations from this (such as repeatedly spontaneously casting the same spell over and over) would arouse suspicion. Astute wizards might notice something is up. But they would not automatically know that a former wizard somewhere out in the world has gone renegade.
Regardless, abandoning wizardry and adopting sorcery would be seen as turning their backs on the gods and the Orders, and would thus be renegades and apostates. This would be seen as a betrayal and would lead to hostilities eventually, though for now there aren't enough Wizards to make renegade hunting feasible.
Originally posted by Psionycx
Regardless, abandoning wizardry and adopting sorcery would be seen as turning their backs on the gods and the Orders, and would thus be renegades and apostates. This would be seen as a betrayal and would lead to hostilities eventually, though for now there aren't enough Wizards to make renegade hunting feasible.
Personally, I think the term renegade should be limited to "apostates" from the WoHS, rather than sorcerers as a whole.
As for the current strength of the WoHS, I think it depends on whether or not you want to use the new prestige classes and want to use the ToHS as a place of resources and power again. Sure, they were 16 wizards in "Wizard's Conclave" but they wouldn't remain at 16 for long. After all, the first thing they'd do is get apprentices, which are the PC's. Assuming that they take 2 apprentices each, and that your PC is old enough to pass the test, you have 48 wizards right there.
To have things like renegade hunters and the rest, you have to assume that they would have upped their membership enough to support specialists. 48 wizards should do it.
Of course, there will never be more than a few hundred wizards of High Sorcery in all of Ansalon.
Does anyone wonder if something is going to happen with him? I mean, he was a very important character...are we to beleive that he will drop out of the story? I think that Palin still has some things left to do on Krynn. Maybe he will once again take up a form of magic...be it High or Primal sorcery. Perhaps we will see?
My gut though say that we wont for some time.
Sorry about the off-topicness....got a little carried away with the thought
Originally posted by silverlark
If a Wizard of High Sorcery were to have his Wizard levels changed into Sorcerer levels, what exactly would occur as a result? Would he be immediately branded a Renegade and hunted down by the Orders? Could they even tell that he's lost access to the abilities of a Wizard of High Sorcery, at that?
Pretty sure he would be branded a renegade for abdoning the Orders and taking up the deemed dangerous primal sorcery. Of course a sorcerer could always try and pretend to remain a wizard. Most wizards who are returning to the WoHS since the gods return had very little trouble remembering how to High Sorcery spells. I would think a wizard turned sorcerer would be able to fool other wizards that he is still using High Sorcery so long as he remembers to incantate and gesture correctly.
I would love to see something happen with Palin. He kind of got the shaft in the whole 5th Age. Tricked into releasing sorcery to the general public, tortured, now no magic (albeit he requested this himself). I would like to see him do something...even if it didn't have anything to do with magic.
Also, I think that while some (like Dalamar) may not understand him, the Wizards of High Sorcery do respect and appreciate him. Many of his Academy students seem to be coming to the Orders just as many of Goldmoon's mystic disciples are coming to Mishakal. If nothing else I think that Palin could get help from Dalamar, Jenna and his former students in a pinch.
As for the Orders, for right now their biggest problem is that the most significant users of sorcery, the Thorn Knights, outnumber them. However, I'm not so sure that the number of wizards will remain small.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder as they say, and the people of Ansalon just suffered through several decades of what life would be like without magic. The erratic availability of magic in the Fifth Age made people appreciate it more than they have since the Kingpriest turned the public against wizards centuries ago. Even the Knights of Solamnia have, for the first time, laid out formal principles for the involvement of wizards in their order.
So if Jenna is as aggressive a recruiter as she purports to be, then the Orders could easily swell larger than they were during the Fourth Age as open recruitment of wizards leads to more widespread use of High Sorcery, which is of course what the three gods want.
Originally posted by Psionycx
Palin's lack of magic is a personal choice rather than a forced loss. He could easily be as powerful as Jenna if he had wanted to be. But he ended up giving his whole life to the cause of magic and he seems to want to do something else with his life. It was interesting that he kept his spellbook. That sort of implies that if he had returned to magic it would have been as a wizard, not as a sorceror. I think that for the remainder of his life (remember that he's getting up there in age) he will probably focus on his Master Ambassador class and perhaps become a leading voice in southern Ansalon.
Also, I think that while some (like Dalamar) may not understand him, the Wizards of High Sorcery do respect and appreciate him. Many of his Academy students seem to be coming to the Orders just as many of Goldmoon's mystic disciples are coming to Mishakal. If nothing else I think that Palin could get help from Dalamar, Jenna and his former students in a pinch.
When the gods of magic resurrected him we are told they stripped away all knowledge of spellcasting. They did not remove his ability to cast spells just his knowlege of how to do it. So technically he could relearn how to be a wizard or pickup being a sorcerer again. While he could do it, I don't think it's likely given the fact that his love/lust for magic nearly killed him several times, maimed him, and just about ruined his marriage. As much as I would like to see him become a spellcaster again I just don't see it happening again. I still would like to see him become figure in the world again, whether it be a figure prominant or not doesn't matter. I just don't want to see him fade to black.
I don't think he will fade to black though. There's too much going on with his family, with nearby Qualinesti and in Solace itself for him to simply vanish entirely. One doesn't have to be a wizard to have an impact on events. Palin simply didn't want to end up sequestered away from his family in the Tower of High Sorcery. As a Master Ambassador who is the mayor of Solace, has ties to the elves, the Knights and the Orders of High Sorcery, Palin has lots of opportunities to play a role in events across Ansalon.
He is a wizard and his stint as mayor should be chalked up to brief insanity.
I disagree, compare his cameo in Wizard's Conclave to his appearance in every other book. He seems happier and more content than he has ever been. When he practiced magic, even back in the days of High Sorcery, he was constantly preyed with doubt over his own abilities and lived in his uncle's shadow.
Does a Wizard REALLY have a choice? I mean, only a very select few are even born with teh potential to become wizards and they know it. is it possible to just say "all right, I am going to draw upon Sorcery instead of followt he paths of Wizardy instead"? Is it posssible that a person may not have any abillity to draw upon primal sorcery at all?
Actually, wizardry has never really required special innate talent per se. It helps to be like Raistlin and have it, but it isn't specifically necessary. The big issue has always been that it does require a lot of study (hence Intelligence as the relevant ability), which is not something many people wanted to undertake unless they were planning on taking the Test and committing to a life as a wizard.
Sorcerors have it rather easier, as they are working more from innate talent. Now in Fifth Age Krynn sorcerors aren't assumed to have unusual heritage, as is the norm in other D&D settings. But relying on Charisma they are working from force of personality not education. Emma from the Academy of Sorcery is a good example of someone that wasn't an intellectual yet made breakthroughs in sorcery via intuitive talent.
So if you come from a roleplaying perspective, most wizards are not going to be from wiz to sor. Just like not every sorcerer will be able to make the transition to wiz. From a rules perspective any wiz with a charisma > 10 can do, but there will most likely be consequences, depending upon his orders view of sorcerers. Likewise, any sorcerers according to the rules could become wizards so long as they have a intellegence > 10 as well. Personally, I've never run into a sorcerer wanting to become a wizard or vice-versa so, at least now, I'm sticking to the roleplaying version.
I think Palin betrayed himself. I can't say it wasn't in character but like Usha's betrayal, it made me loathe the character...especially when his "family" is so not worth it.
[conspiracy theorist]
Actually, I think Palin saw the foulness hidden at the heart of High Sorcery and, unique among wizards, had the wisdom and self-discipline to reject it.
Ancient Sorcery's risks to the physical environment have been documented and discussed--although I still think that those may very well have been caused by the active presence of Chaos in the world at the time, as opposed to anything inherent to the magic itself. However, few people seem to have considered the spiritual dangers of High Sorcery.
High Sorcery is terribly addictive, judging from all that we've seen in the novels. In addition, its practitioners have a habit of becoming arrogant and withdrawn--even the good wizards of the White Robes seem to spend more time advancing 'the magic' and their own power than doing good and helping ordinary folk. In fact, an obsessive, slavish, idolatrous devotion to 'the magic' seems to be the defining characteristic of nearly every wizard on Krynn, from Palin to Raistlin. Part of this may be the training--after all, the Test was adopted as a model by the Knights of Takhisis--but I think that there may be something inherent in the very structure of focused arcane magic, at least as provided by the moons.
Palin, one of the only spellcasters to have experience with both forms of sorcery, saw this difference and rejected the honeyed venom of High Sorcery, which offers power but reduces its users to proud and obsessive husks serving the interests of the magic and the three moons. He can't safely return to the practice of Ancient Sorcery at the present time--he's probably being watched more carefully than any other past or present sorcerer on Krynn--but while serving as Mayor of Solace, he spends his time and resources by setting up secret methods of communication and escape for other sorcerers, in anticipation of the purge that he knows is coming.
[/conspiracy theory]
Matthew L. Martin, Dragonlance Heretic
Ancient Sorcery's risks to the physical environment have been documented and discussed--although I still think that those may very well have been caused by the active presence of Chaos in the world at the time, as opposed to anything inherent to the magic itself. However, few people seem to have considered the spiritual dangers of High Sorcery.
Interesting theory. It's valid at least in terms of the documented addiction and withdrawal from "regular" society that characterizes wizards, although in many ways this is possibly painted with the same broad strokes of bias in our accounts of wizards as sorcery was in Wizard's Conclave.
The truth is, High Sorcery is magic blessed by the gods, for good or ill, and the ancient or primal sorcery you're referring to can only be accessed by mortals when Chaos' energes are in the world. One could say, indeed, that mortals weren't meant to wield this ancient power at all - and the dramatic introduction of that power (and the errors that lead to it) were "repaired" by the gods of magic introducing a less dangerous means of accessing it.
Ultimately, the safest kind of magic to use is none at all. If you absolutely must cast spells, go for the cleric angle. Mysticism's as problematic as sorcery, and at least with the clerical power you know where you stand.
Cheers,
Cam
If Takihisis is responsible for sorcery or at least its discovery, is it not god magic as well then?
No. She isn't responsible for it by any means, and showing mortals that it once again exists doesn't make it god magic.
Cheers,
Cam
If Takihisis is responsible for sorcery or at least its discovery, is it not god magic as well then?
No. 'nuf said.
Remember that even the dominant force for Good, the Solamnic Knights, were highly distrustful of wizards. Wizards, by their very nature, were seen as a fringe group of dubious virtue and that distrust, and the fear of magic's power (which was not balanced by clerical magic during the Age of Despair) made wizards objects of fear, even when they tried to be helpful.
Their position in the world was starting to improve just as the Chaos War erupted. Takhisis's subsequent theft of Krynn then erased all the gains they'd made in public opinion.
I also think Palin needs some slack here. A lot of the problems in his family stem from the decades during which he we was too caught up in "big picture" issues to really focus on his family. He himself recognized that and it was why he asked the gods to let him live but not return the magic to him. Palin saw the need to devote himself to matters closer to home and knew that the demands of magic (High Sorcery or wild magic) would have ended up pulling him away yet again.
Maybe Ulin will come in and take his father's place in the Orders of High Sorcery. After all, he is the only that knows that he is responsible for blowing up the Academy of Sorcery.
And given the current feelings about wild magic in the Conclave they would applaud him if they knew.
And given the current feelings about wild magic in the Conclave they would applaud him if they knew.
Not really, as many of the wizards that assisted in reclamation of the Tower of Wayreth were students of the Academy.
Not really, as many of the wizards that assisted in reclamation of the Tower of Wayreth were students of the Academy.
Which by current standards seems to be roughly similar to admitting that you were a hippie in your younger days.
Granted many of the current WoHS benefitted from Palin's Academy, but it was never truly an Order institution, and if it still existed it would probably be the main focus of opposition to the Orders, so I suspect that not many in the Conclave lament its loss all that deeply.
I'd imagine a lot of these would be wizards now at the memorial.
The AoM says that once a year Palin and former Academy students reunite at the ruins of the Academy to remember their time there.
I'd imagine a lot of these would be wizards now at the memorial.
There's two things to bear in mind about that.
One is that Palin is no longer a member of the Orders of High Sorcery and therefore what he doesn't automatically lend credibility to something in the Order's eyes.
Secondly, a lot of those former Academy students are still sorcerors and the Conclave is likely to take a dim view of fraternization with the "enemy". The White Robes might be a little more tolerent given that Palin was their former leader and some of them were his students. But the Black and Red Robes are likely to treat hanging around with sorcerors, regardless of shared common history, as being no different to hanging around with renegade wizards in earlier ages. In other words: treason against the Orders.
That seems a little harsh. It's not like they would be doing anything major at the memorial, probably just have a bit to eat and drink, a little wine , a little laughter and catching up on old times.
Perhaps, but wasn't it equally harsh to insist on the rather aggressive posture that the Orders held towards renegade wizards during prior ages?
Sorcerors are the renegades of the Fifth Age. AoM only covers up to before the Conclave was reformed. I would expect the tone at these gatherings to grow progressively worse after that happens. Remember that all three of the current Order heads are ex-practioners of wild magic who have unhestitatingly abandoned it for High Sorcery. Jenna, Dalamar and even Coryn all seem to share the view that wild magic cannot be allowed to perpetuate.
I would expect maybe the first gathering after the gods return to be semi-civil with the wizards maybe subtly pressing their former colleagues who are still sorcerors to become wizards. After the Conclave reforms I would expect subsequent gatherings to be more hostile. The Orders have never been overly indulgent about renegades, even ones that were former colleagues. Palin of course does not count, as he has renounced all magic and is considered "retired" from the perspective of the Orders.
The loss of the Academy of Sorcery is not one the Orders as a whole are likely to mourn. Those wizards that did not turn to wild magic in the gods' absence would have never respected the place. Dalamar was never affiliated with the Academy. Jenna is too focused on restoring the prestige of the Orders and wasn't closely tied to the Acadeny anyway. Coryn may be the most sympathetic from a personality perspective and because some of her White Robes are former Academy students. But even she is too committed to advancing High Sorcery to indulge those that won't play by the rules for very long.
This is, however, a great role-playing opportunity. WoHS are likely to feel that the return of the gods fulfills all the things the Academy students were searching for all those years and they may be perplexed/dismayed that many of forrmer colleagues haven't embraced the return of High Sorcery. The sorcerors are likely to feel that the wizards are becoming oppressive again and will likely feel tension towards even old friends that are now WoHS and thus part of an organization that is hostile to the sorcerors' existence. The gatherings may end up being about as "friendly" as the Whitestone Council during the War of the Lance.