From what I know of the other D&D worlds, they were all created. If the plane Athas resides on was not created then there would probably be no deities. Of course this would also mean that Athas' prime material plane has always existed whereas the other PMPs did not.
Or the deities abandoned it, which allowed the rhulisti to inherent it.
I think I'm more for this than anything else.
Or the deities abandoned it, which allowed the rhulisti to inherent it.
I think I'm more for this than anything else.
I like better to think the gods were killed, either by thenselves or someother extraordinary force.
I like better to think the gods were killed, either by thenselves or someother extraordinary force.
To easy, heh.
Has more of an Athasian feel to me if it was just something the gods abandoned and closed off from the rest of the multiverse.
Any guess on why they abandoned it? They didn't like and decided to start again, so they did. And they created forgotten (
), yeeerrrc!From what I know of the other D&D worlds, they were all created. If the plane Athas resides on was not created then there would probably be no deities. Of course this would also mean that Athas' prime material plane has always existed whereas the other PMPs did not.
Gods, or so the way it is written, are given strength and reality by the faith of their believers. So couldn't we assume that for the most part, the elemental planes (or the powers within) created the prime material plane, sentient lives came after (maybe by evolution), and they inadvertly created the outer planes with their beliefs. Keep in mind that this could've been done eons ago. The creations of the different worlds by the gods (or part of it) could simply be mythology. With this idea, there wouldn't have to be any gods present for the birth of Athas. Or maybe not... :P
I personnally feel there is a purpose for Athas... a sort of universal destiny...
If gods are behind it or not, I don't know yet. But think about it, a far out place nobody can reach where the races can't get any help from the gods if they make big mistakes... like defiling the whole planet; a place where the masses are on their own... it kinda feels like a test, or an experiment.I very much prefer an entirely seperate cosmology for Athas, which strips it entirely from any connection from the typical D&D "multiverse" -- not in that it is "cut off" but in that the multiverse as envisioned simply doesn't exist.
As for where it came from and how it was created? Well, why not simply have it as a universe that arose naturally? No deities involved, or necessary, just a natural and ill-understood metaphysical process.
For example, in Norse cosmology, the universe arose out of fire and ice, not due the work of any gods or intelligent force. Now, the gods later created the world from the body of their slain enemy, but the universe itself simply arose out of the interaction between the fire and ice.
There are of course a variety of other ways to do it as well. In fact, if you go with the idea that the Black is a realm seperating all that exists from all that does not, you could say that in the beginning, there was the Black. There was nothing. But as the Black is a shadow, as it reflects and distorts that which exists, it reflected and distored nothing, and thus there was something. And so the shadow reality produced by the Black became reality. All that exists was seperated from all that does not.
There was nothing. But as the Black is a shadow, as it reflects and distorts that which exists, it reflected and distored nothing, and thus there was something. And so the shadow reality produced by the Black became reality. All that exists was seperated from all that does not.
Nice!
But in your cosmology, where do you place the other planes of existence? I don't see you denying their existence. Besides, Dregoth had to travel somewhere through the planar gate and the Githyanky-zerai races had to come from somewhere.
Can you tell I liked to play as an Athar in Planescape?
Besides, Dregoth had to travel somewhere through the planar gate and the Githyanky-zerai races had to come from somewhere
Actually, I side with Greyorm and use a closed off, self contained Athas. Its not simply cut off from other worlds, but rather these other world's and settings simply do not exist. As for Dregoth's gate, it leads to other strange Athasian planes unheard of (one of which I use is a far realms kind of place that the ol' undead dragon likes to frequent). As for the githyanki and githzerai, I have them residing within the Grey instead of the Astral (and I don't have them, a mammalian race, being the forefathers of the Gith, who are reptiles).
Nice!
Thanks!
But in your cosmology, where do you place the other planes of existence? I don't see you denying their existence. Besides, Dregoth had to travel somewhere through the planar gate and the Githyanky-zerai races had to come from somewhere.
I'm not sure if you saw my notes about a proposed nature of the Black a couple weeks back? In summary, these planes would be the distorted shadows of Athas which populate the Black.
In regards other planes of existance, ala the typical D&D cosmology, I do deny their existance. Not for Greyhawk, or Planescape, or etc. where they exist, but for Athas, where they simply do not exist, no more than they exist in our world.
Athas has an entirely seperate cosmology, much like Birthright has its own self-contained cosmology (ie: the planes known to other campaign worlds don't exist "out there, somewhere" or "cut off" -- they simply don't exist).
It was proposed that Dregoth's mirror is a gate to these shadow planes in the Black. I would postulate that the Gith races are from one of these as well, or perhaps from some unexplored area of the Deep Gray.
Not for Greyhawk, or Planescape, or etc. where they exist, but for Athas, where they simply do not exist, no more than they exist in our world.
What do you mean, they don't exist in our world???
As for your notes, no I haven't checked them, but I will as soon as I get that search button to work.
What do you mean, they don't exist in our world???
He means that since Krynn, Toril, the Nine Hells and the lot have NOTHING to do with Athas, then they should not exist within the closed cosmology of DS: no travel to Baator, meetings with Elminster, Mists from the Dread plane, spelljamming vessels, gods, elementals planes with metal-weilding genies in them, ...
To account for the gythyanki and demons, they come from within the closed DS cosmology, and are not the product of other planes like Baator or the Astral. Dregoth does not reach to those planes whith his Gate but rather to similar hard-to-get-to DS planes within the DS cosmology. Thus the demons with which Dregoth allies himself are not from Baator and taking a time-off from the Blood War, but are rather from a DS plane previously unheard of. That plane, and others, would be the ones that Rajaat tried to reach when he was also researching a way to use the power of the Inner Planes, or I should say the Athasian Inner Planes.
As to how the Material Plane of Athas formed: Look to the mythology of the Really Real World. Plenty of ancient religions had stories of how the universe just simply appeared one day, with no sentient mind guiding it's formation.
There are no gods on Athas. Canonically, we know there never have been gods here. No gods abandoned Athas, because no gods ever existed. The "gods" of the Green Age were fabrications created by ignorant elemental clerics and druids who didn't fully understand what they were serving, nothing more.
--and Athas is better off that way NB
I reminds me of Cyrus9a's moto:
Preserving the purity of Athas.
So i see most worlds being created by elementals beings - the forebearers of the gods - then after that.... well, gods could arise in any number of ways.
In relation to Athas, when i DM, i toy with players. Gods DO exsist on other realms - In the section on Dregoth gate. it mentions his quest to become a god - which leads to this; anyone read the Nights Dawn Trilogy by Peter F. Hamilton? in that, when Josh Calvert goes searching for the Thraka God -why was it some important - because the Thraka as a race, were factual. So for a god to exist, it must have been so far beyond the realm of thier understanding as to BE a god. Back to Athas, how could the term GOD come into being without the concept, or creatures existing? yeah, i know there at multitude of answers, but basically, when i DM, i take the tack that yes, gods don't exist on athas now, but maybe they did... and the grey is connected with that *somehow*
I did run a campain with a full-blow athasian underdark, in which the last of the Athasian pantheon dwelled, protected from the grey by a mysterious dimension called the White. Cool campain. vampires dominated the underdark, mainly because the group i was DM-ing had many Vampire: Masquerade players in it, and that's the flavour they wanted.
I digress, sorry. Gods. Athas. My view: nothing stopping them coming to athas, but nothing to attract them. If they NEED worshippers to derive power, athas is a no-go-zone, if not, and they can survive regardless, Athas could be a good place to hide. Myself personally, i think the grey is somehow tied to the anchient gods departure, or death. My favorite personal theory is that unlike other realms, where the elementals eventually let go, they went to war - and won - against he anchient gods, and the grey is litterally the ashes of the dead gods.
From my reading of Cannon material: Gods don't exist on Athas, and won't natually arise. Gods that need worhshippers for power can't survive, but Gods DO exist on other realms (Dregoth is at least aware of them) - wether Athas is hostile to them if they don't derive power from worshippers is another matter altogether. It's open to debate, that's for sure, any diety coming to athas is going to have to contend with the SK's, and the elemental beings - if they take offence.
Sorry, folks, I hate to rain on your parade, but the various d20 fantasy settings are not connected by an overarching cosmology. Sorry. The united cosmology presented in 2e days no longer exists.
Just go ahead and tell the good folks working on the Planescape and Spelljammer conversions that, or anyone that uses the Manual of the Planes default setting. The overarching cosmology does indeed still exist, its simply presented now as an option to explore within the individual's game, just as each setting presents itself with the option to keep itself closed off from the rest of the settings not directly affiliated. Sorry, but I think the parade goes on regardless of the weather.
Canonically, we know there never have been gods here. No gods abandoned Athas, because no gods ever existed. The "gods" of the Green Age were fabrications created by ignorant elemental clerics and druids who didn't fully understand what they were serving, nothing more.
While I agree that there is no need for Gods and Athas is better for it, you statement that there never have been Gods is not based on canon. There are indeed hints of Gods throughout the various DS modules. Whether they where shams or not has never been specified, but there is no undeniable evidence that they never existed.
I've always preferred the idea that Athas is part of the whole D&D cosmology, but is just unreachable. There are so many common elements that I feel they mesh together well. The reasons for why it is separate make for interesting discussions anyways. :D
He means that since Krynn, Toril, the Nine Hells and the lot have NOTHING to do with Athas, then they should not exist within the closed cosmology of DS: no travel to Baator, meetings with Elminster, Mists from the Dread plane, spelljamming vessels, gods, elementals planes with metal-weilding genies in them, ...
To account for the gythyanki and demons, they come from within the closed DS cosmology, and are not the product of other planes like Baator or the Astral. Dregoth does not reach to those planes whith his Gate but rather to similar hard-to-get-to DS planes within the DS cosmology. Thus the demons with which Dregoth allies himself are not from Baator and taking a time-off from the Blood War, but are rather from a DS plane previously unheard of. That plane, and others, would be the ones that Rajaat tried to reach when he was also researching a way to use the power of the Inner Planes, or I should say the Athasian Inner Planes.
Sorry Pen, I get it. My response was made as a joke. Maybe it was too subtle. Sort of a there-is-no-Santa-Claus thing.
And as for gods or not on Athas, I go with Mach and Az_zel on this, besides, it's up to the individual DM to decide what he wants in his Dark Sun, even if it's a 600 pound turkey with psionic abilities that would rival the SKs.
Sad but true...
There are so many common elements that I feel they mesh together well. The reasons for why it is separate make for interesting discussions anyways.
Okay, I'll bite. Why do you think it's seperate?!
Mephboy
Okay, I'll bite. Why do you think it's seperate?!
Well, there can be many explanations. I'm sure many have been posted here on the boards before.
The first question is when was it sealed (or has it ALWAYS been sealed?). After that, if it has not always been sealed, then who sealed it and for what reasons?
- Always sealed - too easy.
- Sealed by the Gods - Why? What where they trying to keep in there? (Or perhaps some other race sealed them in there? Perhaps even other Rhulisti?)
- Some entity which is still slumbering away in the depths of Athas
- They disliked life shaping because it exalted life and not the gods (Bad for other worlds and their pantheon who depend on belief!!!), so they wanted to keep the halflings in there. (this is one I am trying to develop; notice the lack of life shaped items in other settings... Hmm? Hmm? :D)
- The gods died somehow and it was sealed as a consequence
- Some entity which is still slumbering away in the depths of Athas
- Sealed by the Rhulisti - they where trying to keep something out
- They where escaping the Githyanki
- They god tired of the damned petty squabbling of the gods and kicked them out (that would be a funny twist)
- They where escaping the Githyanki
- Sealed by someone else - I was thinking of an even more ancient time in the life of Athas where it looked like most other worlds (another one I am working on).
There are many possibilities. Does it really make a difference to a campaign? Only if you are running in the VERY high levels, I would think. I don't think it is necessary to completely sever ties with every other world in D&D, but it it always up to the DM.
Of course, I am of the belief that Athas resides in its own cosmos and if there are gods, they are elder elemental gods similar in form and motivation to Cthulhu.
Possibly, I might allow a system of shadow walking similar to Zelazny's Nine Princes in Amber, but with the other worlds found as being mere shadows of Athas (being the lawful stagnant end of the spectrum) and possibly the Black as the utter chaos (entropy) side of the spectrum. Bleak and lifeless with the possibility of ancient beings distraught over the great past that was and can never be again.
But this is my working theory for now: Athas forms independently within what will become the Astral, Ethereal (The Grey) and Plane of Shadow (The Black), but it will be sometime before humanoid life shows up, if ever, because of it's tiny blue sun. Enter the Nature-masters. Their living ship has had a nasty accident (breaking through Athas' still-sealed crystal sphere, maybe?), and they abandon it above the water-covered world below them, leaving their ship (which will become The Messenger) to follow a 45-year orbit around Athas and it's sun, until they can perhaps use materials from the young planet to make repairs. While this is going on, the planes surrounding Athas are still going through their normal formation cycle, which can take thousands of years to finish, maybe explaining Athas' isolation, and why there have never been any gods; the planes have yet to form the pools/curtains and other conduits neccesary for divine beings to show up and claim Athas as their own.
Just an idea...:D
Does it really make a difference to a campaign? Only if you are running in the VERY high levels, I would think.
Depends on how you run your games. I've had very low level parties uncovering 'truths' about Athas' enigmatic history. Not everything needs to be reserved for high levels.
Of course, I am of the belief that Athas resides in its own cosmos and if there are gods, they are elder elemental gods similar in form and motivation to Cthulhu.
There's a big difference between a typical D&D god (ala Odin or Gruumsh), a being who is worshiped as a god (ala Abalch-Re and Tektuktitilay), and a god-like being (ala Nyrlethotep, a yuan-ti abomination, or Rajaat). Like you, I'm all for the latter two, just not the first.
(Ok, this is just a joke, but it does give precedence for dieties blocking other dieties)
While I agree that there is no need for Gods and Athas is better for it, you statement that there never have been Gods is not based on canon. There are indeed hints of Gods throughout the various DS modules. Whether they where shams or not has never been specified, but there is no undeniable evidence that they never existed.
Wrong, dead wrong. Read City By The Silt Sea. In the section on Dregoth and his plans, it flat-out tells us that Athas has never had gods. So, wanna make that statement again, about there being no canon to back me up?
--if you absolutely insist, I can and will get you a page number, paragraph number, and line number NB
I can and will get you a page number, paragraph number, and line number NB
He is from somewhere in the machine....
I figured it out! Nero's Boot is a modron!
BEHOLD, WE ARE 2 OF 4, AND WE HAVE STUDIED ATHASIAN GAMING SUPPLEMENTS FOR MANY YEARS, AND HAVE MEMORIZED CERTAIN PORTIONS OF TEXT. PH34R US AND OUR 733T CANONICAL SKILLS.
--somewhere inside the machine NB
Hang in there! If WotC can get their act together in a short with the Boards, then you'll get your info soon.
Wrong, dead wrong. Read City By The Silt Sea. In the section on Dregoth and his plans, it flat-out tells us that Athas has never had gods. So, wanna make that statement again, about there being no canon to back me up?
--if you absolutely insist, I can and will get you a page number, paragraph number, and line number NB
You will have to wait until I get my copy in the mail, as I just purchased it recently. :D
Even so, by reading the earlier material (for example, in ST) I got the sense that there is indeed a posibility that gods might (not saying they did) have existed. If there is something to contradict it, I will happily accept my argument as wrong (one of the first rules of arguments, which I broke; never make sweeping assumptions unless you know ALL the facts
).az_zel, the whole 'gods in Athas' past' thing has been discussed to death on multiple occasions, and left wanting. I realize you have no way of knowing this since you're new, unless you did check the boards for years without being a member, but making a search later on when the Search function will be re-established for "gods" and "inconsistencies" will produce lengthly discussions, arguments and positions on the subject. Some good conclusions were drawned, IIRC, and proof produced to support it.
Hang in there! If WotC can get their act together in a short with the Boards, then you'll get your info soon.
I don't doubt it
. It was a topic my old group used to bandy about at times. I'll definetly take a look around once the boards are running properly.The only deity to ever exist on Athas' material plane.
Face the facts guys. Your all wrong and I am right! :fight!:
The Lady was, in a sense, the biggest mystery in the Multiverse.
The truth is that Ao is trapped in Athas, and that's why nobody in Forgotten Realms gets any power from him.
I bet he's a sorcerer/dragon-king also...