at the moment I am creating an NPC (White) Dragonspawn Sorcerer to one day oppose my party.
The DS Sorc will have a few touch spells to challenge the party (Deep Freeze/ Bestow Greater Curse and others).
Since a dragonspawns claw attack is always a secondary attack (and secondary attacks are always at -5 to hit (-2 with multiattack - see the D&D FAQ), does this apply to touch attacks, too?
Regards,
Rorin
Since a dragonspawns claw attack is always a secondary attack (and secondary attacks are always at -5 to hit (-2 with multiattack - see the D&D FAQ), does this apply to touch attacks, too?
No - a touch attack is a different beast than an attack using a natural weapon. A touch attack used to deliver a spell is considered an armed attack, but it ignores such things as armor and shield bonuses and natural armor bonuses. All the spawn is trying to do in such a case is touch the opponent, not deliver a damaging strike.
Cheers,
Cam
No - a touch attack is a different beast than an attack using a natural weapon. A touch attack used to deliver a spell is considered an armed attack, but it ignores such things as armor and shield bonuses and natural armor bonuses. All the spawn is trying to do in such a case is touch the opponent, not deliver a damaging strike.
Of course I do know this.
Still, he tries to TOUCH the opponent. He has to use his claw to do this, has he not?
So what you are trying to tell me is, that, if he uses his claw to DAMAGE an opponent, he is less able to do this than when he only tries to touch him?
The touch attack is considered an armed attack and ignores certain defenses, still he has to use his claw (secondary) attack to touch the opponent (he cant deliver a touch attack with a bite, could he?).
Lets say the dragonspawn in question is an Lv 16 Sorc (actually it is a little more complicated, but for the sake of simplicity) with a strength of 10 and with a permanent magic fang +3 on both of his claw attacks only (not his bite).
His Attack (standard action) would be: +8 (bite, primary).
Full Attack: bite +8, 2 claws +6 (-5 for secondary, +3 for magic fang)
He could use his claw instead of his bite when making a single attack as a standard action but would do so at the -5 penalty for using a secondary attack. (see page 29 of the faq or page 312 of the MM).
Nowhere have I read that a touch attack is an independent attack with its own attack calculation. Obviously, if a touch attack is independent of restrictions inherent in the creature (a claw being a secondary attack), we have to calculate the touch attack seperately.
In this case, regarding the above dragonspawn, its touch attack would be either +8 (base attack, no strength) or +11 (base attack, magic fang, no strength).
What would be the case?
Is a touch attack a separate (calculated) attack?
Is it part of being restricted because of being a secondary attack form?
Is a touch attack enhanced by a magic fang spell (for creatures)?
What if its attack is enhanced by weapon finesse, would the attack bonus count for touch attacks, too (of course it would, I think).
Where am I going with this?
If you consider a touch attack the same as a normal attack with a claw, except that it ignores certain protection (armor, etc.), it seems quite obvious that such an attack would be modified with the same modifiers, the normal attack would. (that includes the modifier for being a secondary attack)
If it is a seperate calculated attack, we have to answer the question what modifiers apply and dont apply (weapon finesse, magic modifiers).
I tend to think that a dragonspawn that wants to deliver a touch attack is penalized in this, because he is a little bit "clumsy" while using his claw and must do so at a penalty (-5 or -2 with multiattack).
Where is my error with this line of thinking?
Greetings,
Rorin
Of course I do know this.
Still, he tries to TOUCH the opponent. He has to use his claw to do this, has he not?
So what you are trying to tell me is, that, if he uses his claw to DAMAGE an opponent, he is less able to do this than when he only tries to touch him?
A character only gets one touch attack per round in most cases, especially when this is part of a spell that requires a melee touch attack to deliver the damage. Touch attacks aren't the same as attacks with weapons, manufactured or not, and are based on the character's base melee attack bonus. There's no specification on which body part the character is using, either - they could be striking out with a foot or tail, for example.
If a character wants to combine a touch spell with a natural weapon (such as a claw attack, unarmed strike, slam attack etc) they use the normal attack bonus of that attack and cause damage in addition to the effects of the touch spell. A dragonspawn that wishes to deliver a shocking grasp as well as deal claw damage would have the -2 or -5 attack penalty (depending on whether he had Multiattack or not) but would deal more damage with a hit. A dragonspawn that merely wishes to deliver the electricity damage to a target just makes a standard melee touch attack at his full bonus.
And yes, the dragonspawn could combine a shocking grasp or other touch spell with a bite. The spell doesn't specify that they need to use their hands/claws, after all.
Cheers,
Cam
so I assume, if said Sorcerer would like to deliver a touch attack against an opponent, he could do so with his claw at his full attack bonus and could add every appropriate modifier?
Said Sorcerer would have a touch attack of +8 (base) +3 (magic fang) + 2 (weapon finesse, assuming Dex 14) for a total of +13 Touch attack, right?
(in this case, he wont do any additional damage)
Rorin
Said Sorcerer would have a touch attack of +8 (base) +3 (magic fang) + 2 (weapon finesse, assuming Dex 14) for a total of +13 Touch attack, right?
(in this case, he wont do any additional damage)
As magic fang provides an enhancement bonus only to a natural weapon (in this case, the claw), it won't change the character's attack bonus for a melee touch attack. However, if he combined the spell with a claw attack, he'd get the enhancement bonus. You get the bad with the good.
Cheers,
Cam
Thx alot
Rorin
You can deliver touch attacks through natural weapons or unarmed strike (or weapon in the case of Thorn Knight of 4th level and higher). After all you can hold a touch attack 'charge' untill you actually manage to touch someone. SO You make ONE roll, but against two ACs, to deal the weapon damage you have to beat their regular AC, to deal the spell damage you have to beat the touch AC, if you beat both then you do damage with both.
On a side note, am I the only one who has considered the sweet mental image of a Knight of the Thorn with the 4th level weapon touch attack ability, weapon finesse, and a spiked chain? Reach, never have to worry about those pesky concentration checks, and come on, the idea of a bad guy using vampiric touch through a spiked chain is just sick.