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Bards renegades?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2004 8:12:17 I don't know if this has been covered yet (Can't seem to find the Search Forum function in this new layout), but would a bard be deemed a renegade by the Conclave and the gods of magic? I only ask because they are capable of casting primal sorcery spells above 2nd level, yet they have a patrons or dieties that watch over them in Branchala (good), Gilean (neutral), and Hiddukel (evil). If yes they would be deemed renegades, can they opt to take The Test even though they wield primal sorcery?
#2
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2004 9:33:21 This is one of those areas where better editing would have made for clarification.

The DLCS contradicts itself on this exact point. On page 261, talking about classes in the War of the Lance era, it says that bards did not have spellcasting powers during that age because they use primal sorcery, which doesn't function back then.

But then on page 272, talking about the early Age of Mortals, it says that bards got their magic from the moons the same as wizards did.

Interestingly, this conflicting statement means that bards pretty much never had spellcasting powers, except maybe going as far back as the Age of Dreams when primal sorcery and High Sorcery coexisted.

Personally I treat bards as Divine spellcasters rather than Arcane ones, especially since they have some important clerical spells, such as various cure spells on their list. From my perspective that accounts for why bards didn't become superheroes during the Age of Despair for being able to cast healing spells. Also, as divine spellcasters they do not fall under the umbrella of the Orders of High Sorcery and aren't regulated as arcane spellcasters.
#3
theredrobedwizard
Aug 31, 2004 9:33:23 The way I worked it is this: Bards can take the test if they take the Arcane Preparation feat and prepare all their spells.

Otherwise, most wizards wouldn't bother with hunting down bards, since there's that whole "lots of evil sorcerers running amok" thing going on. All bards do is mildly demoralize opponents and give minor competence bonuses to their allies.

Oh, and Mirage Arcana...

-TRRW
#4
iltharanos
Aug 31, 2004 10:03:13 Bards are spontaneous arcane spellcasters, just like sorcerers. This means they utilize primal sorcery. The reference to Bards acquiring their power from the Moons is erroneous. Per the recent relevations about the Wizards of High Sorcery in Wizards' Conclave we now know that the Conclave views all users of primal sorcery as renegades. It's doubtful the Conclave would let them take the Test unless they somehow experienced an epiphany and forever abandoned the use of primal sorcery.

Officially, Bards on Krynn can't cast healing spells.
#5
Nived
Aug 31, 2004 10:27:15 I've decided to houserule this. Bards are not exactly primal sorcerers and not exactly mystics but a strange blending of the two (so yes they get the healing spells). Gilean, Branchala, and Hiddukel are gods of bards in the traditional 'minstral' sense of the term. These new bards, like sorcerers and mystics haven't existed untill the age of mortals.

What does this mean? It means that for the most part bard spells are Arcane (with a couple of exceptions), and yes if they start casting in front of a WoHS they'll probably be labeled a sorcerer and a renegade, however a particularly clever one could pass himself off as a mystic. Spellcasting bards are rare in my campaign and are largely unknown. Most think of them as weak sorcerers or mystics, some bards even think of themselves in such a way since there's no history to tell them different. Yet ever sine Chaos' passing they've felt the magic in their music.
#6
Dragonhelm
Aug 31, 2004 11:25:47 Here's a thread on DL.com's forums that discusses the same topic. I've got several links there for some articles I wrote on the topic.

Bard thread
#7
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2004 20:40:38 Under 2nd Ed Bards would have been a perfectly viable class in DL since they had to memorize and prepare their spells, but since their refit for 3rd Ed they're now spontaneous spellcasters. I mean Quivellian Soth (sp??) the elven bard who wrote the Canticle and several other important peices of literature was a bard and I think I remember it being said he was a spellcaster on good terms with the ToHS, of course that could be wishful thinking on my part.
#8
iltharanos
Aug 31, 2004 20:58:24
Under 2nd Ed Bards would have been a perfectly viable class in DL since they had to memorize and prepare their spells, but since their refit for 3rd Ed they're now spontaneous spellcasters. I mean Quivellian Soth (sp??) the elven bard who wrote the Canticle and several other important peices of literature was a bard and I think I remember it being said he was a spellcaster on good terms with the ToHS, of course that could be wishful thinking on my part.

Using the WotL rulebook, Quevalin Soth could very well have been a Master/Chorister and was merely titled a bard.
#9
Dragonhelm
Aug 31, 2004 22:04:05 Quivalen, to my knowledge, had no magical aptitude. The term "bard" not only refers to the class in the PHB, but also to non-spellcasters, such as the master performer.

One of the interesting things I've had to contend with in some character conversions is the bard class. Both cases are from the Cataclysm era.

One such case was my irda wizard/bard. Now, in 3e terms, this combo would be impossible, as it would suggest that he was using two types of magic. However, 3e also gives me a nice option which fit nicely - the loremaster. In fact, I think it's a better fit.

The other case is my friend's old dwarf bard, who was a skilled healer. Now, this game is post-Cataclysm, so divine spellcasting classes are out. The way it's looking now, the master class multi-classed with wizard is probably the best fit. It isn't a perfect translation, but then again, some homebrewed rules were involved to begin with. Overall, it's pretty close.
#10
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2004 22:16:05
Quivalen, to my knowledge, had no magical aptitude. The term "bard" not only refers to the class in the PHB, but also to non-spellcasters, such as the master performer.

One of the interesting things I've had to contend with in some character conversions is the bard class. Both cases are from the Cataclysm era.

One such case was my irda wizard/bard. Now, in 3e terms, this combo would be impossible, as it would suggest that he was using two types of magic. However, 3e also gives me a nice option which fit nicely - the loremaster. In fact, I think it's a better fit.

The other case is my friend's old dwarf bard, who was a skilled healer. Now, this game is post-Cataclysm, so divine spellcasting classes are out. The way it's looking now, the master class multi-classed with wizard is probably the best fit. It isn't a perfect translation, but then again, some homebrewed rules were involved to begin with. Overall, it's pretty close.

So Bards haven't always been able to cast spells? There goes my idea to have a bardic spellcasting kender.
#11
Dragonhelm
Aug 31, 2004 23:22:36
So Bards haven't always been able to cast spells? There goes my idea to have a bardic spellcasting kender.

Why? With a little bit of tweaking, you can explain bardic magic in any number of ways. Here's an article that may help:

Bards of Krynn: Options for Bardic Magic

Actually, one of the pregenerated characters from the GenCon game was a kender cleric/chorister. The chorister prestige class gains bard spells as they go up in level.
#12
zombiegleemax
Sep 01, 2004 22:46:08
Why? With a little bit of tweaking, you can explain bardic magic in any number of ways. Here's an article that may help:

Bards of Krynn: Options for Bardic Magic

Actually, one of the pregenerated characters from the GenCon game was a kender cleric/chorister. The chorister prestige class gains bard spells as they go up in level.

Thanks for the link! Now all I have to do is convice Koranith to let me play a spellcasting kender bard!
#13
zombiegleemax
Sep 01, 2004 23:05:49
Thanks for the link! Now all I have to do is convice Koranith to let me play a spellcasting kender bard!

Uh yeah...not likely to happen. The kender you play are dangerous enough, to both the enemy and the party, without throwing spellcasting into the mix.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2004 8:12:17	I don't know if this has been covered yet (Can't seem to find the Search Forum function in this new layout), but would a bard be deemed a renegade by the Conclave and the gods of magic? I only ask because they are capable of casting primal sorcery spells above 2nd level, yet they have a patrons or dieties that watch over them in Branchala (good), Gilean (neutral), and Hiddukel (evil). If yes they would be deemed renegades, can they opt to take The Test even though they wield primal sorcery?
#2 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2004 9:33:21	This is one of those areas where better editing would have made for clarification. The DLCS contradicts itself on this exact point. On page 261, talking about classes in the War of the Lance era, it says that bards did not have spellcasting powers during that age because they use primal sorcery, which doesn't function back then. But then on page 272, talking about the early Age of Mortals, it says that bards got their magic from the moons the same as wizards did. Interestingly, this conflicting statement means that bards pretty much never had spellcasting powers, except maybe going as far back as the Age of Dreams when primal sorcery and High Sorcery coexisted. Personally I treat bards as Divine spellcasters rather than Arcane ones, especially since they have some important clerical spells, such as various cure spells on their list. From my perspective that accounts for why bards didn't become superheroes during the Age of Despair for being able to cast healing spells. Also, as divine spellcasters they do not fall under the umbrella of the Orders of High Sorcery and aren't regulated as arcane spellcasters.
#3 theredrobedwizard Aug 31, 2004 9:33:23	The way I worked it is this: Bards can take the test if they take the Arcane Preparation feat and prepare all their spells. Otherwise, most wizards wouldn't bother with hunting down bards, since there's that whole "lots of evil sorcerers running amok" thing going on. All bards do is mildly demoralize opponents and give minor competence bonuses to their allies. Oh, and Mirage Arcana... -TRRW
#4 iltharanos Aug 31, 2004 10:03:13	Bards are spontaneous arcane spellcasters, just like sorcerers. This means they utilize primal sorcery. The reference to Bards acquiring their power from the Moons is erroneous. Per the recent relevations about the Wizards of High Sorcery in Wizards' Conclave we now know that the Conclave views all users of primal sorcery as renegades. It's doubtful the Conclave would let them take the Test unless they somehow experienced an epiphany and forever abandoned the use of primal sorcery. Officially, Bards on Krynn can't cast healing spells.
#5 Nived Aug 31, 2004 10:27:15	I've decided to houserule this. Bards are not exactly primal sorcerers and not exactly mystics but a strange blending of the two (so yes they get the healing spells). Gilean, Branchala, and Hiddukel are gods of bards in the traditional 'minstral' sense of the term. These new bards, like sorcerers and mystics haven't existed untill the age of mortals. What does this mean? It means that for the most part bard spells are Arcane (with a couple of exceptions), and yes if they start casting in front of a WoHS they'll probably be labeled a sorcerer and a renegade, however a particularly clever one could pass himself off as a mystic. Spellcasting bards are rare in my campaign and are largely unknown. Most think of them as weak sorcerers or mystics, some bards even think of themselves in such a way since there's no history to tell them different. Yet ever sine Chaos' passing they've felt the magic in their music.
#6 Dragonhelm Aug 31, 2004 11:25:47	Here's a thread on DL.com's forums that discusses the same topic. I've got several links there for some articles I wrote on the topic. Bard thread
#7 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2004 20:40:38	Under 2nd Ed Bards would have been a perfectly viable class in DL since they had to memorize and prepare their spells, but since their refit for 3rd Ed they're now spontaneous spellcasters. I mean Quivellian Soth (sp??) the elven bard who wrote the Canticle and several other important peices of literature was a bard and I think I remember it being said he was a spellcaster on good terms with the ToHS, of course that could be wishful thinking on my part.
#8 iltharanos Aug 31, 2004 20:58:24	Under 2nd Ed Bards would have been a perfectly viable class in DL since they had to memorize and prepare their spells, but since their refit for 3rd Ed they're now spontaneous spellcasters. I mean Quivellian Soth (sp??) the elven bard who wrote the Canticle and several other important peices of literature was a bard and I think I remember it being said he was a spellcaster on good terms with the ToHS, of course that could be wishful thinking on my part. Using the WotL rulebook, Quevalin Soth could very well have been a Master/Chorister and was merely titled a bard.
#9 Dragonhelm Aug 31, 2004 22:04:05	Quivalen, to my knowledge, had no magical aptitude. The term "bard" not only refers to the class in the PHB, but also to non-spellcasters, such as the master performer. One of the interesting things I've had to contend with in some character conversions is the bard class. Both cases are from the Cataclysm era. One such case was my irda wizard/bard. Now, in 3e terms, this combo would be impossible, as it would suggest that he was using two types of magic. However, 3e also gives me a nice option which fit nicely - the loremaster. In fact, I think it's a better fit. The other case is my friend's old dwarf bard, who was a skilled healer. Now, this game is post-Cataclysm, so divine spellcasting classes are out. The way it's looking now, the master class multi-classed with wizard is probably the best fit. It isn't a perfect translation, but then again, some homebrewed rules were involved to begin with. Overall, it's pretty close.
#10 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2004 22:16:05	Quivalen, to my knowledge, had no magical aptitude. The term "bard" not only refers to the class in the PHB, but also to non-spellcasters, such as the master performer. One of the interesting things I've had to contend with in some character conversions is the bard class. Both cases are from the Cataclysm era. One such case was my irda wizard/bard. Now, in 3e terms, this combo would be impossible, as it would suggest that he was using two types of magic. However, 3e also gives me a nice option which fit nicely - the loremaster. In fact, I think it's a better fit. The other case is my friend's old dwarf bard, who was a skilled healer. Now, this game is post-Cataclysm, so divine spellcasting classes are out. The way it's looking now, the master class multi-classed with wizard is probably the best fit. It isn't a perfect translation, but then again, some homebrewed rules were involved to begin with. Overall, it's pretty close. So Bards haven't always been able to cast spells? There goes my idea to have a bardic spellcasting kender.
#11 Dragonhelm Aug 31, 2004 23:22:36	So Bards haven't always been able to cast spells? There goes my idea to have a bardic spellcasting kender. Why? With a little bit of tweaking, you can explain bardic magic in any number of ways. Here's an article that may help: Bards of Krynn: Options for Bardic Magic Actually, one of the pregenerated characters from the GenCon game was a kender cleric/chorister. The chorister prestige class gains bard spells as they go up in level.
#12 zombiegleemax Sep 01, 2004 22:46:08	Why? With a little bit of tweaking, you can explain bardic magic in any number of ways. Here's an article that may help: Bards of Krynn: Options for Bardic Magic Actually, one of the pregenerated characters from the GenCon game was a kender cleric/chorister. The chorister prestige class gains bard spells as they go up in level. Thanks for the link! Now all I have to do is convice Koranith to let me play a spellcasting kender bard!
#13 zombiegleemax Sep 01, 2004 23:05:49	Thanks for the link! Now all I have to do is convice Koranith to let me play a spellcasting kender bard! Uh yeah...not likely to happen. The kender you play are dangerous enough, to both the enemy and the party, without throwing spellcasting into the mix.