Can someone explain the cosmology? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Can someone explain the cosmology?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
wolffenjugend_dup
Aug 31, 2004 21:29:04 I just don't understand the (extremely confusing) diagram in the DLCS. So do the Nine Hells and the traditional Abyss exist within the DL cosmology? The DLCS indicates that there are many different hells and other dimensions that contains demons/devils.

The gods of good/evil/neutrality don't have their own planes of existance? Each branch shares their own plane?
#2
daedavias_dup
Aug 31, 2004 21:35:40 Nine Hells and D&D Abyss do not exist in DL, though one could put them in as separate areas of the DL Abyss. All of the gods of a specific pantheon share a plane of existance, though they are likely to have sequestered areas that belong specifically to themselves.
#3
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2004 21:50:48
Nine Hells and D&D Abyss do not exist in DL, though one could put them in as separate areas of the DL Abyss. All of the gods of a specific pantheon share a plane of existance, though they are likely to have sequestered areas that belong specifically to themselves.

It is ultimately up to you to determine how to proceed on t his. If you want to believe that Takhisis and Tiamat are one and the same, then you can believe that the "Abyss" that has been presented in DRAGONLANCE is actually the First Plane of Hell if that is what you want to do.
#4
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2004 22:09:25
It is ultimately up to you to determine how to proceed on t his. If you want to believe that Takhisis and Tiamat are one and the same, then you can believe that the "Abyss" that has been presented in DRAGONLANCE is actually the First Plane of Hell if that is what you want to do.

Of course it's been stated several times by pretty much everyone of importantance at SP and TSR (in days of yore) that they're not the same, not even related by marriage.
#5
iltharanos
Aug 31, 2004 22:22:55
I just don't understand the (extremely confusing) diagram in the DLCS. So do the Nine Hells and the traditional Abyss exist within the DL cosmology? The DLCS indicates that there are many different hells and other dimensions that contains demons/devils.

The gods of good/evil/neutrality don't have their own planes of existance? Each branch shares their own plane?

The Nine Hells and the traditional Abyss do not exist in Dragonlance's current cosmology.

There are three main outer planes, in the traditional sense of the word.

1. Dome of Creation: Where all the good deities reside, along with the various celestials.

2. Hidden Vale: Where the neutral deities reside, along with such creatures as slaad, inevitables, etc.

3. The Abyss: The home of the evil deities, replete with demons, devils, and so on.

Go check out the Dragonlance DM Screen, the booklet within contains a plethora of information concerning the relationship of the various deities of Krynn with the multitude of outsiders in existence.
#6
cam_banks
Aug 31, 2004 22:29:28 The Dome of Creation, Hidden Vale and Abyss are vast. Within their borders, such as they are, whole realms of good, neutrality and evil overlap and interlace with each other, shaped by the gods and populated with celestials and fiends, elementals and archetypes. They are much larger than Krynn itself is, and embody all that is good, all that is neutrality and all that is evil in the outer planes.

Each god typically imparts his own preferences and traits upon an aspected section of one of the three planes, so that when their servants and agencies travel to them or are brought before them, the plane will appear as they so command. The Abyss is not just a big empty waste like it appeared to Tasslehoff. In fact, it is also a violent blood-bath realm, a realm of secrets and lies, a realm of graves and tombs and crypts, and a realm of endless churning oceans struck repeatedly by lightning.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
iltharanos
Aug 31, 2004 22:31:35
Of course it's been stated several times by pretty much everyone of importantance at SP and TSR (in days of yore) that they're not the same, not even related by marriage.

Exactly. This is the official stance. Takhisis does not equal Tiamat. Paladine does not equal Bahamut. The Nine Hells of traditional D&D cosmology does not exist in Krynn's cosmology. Of course we can all do differently in our own personal campaigns, but that approach hardly helps the person that wants the official stance on matters.

As an example, I know little of the Conan stories, but I do know that Conan became King of Aquilonia. But let's say I don't, and then I post a question concerning the fate of Conan and whether or not he becomes king on a message board devoted to Conan. It hardly helps me when someone comes along and says, "Well, in my campaign, Conan dies in the womb because his mother miscarried."

Note: This is just a pet peeve of mind concerning "official" answers and is not meant as a personal attack on anyone.
#8
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2004 23:10:34 Since I like to maintain the overall connectedness of the various D&D worlds, even in the face of the annoying 3E development of alternative cosmologies, I have a compromise that I personally utilize.

The Dome of Creation, the Hidden Vale and the Abyss are all demiplanes in the Ethereal Plane. In keeping with the DLCS references to the godly realms sheltering Krynn from the hazards of the Ethereal Sea I treat the godly realms as planar breakwaters keeping the rest of the planes at a distance.

It is possible to travel Beyond Krynn into the Great Wheel cosmology, but in order to do so, one must traverse the appropriate godly realms that in turn connect to the Outer Planes. The Dome of Creation naturally holds the connections to the Celestial planes. The Hidden Vale connects to the Neutral planes. And of course the Abyss connects to the Lower planes.

This boundary explains Krynn's relative isolation from other worlds and planes. Since the godly realms must be traversed in order to travel Beyond, a certain amount of divine consent is usually required to do so. This also works the other direction, preventing Krynn from being randomly "contaminated" by undesired planar incursions. While the various gods may draw planar creatures through their realms to serve them or even oeprate on Krynn, it is nigh-impossible for these creatures to invade Krynn on their own.

When Takhisis moved the planet and it was no longer surrounded by the godly realms, this line of defense was gone. That was what made it possible for alien dragons traversing the Ethereal Sea to come to Krynn.

From a mortal perspective, travel to the godly planes is daunting enough. Travelling beyond them is almost inconceivable. But it is possible.

Anyway, this is what I use.
#9
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2004 23:17:23
Since I like to maintain the overall connectedness of the various D&D worlds, even in the face of the annoying 3E development of alternative cosmologies, I have a compromise that I personally utilize.

The Dome of Creation, the Hidden Vale and the Abyss are all demiplanes in the Ethereal Plane. In keeping with the DLCS references to the godly realms sheltering Krynn from the hazards of the Ethereal Sea I treat the godly realms as planar breakwaters keeping the rest of the planes at a distance.

It is possible to travel Beyond Krynn into the Great Wheel cosmology, but in order to do so, one must traverse the appropriate godly realms that in turn connect to the Outer Planes. The Dome of Creation naturally holds the connections to the Celestial planes. The Hidden Vale connects to the Neutral planes. And of course the Abyss connects to the Lower planes.

This boundary explains Krynn's relative isolation from other worlds and planes. Since the godly realms must be traversed in order to travel Beyond, a certain amount of divine consent is usually required to do so. This also works the other direction, preventing Krynn from being randomly "contaminated" by undesired planar incursions. While the various gods may draw planar creatures through their realms to serve them or even oeprate on Krynn, it is nigh-impossible for these creatures to invade Krynn on their own.

When Takhisis moved the planet and it was no longer surrounded by the godly realms, this line of defense was gone. That was what made it possible for alien dragons traversing the Ethereal Sea to come to Krynn.

From a mortal perspective, travel to the godly planes is daunting enough. Travelling beyond them is almost inconceivable. But it is possible.

Anyway, this is what I use.

That sounds rather reasonable. That even keeps the whole Tiamat/Takhisis and Bahmut/Paladine issue under control, as they exsist in different and seperate realms and therfore cannot be the same person.
#10
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2004 23:20:26 All of this is over my head. All I know is that I'm playing a Kender cleric in the 3.5 game and Minotaur ranger in the 3.0 game that Koranith DM's. Leave me out of the planes. trains, and automobiles...although we met a gnome that was trying to attach a steam powered engine to a uni-cycle.
#11
zombiegleemax
Sep 01, 2004 21:41:36
That sounds rather reasonable. That even keeps the whole Tiamat/Takhisis and Bahmut/Paladine issue under control, as they exsist in different and seperate realms and therfore cannot be the same person.

The old 1E Manual of the Planes did in fact suggest that Takhisis and Tiamat were one being. But the obvious problem with that is that Takhisis is a greater diety whereas Tiamat is only a lesser one. The same problem exists for Paladine and Bahamut.

However, a resolution to that problem existed in the back of that same book. One of the abilities that greater gods were listed as having was the ability to create an "Aspect", which was in essence a lesser god that resembled the greater god that created it.

Paladine and Takhisis existed before the creation of Krynn, though what they did back in that ancient antiquity is unknown to Krynnish mortals. But perhaps Bahamut and Tiamat are aspects of them that were spun off and allowed to go their own ways when Paladine and Takhisis became focused on overseeing Krynn?

Those aspects eventually went on to become independent gods (albeit lesser ones) in their own right on other worlds while the greater gods they were created from remained as leaders of the gods of Krynn.

Since Bahamut and Tiamat were created from Paladine and Takhisis they resemble them in many ways. But they are no longer the same beings and are no more a part of the Krynnish pantheons than the gods of Oerth or Toril are.

How's that for a theory?
#12
zombiegleemax
Sep 01, 2004 22:24:48
The old 1E Manual of the Planes did in fact suggest that Takhisis and Tiamat were one being. But the obvious problem with that is that Takhisis is a greater diety whereas Tiamat is only a lesser one. The same problem exists for Paladine and Bahamut.

However, a resolution to that problem existed in the back of that same book. One of the abilities that greater gods were listed as having was the ability to create an "Aspect", which was in essence a lesser god that resembled the greater god that created it.

Paladine and Takhisis existed before the creation of Krynn, though what they did back in that ancient antiquity is unknown to Krynnish mortals. But perhaps Bahamut and Tiamat are aspects of them that were spun off and allowed to go their own ways when Paladine and Takhisis became focused on overseeing Krynn?

Those aspects eventually went on to become independent gods (albeit lesser ones) in their own right on other worlds while the greater gods they were created from remained as leaders of the gods of Krynn.

Since Bahamut and Tiamat were created from Paladine and Takhisis they resemble them in many ways. But they are no longer the same beings and are no more a part of the Krynnish pantheons than the gods of Oerth or Toril are.

How's that for a theory?

The Manual of the Planes from any edtion of D&D has never been acknowledged as cannon. In fact it's been stated by Tracy and Margaret that there is no relation between Tiamat/Bahamut and Takhisis/Paladine. I saw someplace that the guy (sorry can't remember his name) who made the original cosmology based part of Takhisis and Paladine off of Tiamat and Bahamut but that they were not enhanced carbon copies or even related/aspects of each other.
#13
zombiegleemax
Sep 02, 2004 21:26:14 As a point of simple honesty, Takhisis and Paladine are knock-offs of Bahamut and Tiamat. I'm sorry, but a platinum dragon and a five-headed chromatic dragon are just a little too distinctive to pass off the resemblence as coincidence. I mean this from a writing and use of materials perspective. Weiss and Hicks did not just pull Paladine and Takhisis out of nothing. They enhanced existing D&D elements for use in what was at the time the most story-rich campaign setting yet developed. Just as they changed dragons in general to make them less monsters and more characters they added additional layers of substance to Paladine and Takhisis to make them real gods and not just pumped-up dragons.

The Manuals of the Planes, by the way, are official rulebooks (unlike some of the d20 stuff that is out there) for the (A)D&D games and always have been. Some people just didn't use them because the planes were not a part of their adventures in any meaningful way.

My musings however are of course not canon. They are simply how I deal with the problems created by my unwillingness to pretend that the various D&D worlds have no connection to one another. If you are prepared to treat Krynn as wholly autonomous without any connections to any other campaign worlds then you have no problem. It simply seemed a bit wierd to me that there could be two chromatic dragons and two platinum dragons in the multiverse that had utterly no connection to each other.

So, given the material at hand I worked out an explanation that satisfied me. You will note that I did not say that Paladine and Takhisis and Bahamut and Tiamat were still the same beings as I treat them now.

My explanation assumes that whatever divine split took place happened in the ancient days before the gods came from Beyond at the behest of the High God to create Krynn. If a Krynnish mortal were to travel Beyond today into the Great Wheel and by some chance encounter Tiamat she would not know anything about this world of Krynn that he comes from since she herself has never been there. And if she sought entry to Krynn she would likely be denied by the gods because she is not really one of their number.

As I said, these are just the explanations I came up with to establish a reasonable suspension of disbelief around some problematic elements of the system. I am posting them here simply to share ideas. If you don't like these ideas then simply ignore them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wolffenjugend_dup Aug 31, 2004 21:29:04	I just don't understand the (extremely confusing) diagram in the DLCS. So do the Nine Hells and the traditional Abyss exist within the DL cosmology? The DLCS indicates that there are many different hells and other dimensions that contains demons/devils. The gods of good/evil/neutrality don't have their own planes of existance? Each branch shares their own plane?
#2 daedavias_dup Aug 31, 2004 21:35:40	Nine Hells and D&D Abyss do not exist in DL, though one could put them in as separate areas of the DL Abyss. All of the gods of a specific pantheon share a plane of existance, though they are likely to have sequestered areas that belong specifically to themselves.
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2004 21:50:48	Nine Hells and D&D Abyss do not exist in DL, though one could put them in as separate areas of the DL Abyss. All of the gods of a specific pantheon share a plane of existance, though they are likely to have sequestered areas that belong specifically to themselves. It is ultimately up to you to determine how to proceed on t his. If you want to believe that Takhisis and Tiamat are one and the same, then you can believe that the "Abyss" that has been presented in DRAGONLANCE is actually the First Plane of Hell if that is what you want to do.
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2004 22:09:25	It is ultimately up to you to determine how to proceed on t his. If you want to believe that Takhisis and Tiamat are one and the same, then you can believe that the "Abyss" that has been presented in DRAGONLANCE is actually the First Plane of Hell if that is what you want to do. Of course it's been stated several times by pretty much everyone of importantance at SP and TSR (in days of yore) that they're not the same, not even related by marriage.
#5 iltharanos Aug 31, 2004 22:22:55	I just don't understand the (extremely confusing) diagram in the DLCS. So do the Nine Hells and the traditional Abyss exist within the DL cosmology? The DLCS indicates that there are many different hells and other dimensions that contains demons/devils. The gods of good/evil/neutrality don't have their own planes of existance? Each branch shares their own plane? The Nine Hells and the traditional Abyss do not exist in Dragonlance's current cosmology. There are three main outer planes, in the traditional sense of the word. 1. Dome of Creation: Where all the good deities reside, along with the various celestials. 2. Hidden Vale: Where the neutral deities reside, along with such creatures as slaad, inevitables, etc. 3. The Abyss: The home of the evil deities, replete with demons, devils, and so on. Go check out the Dragonlance DM Screen, the booklet within contains a plethora of information concerning the relationship of the various deities of Krynn with the multitude of outsiders in existence.
#6 cam_banks Aug 31, 2004 22:29:28	The Dome of Creation, Hidden Vale and Abyss are vast. Within their borders, such as they are, whole realms of good, neutrality and evil overlap and interlace with each other, shaped by the gods and populated with celestials and fiends, elementals and archetypes. They are much larger than Krynn itself is, and embody all that is good, all that is neutrality and all that is evil in the outer planes. Each god typically imparts his own preferences and traits upon an aspected section of one of the three planes, so that when their servants and agencies travel to them or are brought before them, the plane will appear as they so command. The Abyss is not just a big empty waste like it appeared to Tasslehoff. In fact, it is also a violent blood-bath realm, a realm of secrets and lies, a realm of graves and tombs and crypts, and a realm of endless churning oceans struck repeatedly by lightning. Cheers, Cam
#7 iltharanos Aug 31, 2004 22:31:35	Of course it's been stated several times by pretty much everyone of importantance at SP and TSR (in days of yore) that they're not the same, not even related by marriage. Exactly. This is the official stance. Takhisis does not equal Tiamat. Paladine does not equal Bahamut. The Nine Hells of traditional D&D cosmology does not exist in Krynn's cosmology. Of course we can all do differently in our own personal campaigns, but that approach hardly helps the person that wants the official stance on matters. As an example, I know little of the Conan stories, but I do know that Conan became King of Aquilonia. But let's say I don't, and then I post a question concerning the fate of Conan and whether or not he becomes king on a message board devoted to Conan. It hardly helps me when someone comes along and says, "Well, in my campaign, Conan dies in the womb because his mother miscarried." Note: This is just a pet peeve of mind concerning "official" answers and is not meant as a personal attack on anyone.
#8 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2004 23:10:34	Since I like to maintain the overall connectedness of the various D&D worlds, even in the face of the annoying 3E development of alternative cosmologies, I have a compromise that I personally utilize. The Dome of Creation, the Hidden Vale and the Abyss are all demiplanes in the Ethereal Plane. In keeping with the DLCS references to the godly realms sheltering Krynn from the hazards of the Ethereal Sea I treat the godly realms as planar breakwaters keeping the rest of the planes at a distance. It is possible to travel Beyond Krynn into the Great Wheel cosmology, but in order to do so, one must traverse the appropriate godly realms that in turn connect to the Outer Planes. The Dome of Creation naturally holds the connections to the Celestial planes. The Hidden Vale connects to the Neutral planes. And of course the Abyss connects to the Lower planes. This boundary explains Krynn's relative isolation from other worlds and planes. Since the godly realms must be traversed in order to travel Beyond, a certain amount of divine consent is usually required to do so. This also works the other direction, preventing Krynn from being randomly "contaminated" by undesired planar incursions. While the various gods may draw planar creatures through their realms to serve them or even oeprate on Krynn, it is nigh-impossible for these creatures to invade Krynn on their own. When Takhisis moved the planet and it was no longer surrounded by the godly realms, this line of defense was gone. That was what made it possible for alien dragons traversing the Ethereal Sea to come to Krynn. From a mortal perspective, travel to the godly planes is daunting enough. Travelling beyond them is almost inconceivable. But it is possible. Anyway, this is what I use.
#9 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2004 23:17:23	Since I like to maintain the overall connectedness of the various D&D worlds, even in the face of the annoying 3E development of alternative cosmologies, I have a compromise that I personally utilize. The Dome of Creation, the Hidden Vale and the Abyss are all demiplanes in the Ethereal Plane. In keeping with the DLCS references to the godly realms sheltering Krynn from the hazards of the Ethereal Sea I treat the godly realms as planar breakwaters keeping the rest of the planes at a distance. It is possible to travel Beyond Krynn into the Great Wheel cosmology, but in order to do so, one must traverse the appropriate godly realms that in turn connect to the Outer Planes. The Dome of Creation naturally holds the connections to the Celestial planes. The Hidden Vale connects to the Neutral planes. And of course the Abyss connects to the Lower planes. This boundary explains Krynn's relative isolation from other worlds and planes. Since the godly realms must be traversed in order to travel Beyond, a certain amount of divine consent is usually required to do so. This also works the other direction, preventing Krynn from being randomly "contaminated" by undesired planar incursions. While the various gods may draw planar creatures through their realms to serve them or even oeprate on Krynn, it is nigh-impossible for these creatures to invade Krynn on their own. When Takhisis moved the planet and it was no longer surrounded by the godly realms, this line of defense was gone. That was what made it possible for alien dragons traversing the Ethereal Sea to come to Krynn. From a mortal perspective, travel to the godly planes is daunting enough. Travelling beyond them is almost inconceivable. But it is possible. Anyway, this is what I use. That sounds rather reasonable. That even keeps the whole Tiamat/Takhisis and Bahmut/Paladine issue under control, as they exsist in different and seperate realms and therfore cannot be the same person.
#10 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2004 23:20:26	All of this is over my head. All I know is that I'm playing a Kender cleric in the 3.5 game and Minotaur ranger in the 3.0 game that Koranith DM's. Leave me out of the planes. trains, and automobiles...although we met a gnome that was trying to attach a steam powered engine to a uni-cycle.
#11 zombiegleemax Sep 01, 2004 21:41:36	That sounds rather reasonable. That even keeps the whole Tiamat/Takhisis and Bahmut/Paladine issue under control, as they exsist in different and seperate realms and therfore cannot be the same person. The old 1E Manual of the Planes did in fact suggest that Takhisis and Tiamat were one being. But the obvious problem with that is that Takhisis is a greater diety whereas Tiamat is only a lesser one. The same problem exists for Paladine and Bahamut. However, a resolution to that problem existed in the back of that same book. One of the abilities that greater gods were listed as having was the ability to create an "Aspect", which was in essence a lesser god that resembled the greater god that created it. Paladine and Takhisis existed before the creation of Krynn, though what they did back in that ancient antiquity is unknown to Krynnish mortals. But perhaps Bahamut and Tiamat are aspects of them that were spun off and allowed to go their own ways when Paladine and Takhisis became focused on overseeing Krynn? Those aspects eventually went on to become independent gods (albeit lesser ones) in their own right on other worlds while the greater gods they were created from remained as leaders of the gods of Krynn. Since Bahamut and Tiamat were created from Paladine and Takhisis they resemble them in many ways. But they are no longer the same beings and are no more a part of the Krynnish pantheons than the gods of Oerth or Toril are. How's that for a theory?
#12 zombiegleemax Sep 01, 2004 22:24:48	The old 1E Manual of the Planes did in fact suggest that Takhisis and Tiamat were one being. But the obvious problem with that is that Takhisis is a greater diety whereas Tiamat is only a lesser one. The same problem exists for Paladine and Bahamut. However, a resolution to that problem existed in the back of that same book. One of the abilities that greater gods were listed as having was the ability to create an "Aspect", which was in essence a lesser god that resembled the greater god that created it. Paladine and Takhisis existed before the creation of Krynn, though what they did back in that ancient antiquity is unknown to Krynnish mortals. But perhaps Bahamut and Tiamat are aspects of them that were spun off and allowed to go their own ways when Paladine and Takhisis became focused on overseeing Krynn? Those aspects eventually went on to become independent gods (albeit lesser ones) in their own right on other worlds while the greater gods they were created from remained as leaders of the gods of Krynn. Since Bahamut and Tiamat were created from Paladine and Takhisis they resemble them in many ways. But they are no longer the same beings and are no more a part of the Krynnish pantheons than the gods of Oerth or Toril are. How's that for a theory? The Manual of the Planes from any edtion of D&D has never been acknowledged as cannon. In fact it's been stated by Tracy and Margaret that there is no relation between Tiamat/Bahamut and Takhisis/Paladine. I saw someplace that the guy (sorry can't remember his name) who made the original cosmology based part of Takhisis and Paladine off of Tiamat and Bahamut but that they were not enhanced carbon copies or even related/aspects of each other.
#13 zombiegleemax Sep 02, 2004 21:26:14	As a point of simple honesty, Takhisis and Paladine are knock-offs of Bahamut and Tiamat. I'm sorry, but a platinum dragon and a five-headed chromatic dragon are just a little too distinctive to pass off the resemblence as coincidence. I mean this from a writing and use of materials perspective. Weiss and Hicks did not just pull Paladine and Takhisis out of nothing. They enhanced existing D&D elements for use in what was at the time the most story-rich campaign setting yet developed. Just as they changed dragons in general to make them less monsters and more characters they added additional layers of substance to Paladine and Takhisis to make them real gods and not just pumped-up dragons. The Manuals of the Planes, by the way, are official rulebooks (unlike some of the d20 stuff that is out there) for the (A)D&D games and always have been. Some people just didn't use them because the planes were not a part of their adventures in any meaningful way. My musings however are of course not canon. They are simply how I deal with the problems created by my unwillingness to pretend that the various D&D worlds have no connection to one another. If you are prepared to treat Krynn as wholly autonomous without any connections to any other campaign worlds then you have no problem. It simply seemed a bit wierd to me that there could be two chromatic dragons and two platinum dragons in the multiverse that had utterly no connection to each other. So, given the material at hand I worked out an explanation that satisfied me. You will note that I did not say that Paladine and Takhisis and Bahamut and Tiamat were still the same beings as I treat them now. My explanation assumes that whatever divine split took place happened in the ancient days before the gods came from Beyond at the behest of the High God to create Krynn. If a Krynnish mortal were to travel Beyond today into the Great Wheel and by some chance encounter Tiamat she would not know anything about this world of Krynn that he comes from since she herself has never been there. And if she sought entry to Krynn she would likely be denied by the gods because she is not really one of their number. As I said, these are just the explanations I came up with to establish a reasonable suspension of disbelief around some problematic elements of the system. I am posting them here simply to share ideas. If you don't like these ideas then simply ignore them.