He never returned to the Forgotten Realms because, for one, Ravenloft is durn hard to get out of and, secondly, because he's dead. Later books have brought him back, but then again, all settings have some canon that's better ignored than acknowledged.
Can some one please explain to me ... why hasn't he come back?
Priceless!
He's dead? Since when? I thought he was the poster boy of Ravenloft.
Don't mock me, that hurts
He's dead? Since when? I thought he was the poster boy of Ravenloft.
Well, one could argue he has been dead ever since he became a vampire .. ahem, but that's not the point :D
In Vampire of the Mists, JS was destroyed by direct exposure to the sun (which he did voluntarily) after helping defeat Strahd (temporarily, mind you) with an artifact sacred to the local sun god.
Most readers believed him gone for good.
Alas, it wasn't to be. In Children of the Night - Vampires, we learned (and this was confirmed in Champions of Darkness) that the Dark Powers had simply "smuggled" him to a hidden place long enough for his wounds to heal and have now returned him to Ravenloft. Why? Because, apparently, his plight amuses them and they don't let a "toy" escape that easily. Remember, in Ravenloft no good deed ever goes unpunished...
However, "most" RL fans wished they would have let him die in peace and so are kind of unhappy at the current situation.
...but then again, all settings have some canon that's better ignored than acknowledged.
True. God knows I do my share of ignoring certain elements in RL! ;)
He's dead? Since when? I thought he was the poster boy of Ravenloft.
He's certainly one of the more popular Ravenloft characters, which was precisely why he was brought back, out of some Marvel Comics-esque desire to milk that popularity for all it's worth despite the fact that it only serves to cheapen the character and his death (and doesn't jive with the general tone of Ravenloft - that of ones damnation and redemption being an aspect of free choice rather than the Dark Powers directly intervening).
But the entire span of being introduced to the character then seeing him die all takes place in the novel Vampire of the Mists.
Wait isn't he in some of the earlier forgotten realm short stories or I'm imagining things again
The FR stories were written after VotM.
And his 'resurrection' for Children of the Night: Vampires came about from the collision of two factors:
1) The designers wanted Jander in the book.
2) Someone higher-up vetoed the original plan of setting the adventure during the events of the novel.
Matthew L. Martin
My first experience with Jander was in CotN: Vamps (a great product and one of my all time favs). Given that I like the idea of PCs having to work with shakey allies they can't quite trust I enjoyed his write up there. Seriously would you work with a vampire who told you he only feeds on evil people? And wanted to do good?
After the fact I went back and read VotM. Which I also liked despite the ending which didn't appeal to me so much (I find it hard to believe that magic obsessed Strahd or even perhaps Azalin never recognized the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind as an item of power).
One thing I don't like about Jander is his very popularity. Like Drizz't in the FR he suffers IMO from over exposure. I also wasn't wild about his write up in CoD since I don't think he should be let off the ethical hook of having to feed off of humans (he can feed on animals in 3.5).
As for escaping RL...well I admit I laughed when I read that too Emerald Fox. Vecna the then demi-god got out by beating the DPs, and Soth got out by coming to terms with his crimes and embracing them (more or less). Other than those two I don't think any prominent NPCs have ever escaped. And I'm not really sure Vecna fully counts since his capture always seemed like a breach of the "dark pact" between the DPs and the other dieties of the cosmos. If Azalin couldn't figure out a way to escape over the years before he became a trapped DL (w/ Strahd's help no less) why should we suppose Jander can?
-Eric Gorman
.I don't think he ever actually appeared in any FR novels before his debut in VotM. He does have flash backs to various FR places in that book, Dagger Dale, Waterdeep, etc. but I don't believe anyone has ever written any Jander Sunstar prequels.
He appears in....
Realms of Valor
Realms of Infamy
Realms of Magic
I don't think he ever actually appeared in any FR novels before his debut in VotM. He does have flash backs to various FR places in that book, Dagger Dale, Waterdeep, etc. but I don't believe anyone has ever written any Jander Sunstar prequels.
That would be One Last Drink in Realms of Valor, The Quiet Place in Realms of Magic, and Blood Sport in Realms of Infamy, if I am not mistaken.
Who wrote the stories? Are they any good? Do they portray Jander as he was in VotM or in a more FR feel?
(I find it hard to believe that magic obsessed Strahd or even perhaps Azalin never recognized the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind as an item of power).
I don't think Azalin had actually appeared in RL yet, at the time of Jander's sojourn with Strahd. After the end of the novel, Jander's mortal friends would have hidden the Holy Symbol to keep it out of Strahd's clutches and use against lesser vampires, even if it couldn't kill Strahd himself. Note that in the present era, the Holy Symbol is lost to heroes and villains alike; it's what the Keepers of the Black Feather have been searching for, so I guess it went missing during the period between Jander's "death" and the founding of that organization.
As for Strahd's not finding it, remember that he'd known it simply as a bauble his kid brother wore out of sentiment. If there's one thing that's consistent about Strahd besides his obsession with Tatyana, it's his (self-exonerating) contempt for Sergei and everything his brother ever said, did, or was. Acknowledging that the "Priest's Pendant" might have spiritual value would be like admitting that his brother *was* a man of great virtue, and that cuts too close to admitting the true magnitude of his own Evil, for killing Sergei. Strahd simply can't face that.
Its not exactly clear when Azalin shows up but you may be right that the events in VotM take place entirely before Azalin's arrival. I personally like the idea of some overlap and think that the way the relation with the vistani is portrayed is comparable to the point where Azalin arrives. But admitedly that's just me.
On the other hand it also seems crazy to me that the Holy Symbol was lost to the Cult of the Morninglord based on the events of the novel. Who took it and why isn't that a major event in RL history? IMO the novels treatment of RLs most important artifact (well perhaps second to the apparatus) isn't its greatest strength.
-Eric Gorman
As for the Holy Symbol or Ravenkind do you think a vampire would wander about his mamoth ancient castle checking each and every item to see if it just happens to be magical or enchantable?
Candlesticks? Nope.
First steak knife? Nope.
Second steak knife? Nope.
Bookmark? Nope.
Immortal or not that's just silly.
Especially when said item is a holy symbol! Items that causes pain when you touch it and repells you when you see it. Can you imagine Dracula checking crosses to see if any are valuable?
I also can't imagine him walking around his entire castle casting detect magic spells ever two minutes to see if anything glows in that corner. I can't picture a dignified vampire looting each and every ring, necklace and valuables shiny from the bodies of his slain then checking each to see if it is enchanted. Only adventurers are **** enough do that.
His brother was a priest and he had a holy symbol. You just accept they have those. Sometimes many of those. It is not something that stands out and would raise any eyebrows.
Plus Strahd is old and wise now but at the time he was young and ignorant of both his weaknesses and possible mortality. Not to mention probably a tad overconfident. He was bound to make mistakes and miss the obvious. Now on the other hand...
As for it being lost, despite being a holy relic, do you know the location of, say, the Holy Grail perhaps. Ark of the covenant? Spear of destiny? Holy rood? And that's just the one religion. Religious items are forever being stolen, lost, looted, etc. Strahd maybe sent someone to steal it back only to have them slain by bandits or betray him, or perhaps the temple was broken into one day. Perhaps it was hidden to keep it safe but the holder was killed and its location lost.
Its absence is telling but a good writer takes what he is given, a major artifact missing, and writes a story around that.
Plus having it lost is a quick adventure hook for players. And not having it on display explains why Strahd hasn't taken it back and had it destroyed and makes it harder for every PC in Barovia not to nick it to use it every time they have trouble against undead...
Just my opinions. I do like the novel and rank it in the top 3 of the Ravenloft line.
-Eric Gorman
Especially when said item is a holy symbol! Items that causes pain when you touch it and repells you when you see it. Can you imagine Dracula checking crosses to see if any are valuable?
Yes, actually... especially if the mere sight of said holy symbol was painful enough, and it's so obviously shimmering with power. Dracula'd try to destroy it; Strahd would try to contain it or exploit it; even Scooby Doo would have pointed out the irony.
If he (Strahd, that is) was aware of its power. HvF is right, in VotM Strahd had a rather blase/smug attitude toward what should have bothered him a great deal, beyond just being blindly arrogant and spiteful toward his brother. If the mere presence of a paladin in his domain can supposedly give Strahd a migraine, what do you think this constant blip on his radar was doing? Chalk it up to author's license -- Christie Golden is allowed the occasional rules inconsistency in her career. 'Twas only a story, and 'tis only a game.
Azalin appeared and was around during some of the events of VotM, but simply was not mentioned in the book. Must have been lurking around corners.
Actually, VotM concludes around 499 BC. Azalin doesn't show up for another 40+ years.
And why does Mangrum always seem to show up just to probe me wrong??
Time-travel paradoxes always make my head hurt...
Oh, and IIRC the powers against vampires only work if the Icon of Ravenkind is held and weilded by a Priest. Presumably unless the powers are invoked it is just a simple Holy Symbol.
Not unless I misread its description in Gaz I. There is no mention of its higher power being available only if wielded by a priest. So, in this instance, it seems Christie Golden was right when she allowed JS to use it.
And why does Mangrum always seem to show up just to probe me wrong??
Once a Kargatane, always a Kargatane :D
Okay, whiping out Gaz I.
Power 1: Acts as an amulet of undead turning. This presumably need to be invoked. So Strahd wouldn't necassarily notice this.
Power 2: Any sunlight vulnerable undead touching it gets zapped. Once again, not something commonly tested as few vampires go around touching holy symbols.
Power 3: When presented against vampires is flares with true sunlight. Emphasis on the word presented.
So yeah, it would be a valuable holy symbol but still not something Strahd would have just 'sensed' when within 10 feet of. Without a weilder is was just another holy symbol.
In the end of Vampire of the Mists, Jander does not actually die. We are never told that. We are left to assume that, based upon the fact that he waits for the sun to come over the horizon. But we never actually get a death scene. So the Mists snatching him up in CotN: Vampires, is actually perfectly legitimate, since he never actually died in a canon product.
It seems pretty obvious Christie Golden wanted Jander to die at the end of VotM. Indeed, the last chapter illustrates clearly the fact that JS finally understands how he became the unwilling pawn of the DP and won't stand for it anymore.
By bringing him back from the dead (so to speak), those who used him in later accessories succeeded only in cheapening his noble death.
By bringing him back from the dead (so to speak), those who used him in later accessories succeeded only in cheapening his noble death.
Agreed.
I agree it was cheesy how the Mists just snatched him but I think it's not a bad idea to "save him". Anyhow, it's always up to individual DMs. I sure would give Jander some Knowledge (RL) ranks!
In a sense, Jander figuring out the DP existance and manipulation could warrant that they foil his plan to die. He tried to foil their plans so why wouldn't they?
Because, that's not how the Dark Powers work.
It's repeatedly been made clear that an individual's damnation or an individual's redemption is, essentially, up to the individual. The Dark Powers punish or "reward" (by allowing those souls that redeem themselves to reduce how close they are to becoming Dark Lords), but the actions that bring about those punishments or rewards are done by the individual. About the only exception is Strahd, who's unique, anyway, for being the lynch pin of the Dread Plane.
There are agents that disrupt new Dark Lords or others from redeeming themselves - the Furies, the Vistani to a degree, but those aren't direct agents of the Dark Powers and can be avoided.
The Dark Powers may tempt, to a degree, but they don't directly intervene.
Jander being snatched away? Ugh, lame. Especially considering it wasn't done for story, it wasn't done by the authors, it was done because of someone interfering and deciding that the character was, to a degree, to popular to die. Bleah.
Yes, Jander is technically updated to 3.0 in Champions of Darkness but I suggest for your money's worth to avoid this product at any cost! For the Jander "update" it's so poorly done you wonder if the author who updated him even knows how to play DnD (Sorry to the author but indeed it wasn't a work well done).
To TricksterGod. Although I admit VotM is good, I never agreed (even before Jander reappeared in CotN
) that he just figured it all out. That strange uncomprehensible forces were toying with him and that he was powerless against them. Several darklords spend years without ever figuring it out. But that's just me so no need to debate on that.And yes the DP often interfere directly. First of all, whenever in published modules they would kidnap PCs and drop them somewhere in RL. Or when at the end of those adventures, the Mists just send the PCs elsewhere (where the DM wants). So yes they could have saved Jander.
And just by tormenting Jander they were interfering with his unlife. They did send Tatyana's double to him on FR (on that subjet, I'm very not sure how it was explained that Anna was sent there) and then took him to Ravenloft at Strahd's doorstep. So why indeed would they let their toy go?
But as I said, in the end it's DM prerogative. I'm sure at least one DM thought it would be cool if Jander didn't die, before the CotN
came out.He was actually a pretty interesting character. Have his stats been updated for 3.0 or 3.5? I think I remember that he was once presented in a 2nd edition product but I dont remember which one.
Villian's Lorebook for the Realms has his 2e stats..... Forgot if there was any Ravenloft specific sourcebooks from 2e that might have stat'd him.
Forgot if there was any Ravenloft specific sourcebooks from 2e that might have stat'd him.
That would be Children of the Night - Vampires.
If we concede that the Dark Powers are a mysterious, omniscient force with some sort of Master Plan, then perhaps Jander lingers on only as a catalyst for some much larger aspect of that Plan which, when complete, will make his sacrifice and deferred redemption even more bittersweet.
As an example, compare Jander Sunstar to Paul Atreides/Muad'Dib from Dune. (Bear with me.) Both arrived on the scene heralded by prophecies. Both brought messages of hope, defiance, and self-reliance to a chosen few. Both eventually turned from leaders to unwitting/unwilling gods when their legend outgrew the truth; both saw cults grow in ther name and out of their control, both eventually discarded as the followers began to favor fiction over reality. Both became hermits, outcasts, and heretics -- which is where we meet up with Jander in CotN
.300 years after its beginning, how different would the Cult of the Morninglord be from its roots? How many nuanced or even opposing interpretations and doctrines could have cropped up in different areas, especially among the Gundarakite nationalists? A schism? An affiliation with (or infiltration by) the Cult of Erlin? What would Jander have to say if he saw what was being claimed or done in his name? Or the name of Lathander, though it would have lost any resemblance to that by now, anyway...
And what if a dedicated, idealistic priest of the Morninglord were to meet Jander -- who, to the priest's dismay, happens to be the "Morninglord" himself. Instead of being a god of hope and the source of faith, he is the epitome of cynicism, nihilism, and seems to be the embodiment of everything the Morninglord stands against. And yet: here "He" is, very real and very wrong. What does the priest do in the face of divine blashpemy -- destroy his god or choose to live a life of heresy? Boo-hoo, I think just failed a madness check.
Or perhaps Jander, like Muad'Dib, must ultimately return to challenge the dangerous heresy that his Cult has become, and only by his violent death can he -- and the true faith -- be redeemed... And thus continueth the Dark Powers' larger plan. Whatever the hell that is.
In the end, it seems a shame that an interesting character would be allowed to die alone some 300 years ago with only Strahd left to tell the tale. It's nice and poetic for the novel, but for the game it's rather useless. Better that PCs have a chance to give his death meaning; after all, NPCs are there to make a PC's life more interesting, not the other way around.
In the end, it seems a shame that an interesting character would be allowed to die alone some 300 years ago with only Strahd left to tell the tale.
Ah but he wasn't! Sasha was with him till the bitter end and went on to provide the foundation for the current church of the Morninglord (not to mention a relic .. two if you count the contribution of his lycanthropic girlfriend). I'll grant you that the existence of the Dawnslayers seems to indicate Sasha didn't listen to Jander when the latter issued a final warning. But then again, it wouldn't be Ravenloft if he had listened, now would it? ;)
Nice idea btw about Jander being recognized as the Morninglord's avatar. Consider it stolen :D
Ah but he wasn't! Sasha was with him till the bitter end and went on to provide the foundation for the current church of the Morninglord...
True. But aside from the whole thing about mistaking an elven vampire for a god, and why Dawnslayers should be lenient with lycanthropes, what other whoppers did Sasha conveniently leave out of the Midnight Clarion? Ten generations later, only Strahd would remember.
Nice idea btw about Jander being recognized as the Morninglord's avatar. Consider it stolen :D
Thanks for the credit, but I don't think it's original. When I read the description of the Morninglord Cult's origin in the RLCS, it's really the only conclusion I can draw. Bloody fangs and all.
Jander's mere existence would be a dangerous truth to accept or even manipulate... so by all means, run with it.
