I know that the elves get pretty much screwed up, losing about a quarter of their population I think, pre and during the War of Souls. Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis, though wonderful authors, went through a phase where they said "I made this world, now I'm going to destroy it". They no longer have their strong nations or armies. So what I want to know is, what happens now?
Well I think they were more thinking... this world needs more drama, or people won't read it. I admit there are things in the world that have more than angered me... mostly Usha cheating on Palin.... that (Beep beep beep beep beep) grr I used to love Usha till she did that... or Palin turnin into a douche. Its not that they want to destroy the world, they just know that no one will read it if everyone is happy for the whole book, which I personally would like a happy Palin Usha relationship, but that will never happen now that Usha decided to go out a cheat on poor cripple boy Palin. As to your question...
Only time will tell, but if I was the elves I would find a way to clean up Qulinesti first, and get the wizards help, then go after Silvanesti... too many cows there right now. I think they could find a way to do what the Dwarves did b4 by makeing tunnels. But use the tunnels to dump the lake into the sea.
GCS
Homeland politics have dominated the elven culture for centuries. Despite being the favored of Good, a fact they remind any other race they encounter of, the elves have long been fundamentally selfish. They largely isolated themselves in their forest kingdoms unwilling to aid others even when they possessed the means to do so.
Both the Silvanesti and the Qualinesti rejected a union of their peoples through both their royal houses and now they have a leader whom they don't particularly care for (yet who is perhaps the only one with a grip on reality).
They even aided and abetted the Kingpriest of Istar, whose second-in-command was a Silvanesti and who had many elves in his service, and yet have long persisted in arguing that their races were unjustly punished in the Cataclysm for the sins of humans.
Now things have come full-circle and what is happening to them is really not so different from what they sat back and watched happen to other people. The indifference of the Knights of Solamnia to their plight is really not so different to how the elves have behaved towards humans in the past.
The elves must now learn what it really means to be Good. They will no longer be able to hide in perfect homelands and proclaim their goodness and superiority without challenge. They will have to learn to get beyond their obsessive notions of racial purity and see themselves as one people. They will have to learn to cope with the world's challenges or else become exctinct.
The history of the elves had become boring and stagnant. Now there is a chance for some drama. The elves technically have the numbers to take back either Qualinesti or Silvanesti. The problem is that they're not strong enough to take back both, and if they insist on dividing their efforts they have no chance of regaining either.
Now that the gods are back they may get some divine help, although the same can be said for the minotaurs in Silvanesti. But they could quickly gain clerics and wizards amongst their number (as many elves already ahd these classes once before). They might also find some help in places they historically scorned, like Red Robe and Black Robe elves (like Dalamar) who might be convinced to help out of racial loyalty. But that would mean swallowing a huge helping of crow.
So a lot to happen.
I know that the elves get pretty much screwed up, losing about a quarter of their population I think, pre and during the War of Souls. Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis, though wonderful authors, went through a phase where they said "I made this world, now I'm going to destroy it". They no longer have their strong nations or armies. So what I want to know is, what happens now?
We know the elves are pretty much up a creek without a paddle for the time being. They did it to themselves by alienating everyone, now it's tie to pay the piper. The dwarves last I heard were still a very strong nation. I heard a rumble that there was a sort of civil war or something pre WoS but they're much better now. The Solamnics are in a huge rebuilding phase due to their losses in the WoS as are the KoN. The ogres still have their Titan leaders even after being routed by the elves and dragons, so hopefully we'll see something happen with that soon too. The Ergothian's star is beginning to rise again and the gnomes are finally build stuff that works. All in all things are going pretty well. If the elves can get their act together and start rebuilding burnt bridges they should be able to reclaim Silvanesti. Qualinesti is going to take a bit more work though.
Only time will tell, but if I was the elves I would find a way to clean up Qulinesti first, and get the wizards help, then go after Silvanesti... too many cows there right now.
Nooooo. They have to go and get Silvanesti now, before the minotaurs are too established in there to be able to get them out at all. About too many of them being there, only more will come as time goes by.
I know that the elves get pretty much screwed up, losing about a quarter of their population I think, pre and during the War of Souls. Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis, though wonderful authors, went through a phase where they said "I made this world, now I'm going to destroy it". They no longer have their strong nations or armies. So what I want to know is, what happens now?
I'm hoping the elves bleed themselves dry in futile attempts to retake their homelands. Then I'm hoping that the elves will become so desperate they'll turn to the Gods of Evil to save them, a plan which of course will backfire and result in a grand Anti-Elven Holy War which will end with the term "elf" becoming synonymous with "Goat-Sucker Bird", "Wooly Mammoth", and especially, "extinct".
Muhuhahaha.
Nooooo. They have to go and get Silvanesti now, before the minotaurs are too established in there to be able to get them out at all. About too many of them being there, only more will come as time goes by.
See I beg to differ, I think they should retake Qualinesti so they have a stageing point. The minotaurs are already well established there, and I don't think even if they tried to take it now, they would ever have enough to hold them off. My thinking is this, go retake Qualinesti, its the easier of the two to claim back, as its a lake and a bunch of hooligans running around. Then you'll be right near the wizards incase you need support from Wayreth. And the Dwarves on the otherside, who are already your allies.
After you have gotten that, start working on dimplomatics, the minatours can keep coming, humans aren't going to let them spread. So then you get the knights on your side, and the Plains folk from the desert. This way you have all of Ansalon at your back. Plus you already have the Dragons at your back, and if I am correct there are a lot more good than evil dragons at this point.
Now that you have everyone from Ansalon on your back, you storm Silvanesti routeing the cows and sending them back to thier pathetic island where they belong. Then once you have reestablished your home there, you go to thier island and take thier land from them and see how they like it.
The good thing is for the elves, they have the son of Tanis and Laurana as thier leader, so all they have to do is play the old golden general card, and oooo my daddy died defending you, and the Knights with their sense of honor are all like, dang hes right we owe him. The big thing is, getting the elves to unite just long enough to gain back Qualinesti, and smack some sense into Alahna, cause she is one of the main people in the mind set of ooo Sivanesti first Qualinesti later.
Atleast this is how I would do it from my military minds point of view
GCS
The big problem is that the Silvanesti are unlikely to want to do anything to liberate Qualinesti, and the Qualinesti are only slightly more likely to be willing to square off against the minotaurs. And at some point Gilthas is going to need to abandon the whole living in the Plains of Dust concept.
One wild card is the various elven settlements on Southern Ergoth. If they could get rid of the White Overlord the elves could claim most if not all of the island.
My thinking is this, go retake Qualinesti, its the easier of the two to claim back, as its a lake and a bunch of hooligans running around.
Don't forget the hordes of goblinoids being forged into a nation by a mysterious leader. Goblinoids may be dumb, but they've got numbers on their side, something elves have never had.
Then you'll be right near the wizards incase you need support from Wayreth.
Considering the events in Wizards' Conclave I think the Wizards won't be helping anyone but themselves for a long time to come.
And the Dwarves on the otherside, who are already your allies.
That was the case when Tarn Bellowgranite was in control of Thorbardin, things have changed since Dark Thane and the mountain dwarves are now holed up in their mountain and unlikely to come out of it, much less aid the elves.
After you have gotten that, start working on dimplomatics, the minatours can keep coming, humans aren't going to let them spread. So then you get the knights on your side, and the Plains folk from the desert. This way you have all of Ansalon at your back.
The knights will likely have their hands full given the massive problems hinted at in the upcoming Rise of Solamnia trilogy. I foresee the Knights helping the elves only if they are directly threatend by the minotaurs, an unlikely event given all the territory the minotaurs have yet to conquer.
The Plainsfolk are the last people to help the elves, since the pointy-eared bastards are now competing with the Plainsfolk for the already scant resources of the Plains of Dust.
Plus you already have the Dragons at your back, and if I am correct there are a lot more good than evil dragons at this point.
What dragons? The only time the good dragons as a group have helped out the two-legged races of the World is at the behest of Paladine. Paladine is now out of the picture, and though still good, it seems far more likely that the good dragons will be taking a hiatus in the next few decades to recover from their horrendous losses during the dragon purge.
Now that you have everyone from Ansalon on your back, you storm Silvanesti routeing the cows and sending them back to thier pathetic island where they belong. Then once you have reestablished your home there, you go to thier island and take thier land from them and see how they like it.
Bah Humbug man!
Even assuming the elves managed to rout the minotaurs from Silvanesti, the elves actually occupying the minotaur homeland? The elves don't even have the numbers to retake their own homelands, and I seriously doubt that humans and dwarves (assuming they would even ally with the elves) will participate in an undoubtedly high casualty invasion at the behest of the elves, people that have never looked out for any race other than their own. Let's not forget that the minotaurs are also superb sailors, with the only people on Ansalon coming close to challenging their naval might being the human nation of Ergoth.The good thing is for the elves, they have the son of Tanis and Laurana as thier leader, so all they have to do is play the old golden general card, and oooo my daddy died defending you, and the Knights with their sense of honor are all like, dang hes right we owe him.
To which the Knights will counter with, "We knights died in the Chaos War against Chaos himself to prevent him from destroying the world, so all debts are cancelled you pointy-eared freaks." Besides, Gilthas isn't something to be proud of. He's a panzy that spends half his time composing dark poetry, and when he isn't acting like a panzy and trying to lead he screws up royally. Case in point: His "leadership" of Qualinesti consisted of the country being occupied by the Knights of Neraka ... and when he finally decided to openly fight the KoN and Beryl, he gets Qualinost destroyed and the elves banished from their homeland. Wow, that's some track record.
The big thing is, getting the elves to unite just long enough to gain back Qualinesti, and smack some sense into Alahna, cause she is one of the main people in the mind set of ooo Sivanesti first Qualinesti later.
The elves are a dying race. Let them die.
The last time they tried to unite it ended with simultaneous insurrections in both elven nations.Qualinesti on the other hand is occupied by a bunch of ex-KoN and humanoid rabble. If the elves put up a concentrated effort, and got help from the wizards they could rout the invaders. The Lake would remain an annoyance but in truth it might make a fitting monument.
See statements above.
One wild card is the various elven settlements on Southern Ergoth. If they could get rid of the White Overlord the elves could claim most if not all of the island.
Even without Frost, the elves would still have to contend with the Solamnic-controlled lands of western S. Ergoth, not to mention the sizeable ogre populations of central S. Ergoth and the human-occupied coastal towns of northern and eastern S. Ergoth ... which pretty much leaves them with the tiny forests they already occupy.
Let's just let dying dogs (i.e. elves) die.
Besides, Gilthas isn't something to be proud of. He's a panzy that spends half his time composing dark poetry, and when he isn't acting like a panzy and trying to lead he screws up royally. Case in point: His "leadership" of Qualinesti consisted of the country being occupied by the Knights of Neraka ... and when he finally decided to openly fight the KoN and Beryl, he gets Qualinost destroyed and the elves banished from their homeland. Wow, that's some track record.
Actually, that was all a clever ruse to hide his true strength as a leader. Granted everyone has that low opinion of him now, but still. He's no more a panzy than a dragon's a cockaroach. As for the elves, retaking silanesti seems the better option. What's left in Qualinesti? A big lake of dead. Although there are al those minotaurs in silvanesti.
I dunno.
Actually, that was all a clever ruse to hide his true strength as a leader. Granted everyone has that low opinion of him now, but still. He's no more a panzy than a dragon's a cockaroach. As for the elves, retaking silanesti seems the better option. What's left in Qualinesti? A big lake of dead. Although there are al those minotaurs in silvanesti.
I dunno.
That it was a ruse is immaterial. Results matter, and the results with Gilthas as leader of Qualinesti have been disastrous for the Qualinesti.
That it was a ruse is immaterial. Results matter, and the results with Gilthas as leader of Qualinesti have been disastrous for the Qualinesti.
Actually no. Had it not been for his foresight in pre-arranging an escape route for the elves they would have very likely all been slaughtered by Beryl. Gilthas put on his effete act in order to keep the dark knights from seeing him as a potential threat. He actually had more freedom to act with everyone underestimating him. And consider that he managed to accomplish the things he did accomplish while he was basically under house arrest! All things considered he's been a more effective leader than his grandfather was.
It's also important to consider that the city of Qualinost was only a small part of the realm of Qualinesti. The Lake of Death is not the entire realm. One thing the elves will need to do is accept taking less than an entire realm all at once. This battle may take a long time even by elven standards.
I wouldn't discount the wizards though. Many of them are elves. And they are not going to hide out inside their Tower. Jenna wants to reestablish the prestige of the Orders and so I doubt if she would object to the White Robes and/or any elven wizards taking an active part in an effort to reclaim the elven lands. For one thing it would increase recruitment of apprentices among the elves, and keep them from turning to wild magic if they felt High Sorcery abandoned them. Secondly it would increase the visible presence of the wizards in the world. Now that the Orders are back Jenna doesn't want them to be unseen and ignored by the world.
GCS
Actually no. Had it not been for his foresight in pre-arranging an escape route for the elves they would have very likely all been slaughtered by Beryl. Gilthas put on his effete act in order to keep the dark knights from seeing him as a potential threat. He actually had more freedom to act with everyone underestimating him. And consider that he managed to accomplish the things he did accomplish while he was basically under house arrest!
You give him far too much credit. Many of his accomplishments were brought about because of the actions of his mother and wife. His escape route was also largely irrelevant, since they would not have deterred Beryl and the only reason Beryl was "deterred" was due to the direct intervention of Takhisis in the battle of Qualinost.
All things considered he's been a more effective leader than his grandfather was.
Of course he was, but then again, his grandfather was just a leader of a band of brigands (and he got them nearly all killed as well).
It's also important to consider that the city of Qualinost was only a small part of the realm of Qualinesti. The Lake of Death is not the entire realm. One thing the elves will need to do is accept taking less than an entire realm all at once.
Um, not according to the War of the Lance book. Qualinost is literally half the realm of Qualinesti. The closest human analogy would be Palanthas. Of course there are other settlements outside of Palanthas and under it's sphere of control, but they are piddly and of no consequence. Remove Palanthas and the Palanthas region is nothing, same with Qualinost and Qualinesti.
I wouldn't discount the wizards though. Many of them are elves.
Well, this we know. There are 16 Wizards left, of those we know two are Qualinesti, one is Silvanesti, and one is a Silvanesti dark elf. Four elf mages doesn't exactly sound like "many".
And they are not going to hide out inside their Tower.
That's what Dalamar is doing. He was all but ordered by Jenna to remain in the Tower at Wayreth to spend many years rebuilding it.
Jenna wants to reestablish the prestige of the Orders and so I doubt if she would object to the White Robes and/or any elven wizards taking an active part in an effort to reclaim the elven lands. For one thing it would increase recruitment of apprentices among the elves, and keep them from turning to wild magic if they felt High Sorcery abandoned them. Secondly it would increase the visible presence of the wizards in the world. Now that the Orders are back Jenna doesn't want them to be unseen and ignored by the world.
All the white robes? You mean all six? All the elven wizards? There are four, of which we know one (Dalamar) is likely not going to leave the Tower. Of the remaining one is Silvanesti and extremely old, it's surprising he even survived the fight with Kalrakin. Of the Two Qualinesti left, one is a red robe, the other a white robe. Knowing the Qualinesti, that one red robe is also branded a dark elf, as bad in the eyes of the elves as Dalamar himself. So that leaves one white robe Qualinesti. One Qualinesti that is more likely to die before he can do anything to help his pitiful kin.
You give him far too much credit. Many of his accomplishments were brought about because of the actions of his mother and wife. His escape route was also largely irrelevant, since they would not have deterred Beryl and the only reason Beryl was "deterred" was due to the direct intervention of Takhisis in the battle of Qualinost.
Of course he was, but then again, his grandfather was just a leader of a band of brigands (and he got them nearly all killed as well).
Um, not according to the War of the Lance book. Qualinost is literally half the realm of Qualinesti. The closest human analogy would be Palanthas. Of course there are other settlements outside of Palanthas and under it's sphere of control, but they are piddly and of no consequence. Remove Palanthas and the Palanthas region is nothing, same with Qualinost and Qualinesti.
Well, this we know. There are 16 Wizards left, of those we know two are Qualinesti, one is Silvanesti, and one is a Silvanesti dark elf. Four elf mages doesn't exactly sound like "many".
That's what Dalamar is doing. He was all but ordered by Jenna to remain in the Tower at Wayreth to spend many years rebuilding it.
All the white robes? You mean all six? All the elven wizards? There are four, of which we know one (Dalamar) is likely not going to leave the Tower. Of the remaining one is Silvanesti and extremely old, it's surprising he even survived the fight with Kalrakin. Of the Two Qualinesti left, one is a red robe, the other a white robe. Knowing the Qualinesti, that one red robe is also branded a dark elf, as bad in the eyes of the elves as Dalamar himself. So that leaves one white robe Qualinesti. One Qualinesti that is more likely to die before he can do anything to help his pitiful kin.
As a matter of fact not most were his mother or wife's doings, it was a conglameration of the three of them working together. The escape route was not to deter Beryl either it was to allow his people time and a place to escape, which it worked fairly well. The plan would have worked probably more than perfectly if not for Tak, and that stupid elf. So you can't blame Gilthas for the destruction of Qualinost, even though he blames himself.
I'm not seeing anywhere in my War of the Lance book that it says that. As a matter of fact according to the map, its a rather small portion of the forest. As the next city is 50miles away and the forest is 100miles across. and almost that north to south. And all be not even NewYork is that big I Highly doubt Qualinost is. So there is pleanty of forest left to reclaim. And make a new capital, still being able to get rid of the lake.
Well acctually there are atleast 5 elf mages 2 black robes... ooops bit of a spoiler....
Still right now not that much, but like I said this isn't somthing thats going to happen over night, or in a year, heck even 10 yrs. Your making it seem like what i suggested i felt could happen in a matter of months, which i know not to be true.
As for the wizards, i get the feeling Jenna will be helpful too as Wayreth Forest usually sits on the edge of Qualinesti too. Those ruffians will be causing visiting wizards troubles I'm sure she doesn't want to put up with either.
In short Iltharanos, i get the feeling you just really dislike elves and wish them all dead, which I think we all know won't happen.
GCS
As a matter of fact not most were his mother or wife's doings, it was a conglameration of the three of them working together. The escape route was not to deter Beryl either it was to allow his people time and a place to escape, which it worked fairly well. The plan would have worked probably more than perfectly if not for Tak, and that stupid elf. So you can't blame Gilthas for the destruction of Qualinost, even though he blames himself.
I'm not blaming him for the destruction of Qualinost. I'm saying he's not the good leader you make him out to be. He's adequate, at best. Dangerously inadequate at worst.
I'm not seeing anywhere in my War of the Lance book that it says that. As a matter of fact according to the map, its a rather small portion of the forest. As the next city is 50miles away and the forest is 100miles across. and almost that north to south. And all be not even NewYork is that big I Highly doubt Qualinost is. So there is pleanty of forest left to reclaim. And make a new capital, still being able to get rid of the lake.
I'm not talking in terms of square mileage. In terms of culture, politics, and population (Qualinost is roughly 50% of the total population of all of Qualinesti, at least per the WotL) Qualinost is for all intents and purposes Qualinesti. Without Qualinost, the Qualinesti have nothing.
Well acctually there are atleast 5 elf mages 2 black robes... ooops bit of a spoiler....
Hmm, two black robes you say?
Still right now not that much, but like I said this isn't somthing thats going to happen over night, or in a year, heck even 10 yrs. Your making it seem like what i suggested i felt could happen in a matter of months, which i know not to be true.
I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting that the elves are now an insignificant force on Krynn. They have spent millenia belittling the other goodly races and I highly doubt that the other peoples of Krynn will forget that treatment. I'm suggesting that the other peoples will never forget and thus never help the elves. Ever. At least not in the military manner you spoke of ... humanitarian efforts, sure. Military intervention as you stated in your previous posts is an event I don't thing likely.
As for the wizards, i get the feeling Jenna will be helpful too as Wayreth Forest usually sits on the edge of Qualinesti too. Those ruffians will be causing visiting wizards troubles I'm sure she doesn't want to put up with either.
Wayreth forest's geographical location is irrelevant as a factor in the consideration of the difficulty wizards will have in reaching the Tower. The forest goes where its masters tell it to, and no magic-less ruffians are likely to hamper that. If the masters of the Tower wanted, the forest can just swoop up wizards as soon as they left Solace village or New Ports. Distance and location aren't a factor when we're talking about Wayreth's tower and forest.
In short Iltharanos, i get the feeling you just really dislike elves and wish them all dead, which I think we all know won't happen.
GCS
Oh I really do dislike elves and wish them dead, but that's not the point here. The point is they're not going anywhere but down, and it's mostly their own fault, and though they've sunk quite low, they have yet to reach the bottom. I really dislike the minotaurs and wish them dead too, but that doesn't change the fact that their star is on the rise and they are now an empire in the truest sense of the word.
Don't forget the hordes of goblinoids being forged into a nation by a mysterious leader. Goblinoids may be dumb, but they've got numbers on their side, something elves have never had.
Considering the events in Wizards' Conclave I think the Wizards won't be helping anyone but themselves for a long time to come.
That was the case when Tarn Bellowgranite was in control of Thorbardin, things have changed since Dark Thane and the mountain dwarves are now holed up in their mountain and unlikely to come out of it, much less aid the elves.
The knights will likely have their hands full given the massive problems hinted at in the upcoming Rise of Solamnia trilogy. I foresee the Knights helping the elves only if they are directly threatend by the minotaurs, an unlikely event given all the territory the minotaurs have yet to conquer.
The Plainsfolk are the last people to help the elves, since the pointy-eared bastards are now competing with the Plainsfolk for the already scant resources of the Plains of Dust.
What dragons? The only time the good dragons as a group have helped out the two-legged races of the World is at the behest of Paladine. Paladine is now out of the picture, and though still good, it seems far more likely that the good dragons will be taking a hiatus in the next few decades to recover from their horrendous losses during the dragon purge.
Bah Humbug man!
To which the Knights will counter with, "We knights died in the Chaos War against Chaos himself to prevent him from destroying the world, so all debts are cancelled you pointy-eared freaks." Besides, Gilthas isn't something to be proud of. He's a panzy that spends half his time composing dark poetry, and when he isn't acting like a panzy and trying to lead he screws up royally. Case in point: His "leadership" of Qualinesti consisted of the country being occupied by the Knights of Neraka ... and when he finally decided to openly fight the KoN and Beryl, he gets Qualinost destroyed and the elves banished from their homeland. Wow, that's some track record.
The elves are a dying race. Let them die.
See statements above.
Even without Frost, the elves would still have to contend with the Solamnic-controlled lands of western S. Ergoth, not to mention the sizeable ogre populations of central S. Ergoth and the human-occupied coastal towns of northern and eastern S. Ergoth ... which pretty much leaves them with the tiny forests they already occupy.
Let's just let dying dogs (i.e. elves) die.
Lets see first I hadn't forgot about the goblins, but nobody knows the forests like the Qualinesti people. So I have no doubt goblins cam be routed easily enough.
I have to disagree, with you dispite any event that happened in Wizard's Conclave, they need to show people they can be trusted again, and gain favor so they gain members. So I think they will help, maybe in small ways but still help.
Since when did they hole back up? Did you even read the War of Souls? Tarn and Gilthas are allies, it never said anything about them holeing back up again, nor did he die and i never heard he got kicked from being the Thane, and he is totally opposed to holeing back up. He knows that the Dwarves can't sit in thier mountians forever, and he knew the risk of helping the elves,
that his people that were there might not survive and I doubt he blames Gilthas for thier losses.
Of course the Knights are going to have problems with the Kinights trilogy coming, if they didn't the world would be boring, but I still believe eventually they will help out. It doesn't help that Gerard is a quitter though!
I agree the Plainsfolk aren't likely to help with Gilthas being an idiot and moving back in on them, but I don't understand why he is either, the elves hated it there why go back? So pull out and get thier assisstance so that you aren't moving in on thier land!
They helpped out before the battle of Sanction too, and I think they owe the mortals a little too much to go back into hideing again, I feel they will support the elves as a repayment for freeing them from Tak, even though it was Tas that freed them. Plus they already have Mirror.
The elves taking over the minitour land is more of a joke then being serious.
And everyone fought in the Chaos war, maybe not directly against Chaos but still had to fight his effects, they still owe Gilthas for his parents.
Once again I feel you just hate the elves, and no matter what I say your not going to feel they will ever be able to reclaim thier lands. But also I still feel it will take several years for them to do it.
GCS
I'm not blaming him for the destruction of Qualinost. I'm saying he's not the good leader you make him out to be. He's adequate, at best. Dangerously inadequate at worst.
I'm not talking in terms of square mileage. In terms of culture, politics, and population (Qualinost is roughly 50% of the total population of all of Qualinesti, at least per the WotL) Qualinost is for all intents and purposes Qualinesti. Without Qualinost, the Qualinesti have nothing.
Hmm, two black robes you say?
I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting that the elves are now an insignificant force on Krynn. They have spent millenia belittling the other goodly races and I highly doubt that the other peoples of Krynn will forget that treatment. I'm suggesting that the other peoples will never forget and thus never help the elves. Ever. At least not in the military manner you spoke of ... humanitarian efforts, sure. Military intervention as you stated in your previous posts is an event I don't thing likely.
Wayreth forest's geographical location is irrelevant as a factor in the consideration of the difficulty wizards will have in reaching the Tower. The forest goes where its masters tell it to, and no magic-less ruffians are likely to hamper that. If the masters of the Tower wanted, the forest can just swoop up wizards as soon as they left Solace village or New Ports. Distance and location aren't a factor when we're talking about Wayreth's tower and forest.
Oh I really do dislike elves and wish them dead, but that's not the point here. The point is they're not going anywhere but down, and it's mostly their own fault, and though they've sunk quite low, they have yet to reach the bottom. I really dislike the minotaurs and wish them dead too, but that doesn't change the fact that their star is on the rise and they are now an empire in the truest sense of the word.
I can agree Gilthas is adequete at best, I won't argue that. I think he is a loser who don't do either parent justice, and I love Laurana and strongly dislike Tanis. Not to mention I think his wife is the man of the marriage.
As to the elves be littleing everyone else i disagree with this as proven by Tarn, also I think you under-estemate the Human race and how we act. Just cause we don't like how people have treated us forever doesn't mean we won't help. Look at Britain and the US, we treated them like crap for a long time, and still do cause America is the best, well in peoples mind, but they are still were willing to help us in this pointless war. Look at it from a military perspective, I would want the elves on my side, arrogant or not those guys can wield a bow like no other. Eventually, you scratch thier backs and they will scratch yours, especially after what they have been through.
I think Wayreth's location has a lot to do with it, even though it can move, I don't think they are going to have it move all over to pick up everyone it wants, plus part of the test is getting to the tower, it doesn't make sense to have the thing constantly jumpping, especially if someone is trying to get thier and the wizards don't know about it.
I think the elves just stepped in a pot hole along thier galactic journey, all be it a huge one, maybe the size of the Grand Canyon, but they will find thier way out. A fantasy relm with out elves is like the orginal Star Trek without Captian Kirk having sex almost every episode. Its just not the same. Or a space Sci-Fi with out any aliens.
GCS
Since when did they hole back up? Did you even read the War of Souls? Tarn and Gilthas are allies, it never said anything about them holeing back up again, nor did he die and i never heard he got kicked from being the Thane, and he is totally opposed to holeing back up. He knows that the Dwarves can't sit in thier mountians forever, and he knew the risk of helping the elves,
that his people that were there might not survive and I doubt he blames Gilthas for thier losses.
SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Yes I read War of Souls, and that wasn't what I was referring to.
I never said Tarn died. Read the novel Dark Thane, it contains all the events I alluded to. Here's the brief and dirty low-down. After the battle of Qualinost, Tarn survives along with some dwarves, but hundreds if not thousands of dwarves perished in the battle. Back in Thorbardin Tarn faces challenges to his rule from all sides, particularly from a rogue Hylar chief, none of this is made easier by the fact that Tarn lost so many dwarves from the battle and has nothing to show for it (he can't prove Beryl is dead). The other dwarves and eventually Tarn himself, blame Tarn for the disaster that claimed so many young dwarves (most of whom are Tarn's core followers). Long story short: Tarn gets deposed by this Hylar rival and he along with a few other loyal followers depart from Thorbardin and take up residence in Pax Tharkas (Tarn's followers now consist of a few hundred dwarves in total). The Hylar rival, now ruler of Thorbardin decides to go with the old dwarven standby - he seals Thorbardin from the outside world, forbidding all contact with anyone outside the mountain, and the dwarves turn inward. All of this is why the elves can expect no help from either Tarn or the dwarves of Thorbardin. They've got their own problems to deal with.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Of course the Knights are going to have problems with the Kinights trilogy coming, if they didn't the world would be boring, but I still believe eventually they will help out. It doesn't help that Gerard is a quitter though! :mad
I agree the Plainsfolk aren't likely to help with Gilthas being an idiot and moving back in on them, but I don't understand why he is either, the elves hated it there why go back? So pull out and get thier assisstance so that you aren't moving in on thier land!
They helpped out before the battle of Sanction too, and I think they owe the mortals a little too much to go back into hideing again, I feel they will support the elves as a repayment for freeing them from Tak, even though it was Tas that freed them. Plus they already have Mirror.
Only time will tell. Like you and I both agree on, it will take many many many years for the elves to halt their slide into ruin, if ever. Given the horrendous loss of elven lives the Elven people have already suffered and the massive problems they face, it is inevitable that their numbers will continue to slide. It's all a numbers game. Elves produce roughly two or three children in four or five centuries of life. Even if they were to suddenly get their homelands back and were not imbroiled in any large-scale conflicts ... it would take centuries for them to reach their pre-War of Souls, pre-Chaos War populations. And yet they don't have everything on a rosy platter. They are now homeless vagabonds living in environments they are entirely unsuited to. All this points to one thing -> Population depletion.
The only conceivable way the elves can bounce back in anything short of a millenium is if:
1) They get some lame deus ex machina approach and some doofus God massively increases their birth rate (ala FR dwarves).
2) They start interbreeding with humans and become a race of half-elves.
3) All their problems magically disappear.
Once again I feel you just hate the elves, and no matter what I say your not going to feel they will ever be able to reclaim thier lands. But also I still feel it will take several years for them to do it.
GCS
I hate the minotaurs just as much, but I can admit they will continue to conquer and prosper. Same goes with elves, my hatred of them aside, I can readily admit that all the signs point to them never recovering and they now stand at the twilight of their civilization. Just as the High Ogres fell, so now do the high and mighty elves.
I can agree Gilthas is adequete at best, I won't argue that. I think he is a loser who don't do either parent justice, and I love Laurana and strongly dislike Tanis. Not to mention I think his wife is the man of the marriage.
As to the elves be littleing everyone else i disagree with this as proven by Tarn, also I think you under-estemate the Human race and how we act. Just cause we don't like how people have treated us forever doesn't mean we won't help. Look at Britain and the US, we treated them like crap for a long time, and still do cause America is the best, well in peoples mind, but they are still were willing to help us in this pointless war. Look at it from a military perspective, I would want the elves on my side, arrogant or not those guys can wield a bow like no other. Eventually, you scratch thier backs and they will scratch yours, especially after what they have been through.
I think Wayreth's location has a lot to do with it, even though it can move, I don't think they are going to have it move all over to pick up everyone it wants, plus part of the test is getting to the tower, it doesn't make sense to have the thing constantly jumpping, especially if someone is trying to get thier and the wizards don't know about it.
I think the elves just stepped in a pot hole along thier galactic journey, all be it a huge one, maybe the size of the Grand Canyon, but they will find thier way out. A fantasy relm with out elves is like the orginal Star Trek without Captian Kirk having sex almost every episode. Its just not the same. Or a space Sci-Fi with out any aliens.
GCS
I admit it's possible the elves can expect aid from the Solamnics, pending the outcome of the Rise of Solamnia trilogy. As of late, the novels have a decided "let's trash everything into ruins" theme which doesn't lend well to the trashed peoples venturing forth and aiding others.
Kirk? He almost never had sex every episode ... probably more like half of the episodes was the Kirkmeister getting it on. A better analogy would be a James Bond movie where Bond didn't get it on, now that would be entirely odd.
Despite my earlier statement, I'd be perfectly happy if the elves didn't go extinct ... as long as they are so reduced in population that they are thought of in the same vein as Giant Goat-Sucker Birds (so rare that they may as well be extinct ... but aren't).
Should the elves go extinct on Ansalon? I don't think so, but they should perhaps look elsewhere for a new homeland. Almost 1/4-1/2 of Qualinesti is ruined by the Lake of Death. Note it is ruined, not covered by the Lake. Silvanesti is overrun by bovines on steriods, blocked by a united ogre nation. Silvanesti will be exteremly difficult for the elves to retake at best, even with allies, due to Minotaur militarism and general nature. Qualinesti is pretty much lost until the new lake can be drained successfully and the land healed. Alhana and Gilthas need to recognize their situation, take stock of what they have, and move on to greener pastures. There are plenty of areas on Ansalon that are uninhabited, while not a rural as the elves might like, they are suitable for them to rebuild.
Let's look at their potential allies then shall we
The Solamnics are going to be of no help until they can rebuild their numbers. They'll be lucky to defend their own holdings at this point, let alone put together a force to help the elves. Right now, were they to take the field offensively, their most likely targets will be their pre-Chaos War holdings rather than wasting resources fighting for elves who will most likely toss them right out if they do manage to retake their lands.
The Legion of Steel has always had small numbers and might be of some help in cleaning out Qualinesti. They should be able to inflitrate the region and pick off brigands without much notice since they are mostly humans. Goblins are fairly easily dealt with, but you're going to need numbers to do it. They will be of practically no help in Silvanesti, as they will be unable to blend in with the current local popualtion. Silvanesti is going to be a knockdown dragout fight.
Having been routed at Sanction and dealt a heafty blow by the draconians, the Knights of Neraka are in the same boat as the Solamnics. They have to try to hold Palanthas and Kalanthas as well as their other holdings from the Solamnics as well as the Minotaurs. There's also the fact that they're essentially leaderless at this point, so we'll see their star fall far before it starts to rise again.
The dwarves are holed up in their mountain, once again. This will probably cost them in the future, but for now not a condemable move on their part. After having lost so many of their youth in vain under Tarns leadership it's hardly a suprise. That and there's the whole general dislike and distrust between the dwarves and elves to start with. Tarn might be willing to help, but not until he can rouse himself from his stupor and self-imposed exile.
The Kagonesti sure as heck aren't going to help their "cousins", who've enslaved, treated them as wild anminals, and taken them from their homes them in the past. Besides that would mean leaving their beloved lands on Southern Ergoth with humans and a dragon ever knocking on their door. Not going to happen.
Ergoth is going to do nothing. They have their own worries. With the Minotaurs having access to ports on the continent, they are going to have to contend with more Minotaur raider ships in their waters. While this might rally them to elves cause, it most likely will not as the Ergothians are likely to only think of themselves as they have in the past.
The Kender...ummm...ahhh...enough said.
The Gnomes. Much too busy repairing/upgrading Mt. Nevermind to get involved in another war. They might be willing to part with some of their inventions as well as provide technical advisors, but that's the extent of "help" they'll lend.
That leaves us with the wizards. At this time they are too weak to help much. The wizards they have aren't all that powerful, having only had High Sorcery so recently returned to them. Then there was the near defeat at Wayreth that has dwindled their already small numbers. The elves might get some help from the White and Red Robes, if they accept it from the Reds that will be a big policy change and suprise. The Black Robes will leave them be, as any help from them would most definiately be turned away anyway.
They'll get some help from the gods of good and neutrality, but not too much. You'll see some intervention from them, but not enough to make a significant change in the immeadiate future, otherwise the balance will tip and the gods of evil will be able to intervene as well. Gilean will make sure that doesn't happen. Especially with no "head" of either pantheon discernable.
With Paladine gone, their divine patron, the elves' star is in definite decline. Will it disappear?? Hopefully not, but unless they change their mindset and policy on other races it's almost a foregone conclusion. It would be nice to have the elves mopping about Ansalon for a few generations, having to learn about the other races, instead of deeming them beneath them and ignoring them.
That's how I see it. I hope that we don't see the new upcoming elven book return the elves to the status quo. That would just be wrong, no real long term consequence for their actions, or lack thereof, in the past. That would not a changed nation and people make. If that were to happen I just might stop reading the books altogether.
So the more I think about this the less and less balanced this is. practically every single "good" nation is in ruins, in one way or another, be it having thier home lands taken over, or rebuilding from a crazed dragon. Yet Minatours are strong as can be, and Ergoth, is stay fairly neutral, though this could be thier time to rise as well. Where is Gilean, him and his whole balance issue, i see no balance, I see a world who will be lucky if its not over run with Mad Cow disease. Heck the "good" races should be lucky the Evil gods are fighting for power, if anything thats all they got working for them. Maybe though this is all a way to tie Taladas to Ansalon??? Maybe some force of humans or i dunno what they have up there but somthing will come down and rescue Ansalon from being over run by the Cowmen. Thus spawning all sorts of new adventures. Or a war between the two?
As for the elves, let me just say I hate the elves too. I think they are all pompus bastards, and was happy to see thier precisous forests taken from them so that the Kagonesti are the most powerful elven race. Albeit with the least structured government. I say send Usha Majere into exile with these evles too, cheat on Palin.. he might not be able to fire ball you but he sure can get rid of you. Unlike her he accutally loves his mate. (sorry i just really hate Usha now after Prisoner of Haven) Anywho, maybe the elves light is about to fade, atleast the Slivanesti and Qualinesti... given this Key situation, the Kagonesti will more than likely have back thier land soon, so it sounds.
GCS
The time of the elves is past. They had plenty of opportunities to put their foot forward and take up a dominant role on Ansalon long ago and even as late as the Chaos War.
...
That's how I see it. I hope that we don't see the new upcoming elven book return things to the status quo. That would just be wrong.
Exactly! The elves have been in decline for a long time, at least as long ago as the First Cataclysm, perhaps more. The last true opportunity they had to halt and even reverse this trend was when Porthios and Alhana wed. For that brief time the two major elven nations were united, and had they stayed united they would have been a force to be reckoned with. But then their fear of the different and the unknown kicked in and that fleeting footstep towards glory fell by the wayside ...
I also hope we won't see a return to the status quo after the elven book is done. Going with the Star Trek analogies
, it'd be as annoying as those episodes where waves its hand and all the terrible events that just happened to and crew never occurred. That said, I do think Dragonlance is excellent in being one of the few novel/game worlds that doesn't go the "return to status quo" route.Iltaranos, let me just say i am sorry *points gun at foot and pulls trigger quite a few times* I hadn't read Dark Thane, and had assumed it was about the Rise of Tarn, not the fall. So that blows part of my threoy away. Once agian my most sincere apologizes.
No prob.
Maybe you were thinking of Last Thane as the novel that dealt with Tarn's rise?So the more I think about this the less and less balanced this is. practically every single "good" nation is in ruins, in one way or another, be it having thier home lands taken over, or rebuilding from a crazed dragon. Yet Minatours are strong as can be, and Ergoth, is stay fairly neutral, though this could be thier time to rise as well. Where is Gilean, him and his whole balance issue, i see no balance, I see a world who will be lucky if its not over run with Mad Cow disease. Heck the "good" races should be lucky the Evil gods are fighting for power, if anything thats all they got working for them. Maybe though this is all a way to tie Taladas to Ansalon???
Yeah, the goodly nations aren't doing too well now. About the only one that's come out of the calamitous events of the last few decades is Ergoth (they were largely unaffected by the War of the Lance, Chaos War, and War of Souls).
Maybe some force of humans or i dunno what they have up there but somthing will come down and rescue Ansalon from being over run by the Cowmen. Thus spawning all sorts of new adventures. Or a war between the two?
Now that's an intriguing idea. As far as we know, the elven nation of Armach in Taladas (founded by the Lost Silvanesti) is still intact, though the new Taladas trilogy could change all that. Perhaps the elves of Ansalon will learn of their Taladan kin and seek their aid in retaking their Ansalonian homelands and/or refuge in Armach. Or maybe the elves of Taladas will suffer a similar loss of homeland and they will migrate in or near Ansalon.
As for the elves, let me just say I hate the elves too. I think they are all pompus bastards, and was happy to see thier precisous forests taken from them so that the Kagonesti are the most powerful elven race. Albeit with the least structured government. I say send Usha Majere into exile with these evles too, cheat on Palin.. he might not be able to fire ball you but he sure can get rid of you. Unlike her he accutally loves his mate. (sorry i just really hate Usha now after Prisoner of Haven) Anywho, maybe the elves light is about to fade, atleast the Slivanesti and Qualinesti... given this Key situation, the Kagonesti will more than likely have back thier land soon, so it sounds.
GCS
As much as I dislike elves, I respect the Kagonesti. If the elves' plight does get turned around I would absolutely love it if it was due to the strength of the Kagonesti ... that'd show those arrogant "civilized" elves. Of course, like Koranith pointed out, it's not likely the Kagonesti will help their more civilized cousins and they do have that problem of Frost on their island, not to mention the still-occupying forces of Qualimori and Silvamori.
Hmm, it looks like the only elves that have actually had something good happen to them lately are the Dimernesti. At least they've gotten rid of their terrorizing dragon and are now free to choose their own destiny.
The depopulation of the elves was not that complete. Only a quarter was killed off, and though that is a huge number, there is 75% left to fight. If there were four million Qualinesti and Silvanesti, then there is three million left to fight.
If there were millions of elves, they'd have a damn good chance at retaking their homelands. There aren't millions of elves. The whole of Qualinesti has all of 42,000 elves, and that was back in the War of the Lance. Reduce that population because of:
a. Chaos War
b. 40 years of Dark Knight occupation and executions
c. 15 years of Beryl's occupation
d. The War of Souls
Silvanesti's population (per Koranith's post) is roughly 45,000 circa the War of the Lance era. Reduce their population because of:
a. Chaos War
b. nearly 30 years of suffering under the debilitating effects of the Silvanesti shield, which killed unknown thousands
c. The War of Souls
Then you have to take into consideration that the vast majority of elves are not soldiers and consist of the elderly, the young, the sick, the untrained and what you're left with is very few elves capable of bringing the fight to the enemy.
The depopulation of the elves was not that complete. Only a quarter was killed off, and though that is a huge number, there is 75% left to fight. If there were four million Qualinesti and Silvanesti, then there is three million left to fight.
Then you have to figure that 25-50% of those are children, the elderly, and infirm unable use a weapon. I go as low as 25% because many of them died in crossing the Plains of Dust. At least half of those remaining are women, probably more since it the defence of Qualinesti was mostly male. Even though most elven women have reudimentary instruction in fighting, their not going to be of much help against the Minotaurs in Silvanesti. So if you go by best esitmates then 25% of 3 million is 750,000 so that leaves 2,250,000 of fighting age. Half of that is 1,125,000. Then there are most of the Qualinesti who are loyal to Gilthas, who is opposed to fighting now, and wish to make a new home. I'm assuming half of them are Qualinesti so that leaves you with 562,500. Then you have to pacifist factor and the fact that elves hold all life to be sacred, which will elminate another 50-75% of that number. So that leaves 281,250 and that's the best estimate. You can do the math for worst the worst case senario.
Of course that's assuming that they started out with 4 million, which I highly doubt. The WotL gives the Silvanesti population at 44,435 and the Qualinesi at 41,760, which brings it to 86,195. There would have to be some major breeding going on to get that nubmer to 4 million in less than 100 years.
So that kinda explains what I consider to be a very low population of Ansalon, IMHO.
If there were millions of elves, they'd have a damn good chance at retaking their homelands. There aren't millions of elves. The whole of Qualinesti has all of 42,000 elves, and that was back in the War of the Lance. Reduce that population because of:
a. Chaos War
b. 40 years of Dark Knight occupation and executions
c. 15 years of Beryl's occupation
d. The War of Souls
Silvanesti's population (per Koranith's post) is roughly 45,000 circa the War of the Lance era. Reduce their population because of:
a. Chaos War
b. nearly 30 years of suffering under the debilitating effects of the Silvanesti shield, which killed unknown thousands
c. The War of Souls
Then you have to take into consideration that the vast majority of elves are not soldiers and consist of the elderly, the young, the sick, the untrained and what you're left with is very few elves capable of bringing the fight to the enemy.
Exactly what I was getting at. Elves generally have a very small portion of their population dedicated to defense. They rely on their mystique as legendary woodsman to keep most enemies at bay.
If we go by the end of the KINGPRIEST TRILOGY, it emphasized that millions were killed in the Cataclysm. Pretty devastating, obviously, as by then, a lot of people were no doubt making pilgramages to Ishtar paramount to their lives.
So that kinda explains what I consider to be a very low population of Ansalon, IMHO.
I agree with this completely...although I do want to add a clarification....No offense intended at all DMJoe, Istar...not Ishtar.....like I said...no offense...I see this alot and it bugs me nearly as much as when I see someone write Cameron instead of Caramon
If not, well sorry. I frequent the Forgotten Realms where there are still millions of elves.
87,000? This is why I need something more than the DLCS book. I had no idea it was that low. Are you sure it wasn't talking about the cities of Qualinost and Silvanost having that population?
If not, well sorry. I frequent the Forgotten Realms where there are still millions of elves.
The cities of Qualinost and Silvanost account for roughly 50% of the total population of those respective elven nations. So Qualinost has a population of ~ 21,000 and Silvanost is around 25,000.
Silvanost alone contains over 7,000 minotaur soldiers. So yes, the elves are screwed.
Yes they might be screwed if they went up against them one on one. But it's still possible they could win if they employed powerful magic, now with Gods of Magic Back and Solinari has concluded his business with Wayreth he's probably going to want to make sure that his most powerful spellcasters don't die out. ;) Plus the elves may find allies among the dimernesti. Imagine if they got the dimernesti to attack minotaur ships headed south around the continent and prevent the quickest method of moving troops and goods. Maybe the elves could migrate to Nostar or Enstar and make it a forest paradise. (of course the elves flee to an island deal has been done to death.) But anyway so their are tons of possibilities for keeping the elves going...despite some people wishes for them all to die out.
For me, I am tempted to not read any more about the elves, and take the oportunity to rebuild or destroy what remains of the elves in my own games. This is a great opportunity to create an epic adventure that does not entail the end of the world, so I feel like I must take it
Exactly, I think the elves will recapture either Qualinesti Lands or Silvanesti maybe in time both.
It won't be about numbers it will be about hero's and it is a great guest
Currently my players are in the south of the wayreth forrest learning more about the mysterious goblinoid forces and doing hit and run tactics
(personally i think minotaurs would be easier compared to hoards of goblins, human mercs, knights of Neraka and whatevers left over from the dragon overlords rule. Minotaurs tactics are generally simple and theres no subtley)
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Yes they might be screwed if they went up against them one on one. But it's still possible they could win if they employed powerful magic, now with Gods of Magic Back and Solinari has concluded his business with Wayreth he's probably going to want to make sure that his most powerful spellcasters don't die out. ;)
That's certainly a possibility. Considering Dalamar was an exceptional Wizard and it took him some nine decades before he became an apprentice to Raistlin, such magical aid from the elves' own ranks isn't likely to arrive anytime in the foreseeable future. Unless of course Solinari does the oh so lame Chosen of Mystra (erm Solinari) route as he did with Coryn.
It still all boils down to a numbers game. The elves reach adulthood in 80 years. Minotaurs can do so in 17 years. In all their long centuries of life, elves produce, at most, four children (usually much less). Minotaurs have lots of children in a small span of time. e.g. Hotak had four children, and he was only middle age for a minotaur (max. lifespan 150 years). Even if the elves were all so skilled that they could take out five minotaurs for each one of them that fell ... those are relatively easily replenishable losses. The elves' losses would be much more difficult to replenish, given their already low numbers and low birthrate.
Plus the elves may find allies among the dimernesti. Imagine if they got the dimernesti to attack minotaur ships headed south around the continent and prevent the quickest method of moving troops and goods. Maybe the elves could migrate to Nostar or Enstar and make it a forest paradise. (of course the elves flee to an island deal has been done to death.) But anyway so their are tons of possibilities for keeping the elves going...despite some people wishes for them all to die out.
The Dimernesti? Sure, if the Silvanesti hadn't alienated them as well, and if the Dimernesti weren't themselves arrogant xenophobic elitist racists. Nostar and Enstar present their own problems (hordes of Shadow Wights). Who wishes them all to die out? I wish for them to lose even more numbers but yet have a few around ... like in a zoo, an example of the price of overweening pride and covert racism.
(personally i think minotaurs would be easier compared to hoards of goblins, human mercs, knights of Neraka and whatevers left over from the dragon overlords rule. Minotaurs tactics are generally simple and theres no subtley)
It may not be as easy as you think. The accounts of the minotaur invasion in the Minotaur Wars series depicts that the minotaurs aren't as dull as their outward forms would suggest.
Maybe Branchala, or Habbakuk will increase the birthrate of the elves. And then we could have Tree-hugger Twins(Thunder Twins from FR)
Dear High God I hope not. If that were the case they might as well just have the High God come down from on high and wave his hand to make the last 40 years of history vanish and be replaced by that squeaky-clean alternate timeline Tas visisted where the Elves were united and everyone was happy, married with 2.5 children complete with single-family home surrounded by a white-picket fence.
I don't mind people saying that the elves suck or they don't like them, but sometimes I don't think people realize that certain people, races, or things are set up in a way to convey certain thoughts. A good example of this would be Mina, most people say they hate her or such, and I think that she was set up sort of like this with her looking really young and blind. Same with Crysania to a point before she was blinded permanently. I think people look at the elves and say "geez they arent gracious, nice, and such" and not realize that they were written that way for a purpose. If everyone in Krynn was gracious, nice, and hospitible there would be no conflict. It can also show that inhernetly good people still sometimes do things that arent exactly right. Whats that saying.. "Some of the most evil things in the world have been done witht he best intentions".
Not to pick on you Green Cloacked Sorceror, but I don't agree with you on the Usha thing. I mean, try being married to a woman who 90% of your marriage isn't around you or even in your city. She doesnt really do anything to show that she loves you, even small things like just being there with you. I think you would rethink a lot of things and maybe seek comfort, even for a short time, somewhere else. I sometimes think people expact all these characters to be perfect and not have real life situations or flaws that happen in everyone in the world. Heck look at what Tanis did when he was with Kitiara, he didn't even tell her brothers or the rest of the companions. He was gone something like 3 days with her, while they were stuck just waiting and worrying.
I dunno I guess personally I don't hate any of the races really. I see different things in different ones and I like that. I dont want a majority of the races to be all carbon copies of eachother with all their goodnes and then were are given a token race that embodies everything we hate. Thats so boring. I like seeing different "good" things in some of the races and different "bad" things in the same. I personally believe each race has the potential pretty much to choose from being good, neutral, and evil. I like to see flaws in these races and they work to overcome some of them to be able to survive. I just think its more realistic personally.
I know probably a lot of you don't agree, but thats how I see it. The elves and Wizards of High Sorcery were the main two things that attracted me to Dragonlance so much. Forgotten Realms elves really don't seem very distinct except the sun elves(and most of it is "they are snobs" or such). I liked the different play between Qualinesti, Silvanesti, and Kagonesti. I'm actually glad they did lose their homelands, just because I would like to see one of the nations take a more active part in the world, but I'd personally still like to see one of the nations stay the recluse, I think it would help to preserve their "race and culture" and still set up future conflicts. I dunno, as I said before, I don't want all these races to be goody too-shoes, and everyone likes them because they do everything right. Its so boring.
I don't mind people saying that the elves suck or they don't like them, but sometimes I don't think people realize that certain people, races, or things are set up in a way to convey certain thoughts. A good example of this would be Mina, most people say they hate her or such, and I think that she was set up sort of like this with her looking really young and blind. Same with Crysania to a point before she was blinded permanently. I think people look at the elves and say "geez they arent gracious, nice, and such" and not realize that they were written that way for a purpose. If everyone in Krynn was gracious, nice, and hospitible there would be no conflict. It can also show that inhernetly good people still sometimes do things that arent exactly right. Whats that saying.. "Some of the most evil things in the world have been done witht he best intentions".
Not to pick on you Green Cloacked Sorceror, but I don't agree with you on the Usha thing. I mean, try being married to a woman who 90% of your marriage isn't around you or even in your city. She doesnt really do anything to show that she loves you, even small things like just being there with you. I think you would rethink a lot of things and maybe seek comfort, even for a short time, somewhere else. I sometimes think people expact all these characters to be perfect and not have real life situations or flaws that happen in everyone in the world. Heck look at what Tanis did when he was with Kitiara, he didn't even tell her brothers or the rest of the companions. He was gone something like 3 days with her, while they were stuck just waiting and worrying.
In response to the first part, I don't think that people don't realize thats how they were written and thus ment to be that way, I think they just don't like them because your meant not to like that they are like that. There is a difference between a poorly wrote character you hate, and a character your meant to hate becuase he is a jerk. To site examples, I hate Kyle Katarn in Star Wars because I don't think the people who wrote his orginal storyline did a good job, because "grey" jedi do not make sense nor should they exist.(that sites the poorly wrote character) On the other hand I don't like Dalamar, because hes a douche to everyone, and is a back stabbing true dark elf, who is to never be trusted.(You are meant to not like Dalamar because of his evil acts)
I don't like evles for the second reason, I think they were wrote to not be liked as they are elitests jerks. As I believe others don't like them for the same reason, I like that they got smacked around because it shows them that it doesn't pay to be like that, thus I take pleasure in thier suffering. But I don't want them to die out because it wouldn't be the same without them, and I love it cause it leaves it open for a ton of adventureing ideas.
Now on to the part about me. I don't feel anyone picks on me about this, at all, and I want all to know I'm not mad about anyone disagreeing. I understand that her actions were used as it was good for a story. Yes in this case I DID expect Usha and Palin, to be perfect. Why? you ask? Because that was how they were wrote in Summer Flame, thats how they are wrote in Dawning of a New Age, because that she understood his love for magic, and she never showed an inkling of cheating on him, or not loving him. They were supposed to be the perfect couple, and I think that in its self is a more exciting adventure than infidelity could ever be.
What my major problem is, not with you guys, but I guess with the world in general, is not that everyone is saying it was ok for her to do it, (because very few have) its that everyone is justifying it. If people just keep justifying things like this, what kind of world do we live in, what kind of world do our characters live in? On one hand your saying bad Usha you shouldn't have done that, on the other your saying well Usha ya know you shouldn't have done it, but I guess it was ok you did because Palin wasn't around all that much. I find it more frustrating that everyone is just justifying it, then if people would have said, too bad it happened get over it. Also I wouldn't cheat on my wife, if she was gone 90% of the time during our marrage, as I married her because I loved her, not because I loved her but, ya know maybe i'll go love someone else for a while. I never read anywhere Usha sitting Palin down and saying, hey you need to stay here more, I'm tired of you galavanting around the continent trying to save us all from these giant dragons. No she sat back and let him do it. I mean I know she told him she'd like to see him more, but did she ever tell him Palin come spend more time with me or I am going to leave you.? If so then I can understand, but not entirely as she never left him, she did it behind his back. In closing, I think we live in a sad world where 80% of the people say its ok to cheat because he wasn't around. Tell that to the truck driver trying to support his wife and two kids and has to travel to make that money, see if that makes him feel any better that his wife of 30YRS, who had every chance to back out, cheated on him.
GCS
I guess I'm part of the minority since I liked the elven nations so much. I like the different ones of Silvanesti, Qualinesti, and Kagonesti. They just always stuck out to me and I thought that different aspects of each were neat. \
I don't mind people saying that the elves suck or they don't like them, but sometimes I don't think people realize that certain people, races, or things are set up in a way to convey certain thoughts. A good example of this would be Mina, most people say they hate her or such, and I think that she was set up sort of like this with her looking really young and blind. Same with Crysania to a point before she was blinded permanently. I think people look at the elves and say "geez they arent gracious, nice, and such" and not realize that they were written that way for a purpose. If everyone in Krynn was gracious, nice, and hospitible there would be no conflict. It can also show that inhernetly good people still sometimes do things that arent exactly right. Whats that saying.. "Some of the most evil things in the world have been done witht he best intentions".
I don't think anyone wants the elves to all die. I think what's represented here is that the elves are finally being "punished" for their past actions and beliefs. Without Paladine there to run interference for them, everyone else on Ansalon finally had the opportunity to stick it to them, and Taky let them. I sure as heck hope they don't die. I would like to see them broken, humble, and repenant. I would like to see them have to fight their own prejudices and rejoin the rest of the world, before things start going their way. I especially don't think that things should go back to the status quo, even if they rejoin the world. Too many bad things have happened to the elves for them to ever go back to their lives as they were.
I think that's part of what we're seeing now. Before when bad things happened, the elves could always close their borders and pretend nothing had really happened. Now they can't. Now they have to face the reality that they are just like everyone else on Ansalon and deal with it. The approach their taking now of trying to settle in the Plains of Dust is not going to work. They face a huge dilema of numbers in trying to reclaim their homes. Even if they could reclaim both homes they are forever changed.
This ties into the whole Usha and Palin thing in terms of accountability. Had the elves not left them world and instead stood by it during it's times of trouble, they might not be in this situation. Now they have to pay the piper, and he's taking a heafty toll. Just as Palin is paying the piper for leaving his wife to sit home alone for so long. Just as Usha is going to have the pay the piper for her infidelity. This just might be a product of the times we live in, that we don't see things through rose colored glass anymore. Now as adults (and some seniors) we see that in the real world that bad choices have consequences and that is being seen in the new writers of this age.
I dunno that's just a few of my thoughts on the matter.
The elves are a race in decline at best. Unless something miraculous happens they'll be gone or scattered to the wind in less than 3 or 4 human generations. They'll become the charity race of Ansalon, hanging out in ruins with the Gully Dwarves. Wouldn't that be a hoot! They've no one to blame but themselves though. Even though Taky orchistrated the events, she wouldn't have been nearly as successful had they not alienated every single other race on the continent. The last time they came out to fight with the other races was during the Age of Dreams, when they joined with the barbarian humans to overthrow their ogre masters. Right after that they headed for the woods and didn't come out until the WoS. You can't really count the end of the WoS either, by then it was too, little too late.
What about the Whitestone Council in the War of the Lance? They also helped Vinas Solamnus in his revolt against Ergoth.
What about the Whitestone Council in the War of the Lance?
What about it? There's no indication the elves did anything but attend the Council. I don't recall them ever lending any of their forces in any of the fighting.
They also helped Vinas Solamnus in his revolt against Ergoth.
Um, since when? How?
What about it? There's no indication the elves did anything but attend the Council. I don't recall them ever lending any of their forces in any of the fighting.
What forces? How could a population of 87,000 even take any part in the fighting. In the entire trilogy, there was only one instance of elves in battle, and there were only 20 of them.
Many peoples need to give consideration to exactly who will be replacing the elves in their old homelands. It's a toss-up which is worse: a continental minotaur empire or a KoN/Goblinoid mix. Neither is very appealing and people who live in Southern Ansalon are likely to be unethusiastic about either.
Palin Majere will likely take up diplomacy on behalf of the elves if for no reason other than that the undesirable element currently living in Qualinesti is a potential long-term problem for Solace.
On a side-note, Coryn does not have super powers like a Chosen of Mystra. What was being depicted in Wizard's Conclave was the experience of someone undergoing Epiphany and trading in Sorceror for Wizard.
There are, potentially, a great many elves that could fit that category and they would make prime recruits for the Orders of High Sorcery. Remember that the Orders never hesitated to recruit renegades that were willing to play by the rules. The White Robes in particular have a vested interest in making sure the elves don't go the way of sorcery, as elves from both nations have historically made up a large chunk of the White Robes. Remember that elves continued to practice magic readily even during those periods of history (like during the Age of Despair) when humans were strongly distrustful of wizards. Culturally they are more inclined towards magic than humans or dwarves and I don't think that fact is lost on the Wizards now that they need to grow their ranks. Converting any elven sorcerors to wizardry would be a high priority.
But what's happening here is sort of what Paladine/Valthonis alluded to at the end of Dragons of a Vanished Moon: the elves are going through a great trial, but it may forge them into one nation, something they resisted when it was a voluntary option.
Even so, the half-elf population of Ansalon will be going through the roof shortly.
Quote:
They also helped Vinas Solamnus in his revolt against Ergoth.
Unquote
Um, since when? How?
DLCS p.202 "1773 PC... Solamnus leads a group of knights, dwarves, and elves to Bright Horizon, bringing law to the lawless. Bright Horizon is renamed Palanthas."
ToHS also states. (p.98) "With help from the dwarves and elves, the Knights of Solamnia drove out the miscreants and rebuilt the entire city."
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnposner
What about the Whitestone Council in the War of the Lance?
Unquote
What about it? There's no indication the elves did anything but attend the Council. I don't recall them ever lending any of their forces in any of the fighting.
Since the purpose of the Council was to forge an alliance between the elves, dwarves and humans, there would not be much point in them attending unless they were going to fight alongside the other races.
Page 104 of Dragonlance Adventures (1987) states "352 Whitestone Council...Here an uneasy alliance is forged between the elves and humans....Gunthar Uth Wistan and Laurana of Qualinesti lead armies of men, elves and dwarves against the evil Dragonarmies."
The knights will likely have their hands full given the massive problems hinted at in the upcoming Rise of Solamnia trilogy. I foresee the Knights helping the elves only if they are directly threatend by the minotaurs, an unlikely event given all the territory the minotaurs have yet to conquer.
I would think it is pretty obvious that the minotaurs' next target will be Sanction, which is held by the Solamnic Knights.
DLCS p.202 "1773 PC... Solamnus leads a group of knights, dwarves, and elves to Bright Horizon, bringing law to the lawless. Bright Horizon is renamed Palanthas."
ToHS also states. (p.98) "With help from the dwarves and elves, the Knights of Solamnia drove out the miscreants and rebuilt the entire city."
That doesn't show the elves helping Solamnus in his revolt against Ergoth.
DLCS p. 201:
1799 - 1791 PC: Rose rebellion and Fall of Ergoth
The Emperor grants (the eastern provinces (i.e. Solamnia)) independence.
The conquest of Bright Horizon occurred after the revolt of Ergoth was long over, a good 18 years after Solamnia was independent. All the entry you cited shows is that the elves helped the Knights and dwarves crush some piddly pirate stronghold.
Since the purpose of the Council was to forge an alliance between the elves, dwarves and humans, there would not be much point in them attending unless they were going to fight alongside the other races.
Page 104 of Dragonlance Adventures (1987) states "352 Whitestone Council...Here an uneasy alliance is forged between the elves and humans....Gunthar Uth Wistan and Laurana of Qualinesti lead armies of men, elves and dwarves against the evil Dragonarmies."
The WotL states that the Qualinesti devote approx 1100 troops to the war after the battle at the High Clerists Tower. Basically, the elves hop on board after the war turns to the favor of the Solamnics. Shows a whole lot of character there. The Silvanesti do not send any troops, and to top it off, the Silvanesti leaders are displeased when any Silvanesti join of their own volition.
The dwarves of Kayolin howerver, have been supporting the Solamnics since the war started. The dwarves of Thorbardin do not join until after the High Clerists Tower due to the new Thane has to consolidate and unite his people. No sooner does he do that, than he throws the might of the dwarves in with the Solmanics.
That says a lot about the differences between the two races. One stands by it allies the other is only willing to help if it looks like they're on the winning side.
Since the purpose of the Council was to forge an alliance between the elves, dwarves and humans, there would not be much point in them attending unless they were going to fight alongside the other races.
Page 104 of Dragonlance Adventures (1987) states "352 Whitestone Council...Here an uneasy alliance is forged between the elves and humans....Gunthar Uth Wistan and Laurana of Qualinesti lead armies of men, elves and dwarves against the evil Dragonarmies."
What Koranith said.
I would think it is pretty obvious that the minotaurs' next target will be Sanction, which is held by the Solamnic Knights.
There is the little matter of Khur being in the way, not to mention Neraka.
Hmm...now that would be an interesting concept, seeing the Nerakan and Solamnic knights teaming up to fend off a massive minotaur incursion.
Been there, done that.
The whole "uniting to defeat a common enemy" thing is soooo overdone. Can we please come up with a different premise?!?!?There is the little matter of Khur being in the way, not to mention Neraka.
That and Sable's got that whole swamp thing happening. Who knows she/he might want to start experimenting with Minotaurs should they happen too close to her lands.
There is the little matter of Khur being in the way, not to mention Neraka.
Since the minotaurs have an alliance with the ogres of Blode, they have only to march north through Blode from Silvanesti to reach Sanction.
Maybe that will be the final help that the elves are searching for...
I think that never as now the elfes had been in danger, but infact the key of destiny is very important for the future of the elfs, it is an "object" from the FAR past of the elves!
Hmmm.... maybe they could sunder a piece of Ansalon with magic and create a new homeland far away from the troubles of the continent, at least until their numbers recover. Well, maybe not sunder (it's been done, anyway), but find a good sized land-mass somewhere, maybe even relocate to Taladas. Would this be possible?
They could take Southern Ergoth, assuming they could learn to live together and with the Kagonesti. There are already two elven colonies, Qualimori and Silvamori on the island. All they need to do is get rid of Gellidius.
All they need to do is get rid of Gellidius.
My PCs are working on it. No need to fret, friend elves, you shall have a new Icy Cool homeland in no time.
-TRRW
Hmmm.... maybe they could sunder a piece of Ansalon with magic and create a new homeland far away from the troubles of the continent, at least until their numbers recover.
Yeah, and they could name it Evermeet! ;)
Then, we use the workable gnomish technology to launch a war on the Dwarves and Plainsmen. Conquering Ansalon from Ergoth to the Desolation, Solamnia to Icereach. Then, on to Taladas.
...
Or, they could just, ya know, move into the human occupied areas and live in peace with other races... without the whole "living apart in our woodses" thing.
-TRRW
Since the minotaurs have an alliance with the ogres of Blode, they have only to march north through Blode from Silvanesti to reach Sanction.
True, if the alliance holds. I guess we'll find out once book 3 of the Minotaur trilogy comes out.
They could take Southern Ergoth, assuming they could learn to live together and with the Kagonesti. There are already two elven colonies, Qualimori and Silvamori on the island. All they need to do is get rid of Gellidius.
There's also the small matter of the Solamnic Knights occupying the western third of the island and the ogres and thanoi occupying the interior.
Yeah, and they could name it Evermeet! ;)
That was the joke.
Also, I doubt that after all that's happened to them, that they would return to the extreme isolationism that they were before. They would have to, since when they did recover, they would be making moves to take back Qualinesti and Silvanesti, assuming these forests haven't been chopped down, or burned by a third cataclysm.
That was the joke.
Also, I doubt that after all that's happened to them, that they would return to the extreme isolationism that they were before. They would have to, since when they did recover, they would be making moves to take back Qualinesti and Silvanesti, assuming these forests haven't been chopped down, or burned by a third cataclysm.
Yeah, I know. I caught that ;)
More than likely the elves will unite as one people and start a new nation. My vote is that it will be Silvanost(sp?). They will join together to push the minotaurs back arcross the sea.
I have another quick question that I am not sure has been answered about the elves of Ansalon. Without a homeland does it mean anything to be considered a dark elf now?
Depends on how you look at it. In practical terms your friends and family could still effectively disown you and refuse to have any further contact with you. Beyond that the other historical penalty of being a dark elf (i.e. exile from the homeland) is meaningless since all of your peers are also exiles.
As for Southern Ergoth, the Knights probably don't have a strong attachment to the place considering the more pressing need to reclaim their former continental possessions. The Thanoi would find the place less appealing if the temperature went back up. The ogres would be a problem, but could they be more of a problem than the minotaurs in Silvanesti? I seriously doubt it.
As for Southern Ergoth, the Knights probably don't have a strong attachment to the place considering the more pressing need to reclaim their former continental possessions.
Well, I'd imagine they'd be somewhat attached to the place given it's got Huma's Tomb and all. ;)
The Thanoi would find the place less appealing if the temperature went back up. The ogres would be a problem, but could they be more of a problem than the minotaurs in Silvanesti? I seriously doubt it.
If the ogres remained ogres, then true. But next thing you know mayhaps some ogre titans will "arise" from their ranks ... then that would be a problem equal to if not greater than the minotaurs in Silvanesti.
I thought that Gerard from the War of Souls was going to be insisting that the knights of Solamnia help the elves out but in a recent book it was relayed that he had left the Knights. Why is that?
What book was that in?
Poor elves they are really in trouble and it doesnt seem that they have many friends who want to help them out.
I thought that Gerard from the War of Souls was going to be insisting that the knights of Solamnia help the elves out but in a recent book it was relayed that he had left the Knights. Why is that?
Ah Amaron, a very good question!!!! WOW I AM IMPRESSED!!!! Well to answer it, I don't know yet. Sorry, But I can assure you i baratted Maragret about this and questioned her a thousand different ways as to why this is. The best I could get out of her is that it will be explained in other stories. I answered back with a resounding WHAT THE CRAP! So from this point on I dislike Gerard, and here by find him to be THE MOST worthless Knight of Solamnia EVER, as he gave up in under a year. You ask me thats a pretty said effort. Thanks I have been meaning to have a reason to post this info!
GCS
And also Yes it was part of the original future!
Gerard left the knighthood?
What book was that in?
Amber and Ashes my good friend Amber and Ashes!
GCS
The WotL states that the Qualinesti devote approx 1100 troops to the war after the battle at the High Clerists Tower. Basically, the elves hop on board after the war turns to the favor of the Solamnics. Shows a whole lot of character there. The Silvanesti do not send any troops, and to top it off, the Silvanesti leaders are displeased when any Silvanesti join of their own volition.
The dwarves of Kayolin howerver, have been supporting the Solamnics since the war started. The dwarves of Thorbardin do not join until after the High Clerists Tower due to the new Thane has to consolidate and unite his people. No sooner does he do that, than he throws the might of the dwarves in with the Solmanics.
That says a lot about the differences between the two races. One stands by it allies the other is only willing to help if it looks like they're on the winning side.
The elves also helped in the forging of the new dragonlances.
Well, I'd imagine they'd be somewhat attached to the place given it's got Huma's Tomb and all. ;)
If the ogres remained ogres, then true. But next thing you know mayhaps some ogre titans will "arise" from their ranks ... then that would be a problem equal to if not greater than the minotaurs in Silvanesti.
And Christians are attached to Jerusalem because of it's religious significance but very few these days are bothering to try and own it. The Knights got along happily without knowing where the tomb was for ages and as long as they weren't denied all access to it I doubt they'd consider it worth trying to gain absolute control over Southern Ergoth just to stake a claim to it. Not when they've lost their former capital and much of their old homeland on Ansalon.
I'll be curious to see about any Ogre Titans, although they very quickly could become overused and trite. Even so, the most powerful Titans still do not make up for the stupidty of the average Orge. And Titans are too likely to fall into infighting if they get too numerous, just like the Ogres of old. Evil always turns in upon itself remember?
And Christians are attached to Jerusalem because of it's religious significance but very few these days are bothering to try and own it. The Knights got along happily without knowing where the tomb was for ages and as long as they weren't denied all access to it I doubt they'd consider it worth trying to gain absolute control over Southern Ergoth just to stake a claim to it. Not when they've lost their former capital and much of their old homeland on Ansalon.
"These" days being modern times, right? Well Dragonlance is perpetually stuck in the medieval ages. In the medieval ages, the Christians mounted multiple bloody crusades because of their attachment to Jerusalem.
The very establishment of a new elven homeland in Southern Ergoth assumes non-access to Huma's site by non-elves. The elves have always been highly territorial, and if they were to claim Southern Ergoth as their new home it would not be a shared home, they would wish to deny non-elves the very ability to visit their shores, much less the interior wherein Huma's tomb is located. This is assuming the elves stay true to form and remain the isolationist xenophobic people they've always been. If so, it's doubtful they would prove powerful enough to oust the Solamnics from the Eastwatch lands ... not without unacceptable losses anyway.
I'll be curious to see about any Ogre Titans, although they very quickly could become overused and trite. Even so, the most powerful Titans still do not make up for the stupidty of the average Orge. And Titans are too likely to fall into infighting if they get too numerous, just like the Ogres of old. Evil always turns in upon itself remember?
The elves would not have an easy time with the ogres. Their numbers are low and their birthrate is bare minimum. Ogres may be dumb, but they've got the numbers. The elves may hold the advantage in the forests but they are out of their element in the mountains of Southern Ergoth where so many of the ogres make their homes. Even if it was just ogres they had to contend with, it may prove too much for the already beleagured elves. The loss of even a few hundred elves at this point is a monumental loss for a race that at this point has already lost thousands if not tens of thousands due to the calamities of the past seventy plus years. Throw in the ogre titans and the elven picture looks even grimmer. Sure they'll turn in on themselves ... eventually. But by then it may prove too late for the elves.
So you think that there might be a chance that the Qualanesti and the Silvanesti might reunite under a unified kingdom? Wasnt that apart of the divergent or the future that was supposed to happen that Tas saw?
Actually, that was the "real" future until Taky stole the world. This is the divergent history.
The fate of one is shared by all!
I think that they forget that it was an elf who saved the High Clerists Tower, with the help of a kender handler. It was an elf that was their Golden General. Some gratitude they have dont they>?
It's true, Laurana was the Golden General that led the Solmanics after STURM had sacrificed himself to buy them time, she didn't save the High Clerists Tower, she only rallied the troops post battle and then led them until her capture. It's not like she had a whole lot of choice in the matter. It was either accept "washisnames" offer to become general or Sturm would have had no alibi for his accusations against Derek. That and she would have been humlimated by going home to daddy, after having run away after some bastard half-elf.
There's also the small matter of the Solamnic Knights occupying the western third of the island and the ogres and thanoi occupying the interior.
The Solamnic Knights are not "occupying" the western third of the island, which is largely desolate except for Silvamori and Qualimori; they merely have outposts at Castle Eastwatch and the Tomb of Huma.
Nooooo. They have to go and get Silvanesti now, before the minotaurs are too established in there to be able to get them out at all. About too many of them being there, only more will come as time goes by.
The elves will probably be too busy argueing amongst each other and blaming humans to go out and get Silvanesti back. I guess that is why I dislike Dragonlance elves so much; they act too much like people in real life.
~~~
Yeah, and they could name it Evermeet! ;)
LoL! Priceless. And perhaps we could also have Danilo Thann fall in love with one of the elves half-elven daughter just to complete the transition to Forgotten Realms.
~~~
The Solamnic Knights are not "occupying" the western third of the island, which is largely desolate except for Silvamori and Qualimori; they merely have outposts at Castle Eastwatch and the Tomb of Huma.
Sure they are. Silvamori and Qualimori are not in the western third of the island, they're in the south. Since when is the western third of S. Ergoth largely desolate? Last I checked there are 7 towns/villages big enough to make it on the Ansalon map and shown clustered in and around Eastwatch. Five of these towns/villages are even linked by a road, the only road on the entire island. That hardly fits the depiction of a "largely desolate" area.
LoL! Priceless. And perhaps we could also have Danilo Thann fall in love with one of the elves half-elven daughter just to complete the transition to Forgotten Realms.
~~~
Bad LordofIllusions, no pie for you! That comment deserves a hand slap.
Keep the realms out of my Dragonlance!!
Anyway, what are the populations of Qualimori and Silvamori?
Geez, the joke wasn't supposed to linger guys.
Anyway, what are the populations of Qualimori and Silvamori?
Post-War of Souls:
Qualimori: Large town (2,973)
Silvamori: Large town (4,549)
I would imagine that if the elves were to go to war and reclaim their land or conquer a new land, if at all, the authors of Dragonlance would probably make some sort of elven Napoleon or Alexander to lead them.
A combined population of 7500? There's really no chance is there?
I would imagine that if the elves were to go to war and reclaim their land or conquer a new land, if at all, the authors of Dragonlance would probably make some sort of elven Napoleon or Alexander to lead them.
Before the War of Souls I would have pegged Laurana as just such a heroine ... but now of course that's not likely. The only other elf I can think of that might be a tactical genius would be The Lioness, maybe. Or perhaps we'll see Porthios return from wherever he's been lollygagging all this time.
Now maybe the time for Porthios Kanan to regain his leadership of the elves. What ever happened to Alhana? Did she hand control over to Gilthas?
Yep. At the end of the War of Souls Alhana was given the chance by her people (the Silvanesti) to become their leader ... but she declined and pointed them towards Lipshitz ... erm Gilthas.
Sure they are. Silvamori and Qualimori are not in the western third of the island, they're in the south. Since when is the western third of S. Ergoth largely desolate? Last I checked there are 7 towns/villages big enough to make it on the Ansalon map and shown clustered in and around Eastwatch. Five of these towns/villages are even linked by a road, the only road on the entire island. That hardly fits the depiction of a "largely desolate" area.
Silvamori and and Qualimori are indeed in the south, but also well towards the west of the island. Besides, what evidence have you that the Solamnic Knights control anything but Eastwatch and the Tomb of Huma?
Silvamori and and Qualimori are indeed in the south, but also well towards the west of the island. Besides, what evidence have you that the Solamnic Knights control anything but Eastwatch and the Tomb of Huma?
So they're in the southwest, and we're both right.
As for evidence of Solamnic control: p. 122 of the Silver Anniversay edition of the Dragonlance Classics, which was an update of the classic adventures DL 1-15.
The Land of Eastwatch
North of Dragon Mountain lies a land untouched by the tread of the dragonarmies. Here, in this peaceful, tranquil land, ancient roads of packed earth link small, scattered settlements. Like Abanasinia, the region's large cities perished in the Cataclysm; their ruins dot the foothills.
[i]n the wake of the Cataclysm, a band of Solamnic Knights and the pitiful remnants of the Imperial Legions joined together to defend Eastwatch from ravaging ogres. United once again, Solamnians and Ergothians drove back the forces of Evil at the Lastgaard mountains. Solamnic knights have ruled and protected these fertile lands ever since.
Seems pretty clear cut to me that they do not just control the Vale and Castle Eastwatch.
And where are Gilthanas and Porthios during all this?
I heard Gilthanas was going up against Gellidus, who is apparently making an appearance in the Key of Destiny module series...hmm, does that mean a cameo from Gilthanas, too?
I imagine elves would be rushing to join the reformed Orders of High Sorcery - they may think it offers them safety in numbers, and a place to have a community now that they have no land to call their own.
And where are Gilthanas and Porthios during all this?
I heard Gilthanas was going up against Gellidus, who is apparently making an appearance in the Key of Destiny module series...hmm, does that mean a cameo from Gilthanas, too?
Porthios was missing for a while, but now there are rumors that he's been found in the west and that he's suffered some sort of terrible injury. Alhana is reputedly searching for him now.
Gilthanas ... hmm, last we saw of him was back in the early 30s SC when he went off with Silvara to work out their relationship (or lack thereof).
So basically, while their country was being demolished they were no-shows. ;) So far as we know.
Well I think they were more thinking... this world needs more drama, or people won't read it. I admit there are things in the world that have more than angered me... mostly Usha cheating on Palin.... that (Beep beep beep beep beep) grr I used to love Usha till she did that... or Palin turnin into a douche. Its not that they want to destroy the world, they just know that no one will read it if everyone is happy for the whole book, which I personally would like a happy Palin Usha relationship, but that will never happen now that Usha decided to go out a cheat on poor cripple boy Palin. As to your question...
GCS
I must have missed something. What novel does Usha cheat on Palin?
I must have missed something. What novel does Usha cheat on Palin?
Prisoners of Haven.
Some elves could find a place amoung Kalaman's various arts and crafts guilds.
According to the maps in the DLCS there is a large forest around the Tower of High Sorcery in Nightlund, why can't the elves build a new nation there? The perpetual twilight that covered the whole region caused most of the people to leave during the first decades of the Age of Mortals. Now its sunny skies again and the Nightlund is wide open with oppertunities.
Some elves could find a place amoung Kalaman's various arts and crafts guilds.
ToHS describes the cypress trees surrounding the Tower of Nightlund as being part of that tower's new protective grove. The trees in this grove sap living creatures' strength until they collapse helpless. I'm not sure exactly how large this grove may be, but if it's anything like the grove surrounding Wayreth that'd be a good enough reason for the elves not to settle there.
So the Shoikan Oak grove is no more?
I think it was left behind in Palanthas, wasn't it? I'm unsure about that, but it's certainly no longer around the tower in Nightlund.
Cheers,
Cam
Prisoners of Haven.
May I ask what the circumstances of it are?
So the Shoikan Oak grove is no more?
It's still in place in Palanthas, except that now it only guards a pool of black rock where the Tower used to be.
May I ask what the circumstances of it are?
I'd tell you, but I haven't read the book myself. The only reason I know about it is because of a distrubing lack of *spoiler* space in some threads.
Their bestchance of reunification probably is Southern Ergoth, and I certainly don't see the Solamnics challenging them for it. If anything a little diplomacy could get Southern Ergoth ceded to the elves in exchange for free access to the Tomb of Huma and a renewed alliance between the elves and the Knights.
One thing for certain, though, is that this entire proceeding is likely to lessen the elves' fame for being haughty bastards. They'll still be a little arrogant, after all they are elves, but isolationism should be no more.
The grove should have moved with the Tower, Is the information on the new grove in the Towers of High Sorcery book? I dont recall!
Yes.
One thing for certain, though, is that this entire proceeding is likely to lessen the elves' fame for being haughty bastards. They'll still be a little arrogant, after all they are elves, but isolationism should be no more.
In keeping with that lack of isolation, the elves should share Southern Ergoth with the Knights.
I don't think the Cataclysm is a factor anymore but more recent problems.
After all the Qualinesti are Dark Knight collaborators
The Silvastani shut themselves off with their shield (humans think this insulting)
They broke their promise to Riverwind's people
Thus the average human doesn't even KNOW anything about elves other than they lived under a shield and they helped the dragons. They have stories of elves fighting the Dark Queen and so forth but the gods are coming back to a world along with the elves that doesn't really remember them just like before.
Its gotta be disconcerting to discover their reputation isn't one of a race of good at all...at least in the WotL they were a race of good, just a haughty and arrogantly isolationistic one. Not cowards that buckled at the first sign of dragon pressure.
I don't think the Qualinesti would have done much different though, had they been give the opportunity. Instead, they got to live under the boot of the Dark Knights and Beryl for forty or so years. While I think for them that's the worst thing that they could have them, it was nothing even close for what Taky had in store for them.
Are the elves getting what they deserve? Most certainly. Do they deserve to be wiped off the face of Ansalon. No. Just right now they are paying for all the bad blood and bridges they burned in the past. I would love to see them united, perhaps not under Gilthas and definately not under Alhana, and either reclaim Sivanesti or a new homeland. I like the new homeland idea better, that way they would be forced to count on the other races as allies, while they build a new nation, and not just buffer zones (ie Eastern Bloc countries) as they have in the past.
I feel pretty bad for the elves. They dont have a homeland or anything and they are going to be persectuted by so many people. I wonder if this might be the end of the elves as we know them?
I bet there were quite a few races back before the Cataclysm that believed they were done for as they watched helplessly the Kingpriest helped by the elves "cleanse" their world for the greater good ...
As far as I am concerned, it's payback time now. Let them live in the mud for a few hundred years. That ought to teach them a thing or two
I doubt they'll disappear for good though. As favored of the gods of Good, you can be sure Mishakal or another deity with step in if they truly faced oblivion.
Actually, the plainsmen in the Plains of Dust are led by Wanderer, Riverwind's son.
Riverwind's people are still in Abanansia, led by Riverwind's daughter Moonsong.
They also helped Vinas Solamnus in his revolt against Ergoth.
Unquote
Um, since when? How?
See the novel Vinas Solamnus (1997) pp 272-3
"And Vinas' second has marshalled a company of elven archers and dwarven sappers to break the Swordsheath scroll and join the march on our city[Daltigoth]."
Maybe Silvanesti and Qualanesti will rise from the ashes and become a united elven kingdom? We can only hope.
Quote:
They also helped Vinas Solamnus in his revolt against Ergoth.
Unquote
See the novel Vinas Solamnus (1997) pp 272-3
"And Vinas' second has marshalled a company of elven archers and dwarven sappers to break the Swordsheath scroll and join the march on our city[Daltigoth]."
Wow. A company of elven archers 2,200 years ago. Impressive. I can't imagine how Vinas ever managed without the elves. This "token" elf archer force was about as effective as the Qualinesti contribution to the War of the Lance ... too little, too late.
I dont think that the elves deserve what they have gotten. Poor things, they are the favored of the gods of good and they know it. Not everyone else does however.
Maybe Silvanesti and Qualanesti will rise from the ashes and become a united elven kingdom? We can only hope.
Bah Humbug. The elves have had this coming for millenia. They're finally paying the price for their arrogance and condescension. Where's your pride now that your children and spouse are near starving? How arrogant can you be when you live in squalor and subsist on the handouts granted you by the so-called lesser races?
Bah Humbug. The elves have had this coming for millenia. They're finally paying the price for their arrogance and condescension. Where's your pride now that your children and spouse are near starving? How arrogant can you be when you live in squalor and subsist on the handouts granted you by the so-called lesser races?
Iltharanos, I take it that you do not like elves? Were they unkind to you when you were growing up?
I dont think that the elves deserve what they have gotten. Poor things, they are the favored of the gods of good and they know it. Not everyone else does however.
Maybe Silvanesti and Qualanesti will rise from the ashes and become a united elven kingdom? We can only hope.
Personally, I think the elves should find a new home...far far away from Ansalon. Some remote island where they can be removed from the "lesser races", those not so favored by the gods of good. The only problem then would be that they'd have no one to gloat or condecend over. The Solamincs should grant them a small token peice of forest somewhere, and then levy a tax on them. After all they did send a whole company to help Vinas during the revolt.
Iltharanos, I take it that you do not like elves? Were they unkind to you when you were growing up?
*points to all his previous posts in this thread for why he does not like elves*
The Solamincs should grant them a small token peice of forest somewhere, and then levy a tax on them. After all they did send a whole company to help Vinas during the revolt.
~~~
I really do not feel like scrolling through 5 pages of posting to try to find it so can someone that has spent a good amount of time on this thread inform me as to what is going on with the Kagonesti elves ?
~~~
Not much, other than being ground under the heel of their Qualinesti and Silvanesti cousins in Southern Ergoth for the past 70 years or so, at least with those that have remained in Southern Ergoth. The rest have fled to isolated areas like the isle of Cristyne.
Not much, other than being ground under the heel of their Qualinesti and Silvanesti cousins in Southern Ergoth for the past 70 years or so, at least with those that have remained in Southern Ergoth. The rest have fled to isolated areas like the isle of Cristyne.
Iltharanos to the rescue. Thank you.
~~~
Iltharanos to the rescue. Thank you.
~~~
No prob.
