A quick glance through the Monster Manual brought these to mind:
Ettercaps
Dopplegangers
Kuo-Toans
I am inclined to go with the Dopplegangers myself. Do any of you use doppelgangers in your own games?
Dopplegangers would fit very well, by description and they are Intelligent race. But...Dopplegangers were created by a wizard, and it would make no sense to create a race and then to let it kill someone.
Kuo-Toans seem to be interesting, although I don't know if the description would fit. But AFAIK the cleansing wars started during the Green Age and the seas had been of water, so it would make sense to assign someone to get rid of this "sea-controlling" breed. Maybe this is gives another reason why the Silt Sea now is a sea of silt...
BTW did he/she succeed or faild his mission?
On page 6 of her Notes, she writes down the list of Champions, their names and race to kill. You can see she had problems receiving good intel from TSR because its all screwed-up. Pennarin is not in there, which means she created him as she wrote the novel itself (she also corrected her information as she wrote, because some of the errors visible in her notes are not present in the novel).
But the list she gives does show what races she thought would have been eradicated on Athas, besides those we know: Sprites (she lists Pixies as another race to be eradicated as well), Centaurs, Minotaurs.
For simplicity's sake, and the fact that the eradication was in the south, the home of the fey, I would say Sprites were Pennarin's race to eradicate. Now sprites in the MM are a family of fey that contains pixies, grig and nixies. But in DS we could actually make sprites a race on their own, sort of brothers to the pixies. Especially since both races are now extinct, we don't need to dabble in the mess of contradicting the MM.
Especially since both races are now extinct, we don't need to dabble in the mess of contradicting the MM.
Oops, I see how it could have been misinterpreted.
By 'contradicting', I meant using Pixies and Sprites as two races, even though the MM says Sprites are not a race but a family of monsters, and even worst, that that family contains the Pixies.
I had already determined that Mrs. Abbey created Pennarin to replace Kalak as First Champion.
Kalak as 1st Champion? Check again: Sacha is 1st, Kalak is 2nd.
The bit about "replacing Kalak" I don't understand. Care to elaborate?
Yeah, there are more Champions than those listed in The Wanderer's Chronicle. Pennarin is one of them.
I personally wouldn't choose kuo-toans, because, well, frog-heads are lame. The lizard-man's only redeeming qualities is that they can live above water too and that they don't look fishy or froggy. Call it fish-hate, or mammalian-superiority or angel-envy, but I never liked nor used aquatic fantasy humanoid races.
When I said Sprites, I based it off Abbey's Notes. Looking at all the MMs out there, I'd have to say the possibilities are...
Doppelgangers, Kuo-Toans, Locathahs, Sprites as a race, Troglodytes.
I personnaly like Doppelgangers for their coolness factor, Sprites for their southern location, and Troglodytes because they are an underground race that matches 100% the description given.
I am inclined to go with the Dopplegangers myself. Do any of you use doppelgangers in your own games?
Never, they are all extinct in my game. But a kind of offshoot, like what the half-elves are to the elves, would work for me. Eberron has just the one, a PC race called changelings.
Kalak as 1st Champion? Check again: Sacha is 1st, Kalak is 2nd. The bit about "replacing Kalak" I don't understand. Care to elaborate?
This is a partial mess-up by me. On page 223 of RaFoaDK Mrs. Abbey writes that Pennarin is the first champion. Since she got rid of Kalak I assumed she replaced him with Pennarin. Maybe she was gonna bump Sacha to second? Who knows?
I personally wouldn't choose kuo-toans..... I'd have to say the possibilities are... Doppelgangers, Kuo-Toans, Locathahs, Sprites as a race, Troglodytes.
I don't think Troglodytes have bulging eyes....MM describes them as having beady eyes. The reason I like the idea of Kuo-Toans being Pennarin's target race is because I don't like them either. If he was victorious then they would never be on Athas again.
What I understand of it is that Abbey said that Kalak was part of the numbered Champions (1 through 15+), just that he hadn't been transformed by the Pristine Tower. If that makes him underpowered compared to the others, so what? I never had a problem with that, in fact I like it better that way anyhow, makes for spicier inter-Champion relations. ;)
Nyt and I tossed this topic around abit and both of us concluded the best choice for his race to annihilate was (drumroll please..........)
dopplegangers
WHY?
1) in thinking of races with big eyes and long limbs, few races came to mind (as have been posted). Both dopplegangers and ettercap came to mind, but eventually we decided that the ettercap didn't quite have the right feel, nor the kuo-toa for that matter. Thus the dopplegangers were chosen through the process of elimination.
&
2) (note that this came later, from my own ponderings) it seemed to make sense that a tactic to combat the dopplegangers was to join in on their own game - that is to become a powerful shapechanger himself - so, no one would have a clear image of who he was. This would thus help to explain why he was so easily forgotten (and, in my thinking, replaced by Kalak - let me explain...)
In RaFoaDK Hamanu, Borys, and Sielba (3 Champions) witness the arrival of 10 other Champions, who all (with the exception of Sacha) then go on to defeat Rajaat.
Sacha, Wyan, Dregoth, Inenek, Albeorn, Gallard, Uyness, & Pinnarin are all named. That's 8 (of the 10).
That leaves two unnamed Champions in this battle - who I believe would be Keltis and Tec. I believe Daskinor's growing paranoia would have already begun, thus taking him away from the fight (although I do feel he still took part indirectly). I also see Kalid-ma as becoming increasingly distant (focusing on advancing his skill - which eventually leads to his altering of the transformation process) providing only meager help to the other Champions (maybe in the form of a special item of some kind or some such). So, that leaves only Kalak , but I'm on the boat that says he's not a champion (not in the normal sense anyway - but that's for another time) - and so I don't think he was there either (again taking the indirect path). This totals 15 Champions. In this fateful battle Pinnarin is killed by his master - Rajaat.
Coincidentally, history remembers 15 Champions - but take notice that Pinnarin is not named while Kalak is.
It is my contention that Kalak basically "stood in" for Pennarin after that Champions untimely death. By that I mean that it would be known that Rajaat had 15 Champions. With all the other 14 accounted for, and then here's this Kalak guy coming along basically getting what all the other Champions are getting (ie. a city and special powers), it would be reasonable for others to assume he is one of the 15 - and remember Pinnarin would have been a shapechanger of incredible power, so it is unlikely that his natural form was ever even known (making it that much easier for Kalak to take his place in history).
OH! and the moniker we chose for him ---- Pinnarin Doppleganger Flayer
I'd have gone with Doppleganger Death.... I know, it's tacky.
As for Squidfur's and Nyt's idea, its actually a sensible explanation, more so than those that have been proposed of late.
As for the name: Pennarin, Doppelganger Eradicator
This reminds me, what other Champions are you dying to see come to life?:
Jihun-Nish's own, and one I like: Barien, Mind Flayer Desiccator (disceased)
List:
Mind Flayers
Doppelgangers
[...]
Through emails, Jihun-Nish suggested it might be cool that the illithids, perhaps the allithids also, had taken over Barien, a little like the Borg would have, and now he's their servant or something.
I will use it for my campain :D
Any other so far "unkown Champions" that could have existed?
And Snake Eyes rocks! If only there was a way to incorporate him into DS . . .
Ok, I would like to figure out what race the little-known Champion Pennarin was assigned to destroy. The only clue is on page 186 on RaFoaDK. It states that Pennarin fought in the south against a long-armed, big-eyed race. Does anyone know what this race may be or have any suggestions about an appropriate race that fits this describtion?
Might be a race that never made it into fruition...
I'm already into the 2nd book of the Barsoon series (Gods of Mars) and there is a plant race that fits that exact description, except that they only have one eye.
So either Lynn got it from that, or from notes Troy/Tim/et al had laying around and hadn't quite put into the light yet.
When I said Sprites, I based it off Abbey's Notes. Looking at all the MMs out there, I'd have to say the possibilities are...
Doppelgangers, Kuo-Toans, Locathahs, Sprites as a race, Troglodytes.
Plus trogs are just damn cool, have always liked them.
I think it should be trogs too, though dopplegangers would fit as well, just trying to make them less of a magical created race is the trick IMO.
Yeah it is. Jihun-Nish invented him for his allithids and I ported it to my illithids as well. Don't recall what happened to Barien in his allithid history, but in my history he's...well, I should just post it in another thread.
Through emails, Jihun-Nish suggested it might be cool that the illithids, perhaps the allithids also, had taken over Barien, a little like the Borg would have, and now he's their servant or something.
Speaking of the Illithids, I need to find a way to bring your notes to work, or just read them when I'm at home.
You should start a thread on this though Penn.
I was overdue for an avatar change ;)
And Snake Eyes rocks! If only there was a way to incorporate him into DS . . .
Yo Joe!
Yeah, that was my favorite G.I. Joe character too.
Speaking of the Illithids, I need to find a way to bring your notes to work, or just read them when I'm at home.
I left you the cd of all my stuff. That specific stuff is in Dark Sun/Illithid Web-Project. ;)
You should start a thread on this though Penn.
What, posting the rest of my stuff, so that others can comment on what they want to see in it?
That could be enlightening, and possibly fruitful. Although sometimes the thread turns into a fest on some unrelated subject; hate when that happens.
I left you the cd of all my stuff. That specific stuff is in Dark Sun/Illithid Web-Project. ;) [/b]
Forgot they were on that CD, will definately have to bring that to work then.
That could be enlightening, and possibly fruitful. Although sometimes the thread turns into a fest on some unrelated subject; hate when that happens.[
Kinda like what we are doing now? LOL
I think it should be trogs too, though dopplegangers would fit as well, just trying to make them less of a magical created race is the trick IMO.
I would like to say that on Athas, all races are magically created save Thri-kreen and Rhulisti. If a race could be created that resembles all other races (pyreen) then I would think a race could be created that can become the other races. (at least in part)
Kinda like what we are doing now? LOL
Whaaa...yeah!
Curys9a's question on Pennarin seemed to have been answered to the fullest extend of the people's knowledge of him. Only a few bothered to flesh him out, even if just in their heads. Basically the thread was nearing the end of its shelf life.
I tried shifting the discussion to new Champions besides Pennarin. Not much there.
I would like to say that on Athas, all races are magically created save Thri-kreen and Rhulisti.[/b]
Nitpick, nitpick.
I don't want to see another Half Giant though, i.e. a race created by a wizard for whatever means.
Now if we say it came from the Pristine Tower and isn't some race that was created by some mad wizard for whatever means, then that's fine, but then you're contradicting the MM.
If a race could be created that resembles all other races (pyreen) then I would think a race could be created that can become the other races. (at least in part)
Except that the pyreen were created by rhulisti thanks to the pristine tower, not by some mad wizard that wanted them for a specific purpose.
Totally different scale there.
Plus trogs are just damn cool, have always liked them.
They are cool little crawlers, and their 3E pic is just flattering.
I think it should be trogs too, though dopplegangers would fit as well, just trying to make them less of a magical created race is the trick IMO.
In the end, I do prefer dopples. Just have to find a way to make them athasian, not a direct D&D port to DS.
I give up!I'll settle on Troglodytes. So.... Did Pennarin succeed or fail?
In the end, I do prefer dopples. Just have to find a way to make them athasian, not a direct D&D port to DS.
Nevermind! I don't give up! Can anyone say Athasian Doppelgangers? :heehee
I tried shifting the discussion to new Champions besides Pennarin. Not much there.
I'm pretty much good with sticking with the 15, saying that all there was, and going with the planet is pretty much dead at this point.
Unless of course you try to make it to the North Pole region, and who knows what's there. I seriously doubt it will be a mirror of what's in the southern pole region though and think it's too easy to just chalk it up to other champions.
I seriously doubt it will be a mirror of what's in the southern pole region though and think it's too easy to just chalk it up to other champions.
I think there is a lush paradise up there. Surrounded by a sea of the Brown Tide!
Eric: Were there other "Champions" that Rajaat made which have not been "documented"?
Troy: Certainly. But even I don't know who.
People in doubt as to weither there exist, or could exist, other Champions of Rajaat than those presented in the Boxed Set, then read this gem from a 2001 interview with Troy Denning:
For those of us who have created our own Champions, this reply is equivalent to a kid being handed the keys to a candy store. :D